Guild Wars 2

Silver.8023:

Reven.6750:

Where a warrior has a cripple, a guardian has the ability to root the target in place.

I disagree with this entirely. Warriors also have the ability to hold targets in place.
Warrior – Six cripple weapon skills.
Guardian – Two cripple skills, one on an elite tome and the other a downed underwater skill

Warrior – Four immobilise skills across weapons and utilities in addition to the Leg Specialist trait if they take it, which would bring it up to five.
Guardian – Three immobilise skills. One of which is a slow moving projectile dealy and another a condition damage signet….

So really, we aren’t anywhere near equal footing in regard to snares. This is also ignoring the fact that Warriors also have much easier access to swiftness and have a couple more gap closers.

Yes we have wards, which I quite like, however, they aren’t reliable and I would trade them in a heartbeat for reliable snares. They only last around 6 seconds, have a large cooldown and stability renders them useless. Cripples on Warrior weapons have a good uptime with reasonably short cooldowns and when they’re on cooldown, they can also throw out some immobilises. Stability isn’t going to do anything against those.

I also play a Warrior and I can’t think of a Warrior weapon that feels as broken as say Guardian’s torch, scepter or sword (to a lesser extent, staff). In fact, I’d say all the Warrior weapons work really well and are quite fun to play.

Yes, Guardians can withstand a lot of damage, yes, we can throw out a lot of boons but we can’t catch anyone easily, let alone kill them easily. We’re like party buffing punching bags.
Considering Guardian is designed to be more effective in melee range, you’d think we would have more options for maintaining that range.

What is wrong with Sword and torch? Torch is great as a DPS offhand, which is kind of what it is meant to do, Sword is a fast hitting 1h with good damage. the only thing i would say is broken about sword is that the third attack cant hit siege for some reason.

Bakitten291:

But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

Im getting confused as well, Archer seem to have the same issue regarding zealots embrace and ring of warding, they apparently miss all the time. And when i use them i seem to hit all of the time, and i play at a T1 wvw server. Might be that we use skills in different fashions and with differetn timing.

Back on topic, if you cant beat a warrior with a guardian you are doing something wrong, i play both classes and tested literally hundreds of different builds on my guardian and at least 70 different ones on my warrior and i have berserker, soldier and knights gear and accessories on my warrior and all geartypes to my guardian.

I have over 1000 thousand hours on my guardian and maybe half of that on my warrior in wvw and i can see only one build that can even compete with a guardian.

With that said i still find that warrior actually contribute more and guardians are pidgeonholed into using wall of reflection, and with WoR the guardian becomes more useful. This is especially true when it comes to a supportwarrior based on shouts, i feel more useful with that setup then with my guardian. I know this feeling is “wrong” but the fact is that guardian feel less rewarding and its that feeling Anet should adress, not that actual performance. And ofc the uselessness of zeal but that is an other thread.

But losing out versus a warrior is out of the question.

Silver.8023:

Yes, Guardians can withstand a lot of damage, yes, we can throw out a lot of boons but we can’t catch anyone easily, let alone kill them easily. We’re like party buffing punching bags.
Considering Guardian is designed to be more effective in melee range, you’d think we would have more options for maintaining that range.

This i totally agree with, as it is now all profession run in circles around us, we should have cripples at least, on moderate cd, ie it would be perfect on the swords blink and that would also have a synergie with ZD.

I don’t know if this means anything to anyone here, but I’ve never even come close to losing to a warrior. Let alone two warriors at once. I’ve also never seen a Warrior do as amazing of a job at line breaking or at tearing down any player that knows how to counter burst as everyone seems to be implying.

On the subject of their damage output in a WvW/PvP application: a DPS warrior’s (as with DPS builds of most professions) strength lies in the faults of his foes. Figure out how to counter or avoid the damage, then clean them up.

I’ve also personally seen Bash outplay numerous foes, Warriors included, with little issue. Lot of needless, baseless flaming going on here.

I really enjoy my Guardian in WvW. I don’t participate much in the huge zerg fights mostly because my computer can’t handle it, but I do roam almost constantly. When I get in a 1v1 fight I usually do very well. I struggle against perma-stealth Thieves and just about any Mesmer.

Warriors though…I really don’t have any problems with warriors. It is very easy to avoid their damage. They can’t move at all during their main damage ability and I always save a stun-break for when I see it coming. After that its pretty much just spin-to-win and smashing them with my hammer.

But I also don’t run the cookie-cutter bunker build that’s been mentioned several times in this thread.

Long story short, Warriors for me are one of the easier classes to fight.

Edit: Only issue I have with my guard is the lack of effectiveness of wards. Ring of Warding….please fix it

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

Lol burn spec, you would die instantly after you burn your meditations.

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range. Zealots Defense, will almost miss every time and wasting JI to land it, theres goes one of your heals in an attempt to land this move. Ray of Judgement is crap and will miss if not do weak damage. Shield of wraith is good. Scepter is 100% useless in sPvP or WvW PvP, the immoblize takes too long to cast and smite isn’t going to do “good” damage unless they stand in it. Torch is decent dps. Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So your build is actually worse than a cookie cutter. I applaud your attempts at theory crafting a burning build, but in reality, its quite weak.

I once again give you credit for not being able to click a single link in my sig.
A) its is not a burn spec, it is a hybrid burn spec, as in I added condition damage while inflicting minimal loss of DPS, I still have 2800 power with 1h sword, 72% crit, and 67% crit damage.
B) I play WvW, i get food, Omnomberry pie with 72% crit heals for ALOT. add in passive healing from virtue and heals from meditations, and guess what, tons of self healing while STILL burning you for 500 per tick.

I also love how you say all these skills will miss, Do warriors get an extra 10 dodges or something I don’t know about? The scepter Immobilize is actually very easy to land, and combos directly into smite, even if the immobilize is broken its still getting a few hits in. Zealots is actually VERY easy to land with JI when used correctly and knowing the timing of the wind up, Ray of judgment is used Point blank, so not sure how that is going to miss…

Will some of these moves be dodged? yes, But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

These moves, will miss because of the angle that one can do. If you do zealots defense, I can move maybe 10 feet to one side, and it will completely miss. No dodge used there. Saying smite will land is more of an exaggeration than saying someone will stand in the symbols, it never happens, and if it does then you’re not playing good players. Again you are wasting a mediation (stun breaker + a heal) just to land it. Oh and your stats are below average. You should never include food into calculating stats, because that is completely situational. You would probably do less than 3k~ crit on warrior with over 3k armor with that attack using zealots defense. Burns stack duration as well only you can only proc VoJ so often, so he only has to cure one condition (or two if immobilized). Keep trying though.

Archer.1658:

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

Lol burn spec, you would die instantly after you burn your meditations.

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range. Zealots Defense, will almost miss every time and wasting JI to land it, theres goes one of your heals in an attempt to land this move. Ray of Judgement is crap and will miss if not do weak damage. Shield of wraith is good. Scepter is 100% useless in sPvP or WvW PvP, the immoblize takes too long to cast and smite isn’t going to do “good” damage unless they stand in it. Torch is decent dps. Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So your build is actually worse than a cookie cutter. I applaud your attempts at theory crafting a burning build, but in reality, its quite weak.

I once again give you credit for not being able to click a single link in my sig.
A) its is not a burn spec, it is a hybrid burn spec, as in I added condition damage while inflicting minimal loss of DPS, I still have 2800 power with 1h sword, 72% crit, and 67% crit damage.
B) I play WvW, i get food, Omnomberry pie with 72% crit heals for ALOT. add in passive healing from virtue and heals from meditations, and guess what, tons of self healing while STILL burning you for 500 per tick.

I also love how you say all these skills will miss, Do warriors get an extra 10 dodges or something I don’t know about? The scepter Immobilize is actually very easy to land, and combos directly into smite, even if the immobilize is broken its still getting a few hits in. Zealots is actually VERY easy to land with JI when used correctly and knowing the timing of the wind up, Ray of judgment is used Point blank, so not sure how that is going to miss…

Will some of these moves be dodged? yes, But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

These moves, will miss because of the angle that one can do. If you do zealots defense, I can move maybe 10 feet to one side, and it will completely miss. No dodge used there. Saying smite will land is more of an exaggeration than saying someone will stand in the symbols, it never happens, and if it does then you’re not playing good players. Again you are wasting a mediation (stun breaker + a heal) just to land it. Oh and your stats are below average. You should never include food into calculating stats, because that is completely situational. You would probably do less than 3k~ crit on warrior with over 3k armor with that attack using zealots defense. Burns stack duration as well only you can only proc VoJ so often, so he only has to cure one condition (or two if immobilized). Keep trying though.

I will include food if it is part of WvW and is a main basis of my healing. And my zealots normally hit for 4k+ on pretty much any target. once again Immobile + smite lands hits, regardless if you think it doesn’t or not. Wasting JI to land my highest damage ability + make it stronger through the 10% extra damage to burning targets trait I also don’t think is a waste. Once again I am sorry if you seem confused about how to play the class.

As far as stats below average, how are they? 72% crit is pretty much well above average, 2800 AP is with my sword, im at 2900 with my GS, my crit damage is once again 67% which is pretty normal, and my armor is just shy of 3k. The only difference is that I gave up a bit of power for more crit because my build counts on them for self healing and condition removal. Maybe you should look into some more diverse builds before you start comparing stats.

Brutaly already agreed with the fact that these skills when used correctly don’t just miss, and Christos has already vouched for my build/skill while playing. I am sorry you cant seem to get that but guardians are fully capable of taking down warriors.

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

Lol burn spec, you would die instantly after you burn your meditations.

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range. Zealots Defense, will almost miss every time and wasting JI to land it, theres goes one of your heals in an attempt to land this move. Ray of Judgement is crap and will miss if not do weak damage. Shield of wraith is good. Scepter is 100% useless in sPvP or WvW PvP, the immoblize takes too long to cast and smite isn’t going to do “good” damage unless they stand in it. Torch is decent dps. Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So your build is actually worse than a cookie cutter. I applaud your attempts at theory crafting a burning build, but in reality, its quite weak.

I once again give you credit for not being able to click a single link in my sig.
A) its is not a burn spec, it is a hybrid burn spec, as in I added condition damage while inflicting minimal loss of DPS, I still have 2800 power with 1h sword, 72% crit, and 67% crit damage.
B) I play WvW, i get food, Omnomberry pie with 72% crit heals for ALOT. add in passive healing from virtue and heals from meditations, and guess what, tons of self healing while STILL burning you for 500 per tick.

I also love how you say all these skills will miss, Do warriors get an extra 10 dodges or something I don’t know about? The scepter Immobilize is actually very easy to land, and combos directly into smite, even if the immobilize is broken its still getting a few hits in. Zealots is actually VERY easy to land with JI when used correctly and knowing the timing of the wind up, Ray of judgment is used Point blank, so not sure how that is going to miss…

Will some of these moves be dodged? yes, But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

These moves, will miss because of the angle that one can do. If you do zealots defense, I can move maybe 10 feet to one side, and it will completely miss. No dodge used there. Saying smite will land is more of an exaggeration than saying someone will stand in the symbols, it never happens, and if it does then you’re not playing good players. Again you are wasting a mediation (stun breaker + a heal) just to land it. Oh and your stats are below average. You should never include food into calculating stats, because that is completely situational. You would probably do less than 3k~ crit on warrior with over 3k armor with that attack using zealots defense. Burns stack duration as well only you can only proc VoJ so often, so he only has to cure one condition (or two if immobilized). Keep trying though.

I will include food if it is part of WvW and is a main basis of my healing. And my zealots normally hit for 4k+ on pretty much any target. once again Immobile + smite lands hits, regardless if you think it doesn’t or not. Wasting JI to land my highest damage ability + make it stronger through the 10% extra damage to burning targets trait I also don’t think is a waste. Once again I am sorry if you seem confused about how to play the class.

As far as stats below average, how are they? 72% crit is pretty much well above average, 2800 AP is with my sword, im at 2900 with my GS, my crit damage is once again 67% which is pretty normal, and my armor is just shy of 3k. The only difference is that I gave up a bit of power for more crit because my build counts on them for self healing and condition removal. Maybe you should look into some more diverse builds before you start comparing stats.

Brutaly already agreed with the fact that these skills when used correctly don’t just miss, and Christos has already vouched for my build/skill while playing. I am sorry you cant seem to get that but guardians are fully capable of taking down warriors.

The fact you NEED food in your build is a sad. You rely on it, you need it. The fact you based your build that relies on food proves just how bad ur build is. You wont hit 4k on a target that has 3k armor with 2800 attack and 67% crit damage, as much as you want to think. Obviously when used correct no skill misses, that’s a terrible argument. I could care less about “Christos” opinions, i could get 5 people from my guild to say im a good guardian and it wouldn’t matter. Im not saying i can’t take down warriors either, but you won’t take down a good warrior. Face it.

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

Archer.1658:

The fact you NEED food in your build is a sad. You rely on it, you need it. The fact you based your build that relies on food proves just how bad ur build is. You wont hit 4k on a target that has 3k armor with 2800 attack and 67% crit damage, as much as you want to think. Obviously when used correct no skill misses, that’s a terrible argument. I could care less about “Christos” opinions, i could get 5 people from my guild to say im a good guardian and it wouldn’t matter. Im not saying i can’t take down warriors either, but you won’t take down a good warrior. Face it.

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

When a food can apply more healing than anything else your class can do, yes I will make a build around it. It is called being resourceful, and considering I am talking from a WvW standpoint where everyone uses these buffs, why should they not be included? And actually my build was originally based around high Crit AH build using vigor on crit before it got nerfed to oblivion for 1h builds. After that I found another resource to keep my high crit build viable.

Once again, I have no issues taking down warriors. I have done it multiple times before, and will continue to do so with or without you believing it. Honestly at this point I’m left to just believe that you are a troll that really does not know anything about thinking outside of the cookie cutter box for guardian, and will never utilize one to full potential.

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

The fact you NEED food in your build is a sad. You rely on it, you need it. The fact you based your build that relies on food proves just how bad ur build is. You wont hit 4k on a target that has 3k armor with 2800 attack and 67% crit damage, as much as you want to think. Obviously when used correct no skill misses, that’s a terrible argument. I could care less about “Christos” opinions, i could get 5 people from my guild to say im a good guardian and it wouldn’t matter. Im not saying i can’t take down warriors either, but you won’t take down a good warrior. Face it.

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

When a food can apply more healing than anything else your class can do, yes I will make a build around it. It is called being resourceful, and considering I am talking from a WvW standpoint where everyone uses these buffs, why should they not be included? And actually my build was originally based around high Crit AH build using vigor on crit before it got nerfed to oblivion for 1h builds. After that I found another resource to keep my high crit build viable.

Once again, I have no issues taking down warriors. I have done it multiple times before, and will continue to do so with or without you believing it. Honestly at this point I’m left to just believe that you are a troll that really does not know anything about thinking outside of the cookie cutter box for guardian, and will never utilize one to full potential.

Food was never ment to have builds built around it lol. It was there to accommodate for small loops in stats and builds. It was not resourceful, it is pitiful and actually shows how bad guardians need better trait synergy in the tree lines for newer builds. Go ahead and roll over warriors, Im not saying you can’t, im saying you take a good guardian vs a good warrior 1v1, a warrior will come out on top. Simple. You failed to retort to the fact your build has holes in it, your burns only happen so often, yet claim there a huge part of it. Your crit chance is ridiculously high for the amount of crit damage u actually have, your attack and armor suffer as a result. I don’t even want to imagine how much HP u have (i kind of do, probably less than 15k).

I’ll just leave this here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/79189-fotm-lvl-80/

I hope you get it now. (hint: party setup)

I don’t think the original issue is which profession can beat another, the real issue was that to the OP, Warrior’s just had it a lot easier as a melee (and ranged) profession and seems more useful and suited to it.
As I said, I tend to agree, I’m not saying Guardian is crap, I love Guardian but just the way the skills and traits are for both, Warrior just comes out on top in terms of being fun and certainly in regard to damage.
Guardian support is quite good though, no arguments there. I find a good percentage of Guardian’s weapons really not up to par when compared to the effectiveness of Warrior weapons (not to mention, plenty of other professions).

Silver.8023:

Reven.6750:

Where a warrior has a cripple, a guardian has the ability to root the target in place.

I disagree with this entirely. Warriors also have the ability to hold targets in place.
Warrior – Six cripple weapon skills.
Guardian – Two cripple skills, one on an elite tome and the other a downed underwater skill

Warrior – Four immobilise skills across weapons and utilities in addition to the Leg Specialist trait if they take it, which would bring it up to five.
Guardian – Three immobilise skills. One of which is a slow moving projectile dealy and another a condition damage signet….

So really, we aren’t anywhere near equal footing in regard to snares. This is also ignoring the fact that Warriors also have much easier access to swiftness and have a couple more gap closers.

Yes we have wards, which I quite like, however, they aren’t reliable and I would trade them in a heartbeat for reliable snares. They only last around 6 seconds, have a large cooldown and stability renders them useless. Cripples on Warrior weapons have a good uptime with reasonably short cooldowns and when they’re on cooldown, they can also throw out some immobilises. Stability isn’t going to do anything against those.

I also play a Warrior and I can’t think of a Warrior weapon that feels as broken as say Guardian’s torch, scepter or sword (to a lesser extent, staff). In fact, I’d say all the Warrior weapons work really well and are quite fun to play.

Yes, Guardians can withstand a lot of damage, yes, we can throw out a lot of boons but we can’t catch anyone easily, let alone kill them easily. We’re like party buffing punching bags.
Considering Guardian is designed to be more effective in melee range, you’d think we would have more options for maintaining that range.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Each class has their respective strong points. adding up the number of immobilizes or cripples means little by itself, more so the weapon abilities that they have synergy with. It seems like you want the guardian to be a warrior which I hope they never do. I like the idea of more suvivability and less mobility on a guardian. All classes will need tweaking I think guardians and warriors are closer to balanced than most.

I highly recommend you actually play the class before complaining about the class…

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range.

If you have ever even tried the guardian sword, you would know that flashing blades has an instant travel time and that the only delay between firing it and the blind landing is around 0.5 seconds of swinging time which does not change with distance.
Like several others have mentioned: How the heck do warriors dodge flashing blades, zealots defense, ray of judgement and the 0.5 second cast immobilize skill. Those can be cast in way less then 5 seconds, the only classes that has anywhere near the amound of dodges to dodge even more then a half of that combination are mesmers, elementalists and thiefs.

Let me counter your argument with a warrior greatsword/rifle argument, written in the same style as yours.

Greatswords HB can be dodged easily, its 100% useless in sPvP and WvW, if you use frenzy and bulls rush to hit it, congradulations someone just used a stunbreaker and walked away leaving you with 2 used cds. whirlwind attack is a good skill, bladetrail is so slow and does bad damage even if it hits, rush is utter crap, rifle’s cripple shot does next to no damage, volley is so easy to dodge, its so slow, and vunerability shot thingy does no damage. Kill shot won’t ever hit, it takes too long to cast, and is dodged so easily.Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So the warrior cookie cutter build is quite weak. I applaud your attempts at countering someones argument, but your logic is quite flawed.

The problem is, however, other professions can also be really difficult to kill, just as we are, and yet still have easy access to things like cripple, swiftness and in some cases, chill, which are all great at keeping somebody in (or out of) melee range and Guardians, as the devs have said, are supposed to be more effective in melee range than long range, yet we get really no good options for maintaining melee range, in fact we get less than any other profession. Other professions just run around us. That was the purpose of me listing the amounts of cripple/immobilise skills. I could have listed any profession other than Warrior there and they would still have better options.

I understand each profession has their strong points, I wouldn’t like the game if they didn’t, however, Guardian just falls a little short in terms of being an effective melee fighter in regard to the way the weapons and traits work (yes I am aware there are quite good ones, I’m not discounting that). I won’t even get started on ranged.

I know I only pulled one thing out of what you said, I’m not having a dig at you or anything but it sounded like you were saying, “We just snare enemies differently by using immobilises” when the fact is, Warriors still get more immobilises and cripples than Guardians and also use them.

Edit: I’d also like to say this again to everyone, the point of this thread is not to compare builds against each other and say who would win in a fight, it’s about how effective the professions as a whole feel to the player as far as I’m aware. Regardless of who is right or wrong, people are totally within their rights to explain what they think. Calling anyone stupid or just getting mad at people isn’t going to fix anything however.

Jusanden.3897:

I highly recommend you actually play the class before complaining about the class…

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range.

If you have ever even tried the guardian sword, you would know that flashing blades has an instant travel time and that the only delay between firing it and the blind landing is around 0.5 seconds of swinging time which does not change with distance.
Like several others have mentioned: How the heck do warriors dodge flashing blades, zealots defense, ray of judgement and the 0.5 second cast immobilize skill. Those can be cast in way less then 5 seconds, the only classes that has anywhere near the amound of dodges to dodge even more then a half of that combination are mesmers, elementalists and thiefs.

Let me counter your argument with a warrior greatsword/rifle argument, written in the same style as yours.

Greatswords HB can be dodged easily, its 100% useless in sPvP and WvW, if you use frenzy and bulls rush to hit it, congradulations someone just used a stunbreaker and walked away leaving you with 2 used cds. whirlwind attack is a good skill, bladetrail is so slow and does bad damage even if it hits, rush is utter crap, rifle’s cripple shot does next to no damage, volley is so easy to dodge, its so slow, and vunerability shot thingy does no damage. Kill shot won’t ever hit, it takes too long to cast, and is dodged so easily.Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So the warrior cookie cutter build is quite weak. I applaud your attempts at countering someones argument, but your logic is quite flawed.

Uh yeah, sword is quite terrible, the fact that zealots defense roots you makes you an easy target. Ray of judgements travel speed is unrealiable. I never said GS/rifle, I said GS Axe + shield. What you posted is what happens if a warrior trys to blow all his cooldowns to instantly kill you. Good warriors like any other good players don’t do that. Bladetrail does great damage actually, so wrong there. As for the rest, I didnt use rifle as an argument, but heres i’ll toy with you. Volley will destroy you, simple, bleeds and vulnerability as well. Kill shot if missed, only has a recharge, and please try and dodge a kill shot that has frenzy while used. Apparently your logic is quite flawed sir.

Archer.1658:

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

Lol, i play numerous builds, the fact is that i only play AH in Tpvp and in pugs. In my guild i play various setups and often change build, like 5 times each evening.

I even tried Bash build and it works and has some serious impact, is it for me, no but it works really well. And if you can play sword or hammer there is nothing wrong with those weapons but its a l2p issue.

And why is it bad that a build relies on food? Is it also bad if it relies on specific sigils, runes, a specific weapon or a specific size of healthpool? Imo the only thing that determines the strength of a build is how competitive it is, not how it got competitive.

I have 1h sword in my tpvp setup and there are no issues what so ever and i hit with ZD just as i hit with the all the hammer skills, it just takes some preparation, keeping track on dodges and timing.

People that are used to instant casts and a traditional aiming system will have issues with slower skills, me, the only mmo i played is melee in AoC and then actually hitting comes pretty natural.

If both hammer and 1h sword cant hit shiat then maybe the main issue isnt with the weapons.

Brutaly.6257:

Archer.1658:

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

Lol, i play numerous builds, the fact is that i only play AH in Tpvp and in pugs. In my guild i play various setups and often change build, like 5 times each evening.

I even tried Bash build and it works and has some serious impact, is it for me, no but it works really well. And if you can play sword or hammer there is nothing wrong with those weapons but its a l2p issue.

And why is it bad that a build relies on food? Is it also bad if it relies on specific sigils, runes, a specific weapon or a specific size of healthpool? Imo the only thing that determines the strength of a build is how competitive it is, not how it got competitive.

I have 1h sword in my tpvp setup and there are no issues what so ever and i hit with ZD just as i hit with the all the hammer skills, it just takes some preparation, keeping track on dodges and timing.

People that are used to instant casts and a traditional aiming system will have issues with slower skills, me, the only mmo i played is melee in AoC and then actually hitting comes pretty natural.

If both hammer and 1h sword cant hit shiat then maybe the main issue isnt with the weapons.

Like i said, stick with your cookie cutter AH build. I have no troubles landing hammer skills or the sword skills. The problem is that due to “animation bugs” sword skills tend to miss a lot. For example, flashing blade when your on say a hillside or mighty blow for that matter will too. Its not that the player can’t land them, its because of the “animated bugs” (not sure what else to call them) that happen on certain landscapes that stop them from landing.

Using food to “complete” builds is ridiculous, they were never intended as such. Im not saying you cant, but the fact people do is funny. When i see people running food, I automatically assume they need to compensate for some stat. It also gives a slight edge over players that don’t. Sigils and Runes are a completely different story, Rune sets were designed specifically for certain builds that can take advantage of the bonuses they give to certain builds. Its not so much that using food is bad, its that he needs it for his build to work effectively.

Kind of off topic, but something you should know:
The skill lvl on tier 1 server is actually no different than any other server, if you ever even thought that, I really shouldn’t take you seriously.

Archer.1658:

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

I enjoy the part where you dismiss viable, competitive Guardian builds handled by good players and go on to criticize other builds played in the worst possible ways. I sincerely hope you’re trolling.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, the metagame disagrees with your analysis. Guardians are considered mandatory for any competitive team, while Warriors of all varieties are lucky to be chosen for the 5th slot. A well-played 100B Warrior is not able to take down a well-played bunker Guardian without help – if they were able to, Warriors would be meta, rather than fringe choices. A typical bunker Guardian has access to multiple stun breaks, sources of Protection, extra dodges, Aegis, Stability, invulnerability skills. various forms of CC, and so on, and all of these forms of defense are excellent for disrupting the Warrior’s burst combos and/or mitigating their sustained output. The only time a Warrior is going to down a decent Guardian is when the Guardian is already occupied with/worn down by the Warrior’s teammates, and many classes would be capable of downing a Guardian in such a scenario. The Warrior, in general, is useful to a team when his combo is up, because a standard 100B combo is a glass cannon that isn’t suitable for prolonged combat against decent opponents.

In regard to your arguments about the 1h Sword…I really haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about, and have to question if you’ve actually used the 1h Sword before. Flashing Blade missing? Maybe if you try to use it without taking a target first, or trying to cast it out of range, but otherwise, that simply doesn’t happen. Zealot’s Defense will miss in the same way that the Warrior’s 100B will miss if you don’t set it up – I would personally suggest leading with the Scepter’s Immobilize while mixing in Smite (which will also hit quite nicely if you set it up) and Flashing Blade for the gap closer (no need to waste JI, which you seem to be concerned about).

Overall, I have to agree with Brutaly that this is a L2P issue. Maybe Guardian simply isn’t the class for you, if you’ve played it for so long and haven’t seen good results. Many other people have come forth in this thread to claim that they do not struggle when using the Guardian, and, conversely, enjoy great success. As things stand, the fact is that Guardians are considered a critical class for high-level Fractals, TPvP, and serious WvW, while Warriors do not share that distinction. If Guardians are somehow terrible in spite of being required in all game areas, and in spite of thousands of players seeing superior results with them, I would love to know how that is.

For 350 hours on a guard I am disappointed in your rantings I would expect someone with that playtime on a class to realize its strengths, especially when compared to a warrior.

Perhaps if you had a warrior also at 80 you would see things differently. And not just what you see on paper.

Soryuju.8164:

Archer.1658:

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

I enjoy the part where you dismiss viable, competitive Guardian builds handled by good players and go on to criticize other builds played in the worst possible ways. I sincerely hope you’re trolling.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, the metagame disagrees with your analysis. Guardians are considered mandatory for any competitive team, while Warriors of all varieties are lucky to be chosen for the 5th slot. A well-played 100B Warrior is not able to take down a well-played bunker Guardian without help – if they were able to, Warriors would be meta, rather than fringe choices. A typical bunker Guardian has access to multiple stun breaks, sources of Protection, extra dodges, Aegis, Stability, invulnerability skills. various forms of CC, and so on, and all of these forms of defense are excellent for disrupting the Warrior’s burst combos and/or mitigating their sustained output. The only time a Warrior is going to down a decent Guardian is when the Guardian is already occupied with/worn down by the Warrior’s teammates, and many classes would be capable of downing a Guardian in such a scenario. The Warrior, in general, is useful to a team when his combo is up, because a standard 100B combo is a glass cannon that isn’t suitable for prolonged combat against decent opponents.

In regard to your arguments about the 1h Sword…I really haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about, and have to question if you’ve actually used the 1h Sword before. Flashing Blade missing? Maybe if you try to use it without taking a target first, or trying to cast it out of range, but otherwise, that simply doesn’t happen. Zealot’s Defense will miss in the same way that the Warrior’s 100B will miss if you don’t set it up – I would personally suggest leading with the Scepter’s Immobilize while mixing in Smite (which will also hit quite nicely if you set it up) and Flashing Blade for the gap closer (no need to waste JI, which you seem to be concerned about).

Overall, I have to agree with Brutaly that this is a L2P issue. Maybe Guardian simply isn’t the class for you, if you’ve played it for so long and haven’t seen good results. Many other people have come forth in this thread to claim that they do not struggle when using the Guardian, and, conversely, enjoy great success. As things stand, the fact is that Guardians are considered a critical class for high-level Fractals, TPvP, and serious WvW, while Warriors do not share that distinction. If Guardians are somehow terrible in spite of being required in all game areas, and in spite of thousands of players seeing superior results with them, I would love to know how that is.

The metagame is based off what is used more frequently. How many warriors actually run shouts or banners? Not many, and thats because they dont wanna play a supportish way, but if they do, they proved a mix of dps + defensive support. Guardian does not. Have u ever seen a lvl 40+ fractal party? 4/5 of them are guardians, using a heal spec + running tome of courage because of the agony, so great excelling in PvE. Op Stats we are a water-downed warrior, and is quite accurate. WE were never meant for DPS. a 100b warrior usually wont kill a bunker guardian, true, but the bunker guardian usually wont kill a 100b warrior either. Can a dps guardian kill a bunker warrior let alone anyone while surviving? Nope. Scepters immoblize is on too long of a cooldown for effective use in WvW or sPvP. Guardians are favored in tPvP, because can control a point better than a warrior, nothing more

Oh and lets break down your how bad guardian really is in giving allies boons.

Protection – Hold the line, Save Yourselves, VoC if traited. SoP that you have to stand in.

Aegis – Retreat, VoC

Stability -Stand your ground, VoC if traited, hollowed ground.

Invurnrability – Renewed Focus 3 secs AS AN ELITE.(90 second cooldown can be traited for lower requires 30 into virtues, waste, compared a warriors utility enduring pain of 5 secs).

I dont know where you get the idea that guardians are great at this. My friends ele gives better boons to a party than a guardian ever will, just as an example. People like to comment l2P when faced with the truth, im ok with that.

you must be terrible guardians if you cant fight warriors.

Archer.1658:

KensaiZen.3740:

Why do you think they keep nerfing us and buffing warriors? Its because we are awesome. On paper it looks like the warrior gets lits of nice things but they lack build synergy that makes Guardians far stronger.

It takes more skill to play a guardian and if you play it well, you will never lose to a warrior.warriors are actually considered a lower tier class by the pro’s. Guardian is floating near the top.

Because its blatant class favoritism. Warrior was designed for its high dps, but has the ability to be more tanky than a guardian and pretty much heal just as much as we do given that they trait and gear for it, just as we have too.
Every sPvP guardian will run a cookie cutter AH hammer/staff build and just hold a point, it takes no skill.

Indure.5410:

I’m sorry but you don’t seem to have a complete grasp of the Guardian class if you think we are just a water down warrior. A warrior’s superior innate defenses in no way compare to a guardian’s active defenses when played by a skillful player. Personally, one of my favorite classes to fight in PVP is a warrior, because they don’t have nearly the survivability and escapes of some of the other classes. If a warrior engages they are pretty much stuck in a fight to the death, which if you can avoid their burst, means it will be theirs.

Um, warriors has plenty of defenses. Shield, Enduring Pain, Sword for mobility, Warhorn for mobility, Rush (although the animation glitchs a lot). As for dodging their burst thats just a silly argument, because u can dodge a guardians burst/dps just as easily lol. All the while your busy dodging a warriors hundred blades for example, he can just pull out of the fight, pull out rifle and range you to death.

You must be a terribad guardian, or have no clue about warriors, to believe this.

I play both guardian and warrior, in tpvp and wvw, and guardian is basically in every way an upgraded warrior.

Sure you can stomp the occasional newbie with a frenzy 100b once in a while, or get a big kill shot crit. But guardian can mow down 10 of those newbies without breaking a sweat, and do amazing group support and healing that puts the warrior to shame at the same time.

And for fighting good players, guardian>>>>>warrior, by far.

xiv.7136:

Archer.1658:

KensaiZen.3740:

Why do you think they keep nerfing us and buffing warriors? Its because we are awesome. On paper it looks like the warrior gets lits of nice things but they lack build synergy that makes Guardians far stronger.

It takes more skill to play a guardian and if you play it well, you will never lose to a warrior.warriors are actually considered a lower tier class by the pro’s. Guardian is floating near the top.

Because its blatant class favoritism. Warrior was designed for its high dps, but has the ability to be more tanky than a guardian and pretty much heal just as much as we do given that they trait and gear for it, just as we have too.
Every sPvP guardian will run a cookie cutter AH hammer/staff build and just hold a point, it takes no skill.

Indure.5410:

I’m sorry but you don’t seem to have a complete grasp of the Guardian class if you think we are just a water down warrior. A warrior’s superior innate defenses in no way compare to a guardian’s active defenses when played by a skillful player. Personally, one of my favorite classes to fight in PVP is a warrior, because they don’t have nearly the survivability and escapes of some of the other classes. If a warrior engages they are pretty much stuck in a fight to the death, which if you can avoid their burst, means it will be theirs.

Um, warriors has plenty of defenses. Shield, Enduring Pain, Sword for mobility, Warhorn for mobility, Rush (although the animation glitchs a lot). As for dodging their burst thats just a silly argument, because u can dodge a guardians burst/dps just as easily lol. All the while your busy dodging a warriors hundred blades for example, he can just pull out of the fight, pull out rifle and range you to death.

You must be a terribad guardian, or have no clue about warriors, to believe this.

I play both guardian and warrior, in tpvp and wvw, and guardian is basically in every way an upgraded warrior.

Sure you can stomp the occasional newbie with a frenzy 100b once in a while, or get a big kill shot crit. But guardian can mow down 10 of those newbies without breaking a sweat, and do amazing group support and healing that puts the warrior to shame at the same time.

And for fighting good players, guardian>>>>>warrior, by far.

Definitely not, prove it. What rank are you in tPvP? How much kills do you got in WvW on ur Warrior vs Guardian? Post a video of your epic guardianess please, as it stands your argument is im bad because you say I am. Hey, guess what? I think you’re a terribad guardian. Oh I think i know a bit about warriors, considering I said I have one. Oh and how are you planning on mowing down those 10 people? I guarantee you will die almost instantly if 10 people focus fired you (not saying a warrior wouldn’t).

Archer.1658:

Like i said, stick with your cookie cutter AH build.

I have no troubles landing hammer skills or the sword skills.

Using food to “complete” builds is ridiculous, they were never intended as such.

Kind of off topic, but something you should know:
The skill lvl on tier 1 server is actually no different than any other server, if you ever even thought that, I really shouldn’t take you seriously.

Once again i dont play only AH, its the one that bests suits my present gameplay but i play several other builds and weapons as well, even mace which i have a sincere hate for.

Weird you stated on several places that ZE and RoW are useless and the former cant hit. I disagree, its a matter of learning how to use them just as its a matter of learning how to use the mace or any other weapon.

Weird, you seem to have information regarding Anets intention with food and that food isnt a component that should be centric in a buildconcept. Where did you get that info?

I state the opposite, considering how strong the food buffs are, if you havent figured out why some proccs from critfood are much stronger then the same procc on a sigil i think its time to start figuring that out, i believe you miss out on a lot of diversity.

Since i play on several servers in different tiers i know there is a difference and overall skill i better in higher tiers given the same population, there is a reason for them being T1 servers.
On the other hand the team i play with in lower tiers have better individuals but we have chosen to switch servers to meet up with the best guilds in EU.

So in general they are better in higher tiers, hence the higher tier, but there are also exeptions to the rule.

Got to go and play some more shoutbased warrior now, i just love 400hps, 4k burstskill with hammer and 24k health with 3k armor combined with 5k aoe heals.

Brutaly.6257:

Archer.1658:

Like i said, stick with your cookie cutter AH build.

I have no troubles landing hammer skills or the sword skills.

Using food to “complete” builds is ridiculous, they were never intended as such.

Kind of off topic, but something you should know:
The skill lvl on tier 1 server is actually no different than any other server, if you ever even thought that, I really shouldn’t take you seriously.

Once again i dont play only AH, its the one that bests suits my present gameplay but i play several other builds and weapons as well, even mace which i have a sincere hate for.

Weird you stated on several places that ZE and RoW are useless and the former cant hit. I disagree, its a matter of learning how to use them just as its a matter of learning how to use the mace or any other weapon.

Weird, you seem to have information regarding Anets intention with food and that food isnt a component that should be centric in a buildconcept. Where did you get that info?

I state the opposite, considering how strong the food buffs are, if you havent figured out why some proccs from critfood are much stronger then the same procc on a sigil i think its time to start figuring that out, i believe you miss out on a lot of diversity.

Since i play on several servers in different tiers i know there is a difference and overall skill i better in higher tiers given the same population, there is a reason for them being T1 servers.
On the other hand the team i play with in lower tiers have better individuals but we have chosen to switch servers to meet up with the best guilds in EU.

So in general they are better in higher tiers, hence the higher tier, but there are also exeptions to the rule.

Got to go and play some more shoutbased warrior now, i just love 400hps, 4k burstskill with hammer and 24k health with 3k armor combined with 5k aoe heals.

The skill difference from a Tier 1 Server to a Tier 8 Server in term of “killing” is no different. The only difference is sieging experience and population. If you honestly think otherwise, again I feel sorry for you. Go ahead and use food to compensate for a professions LACK of diversity in their trait lines, you’re only fooling yourself. I bet it would be funny to forget and then you suddenly find yourself losing a lot. I also find it comical you hate the mace, which is one of our better weapons. You’ll pretty much just say the opposite of what I say I suppose. I didn’t expect to change the minds of all guardians in one day.

Archer.1658:

The skill difference from a Tier 1 Server to a Tier 8 Server in term of “killing” is no different. The only difference is sieging experience and population. If you honestly think otherwise, again I feel sorry for you.

Think you missed the news today, just check the current leaderboard in T1 EU, the guild on top, SFR, isnt even close to the second ranked and the third ranked when it comes to sieging and its also a medium populated server and most mornings they have the outmanned buff on two maps and still they keep up with the other servers.

Archer.1658:

I also find it comical you hate the mace, which is one of our better weapons.

which was the reason i mentioned it, thx for taking the bait, you seem to mix up personal preference with performance, the mace is great but personally i hate it, and its not made for me. But i know it works for others so i dont advocate changes to it. Same with GS, some love it and some hate but its a good weapon.

The same can apparently be said about your preference for 1h swords and hammer skills! Do you see my point?

There is nothing wrong with neither of those weapons, but they arent suited for some persons but they can be played very effectively.

70% of the time in a 1vs1 situation I will come out on top with my Guardian and the only 2 classes I have an issue with is Mesmers and Thieves but at the end of the day its down to skill. If someone is more skilled than me I will lose and that’s that. All the classes are fairly balanced to be honest and although a warrior can deal more burst damage than a Guardian I can deal a fair amount of damage myself and also keep my HP close to full.

Pros and cons, every class has them and you learn to play taking those into account. A guardian is not a warrior and a warrior is not a guardian therefore comparing them is something you should avoid.

@archer

I love how this arguement has now turned to “food is used to make up for your build” considering I actually have tried MULTIPLE types of food for my build and it still works i find that not the case. Also I do used a modified version of my build in sPvP and it still works fine so honestly the food is not a band-aid to a build but just an enhancement. So if you want to gimp yourself in WvW then for not using them go ahead.

I also dont get why you intend to “change the minds of guardians” So it is your intention to get people to believe that all of our skills suck ( literaly the only weapon you didnt trash was GS but i may have missed that) Overall for someone who says they play a guardian I cant seem to understand why. According to everything you have said we are pretty much a garbage class despite MANY people telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Archer.1658:

Food was never ment to have builds built around it lol.

Then they shouldn’t have such OP food, but they do.

Archer.1658:

Jusanden.3897:

I highly recommend you actually play the class before complaining about the class…

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range.

If you have ever even tried the guardian sword, you would know that flashing blades has an instant travel time and that the only delay between firing it and the blind landing is around 0.5 seconds of swinging time which does not change with distance.
Like several others have mentioned: How the heck do warriors dodge flashing blades, zealots defense, ray of judgement and the 0.5 second cast immobilize skill. Those can be cast in way less then 5 seconds, the only classes that has anywhere near the amound of dodges to dodge even more then a half of that combination are mesmers, elementalists and thiefs.

Let me counter your argument with a warrior greatsword/rifle argument, written in the same style as yours.

Greatswords HB can be dodged easily, its 100% useless in sPvP and WvW, if you use frenzy and bulls rush to hit it, congradulations someone just used a stunbreaker and walked away leaving you with 2 used cds. whirlwind attack is a good skill, bladetrail is so slow and does bad damage even if it hits, rush is utter crap, rifle’s cripple shot does next to no damage, volley is so easy to dodge, its so slow, and vunerability shot thingy does no damage. Kill shot won’t ever hit, it takes too long to cast, and is dodged so easily.Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So the warrior cookie cutter build is quite weak. I applaud your attempts at countering someones argument, but your logic is quite flawed.

Uh yeah, sword is quite terrible, the fact that zealots defense roots you makes you an easy target. Ray of judgements travel speed is unrealiable. I never said GS/rifle, I said GS Axe + shield. What you posted is what happens if a warrior trys to blow all his cooldowns to instantly kill you. Good warriors like any other good players don’t do that. Bladetrail does great damage actually, so wrong there. As for the rest, I didnt use rifle as an argument, but heres i’ll toy with you. Volley will destroy you, simple, bleeds and vulnerability as well. Kill shot if missed, only has a recharge, and please try and dodge a kill shot that has frenzy while used. Apparently your logic is quite flawed sir.

You do realize it’s very easy to get out of the rooting in ZD, right? If not, then you’ve got more problems than it sounds like.

Also, this thing about being against food (ESPECIALLY the comment about when you see people with the food buff on): LOL! That’s quite hilarious. I really, really hope you’re joking about that.

About the OP, I’m with several people here. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses. The best way to play is to learn about and counter them.

I switch all the time.. That is why I am so pure.. Need like a set every situation, like playing a hybrid in WoW.
My biggest regret is that I rolled human instead of Norn-__-’
But well give us 2-4k more base health.. I hate that my thief got more health than my guardian (or same amount if specced and equipped with same gear’n’stuff).

That said guardians are op^^ even my mesmer friend find em hard to tackle from time to time.

LOL @ Archer’s food hate. Listen, if you’re min/maxing you take EVERYTHING into account.

Dissmissing food for builds and theory crafting make me value your opinion about as much as I value Lance Armstrong’s.

The grass is always greener I suppose.

The only change I’d like to see HONESTLY (not pipe dreaming) is a snare on a couple of weapons.

Musty.3148:

LOL @ Archer’s food hate. Listen, if you’re min/maxing you take EVERYTHING into account.

Dissmissing food for builds and theory crafting make me value your opinion about as much as I value Lance Armstrong’s.

The grass is always greener I suppose.

The only change I’d like to see HONESTLY (not pipe dreaming) is a snare on a couple of weapons.

Smite turning symbol and giving a trait in 20 zeal or even change the 15 or 25 zeal traits to add a 1 second chill to symbol pulses and i would be completely content.

I think that may actually be a bit OP?

If you changed smite all of our main hands except sword would have a chill.

I don’t see that happening… like… ever.

True but most people avoid symbols like the plague. As i said make it semi deep in the zeal line. Hell make it a grandmaster, that way people might actually think of going full into zeal for damage builds. The only weapon that runs the possibilty of it being really op would be hamme since that has the fastest rate of applying symbols. Or maybe just make it so that it applies a 2 second chill to people in it when it first gets laid down.

The things a guardian can do in WvW like buff allies, provide stability for long periods of time, and stop movement no one else can do. I think that’s more useful than anything a warrior can do. I feel like most warriors build to be best at killing someone who is AFK.

Silver.8023:

I don’t think the original issue is which profession can beat another, the real issue was that to the OP, Warrior’s just had it a lot easier as a melee (and ranged) profession and seems more useful and suited to it.
As I said, I tend to agree, I’m not saying Guardian is crap, I love Guardian but just the way the skills and traits are for both, Warrior just comes out on top in terms of being fun and certainly in regard to damage.
Guardian support is quite good though, no arguments there. I find a good percentage of Guardian’s weapons really not up to par when compared to the effectiveness of Warrior weapons (not to mention, plenty of other professions).

That’s what I said. I do not care about being able to kill X or Y class (just don’t get me started on thieves). I was just ranting about how their sets combine so well compared to ours.

I think the only good set we have is mace + shield. It just feels like made to be played. But for the rest of our weapons, with the exception of the hammer, they don’t feel as great as warrior counterparts. Again, it’s not that I want the damage or DoTs of the Warriors, I would just like a counterpart as good as them. Maybe not damage-wise, but just around the weapon itself – make them actually useful.

Archer.1658:

Tysefol.2017:

Silver.8023:

I don’t think the original issue is which profession can beat another, the real issue was that to the OP, Warrior’s just had it a lot easier as a melee (and ranged) profession and seems more useful and suited to it.
As I said, I tend to agree, I’m not saying Guardian is crap, I love Guardian but just the way the skills and traits are for both, Warrior just comes out on top in terms of being fun and certainly in regard to damage.
Guardian support is quite good though, no arguments there. I find a good percentage of Guardian’s weapons really not up to par when compared to the effectiveness of Warrior weapons (not to mention, plenty of other professions).

That’s what I said. I do not care about being able to kill X or Y class (just don’t get me started on thieves). I was just ranting about how their sets combine so well compared to ours.

I think the only good set we have is mace + shield. It just feels like made to be played. But for the rest of our weapons, with the exception of the hammer, they don’t feel as great as warrior counterparts. Again, it’s not that I want the damage or DoTs of the Warriors, I would just like a counterpart as good as them. Maybe not damage-wise, but just around the weapon itself – make them actually useful.

It will never happen. In fact guardians will probably get a nerf next patch again to the greatsword on its AoE. It’s people who make the guardian out to be immortal like the above, that makes it more difficult for the problems to be addressed. Everyone seems to think Guardian is in a good place, it was in a decent place a few months ago before countless nerfs, now it is slowly degraded to a dam healer profession. This will be my last comment in this thread, because everyone here is apparently the best guardians in the dam world. But my recommendation would be to reroll another profession before you waste a lot of gold on your guardian like I did.

Also, Lol @ everyone who got kitten about the food comment, I was clearly right about food compensating for lack of stats or skill. Peace!

Laughing at anyone that uses Food for the buffs is like laughing at someone for using SY! or Empowering Might or Protection, or etc,etc.

I don’t run a full on damage oriented build and I don’t believe I should have to. I don’t argue that Guardians are hella tough to kill. Being hard to kill doesn’t necessarily mean we’re godlike because I also find that for the builds that are hard to kill, it’s also quite hard to kill anyone, especially other tough builds. The reason for this, as I’ve mentioned before, is that while we certainly do have good sustained damage, having all the other professions run circles around us makes that sustained damage relatively useless.

Fictional case in point:
“Come back here so I can pummel you with my mace! If it’s not too much trouble, please stand still while I’m doing it so my symbol actually does something as I have no means of keeping you there…. Yeah you better run. I’ll just… stand here I guess.”
(Yes, of course if it were me at this point I’d be switching weapons but you see what I’m getting at)

I think we simply need to fix a few weapons or traits and Guardians will be golden. If we just had a couple of cripples on weapon skills (and perhaps a pinch more swiftness/movement speed) we’d be so much more effective in melee like we’re supposed to be. While we’re at it, some combo finishers would be nice! (Imagine Smite Condition as a blast finisher! :O)

Some good candidates for weapon reworks would be sword and scepter if you ask me. I find sword and scepter to be the worst weapons we have, I don’t really care if you use them and have a great time, I find them hardly as effective as they could be and incredibly boring to use (compared to say, Warrior weapons). Yes, they work, but they could work so much better and be more fun. As it stands, I won’t use either unless the situation absolutely calls for it.
I have put up a thread or two about them a while ago though so I won’t derail this one too much, they’re probably a couple of pages back now though.
I think torch could stand to be reassessed as well but I admit I haven’t put a whole lot of thought into that one.

If you look at Warrior weapons, the only main hand weapons (two handers included) that don’t have a cripple on them are longbow, harpoon gun and mace. Longbow and harpoon gun still have immobilise and mace is littered with stuns.
I’m not asking for carbon copies of Warrior skills but surely you can see that there’s a distinct lack of snares for Guardian when you compare the two soldier professions, both designed to be more effective in melee range, only one can maintain it.

Silver.8023:

I’m ignoring all that food crap going on in here save for this one statement as food for thought! We can rely on every armour and weapon crafting profession no questions asked but why not also rely on chef? Some of those food effects are awesome.

Anyway, back onto the original topic, I don’t run a full on damage oriented build and I don’t believe I should have to. I don’t argue that Guardians are hella tough to kill. Being hard to kill doesn’t necessarily mean we’re godlike because I also find that for the builds that are hard to kill, it’s also quite hard to kill anyone, especially other tough builds. The reason for this, as I’ve mentioned before, is that while we certainly do have good sustained damage, having all the other professions run circles around us makes that sustained damage relatively useless.

Fictional case in point:
“Come back here so I can pummel you with my mace! If it’s not too much trouble, please stand still while I’m doing it so my symbol actually does something as I have no means of keeping you there…. Yeah you better run. I’ll just… stand here I guess.”
(Yes, of course if it were me at this point I’d be switching weapons but you see what I’m getting at)

I think we simply need to fix a few weapons or traits and Guardians will be golden. If we just had a couple of cripples on weapon skills (and perhaps a pinch more swiftness/movement speed) we’d be so much more effective in melee like we’re supposed to be. While we’re at it, some combo finishers would be nice! (Imagine Smite Condition as a blast finisher! :O)

Some good candidates for weapon reworks would be sword and scepter if you ask me. I find sword and scepter to be the worst weapons we have, I don’t really care if you use them and have a great time, I find them hardly as effective as they could be and incredibly boring to use (compared to say, Warrior weapons). Yes, they work, but they could work so much better and be more fun. As it stands, I won’t use either unless the situation absolutely calls for it.
I have put up a thread or two about them a while ago though so I won’t derail this one too much, they’re probably a couple of pages back now though.
I think torch could stand to be reassessed as well but I admit I haven’t put a whole lot of thought into that one.

If you look at Warrior weapons, the only main hand weapons (two handers included) that don’t have a cripple on them are longbow, harpoon gun and mace. Longbow and harpoon gun still have immobilise and mace is littered with stuns.
I’m not asking for carbon copies of Warrior skills but surely you can see that there’s a distinct lack of snares for Guardian when you compare the two soldier professions, both designed to be more effective in melee range, only one can maintain it.

I fully agree with you. There are two case scenarios : Either you are a glass canon guard, thus you are pointless, or you are a bunker that will be kited again and again and again.

Problem is, where Guardian can’t go glass canon, Warrior can due to their integrated heal (+8K) and their much higher damage. Where Warrior will burst down someone, we’ll get kited.

I’m TOTALLY okay with the fact that guardians are made for longer fights and that Warriors have burst (and I also agree with the fact that warriors can’t last as long as guardians – damage taking wise), but we do not have the tools to keep the fight as long as we need it. Warriors have, oddly enough.

A scepter & sword remake would be a nice start. A few skill would need a bit of change as well (Just thinking of Melandru’s form for instance, I remember the swipe had decent damage that could almost justify the slowness of the form. Now I can hardly get it to hit to something noticeable – was it nerfed ?).

Archer.1658:

Brutaly.6257:

Archer.1658:

Like i said, stick with your cookie cutter AH build.

I have no troubles landing hammer skills or the sword skills.

Using food to “complete” builds is ridiculous, they were never intended as such.

Kind of off topic, but something you should know:
The skill lvl on tier 1 server is actually no different than any other server, if you ever even thought that, I really shouldn’t take you seriously.

Once again i dont play only AH, its the one that bests suits my present gameplay but i play several other builds and weapons as well, even mace which i have a sincere hate for.

Weird you stated on several places that ZE and RoW are useless and the former cant hit. I disagree, its a matter of learning how to use them just as its a matter of learning how to use the mace or any other weapon.

Weird, you seem to have information regarding Anets intention with food and that food isnt a component that should be centric in a buildconcept. Where did you get that info?

I state the opposite, considering how strong the food buffs are, if you havent figured out why some proccs from critfood are much stronger then the same procc on a sigil i think its time to start figuring that out, i believe you miss out on a lot of diversity.

Since i play on several servers in different tiers i know there is a difference and overall skill i better in higher tiers given the same population, there is a reason for them being T1 servers.
On the other hand the team i play with in lower tiers have better individuals but we have chosen to switch servers to meet up with the best guilds in EU.

So in general they are better in higher tiers, hence the higher tier, but there are also exeptions to the rule.

Got to go and play some more shoutbased warrior now, i just love 400hps, 4k burstskill with hammer and 24k health with 3k armor combined with 5k aoe heals.

The skill difference from a Tier 1 Server to a Tier 8 Server in term of “killing” is no different. The only difference is sieging experience and population. If you honestly think otherwise, again I feel sorry for you. Go ahead and use food to compensate for a professions LACK of diversity in their trait lines, you’re only fooling yourself. I bet it would be funny to forget and then you suddenly find yourself losing a lot. I also find it comical you hate the mace, which is one of our better weapons. You’ll pretty much just say the opposite of what I say I suppose. I didn’t expect to change the minds of all guardians in one day.

If you really think that bunker guardians do no dmg and can rarely kill anything, i feel bad for you. Watch some of the videos on this channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ChrisDawnheart

Tysefol.2017:

I fully agree with you. There are two case scenarios : Either you are a glass canon guard, thus you are pointless, or you are a bunker that will be kited again and again and again.

Problem is, where Guardian can’t go glass canon, Warrior can due to their integrated heal (+8K) and their much higher damage. Where Warrior will burst down someone, we’ll get kited.

I’m TOTALLY okay with the fact that guardians are made for longer fights and that Warriors have burst (and I also agree with the fact that warriors can’t last as long as guardians – damage taking wise), but we do not have the tools to keep the fight as long as we need it. Warriors have, oddly enough.

A scepter & sword remake would be a nice start. A few skill would need a bit of change as well (Just thinking of Melandru’s form for instance, I remember the swipe had decent damage that could almost justify the slowness of the form. Now I can hardly get it to hit to something noticeable – was it nerfed ?).

I don’t think scepter is in need of a full remake, the biggest issue with it is the projectile speed. if it were instant or sped up alot the scepter would be in a good place. Also making smite a symbol will help with our ranged AoE as we have pretty much none.

Sword I am just confused about regarding a rework. I keep seeing people post that it needs to be fixed but what exactly is wrong with it? Auto attacks are fast and good damage (5 hits in the span of 2.5 seconds is nice) Flashing blade /could/ use a bit more damage, but the instant teleport and aoe Blind are nice. ZD is sound both defensively and offensively, though I do understand some frustration with it missing on further targets in WvW, but that is easily countered by using some form of CC before hand such as immobilize, or using judges intervention to move ontop right before the damage starts casting.

I do agree somewhat that guardians cant go full glass cannon spec, but I would attribute that more to our extremely weak zeal trait line more than anything. If we had a viable ranged option through fixing scepter or a good snare built into the zeal trait line I think we would see alot more viability for builds. As it stands people DO have too many ways to get away from a gaurdian without us having to gimp ourselves to keep them in place.

I’ve said it in other threads so I’ll try and be brief about what I think about these.

Scepter
Scepter doesn’t entirely need a full remake but two out of three skills on it need fixing. Smite is less useful the more targets that are in it, assuming they even stay still in there and even then it can miss if they stand still…. Plus, it even LOOKS like a symbol, yet it isn’t. Wah…
- Smite as a symbol would introduce some good trait synergy and combo options.
- Orb of Wrath, well, we all know what’s wrong with that one.

Sword
I find sword to really be not so great at all. So far, aside from opening up the option of an offhander, greatsword seems to surpass sword at pretty much everything.
I think a lot of the problem with sword for me is that it’s a melee weapon that really only does good damage to a single target. People complain that greatsword gets boring because all you do is spam 1 when everything else is on cooldown. Sword is the same, if not, has more 1 spamming and most people praise it! :S At least greatsword’s 1 skill gives might.

- If Flashing Blade were a leap finisher and actually did damage it would be far more fun.
- If Zealot’s Defense hit foes in a line I think that would fix the lack of multi-target damage up a lot for me. Really, the projectiles quite look like they’d hit foes in a line anyway! Plus, it wouldn’t matter as much if you missed with one of them because you’d most likely hit something else.
- If the projectiles that Zealot’s Defense blocked counted as real blocks it would also introduce a nice level of trait synergy.
- I don’t really have a problem with it locking you in place but a lot of people do, it would be a nice option to be able to use it on the move
-Finally, aside from the 1 chain being a little boring, it says that Sword Wave hits up to three foes, yet it can be pretty fiddly to line that one up, I think it’s because it’s a cone attack with the point of the cone starting from directly in front of you, if it were treated as more of an arc based attack (albeit with its slightly larger range) like most other melee skills it would be far more effective. I wouldn’t mind some kind of secondary effect in the chain there somewhere as well. Yeah, yeah, I know it hits five times in one chain, I can count too.

Well that’s what I think about those two weapons. I can talk for far longer on them but most people just get defensive and starting ignoring what I have to say about it. If you’re interested though, I made a thread some time back which basically discusses my problems with sword that I’ve listed here and we could have a big ol’ chat about it there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-Weapons-Suggestions-Thread/first#post678895

It got buried pretty quick though, I didn’t mention scepter in there because I thought other people would but yeah, it went past the first page so nobody saw it. Nothing has changed since I wrote it though, so I feel it’s still relevant.
So much for being brief huh? I don’t want to derail the thread into a weapon skill discussion but I guess it’s still on topic.

Completely obvious to me some people here have absolutely no idea how to play a guardian.

Who says a Guardian has to go either bunker no damage or glass cannon quick death? Hybrids are probably the most powerful type of Guardian as the class is pretty much designed for support as you fight.

Jack of all trades. remember?

Those who think Guardian = Bunker no damage is playing the class wrong. Those who spec for DPS but can’t survive is playing the class wrong.

It is a L2P issue. Find me a warrior that can take me down 1V1 and I will even begin to believe that warriors have something to topple a Guardian.

KensaiZen.3740:

Completely obvious to me some people here have absolutely no idea how to play a guardian.

Who says a Guardian has to go either bunker no damage or glass cannon quick death? Hybrids are probably the most powerful type of Guardian as the class is pretty much designed for support as you fight.

Jack of all trades. remember?

Those who think Guardian = Bunker no damage is playing the class wrong. Those who spec for DPS but can’t survive is playing the class wrong.

It is a L2P issue. Find me a warrior that can take me down 1V1 and I will even begin to believe that warriors have something to topple a Guardian.

Thank you for all that instant hatred/guile post.

Again, I have never said I had troubles with killing warriors. I have compared the kits Guardians and Warriors have and pointed at the fact that Warriors have more “fitting” kits. If you had even read the OP, I have a hybrid build, and I know it’s effectiveness (I even started to juggle a bit with either more knight or more valkyrie).

Little exemple : Crithammer works great with hammer + mace/shield. Yet, I haven’t found any build that worked well with scepter (to lesser extent with staff – staff isn’t too bad) because the weapon itself is in dire need of a change. Now look at the awesauce rifle the Warriors get. If they want to keep someone at bay, they can, if they want to let someone come, they can as well. However, we will have a much harder time doing this – not that we do not have tools for it, but they aren’t optimal for how we’re supposed to roll.

Again, don’t get me wrong, I have killed people in PvP, WvW, whatever you want. I do feel the need of change due to that – when I have no ranged option to face a mere warrior (scepter out of question, staff not enough range – JI, knobacked. Stability ? Great, every ranged scenario will require stability).

Another exemple on thieves : Warrior will quickly burst it down with a minimum of CC, but we, supposed to make it a long fight, will get it down for a few seconds, and it will go away.

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

Exarthious.5792:

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

See the thing is that a healing power bunker Guardian can heal the group just as easily. (see the healway build posted earlier) With our 15 point dodge = AoE heal we can heal just as much as your shouts, add that in with sigil of energy, and the food that gives might on dodge and endurance regen it adds up to ALOT of group healing.

Also we can do the same exact same thing with block on might with shelter, our aegis use, and focus #5. The big difference I have really seen is the types of boons we give compared to warrior, mostly the difference in protection and fury. We have a little fury (only on ourselves) but alot of protection. You guys have alot of fury but little protection. As far as bunker’s go between the classes the only real difference is the buffs we give. And honestly I would say that Guardians pull ahead just because of our massive retaliation uptime, and how much damage that can do to people.

Bakitten291:

Exarthious.5792:

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

See the thing is that a healing power bunker Guardian can heal the group just as easily. (see the healway build posted earlier) With our 15 point dodge = AoE heal we can heal just as much as your shouts, add that in with sigil of energy, and the food that gives might on dodge and endurance regen it adds up to ALOT of group healing.

Also we can do the same exact same thing with block on might with shelter, our aegis use, and focus #5. The big difference I have really seen is the types of boons we give compared to warrior, mostly the difference in protection and fury. We have a little fury (only on ourselves) but alot of protection. You guys have alot of fury but little protection. As far as bunker’s go between the classes the only real difference is the buffs we give. And honestly I would say that Guardians pull ahead just because of our massive retaliation uptime, and how much damage that can do to people.

You’re missing a major difference in regards to defense. With Mace I can keep Weakness on multiple targets for a very long time. Which means unless they’re heavily crit spec’d, they’re doing a lot less damage to me, and my group. You would be suprised how effect this is, when you couple it with Rata Sum Runes. To me forcing condition removals, and also reducing damage is far superior than you providing Protection, considering most classes have thier own Protection buffs.

What is the radius to the dodge heal? I rarely get hit with it in WvW running with Guardians, because we’re moving around a lot. The radius to my shout heals seems to be pretty large in comparison.

Exarthious.5792:

Bakitten291:

Exarthious.5792:

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

See the thing is that a healing power bunker Guardian can heal the group just as easily. (see the healway build posted earlier) With our 15 point dodge = AoE heal we can heal just as much as your shouts, add that in with sigil of energy, and the food that gives might on dodge and endurance regen it adds up to ALOT of group healing.

Also we can do the same exact same thing with block on might with shelter, our aegis use, and focus #5. The big difference I have really seen is the types of boons we give compared to warrior, mostly the difference in protection and fury. We have a little fury (only on ourselves) but alot of protection. You guys have alot of fury but little protection. As far as bunker’s go between the classes the only real difference is the buffs we give. And honestly I would say that Guardians pull ahead just because of our massive retaliation uptime, and how much damage that can do to people.

You’re missing a major difference in regards to defense. With Mace I can keep Weakness on multiple targets for a very long time. Which means unless they’re heavily crit spec’d, they’re doing a lot less damage to me, and my group. You would be suprised how effect this is, when you couple it with Rata Sum Runes. To me forcing condition removals, and also reducing damage is far superior than you providing Protection, considering most classes have thier own Protection buffs.

What is the radius to the dodge heal? I rarely get hit with it in WvW running with Guardians, because we’re moving around a lot. The radius to my shout heals seems to be pretty large in comparison.

Honestly not sure on the radius for the dodge heal, i would assume 600, but no more, also it comes at the end of the dodge, so you have to be pretty good at aiming them, which guardians who spec mostly for it are somewhat decent at it.

As far as weakness goes, condition removal as you said, isn’t really a big issue for guardians. I don’t even run a heavy condition removal spec and i get 2 every 10 seconds, (trait in valor line and sigil of generosity which pretty much purity but way better, I suggest you move to that.) along with my smite condition on demand every 16. This doesnt even account for those that run signet heal which is another condition every 10, the trait that signets remove a condition, soldier runes, the trait that shouts turn a condition to a boon, or the virtue of resolve trait which removes 3 conditions from all allies effected.

Also, weakness has zero effect on retaliation, so all the damage reflection would still be coming through. Granted, all these are situational depending on your spec, runes, sigils etc, but keep in mind alot of guardians do run alot of condition removal, and a good chunk of that is aoe condition removal too.

Well, the good news is that Archer has made such an kitten of himself that he won’t be back nor regarded as anything more than a Troll.

The Bad news is, ~some~ (1 or two) of his points are valid.

Specifically: If you run a full dps build (x/x/30/5/5), you really do need the Omnom’s for the healing. It’s true. 354 healing on a crit is no joke.

Easily countered though…. nerf food and give a buff to Zealous Blade. The reality is, it’s not too OP because in order for the Build to work (30/x/30/x/x), you cannot have 20 in Honor for the Might Stacks (healing via AH) & Dodge Roll.

HOWEVER, w/ Food the way it is, the 30/x/30 build ~IS~ Viable. But it doesn’t change Archers Point: you really need the food because we lack the mobility Warriors inherently have due to thier weapons.

I would not trade my Guardian. Personally. 30/x/30 in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHbjfUW_vk