Guild Wars 2

No. You still want to gear for full direct dps. The only condi thing that would help is the food but only for hammer and scepter and over prolonged fights.

Thx for the update Obal , interest the new combo with the combo using torch and Radiant Fire trait to use a 2x Zealot Flame, is a shame that the sword is useless now compared with mace.

I found that feel much more comfortable using Absolute Resolution instead Supreme Justice almost always, i dont know if is a important lose of dps.

Hey obal, thanks fro the guide.
I tried a build on my own with with gs/sword-focus, you know the classic, without zeal since that looks like a waste of traits for symbols, but looks like mace right now can do what sword is able to do with symbols on it. Can you elaborate?

I did not tought that mace could do so much damage, and i always tought that if you had to go symbols hammer / gs was a better option if you wanted to go zeal. did you try something like this?

Hello, I was wondering if any calculation were made concerning the honor trait line over radiance, a part from loosing the blinds from trash mobs, honor looks really good to me.

Better symbol uptime (more vuln, fire procs) you also get your symbolic avenger bonus 100%, you get extra healing to keep the scholar bonus.

Also the extra damage you get from symbol doesnt require you to use an extra skill ( casting time + aftercast of zealot flame ) I guess for fight that takes less than 10 seconds radiance is still a better choice, but for longer fight honor looks great.

GonzoNeo.4965:

Thx for the update Obal , interest the new combo with the combo using torch and Radiant Fire trait to use a 2x Zealot Flame, is a shame that the sword is useless now compared with mace.

I found that feel much more comfortable using Absolute Resolution instead Supreme Justice almost always, i dont know if is a important lose of dps.

You should be spamming F1 for trash anyway. It just becomes good with bosses. The only place time where it would really tank your damage is with soloing using scepter.

hennrick.4623:

Hey obal, thanks fro the guide.
I tried a build on my own with with gs/sword-focus, you know the classic, without zeal since that looks like a waste of traits for symbols, but looks like mace right now can do what sword is able to do with symbols on it. Can you elaborate?

I did not tought that mace could do so much damage, and i always tought that if you had to go symbols hammer / gs was a better option if you wanted to go zeal. did you try something like this?

Sword is bad now. It was at most 2% better. If you went 6 into zeal it was nearly identical to Mace. Sword lost the 10% dps multiplier. Mace gained 10% more damage for most of it’s duration. It also would apply to offhands used with it while in the symbol. It is better given all that. Hammer GS was always worse then Hammer Mace. I think it was even more so now since you can use a torch and get a lot of torch4s off with radiant fire.

Trice.4598:

Hello, I was wondering if any calculation were made concerning the honor trait line over radiance, a part from loosing the blinds from trash mobs, honor looks really good to me.

Better symbol uptime (more vuln, fire procs) you also get your symbolic avenger bonus 100%, you get extra healing to keep the scholar bonus.

Also the extra damage you get from symbol doesnt require you to use an extra skill ( casting time + aftercast of zealot flame ) I guess for fight that takes less than 10 seconds radiance is still a better choice, but for longer fight honor looks great.

Dekeyz ran zeal/honor/virtues for gs and hammer. The symbolic avenger nerf hurt it and the way radiant fire work makes radiance that much better. It’s worse so we didn’t bother to show it. I didn’t want to overload her since this patch was a total rework and she had a lot on her plate so I just had her put up what is relevant.

So, had a chance to use the GS+Mace/Torch and it is definitely strong. Which is unfortunate because I literally just made Bolt a few weeks ago! Torch is great, but it is going to take awhile to really train myself that it is such a good weapon (it was meta before, but the margin wasn’t very large.) I’m glad mace got some love (even if inadvertent), I used it in my builds after launch before the meta really got established. It’s a great weapon. Established rotation aside, I’m assuming it is best to use mace 3 in situations where all of the following are true: a) an attack will be blocked near instantly, and b) the autoattack chain had just ended c) you don’t have Aegis up (since you’re going to lose UC.)?

I am really looking forward to what DH does to our options. It seems likely that we’ll be going Longbow + Scepter/Torch, though that’s just ballparking a min-max on modifiers.

\o/ I just threw together what looked good upon logging in, I come here to find it’s meta.

Thanks for the work as always Obal/Dekeys.

If it’s not too much trouble, I’m curious about an Honor/Zeal/Virtue Hammer build is, mainly because it looks so stupidly good for a PUG carry build.

obal.3218:

Sword is bad now. It was at most 2% better. If you went 6 into zeal it was nearly identical to Mace. Sword lost the 10% dps multiplier. Mace gained 10% more damage for most of it’s duration. It also would apply to offhands used with it while in the symbol. It is better given all that.

Have you calculated the % difference at all? As good as it is I’m just really not liking mace, so for average pugs I might be tempted to just swap out to Sword even though it’s worse.

Also, I got Zap as a drop a while ago so I’ve been wanting Bolt…

Kelnis.1829:

So, had a chance to use the GS+Mace/Torch and it is definitely strong. Which is unfortunate because I literally just made Bolt a few weeks ago! Torch is great, but it is going to take awhile to really train myself that it is such a good weapon (it was meta before, but the margin wasn’t very large.) I’m glad mace got some love (even if inadvertent), I used it in my builds after launch before the meta really got established. It’s a great weapon. Established rotation aside, I’m assuming it is best to use mace 3 in situations where both all of the following are true: a) an attack will be blocked near instantly, and b) the autoattack chain had just ended c) you don’t have Aegis up (since you’re going to lose UC.)?

I am really looking forward to what DH does to our options. It seems likely that we’ll be going Longbow + Scepter/Torch, though that’s just ballparking a min-max on modifiers.

I agree with your comment on mace 3. That’s what I do. When dragonhunter comes out it will most likely replace virtues. Longbow will be good with scepter torch.

Jerus.4350:

\o/ I just threw together what looked good upon logging in, I come here to find it’s meta.

Thanks for the work as always Obal/Dekeys.

If it’s not too much trouble, I’m curious about an Honor/Zeal/Virtue Hammer build is, mainly because it looks so stupidly good for a PUG carry build.

Honor was worse than Radiance based on the calcs. She only put up optimal stuff given the amount of work needed with this patch.

Fermi.2409:

obal.3218:

Sword is bad now. It was at most 2% better. If you went 6 into zeal it was nearly identical to Mace. Sword lost the 10% dps multiplier. Mace gained 10% more damage for most of it’s duration. It also would apply to offhands used with it while in the symbol. It is better given all that.

Have you calculated the % difference at all? As good as it is I’m just really not liking mace, so for average pugs I might be tempted to just swap out to Sword even though it’s worse.

Also, I got Zap as a drop a while ago so I’ve been wanting Bolt…

We only looked at optimal stuff. Dekeyz had a lot on her plate with this patch so I didn’t want to bug her. It’s probably around 10% overall in a rotation.

I totally understand that Obal, the thought was more that the heal + perma Prot + Might + larger symbols + dodge heals + vigor + well everything would make for a good pug carry. So I’m curious what the loss is. Of course, if it’s a bunch of extra work, NP, love all the work you and Dekeys do Even a rough estimate would suffice if you can do that easily. Just seems like there’s a lazy mode option for Guardian that’s still quite powerful, I’m curious if I’m correct in that assumption.

so, umm, is sword still a viable weapon to use in pve? or mace is simply better in all-round? Just crafted my first pink sword not too long ago, really not feeling throwing it away this quick

Ciellia.1704:

so, umm, is sword still a viable weapon to use in pve? or mace is simply better in all-round? Just crafted my first pink sword not too long ago, really not feeling throwing it away this quick

For dungeons, yeah pretty much the only benefit sword has is the projectile block and blind, if you don’t NEED those, mace is just hands down better, which means almost always. Sword lost damage, Mace gained it through symbol uptime and they were already really close.

That said, you can still play with sword if you want. With all our new damage things are going down so quick that worrying about what is best just seems kinda silly unless you’re really worried about time.

obal.3218:

We only looked at optimal stuff. Dekeyz had a lot on her plate with this patch so I didn’t want to bug her. It’s probably around 10% overall in a rotation.

Honestly, that’s really not too bad, at least for pug groups. Thanks greatly!

I changed my recommendation for the hammer utility build and updated the guide. I feel that it’s worth the damage loss. I went over comparisons for that, sword, and condi gear here since I don’t feel like typing it all out https://youtu.be/dFUoX8Yg324 . Keep in mind it’s group buffed numbers and the %s will go up when solo.

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Ask Strife!

obal.3218:

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Ask Strife!

:b

Did you do any calculations for Hammer/GS ?

Yes. It’s still worse than mace like before the patch.

I might be forgetting something, but from my testing Hammer/GS has clearly more DPS than Hammer/Mace-Torch?

That said, I probably get why you didn’t include it, with Mace-Torch offering more support. I guess it’s the lazymans build to dungeons with a little less support and a little more dps, than Hammer/Mace-Torch. :/

It’s worse if you can’t get all 14 hits from whirling wrath which you can’t do against trash and won’t always get off against bosses.

Schokoladenonkel.7295:

I might be forgetting something, but from my testing Hammer/GS has clearly more DPS than Hammer/Mace-Torch?

That said, I probably get why you didn’t include it, with Mace-Torch offering more support. I guess it’s the lazymans build to dungeons with a little less support and a little more dps, than Hammer/Mace-Torch. :/

I think you have it all wrong. As Obal said you need all the WW attacks to do good damage, and with the radiant fire rotation it’s anything but lazy. You have to factor in practicality into your builds, being a spreadsheet fighter doesn’t help you any. And if you want to be lazy go Mace/Focus like me!

According to my tests you really don’t need to hit all(!) the extra blades to still outdamage mace. I tested this alot now, with different hitboxes and the different traits, etc. and unless you’re standing about a mile away, GS pretty much always wins or is at least even. I also prefer GS over Mace for trash mobs in alot of situations, to be honest. So, that’s what I’ll be running.

Not saying you guys are wrong, just saying I can’t reproduce your results in my tests. Everything else seems to work out according to the guide for the most part, though.(damage difference in weapons sets, from build to build, those numbers are definitely reproducable).

It’s not just mace though it’s also 2X Zealot’s Flame which hits pretty kitten hard, combined with 2X Symbol of Faith, along with better symbol upkeep so once that trait is fixed up you gain more from that as well.

I had Dekeyz add Hammer+GS numbers for virtues and radiance builds. They are not very good. Adding retribution in probably would have helped the radiance one but it would still be a fair amount worse.

I have a question – maybe a stupid one, but shouldn’t be (or are?) GS/Mace+Torch better for big bosses like Tequatl and Triple Trouble Wurm which you can hit two times with one swing thanks to cleave? I mean if i read the numbers right scepter is about 7.5% higher in DPS then GS/Mace+Torch but don’t these extra hit compensate for this?
Maybe this is clear to everyone except me, but right now i am unsure if this is the case or not.

For stuff you can hit multiple times like this use gs + mace. For normal stuff though like lupi, bloomhunger, molten duo, etc use scepter.

Thanks for the quick answer – and also for all the work you two put in this guide.

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Here are opinions generated by a condi guard. He hopes they are accurate! They all use focus 5 first then torch for the remainder for consistency.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 14748
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 13742
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 10498

obal.3218:

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Here are opinions generated by a condi guard. He hopes they are accurate! They all use focus 5 first then torch for the remainder for consistency.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 14748
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 13742
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 10498

Thanks, that’s awesome.

If i wanted without UC it’s just taking 10% off? And are the Imgur values with 50% btw? Just thinking usually when I go virtues it’s more or less for MoC. So 9543 with the AH build and 12492 for the ZHVirt setup?

Really appreciate it, I know it’s silly but I was curious… still better than necro! :b Seems safe enough to suggest to a new player struggling with things as long as it’s not all one shots they’re dying to anyways. Better than wasting gold on gear they’ll swap out once they get the hang of it.

Jerus.4350:

obal.3218:

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Here are opinions generated by a condi guard. He hopes they are accurate! They all use focus 5 first then torch for the remainder for consistency.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 14748
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 13742
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 10498

Thanks, that’s awesome.

If i wanted without UC it’s just taking 10% off? And are the Imgur values with 50% btw? Just thinking usually when I go virtues it’s more or less for MoC. So 9543 with the AH build and 12492 for the ZHVirt setup?

Really appreciate it, I know it’s silly but I was curious… still better than necro! :b Seems safe enough to suggest to a new player struggling with things as long as it’s not all one shots they’re dying to anyways. Better than wasting gold on gear they’ll swap out once they get the hang of it.

You have to divide the direct by 1.1 but the numbers I had were with condi added in so it wouldn’t be right.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 15120
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 14491
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (No UC) – 13340
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 11016
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (No UC) – 10114

GS + Mace/Torch (50% UC) – 15321
Scepter (50% UC and 16 hit smites) – 16977

Condi Guard – IT’S OVER 9000!!!!!

obal.3218:

Jerus.4350:

obal.3218:

Jerus.4350:

Ok, this one is purely if you find yourself bored and curious like me

But, AH build… I know I know, but with the stat changes and all that, it’s certainly a loss, but doesn’t seem like it’d be as much as it was previously. I was screwing around with that 5guard nonsense and had to give a friend a guard build, they were nervous so I suggested to just go AH… and well I forgot to swap it back out afterwards, that said it still seemed to do pretty well. So I’m curious what kind of loss the full ez-mode of guardian is now? Mace/focus + Hammer rotation w/ honor/valor/zeal.

I know it’s a silly question but I’m curious after seeing myself still do pretty well (granted I’m aware of the weird damage situation with Symbolic Avenger which certainly skewed my view seeing numbers).

Here are opinions generated by a condi guard. He hopes they are accurate! They all use focus 5 first then torch for the remainder for consistency.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 14748
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 13742
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 10498

Thanks, that’s awesome.

If i wanted without UC it’s just taking 10% off? And are the Imgur values with 50% btw? Just thinking usually when I go virtues it’s more or less for MoC. So 9543 with the AH build and 12492 for the ZHVirt setup?

Really appreciate it, I know it’s silly but I was curious… still better than necro! :b Seems safe enough to suggest to a new player struggling with things as long as it’s not all one shots they’re dying to anyways. Better than wasting gold on gear they’ll swap out once they get the hang of it.

You have to divide the direct by 1.1 but the numbers I had were with condi added in so it wouldn’t be right.

Zeal/Radiance/Honor – 14748
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 13742
Zeal/Honor/Virtues (No UC) – 12591
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (50% UC) – 10498
Valor (AH)/Honor/Virtues (No UC) – 9597

GS + Mace/Torch (50% UC) – 15321
Scepter (50% UC and 16 hit smites) – 16444

Condi Guard – IT’S OVER 9000!!!!!

Just a little confused, how did it go up from the spreadsheets on the front page?

She made a bunch of changes to calcs to improve them since the patch. EA was also not in the calcs and she added that now. Stuff went up from both those things. The ones in the link are old but still relevant to compare against. I’m looking into condi guard now and might put up a new sheet showing group and solo at 30s/15s/10s vs boss and vs mobs (3 targets).

Nice, thanks for the reply as always.

I just noticed the spreadsheet had absolute resolution instead of supreme justice for the virtues hammer build. I updated my post above with new amounts. It’s a bit better now. I gave the rest a once over and it looks ok.

I am pretty new to this game, and i am only 50 lvl now, can you please say me what build should i use?

You will want to eventually get to this. I don’t know how they changed leveling and unlocking stuff but I’d just say go into zeal and radiance first then virtues. Get retreat, wall of reflection, and feel my wrath as soon as you can. Get power, precision, ferocity gear.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fen.gw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvVAQNAR5flsAhShYvQwZIQQEHxDVOFbxqwuBvwjWDgGoeB-TxRBABXt%2Fo8DPdP59EAe4AKAwFLgS1fMTJYAgDgf%2FNf7bf%2F93ff%2B5nf%2B5n3v%2Fe%2Bvn%2FbpAiYYF-e

Thank you very much for your answer!

Hey obal I’m quite new to guardian as I’ve recently just tomed one up to 80 out of interest in the class and I’m absolutely loving it after reading your guide. But I’m curious, how do you think guardians fair up against other classes in terms of dps? Ele, thief, warrior, etc.

They are in the upper middle in terms of dps across all classes.

For the Mace/Torch rotation, do you need to use the Torch 4 throw ability or just leave the flames on your character?

You should use the second part of it always since it will add a lot of damage.

May I ask why Kindled Zeal instead of Binding Jeopardy? Does the added condition damage outdamage the vulnerability stacks considering you will be spamming Virtue of Justice due to Radiance specialization?

Vero.7013:

May I ask why Kindled Zeal instead of Binding Jeopardy? Does the added condition damage outdamage the vulnerability stacks considering you will be spamming Virtue of Justice due to Radiance specialization?

You only spam VoJ on trash as you get the quick recharges, on a boss you don’t. You don’t really need to build for trash though outside of blinds/reflects, they’re typically pushovers (maybe stab if you feel like clearing inquest technicians?). Over time your passive VoJ will outweigh the active when you’re not getting the consistent refreshes (so boss fights) and that’s why you stick with just making it more potent.

That said you’re taking Zealous Blade outside of Scepter and Hammer builds, in both cases you can get extra vuln from the immob, but I’m sure Obal’s taken a look at that and found it’s just not enough (4s duration vs 15 and 20s cooldowns).

As a question of curiosity Obal, do you happen to have calculation on the potential of Retribution + Focus vs the optimal Radiant Fire + Torch? Just curious as I find myself using that a decent amount as that block is ohh so sweet.

Vero.7013:

May I ask why Kindled Zeal instead of Binding Jeopardy? Does the added condition damage outdamage the vulnerability stacks considering you will be spamming Virtue of Justice due to Radiance specialization?

You won’t be using F1 on bosses. With a 30s rotation and using zealot’s embrace it’s over 1k dps loss for a few stacks more vuln so it’s not really worth it. For trash it would be good but that dies fast anyway.

Jerus.4350:

As a question of curiosity Obal, do you happen to have calculation on the potential of Retribution + Focus vs the optimal Radiant Fire + Torch? Just curious as I find myself using that a decent amount as that block is ohh so sweet.

I can’t run numbers for Retribution correctly. Only justice is programmed in so I can’t get the retal from the other 2 so I added in an additional 2 voj to compensate which skews it in retributions favor. It is skewing it more since triggering voj in the calc doesn’t stop it from adding in passive procs too so the number is inflated. It comes out to 13045 so it seems bad with all those additional burns being added that you won’t get.

For GS + Mace/X
Radiant Fire Torch – 15293
Radiant Fire Focus – 13004

Why the focus on using virtues? I guess it may be a fringe thing but I almost always play with Engi’s who will keep blasts rolling meaning lots of Area retal. Either way sounds like it’s not a big enough difference to really get concerned about swapping.

Using virtues gives you retal

obal.3218:

Using virtues gives you retal

Aye, I mean I understand that, just I guess I was looking at the other options more. Like I said I’m getting a lot of Area Retal in the groups I run through blasts as part of rotations inside my near constant light fields. I was mainly curious if I should really try and remember to swap the trait when I go focus, but it sounds like it’s not that big of a deal.

It would probably be better for you to take retribution then if you have other sources of retal other than spamming your virtues like you said.