Guild Wars 2

Hey guys,

Still trying to find a good set up for the guardian. I was just goofing around with build craft and had to stop and think about this build.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|1.1c.h8|c.1c.h1m.d.1c.h15|1n.71g.1n.71g.1n.71h.1n.71h.1n.7d.1n.7d|1n.64.1n.64.1n.64.1n.64.1n.64.1i.64|0.0.u26b.u28b.a2|40.1|v.18.19.16.1i|e

The problem with this build, is in a PvP environment, you won’t be able to take anyone out, and as soon as they find out they aren’t getting anywhere, they’ll just run, and as a guardian, you have no reliable means of catching them.

Yeah, but if you are doing group pvp you could support your allies alot which would make them want to target you because of your high support.

I generally want to do group. If I roam I switch to Healway build. I guess I could switch to consecrations for point defense or go two shouts + wall of relfection.

This is actually sorta how I run my guardian, but alot tankier. I also use hammer instead of sword/focus. This video is one of the first ones I made for my channel and my only small man one that I have uploaded atm but it shows my build in action.

I noticed that at 1:55 your health gets refilled. Is it thanks to another player doing combo fields?

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

The problem with this build, is in a PvP environment, you won’t be able to take anyone out, and as soon as they find out they aren’t getting anywhere, they’ll just run, and as a guardian, you have no reliable means of catching them.

You would be surprised at the amount of people kill (1v1, 1v2 even) with my full heal/support build simply because they decide not to run and fight to the bitter end. A lot of people have more pride than brains. Quite a bit of the time they Alt-F4 or invite me to their party to talk kitten. I just call laugh at them and tell them how bad do you have to be to let a guardian who hits ~700 damage per attack beat them (no real condi damage either) and they usually rage quit.

Source: 8,500 WvW kills

Having ran several defense oriented builds in PVP, I can confirm (At least in SPVP and WVW) that having a good defense can honestly be a really good offense.

To be clear, I’m not talking about a stereotypical bunker build, where I use a hammer / GS. I’m talking more of a healer / tank approach to things.

Staff and Shield/Mace, is what I run, in full clerics. All about healing. You’d expect players to be smart enough to run away when they feel like they’re not getting anywhere. Hell, I’ve been kitteny sometimes and /emote in WvW while a couple guys are beating on me.

Sometimes, if someone’s emoting while you’re fighting them, it’s actually a good idea to disengage. Is my build OP? I don’t honestly think so, no. I’m a bit less tanky than other defensive builds, but the amount of healing I can pull off is amazing. (I consider healing defensive, yeah.)

I mean, Mace/Shield + Staff has a lot of healing skills as it is. Combined with healing symbols, altruistic healing, dodge roll healing (+Stamina refill on kills) a battle, which in GW2 is normally quick and furious, becomes a war of attrition.

The downside is that yes, I won’t be able to kill enemies on my own. (Unless they refuse to disengage, thinking I’ll run out of heals.) But the upside is, I don’t honestly PVP much on my own. Even when faced with 3 or 4 enemies, I can, most of the time, escape if things become much.

My build’s not about killing fast, and being unkillable. My build’s about stalling for time, and dragging out a battle. In a 10vs10 battle, 2 or 3 will be able to kill me. (Sometimes more, rarely less) That effectively makes it a 9 vs 7/8.

In RPGs, you’re taught to kill the enemy healer as fast as possible to prevent them from protecting/healing your teammates, but what if that healer is extremely capable of taking damage and healing it, as well as escaping. My build doesn’t rely heavily on boon upkeep, so even stripping boons doesn’t really guarantee an easy kill. (Since most people say strip necros are a bunker’s worst nightmare)

Essentially, I play as a worthless distraction that at the same time, it’s not smart to ignore. I’ll jump into frontlines, soak up as much damage as possible, and either die, or survive. Doesn’t matter to me, because if I can distract 5 people for 10 seconds, that’s 5 less people to attack my allies for a whole 10 seconds.

My favorite is throwing a Sanctuary in the middle of an enemy mob, diving into it, and locking down as long as possible. (Then either Shelter-ing or RF-ing right back out.) The average player isn’t exactly prepared to fully deal with Sanctuary. Sometimes necros are smart enough to fear me, sometimes eles throw tons of AOE. But for the most part it’s Warriors and Guardians and Thieves going “Maybe if I use a leap attack it’ll work!”

So, yes, long post. But my answer is an emphatic yes. A good defense can make a killer offense, especially if played right. A lot of people don’t like the idea of dragging a battle out, but I think it’s a good idea. I’ll take a war of attrition over a burst DPS fest. Doesn’t help that most of my healing can actually come from doing damage, too. (Symbols, mace attacks.) So I can heal and do damage. VERY small damage, but it will add up against people less defensible.

I’m not ashamed of saying that while the enemy is kicking my kitten I’m telling my allies my position so they can flank and destroy said enemies. I’m just a guardian. I can’t chase that well, so the easiest way to survive a fight with me is to walk away. I have no skills to catch you and I don’t care if you run. Wasting someone’s time and forcing them to disengage is a small victory, especially if you’re assault or defending a keep.

Agree With Sokina on alot of levels. I play a staff and sword/shield guardian full clerics and am at about 1.5k healing power, even though my toughness is only 1.6k I stay alive forever and especially in group battles it makes a huge difference because the amount of heals I have means there’s almost always at least one ready to use. Not to mention with that much healing power the support book is so OP.

By yourself I think the idea of defense equals offence holds less weight but when I’m rolling in a party and I keep the entire party alive not mention with 45% boon duration I can almost give perma 12 stacks of might -2seconds.. so in that instance defence is offence because the damage output of the people around me,because of me more then makes up for my lack of damage.

I wondered if anyone knew or could quote a source that showed if armor had diminishing returns or if it was less effective after a certain amount.

redslion.9675:

I noticed that at 1:55 your health gets refilled. Is it thanks to another player doing combo fields?

One of the guardians I run with uses Tome of Courage. He uses its heals on us depending on if our heals are down or we are stacking alot of conditions. Very useful at the right times.

Sokina.8041:

I’m not ashamed of saying that while the enemy is kicking my kitten I’m telling my allies my position so they can flank and destroy said enemies. I’m just a guardian. I can’t chase that well, so the easiest way to survive a fight with me is to walk away. I have no skills to catch you and I don’t care if you run. Wasting someone’s time and forcing them to disengage is a small victory, especially if you’re assault or defending a keep.

Well, we do have skills to catch people… Judge’s Intervention, Leap of Faith, Flashing Blade, Zealot’s Embrace, Binding Blade, Ring of Warding, Line of Warding, Chains of Light all can work together to make a solid attempt at catching someone. A Guardian is an arbiter of justice and nobody escapes Justice! :p

That build website still confuses the hell out of me.

Defense wins championships (does the dirty bird)

Mattamis.8143:

Defense wins championships (does the dirty bird)

That’s a myth, my friend

http://www.sbnation.com/2012-super-bowl/2012/1/31/2756651/stats-new-england-patriots-new-york-giants-xlvi

Hey Artemis,

Loving AD&D!

This is my setup http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.1g.h2|1.1g.h2|1n.71h.1n.71h.1c.71g.1n.71g.1n.71j.1n.a7|21k.d19.1g.64.1g.64.1g.64.1g.64.8c.64|0.0.u56b.u28b.a2|0.0|v.16.18.19.1i|e

The point of diminishing returns start at approx 2925 armor, from there you will see your dam reduction go down hill. If you are an experienced dodger then it is fine, but im not so i need my armor and dam reduction that is why i fight with hammer and boon duration.

I hope this is something you can use

Very close to my Boon guard build except I use clerics armour and berserker trinkets to give it that bit of damage when it comes to killing people (74% crit dmg means mighty blow hits 3k+)

A build like yours is very good for zerg busting as the retaliation you can provide will make a zerg melt itself as your weather the storm. When fighting zergs I would recommend swapping out one of the shouts for WoR. Then its pretty much complete. You don’t need the higher dmg out put if you use the enemies own power against him…. is this a Tai chi build?!?!!?

Blazin Blunt.6908:

Hey Artemis,

Loving AD&D!

This is my setup http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.1g.h2|1.1g.h2|1n.71h.1n.71h.1c.71g.1n.71g.1n.71j.1n.a7|21k.d19.1g.64.1g.64.1g.64.1g.64.8c.64|0.0.u56b.u28b.a2|0.0|v.16.18.19.1i|e

The point of diminishing returns start at approx 2925 armor, from there you will see your dam reduction go down hill. If you are an experienced dodger then it is fine, but im not so i need my armor and dam reduction that is why i fight with hammer and boon duration.

I hope this is something you can use

Thanks Blazin, can you source where you learned about the diminishing returns on armor? I’ve searched the web and only find posts about linearity and no diminishing returns.

Armor has diminishing returns. Just google EHP and you will see it in the big thread on guru. Even after reading it, I did the math to make sure that its true.

Now the diminishing returns aren’t big. I mean having 3200 armor doesn’t mean you completely ruined your other stats. But for a min/max’r they wouldn’t stack it so high to make sure they are utilizing the other stats fully with their build.

The other thing about armor/hp is its a crutch or a way to supplement a defensive play style. Its not the end all be all to determine survivability. Dodging and negating damage (which is easy for a guardian) is what matters and that is where your skill comes in in timing those things.

Thanks. I read possibly the same thread if not similar about effective health and I don’t think it really said there was diminishing returns but that in trying to focus primarily on one stat would prove less effective. They gave an equation too.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|2.1c.0|0.0.0.0.0.0|1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x.1c.7x|1n.9c.1n.9c.1n.9c.1n.9c.1n.9c.1c.9c|0.0.u56b.u23b.a2|3t.1|v.18.16.19.1i|e

This build seems to be what I am going to push for if I choose to go bunker since all stats are linear.

He does says there are diminishing returns in the thread. There are others in posts who pretty much confirmed it hits around the 2900-2925 range. I came to the same conclusion when I calculated it.

Be careful when you use that website it still bugs out. If you switch gear around too often sometimes the stats will not change properly.

“Bunker” in WWW works differently then tPvP. In tPvP you have to do some form of damage, and if you are going against another mid bunker guardian then you basically have to use control to get him off your point because if you are both skilled you won’t kill each other.

For WWW, a bunker build that utilizies AoE Blinds and AoE control is helpful which would include GS, Sword, Focus, and Shield.

Blasino.3128:

He does says there are diminishing returns in the thread. There are others in posts who pretty much confirmed it hits around the 2900-2925 range. I came to the same conclusion when I calculated it.

Be careful when you use that website it still bugs out. If you switch gear around too often sometimes the stats will not change properly.

“Bunker” in WWW works differently then tPvP. In tPvP you have to do some form of damage, and if you are going against another mid bunker guardian then you basically have to use control to get him off your point because if you are both skilled you won’t kill each other.

For WWW, a bunker build that utilizies AoE Blinds and AoE control is helpful which would include GS, Sword, Focus, and Shield.

Do you have a link? I found two possible threads from gw2guru but they confirmed there wasn’t a soft cap or diminishing returns where if I increased my armor by 100 I would only see 90 and it would gradually get less and less the higher I went. They did speak to effective health based on starting health and type of armor available.

Don’t know if this is relevant but today in tpvp, high defense was the best offence. I was defending a point when a ranger and thief came. The ranger stayed back while the D/D thief came running against me. The thief was quite slippery but I got him down and suddenly I noticed that the ranger died as well. Wanna guess how? Retaliation. I have VERY high retaliation up-time with GS and virtues trait-line. I merely outhealed both the ranger and the thief while the ranger couldn’t take the constant 400 dmg stream that he suffered because of his high attack speed.

People still believe on high armor? just make max damage you can with max vit you can get from gear and your done for action.

Vitality > Armor

P.S search on forum/game what is the diference of heavy armor and light armor at the end you will see that invest in high armor its not that great.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/

Here is where he talks about the diminishing returns:

The formula implies that to reduce damage by 50%, you’ll have to double your current armor.
Adding 100 armor for (note the diminishing returns)
a soldier with 2127 armor gives 4.49% damage reduction
an adventurer with 1980 armor gives 4.81% damage reduction
a scholar with 1836 armor gives 5.17% damage reduction

Aeolus.3615:

People still believe on high armor? just make max damage you can with max vit you can get from gear and your done for action.

Vitality > Armor

P.S search on forum/game what is the diference of heavy armor and light armor at the end you will see that invest in high armor its not that great.

Terrible advice. You need to get your facts straight.

Vitality is good against condition builds.
Armor is good against everything else.
If you want a bunker, get both.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Aeolus.3615:

People still believe on high armor? just make max damage you can with max vit you can get from gear and your done for action.

Vitality > Armor

P.S search on forum/game what is the diference of heavy armor and light armor at the end you will see that invest in high armor its not that great.

Terrible advice. You need to get your facts straight.

Vitality is good against condition builds.
Armor is good against everything else.
If you want a bunker, get both.

Well bunker build i imagine something like 14k-16khealth with 3.6k armor and 1.2k+ at healing, this stats are the worse if you want to wvw, guardian will get so slow that when facing a good ranged class wont be able to get near.
Myself when playing low lvl character on wvw always choose bunkers for a free kill if they cant hit they wont regen, burst them 1st and flee let them waste they support skils and then its a easy kill, or in group make a massive KD combo due to low HP he will die fast, this is pretty effective while pulling bunkers from wals also.

Its still terrible advice and you can stack heaps of toughness and still hit hard.

And i dont get why a toughness stacked guardian has to be any slower, as you try to imply. Or why he has to have low hp.

No, bunkers will have more health than that, and having 3.6k armor is overkill.

@Brut, I think he means the DPS will be lower.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

No, bunkers will have more health than that, and having 3.6k armor is overkill.

@Brut, I think he means the DPS will be lower.

Probably!

Its still incorrect that a char with lots of toughness has low dps and a low healthpool.

Just my idea of what most guardians use with mace/shield, and yes most hit real weak.
(its a good concept build but let it stay just on pve side lol)

really tought bunkers would go for armor and heal power. (worse stats imo for pvp)