Guild Wars 2

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

That’s totally your perspective. I thought since BWE3 that new was really amazing. On both PVE and PVP conent… Don’t just look it from solo point of view… But consider the the group scenario. A well played combo of DH maw , Reaper’s elite elite and Reaper Shroud #5 , mesmer stun or warrior hammer or whatever could insta lock down a whole team in PVP and break really fast the shield of bosses in PVE . Considering all the above I think it’s fair to increase it’s cd.

xrisomilia.5769:

That’s totally your perspective. I thought since BWE3 that new was really amazing. On both PVE and PVP conent… Don’t just look it from solo point of view… But consider the the group scenario. A well played combo of DH maw , Reaper’s elite elite and Reaper Shroud #5 , mesmer stun or warrior hammer or whatever could insta lock down a whole team in PVP and break really fast the shield of bosses in PVE . Considering all the above I think it’s fair to increase it’s cd.

So why not nerfing mesmers and reapers too? That’s also balance.

xrisomilia.5769:

That’s totally your perspective. I thought since BWE3 that new was really amazing. On both PVE and PVP conent… Don’t just look it from solo point of view… But consider the the group scenario. A well played combo of DH maw , Reaper’s elite elite and Reaper Shroud #5 , mesmer stun or warrior hammer or whatever could insta lock down a whole team in PVP and break really fast the shield of bosses in PVE . Considering all the above I think it’s fair to increase it’s cd.

It wasn’t my intention to discuss how fair these nerf are (I think however that were a bit too hasty, maybe a little more meditation would have helped), but if you read the forum this summer you have certainly saw of this elite spec wasn’t well received by the majority, it’s not my point of view: people went as far as bashing Karl for this.
Now instead I see a lot of people calling for nerfs, maybe i’m wrong but I didn’t see any of these in BW2 and BW3.

Reapers were the only ones that souldn’t get any nerfs since the macro class and the guardians were the only ones that were always left behind. I’m with you at the partial need of mesmers nerf but they already got needed since their OP elite got damage decrease . But again in group scenario with chronomacer’s time reduction buff the cd need won’t be really noticed. Like I’ve said in other posts people need to think our of their boxes and think in group scenarios since you play an MMO and more precisely an MMO that has as a goal to make group content a must. That’s why before Elite Specialiasation Hero Points was decreased was really awsoeme, because it was challenging and Anet was forcing you to play in groups, but that’s a talk for another post.

Personally, I wouldn’t care if DH was the most overpowered thing in the game, I still won’t use or like it. It’s not a power issue for me, it’s a design issue.

To answer your question OP, it got buffed repeatedly over the beta.

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

The complaints about the DH were because the DH was really bad, until quite recently. It’s okay now, but I would never call it a top spec.

The people crying about traps are just plain bad at the game. One of the traps already got a substantial and fair nerf, but now there’s nothing OP about these things.

Pingu.9501:

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

The complaints about the DH were because the DH was really bad, until quite recently. It’s okay now, but I would never call it a top spec.

The people crying about traps are just plain bad at the game. One of the traps already got a substantial and fair nerf, but now there’s nothing OP about these things.

This ^

Top end players tried out traps & pretty much all of them agreed they would never use them at high end play.

If Anet really thought the traps provided too much burst a much more elegant solution would have been to reduce the physical damage then tack on bleeds.

This would have reduced the burst thus negating the need for duration nerfs/CD nerfs while at the same time made them slightly better for carrion/sinister/celestial builds.

(given that Anet didn’t even comment as to why they did the nerf & the fact that high end players dismissed the use of traps for high end play most people I know are thinking they just caved to the crying low end bad players and ended up doing a rushed fix)

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

Because DH traps got a GIGANTIC buff after BWE3 that was never tested in a large scale environment.

And because people didn’t know what the kitten they were talking about when they were claiming that it’s hard to hit people with traps. It’s trivial to consistently land trap skills.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Pingu.9501:

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

The complaints about the DH were because the DH was really bad, until quite recently. It’s okay now, but I would never call it a top spec.

The people crying about traps are just plain bad at the game. One of the traps already got a substantial and fair nerf, but now there’s nothing OP about these things.

This ^

Top end players tried out traps & pretty much all of them agreed they would never use them at high end play.

If Anet really thought the traps provided too much burst a much more elegant solution would have been to reduce the physical damage then tack on bleeds.

This would have reduced the burst thus negating the need for duration nerfs/CD nerfs while at the same time made them slightly better for carrion/sinister/celestial builds.

(given that Anet didn’t even comment as to why they did the nerf & the fact that high end players dismissed the use of traps for high end play most people I know are thinking they just caved to the crying low end bad players and ended up doing a rushed fix)

Problem is: we dont have ranked matches so they nerfed it because we can only play unranked. In unranked ppl test their build so many players tested DH,many scrub opponents cried about traps (maybe they haven’t learned about dodge button) but when ranked come you will see DH’s real place, I mean a good spot.

How did DH go from laughable in its preview to overpowered at launch? It’s pretty simple really. You start with problematic base mechanics and in order to make it viable, just keep buffing the crap out of it until people use it. It doesn’t fix the inherent flaw, just masks it or completely removes a limiting factor.

Here are a few examples (forums are slow, so this is from memory):

• Trap arm time 0.25 or more was shaved off the time from the start of the cast to when the trap would trigger. I believe this was off the arm time, but maybe it was on the cast time. That means the first trap triggers sooner and you can stack multiple traps faster. Instead of being a trap, they’ve become a point-blank well.
• Trap damage Initially no one used traps. They were too weak for how hard it was to get them to trigger. The damage was increased, increasing the reward for managing the setup. When the setup was still clunky, it was reduced, but the damage reward wasn’t adjusted down to match the lower risk.
• Spear of Justice The skill was decent originally, but didn’t mesh with the 1200 range of the longbow. This was increased, as was the projectile speed. However, the designed counter, which was out-ranging its leash becomes less valid. And because this was an over-time ability, it had a fast cast. Now it’s unblockable (no idea why), and it has a chain with a pull ability. So now you have a nearly unavoidable 1200 range pull.
• Utility Traits One of the big complaints is that dragonhunter utility was lacking and clashed with the Virtues line, which is a key source of utility. A number of traits were modified giving anti-CC or condition removal, CC durations increased, and virtue cooldowns were reduced.
• Boons on Traps This change wasn’t thought through. A boon was thrown on each trap, in addition to all the other buffs to traps, just to be thematic. Some boon selections make a decent ability overly powerful. Boons should have only been added to weaker traps.

Combine all that and you have too much in one trait line. When you consider how powerful the Valor line is for PvP and most other core lines are comparatively weak, it’s easy to add Dragonhunter in place of a core trait line with few trade-offs.

Without a change to core design, dragonhunter will be ridiculous damage for average skill PvPers until that damage is brought in line and it loses viability in PvP due to poor base mechanics.

To truly fix dragonhunter, longbow, the virtues, and traps need better synergy or at least not work against each other, and the trait line needs to give up some utility. Other core trait lines need buffed in order to compete and Valor could probably stand to be toned down a little, especially Monk’s Focus.

> longbow, the virtues, and traps need better synergy or at least not work against each other

How exactly do you feel that these mechanics don’t synergise well together?

Sandzibar.5134:

> longbow, the virtues, and traps need better synergy or at least not work against each other

How exactly do you feel that these mechanics don’t synergise well together?

It’s the traps themselves that don’t synergize well with the Longbow. Unless the enemy is constantly closing in on you, you have to stalk them from short range to keep traps going off on cooldown, meaning you give up 6% damage done from your build that requires you to deal damage from farther than 600 range. If you opt to stay beyond 600 and nothing pursues you, your traps may as well not exist. Traps synergize best with melee type weapons, since they deploy at your feet and don’t require melee to go out of their way to get them triggered.

SirServed.5693:

Sandzibar.5134:

> longbow, the virtues, and traps need better synergy or at least not work against each other

How exactly do you feel that these mechanics don’t synergise well together?

It’s the traps themselves that don’t synergize well with the Longbow. Unless the enemy is constantly closing in on you, you have to stalk them from short range to keep traps going off on cooldown, meaning you give up 6% damage done from your build that requires you to deal damage from farther than 600 range. If you opt to stay beyond 600 and nothing pursues you, your traps may as well not exist. Traps synergize best with melee type weapons, since they deploy at your feet and don’t require melee to go out of their way to get them triggered.

I would add that this is only really apparent in PvE boss fights. In OWPvE and PvP, there’s enough movement that things just run into your traps, but in PvE, you’re trying to stay at range to maintain your PoS buff, then you have to run in to use trap, then run out again if you want to use Longbow more. It’s very awkward, but ultimately, probably something we’re stuck with (especially since traps work fine in every other area of gameplay).

Sandzibar.5134:

> longbow, the virtues, and traps need better synergy or at least not work against each other

How exactly do you feel that these mechanics don’t synergise well together?

Longbow and associated traits focus on keeping players at range (knockback, increased damage at range). Spear of Justice and Wings of Resolve focus on keeping players close. Traps could help keep players at range, but are placed in melee and the DH doesn’t have any disengage to help take advantage of that once you lure an opponent into a trap.

The myriad of buffs to damage and utility over the course of the BWEs have masked that.

Isarii.2804:

I would add that this is only really apparent in PvE boss fights. In OWPvE and PvP, there’s enough movement that things just run into your traps, but in PvE, you’re trying to stay at range to maintain your PoS buff, then you have to run in to use trap, then run out again if you want to use Longbow more. It’s very awkward, but ultimately, probably something we’re stuck with (especially since traps work fine in every other area of gameplay).

Even then, in open world it’s faster to just rush them with a GS. Leap of Faith and drop traps, drop symbol and then WW. You will either gank one guy or a group of them. To me, the bow only serves to provide a safety cushion for viable dps when melee is too dangerous.

SirServed.5693:

Isarii.2804:

I would add that this is only really apparent in PvE boss fights. In OWPvE and PvP, there’s enough movement that things just run into your traps, but in PvE, you’re trying to stay at range to maintain your PoS buff, then you have to run in to use trap, then run out again if you want to use Longbow more. It’s very awkward, but ultimately, probably something we’re stuck with (especially since traps work fine in every other area of gameplay).

Even then, in open world it’s faster to just rush them with a GS. Leap of Faith and drop traps, drop symbol and then WW. You will either gank one guy or a group of them. To me, the bow only serves to provide a safety cushion for viable dps when melee is too dangerous.

Sure – melee is always more rewarding in GW2. That’s irrelevant to the point about Longbow/Trap synergy though.

Ragnarox.9601:

xrisomilia.5769:

That’s totally your perspective. I thought since BWE3 that new was really amazing. On both PVE and PVP conent… Don’t just look it from solo point of view… But consider the the group scenario. A well played combo of DH maw , Reaper’s elite elite and Reaper Shroud #5 , mesmer stun or warrior hammer or whatever could insta lock down a whole team in PVP and break really fast the shield of bosses in PVE . Considering all the above I think it’s fair to increase it’s cd.

So why not nerfing mesmers and reapers too? That’s also balance.

Because, DHs cause problems in SPVP massively, SPecially with some of the bunkerish builds with DH damage, Where Reapers cant even use their Weapon in SPVP cause they’ll get wrecked, n Mesmers i dunno i dont think enough play em to get it nerfed.

DH is currently a very bandwagoned proffession currently, its going to attract alot of attention onto the proffession specially as its been seen throughout all tiers of play so its Imbalances shine alot more.

Isarii.2804:

Sure – melee is always more rewarding in GW2. That’s irrelevant to the point about Longbow/Trap synergy though.

The question I would ask the team is: Did they design the traps with intentions to actually have synergy with the Longbow itself or to simply be a needed addition to the profession? If it’s the former, I’d say someone miscalculated. It’s an Elite spec granting you 5 abilities which require your enemy to actively pursue you or no dice. If it’s the latter, someone nailed it and deserves cheesecake. The Longbow works well with the existing heal, utility, and elite skills that aren’t traps, whereas the traps themselves work well with weapon choices that aren’t the Longbow.

Having tools for range and tools for in close is FLEXABILITY.

Stacking the holy crap out of one range category isn’t the only kind of good game design.

Dragonhunter effectiveness is as much because closing with them will get you killed (traps) as it is that they will burn you to the ground at range (longbow). They force opponents to make real choices.

Nike.2631:

Having tools for range and tools for in close is FLEXABILITY.

Stacking the holy crap out of one range category isn’t the only kind of good game design.

Dragonhunter effectiveness is as much because closing with them will get you killed (traps) as it is that they will burn you to the ground at range (longbow). They force opponents to make real choices.

One dodge nullifies traps. So 1 problem down. Especially if you are trapper than prepare to die really fast after 5 sec of block.

Ragnarox.9601:

One dodge nullifies traps.

People say that, and yet traps are proving so devastatingly effective in the real world they’ve needed 2 nerfs in 2 days.

To answer the title, because people asked for everything without realizing the effectiveness of traps in a team setting; the performance of DH as a whole. I’ve talking to a few people in ts3 prepatch and we agreed that DH will be borderlined OP. If not, top 5 on a team. So no the entire community didn’t exactly think DH sucked. The QQ was just loud.

Don’t think that the forums are always right. The only thing the community is right about, that’s reiterated constantly, is spec functionality. Now, the finished product is just darn fun to play. DH isn’t the best 1v1 build (definitely not) so this only contributed to the misunderstood prowess of the spec.

And that’s because a “DH Sucks!” post was created post patch. People still didn’t know how to play the spec properly…

For the record, the biggest item that makes DH strong is prestacking traps on a point, long enough for the icd to replace the triggered traps in a fight.

DH isn’t overpowered in higher tier pvp, I think we’re just right compared to the Scrapper, Mesmer, Rev and Reaper powercreep. It’s just the soloQ players not realizing the DH trap mechanic strategy.

Nike.2631:

Ragnarox.9601:

One dodge nullifies traps.

People say that, and yet traps are proving so devastatingly effective in the real world they’ve needed 2 nerfs in 2 days.

If I know where are traps dropped and dodge them all without dmg, why does 99% players do opposite. I played more than 500 matches in pvp and I don’t see improvements, ppl just walk trought traps mindlessly. Traps are not the problem here, problem is lots of unranked scrubs. ppl are not willing to learn counterattack they just whine about nerfs all the time. So they actually deserve to die by traps, I have no sympathy for them.

SirServed.5693:

Isarii.2804:

Sure – melee is always more rewarding in GW2. That’s irrelevant to the point about Longbow/Trap synergy though.

The question I would ask the team is: Did they design the traps with intentions to actually have synergy with the Longbow itself or to simply be a needed addition to the profession? If it’s the former, I’d say someone miscalculated. It’s an Elite spec granting you 5 abilities which require your enemy to actively pursue you or no dice. If it’s the latter, someone nailed it and deserves cheesecake. The Longbow works well with the existing heal, utility, and elite skills that aren’t traps, whereas the traps themselves work well with weapon choices that aren’t the Longbow.

That’s not true at all Spear of Justice along with Longbow knockback allows you to ping pong people through Test of faith or just pull people onto your traps to trigger them.

Drekor.5217:

or just pull people onto your traps to trigger them.

I believe that is the sole reason why the pull was created.

Vikkela.7261:

Drekor.5217:

or just pull people onto your traps to trigger them.

I believe that is the sole reason why the pull was created.

Well, the fact that we had a big glowy chain connecting them to us did sort of suggest we ought to be able to tug on said chain…

Nike.2631:

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

Because DH traps got a GIGANTIC buff after BWE3 that was never tested in a large scale environment.

And because people didn’t know what the kitten they were talking about when they were claiming that it’s hard to hit people with traps. It’s trivial to consistently land trap skills.

Well honestly, pervious to the dragon hunter they were right. It is really annoying hitting people with the existing ranger and thief traps. The guardian on the other hand can just walk up to with 10 seconds of blocking effects, stopping you from doing anything about it, and then lay the traps wherever he wants, forcing you to either get off point or die instantly.

It just shows that minority of players were right about specializations, those who told ANet they needed to add this content at the cost of base class content so they could have a mechanism for balancing between the two. Without any such mechanism, now they have no choice but to nerf the new mechanics of the specialization or the old mechanics of the base class, not because either of them are overpowered, but because they are overpowered in combination.

Don’t you know, according to Mr. Derv’s philosophy, the Guardian is the sole pillar of the game’s universe. Anything that is suspected or even just alleged to be “overperforming” even slightly will be taken away without trials or else the ENTIRE game will be tilted and collapse. Even things that we touch now have been deemed as corrupted and nerfed to the ground, ask the Trap runes.

Conncept.7638:

Well honestly, pervious to the dragon hunter they were right.

‘Right’ in the sense of claiming that a one-egg omelet isn’t that filling when the person talking to you is holding an ostrich egg in their hand . It was totally inapplicable experience being waved around (sometimes with eyes clenched tightly shut…) instead of looking at the new data.

It is really annoying hitting people with the existing ranger and thief traps.

No class with Signet of Stone (or prolonged stealth) is going to be able to claim they can’t put traps wherever they dang well please. It’s that Ranger traps don’t provide a tangible move-or-die threat. Thief traps are just plain weird in their payload. Maybe that’ll change one day with a balance pass.

Conncept.7638:

Nike.2631:

Heimdallr.7021:

Hi all,
i was just wondering, i’ve seen any sort of complaint about the DH in the guardians community (many of which also true).
These last days after the expansion hit I say instead a lot of complain in pvp targetting DH and their supposedely OP traps.
How that happened?

Because DH traps got a GIGANTIC buff after BWE3 that was never tested in a large scale environment.

And because people didn’t know what the kitten they were talking about when they were claiming that it’s hard to hit people with traps. It’s trivial to consistently land trap skills.

Well honestly, pervious to the dragon hunter they were right. It is really annoying hitting people with the existing ranger and thief traps. The guardian on the other hand can just walk up to with 10 seconds of blocking effects, stopping you from doing anything about it, and then lay the traps wherever he wants, forcing you to either get off point or die instantly.

It just shows that minority of players were right about specializations, those who told ANet they needed to add this content at the cost of base class content so they could have a mechanism for balancing between the two. Without any such mechanism, now they have no choice but to nerf the new mechanics of the specialization or the old mechanics of the base class, not because either of them are overpowered, but because they are overpowered in combination.

10 second of block? where do you get that figure? die instantly? which trap that does that? tell me. Forcing you to get off the point ? well, you know, there’s also the staff elem that can force you to get off the point without even bother walking up to you. What do you want, just stand in one spot and win? or perhaps mitigating damage without using any of your dodge or utility? Jeez, people want to be spooned fed in everything these days. I’ll give you a hint : Trap has CD, no kitten right? and DH also reluctant to leave his personal area, you can use that to your advantage and last but not least:Traps don’t kill, laziness in thinking and/or idiocy does.

To answer OP, all though out the betas we complain because of lack of synergy. If you look back at the “BWE changes” threads we Never asked for buffs to damage, instead stating something is underwhelming and asking for changes to functionality.

We constantly complained that there was no Synergy instead the Devs decided to just buff numbers until we were satisfied, that is what caused the salt. Every Beta we got buffs to damage instead of changing functionality, so when it went live we just accepted the cheesiest specs to prove that the design concept is a fail. (Even post BWE3 we got a flat 7% damage buff and Pure Sight reduced to 6% over 600 range, we are not blind)

The frontrunner for this is the Traps for a Ranged class problem. For a Ranger across all MMOs, and even D&D, Traps are their Melee Option! and anyone that states otherwise is misunderstanding or using flawed logic: They use LB to deal consistent damage until people come melee, then swap to melee weapon and spike them out.

Nike.2631:

Having tools for range and tools for in close is FLEXABILITY.

Finally I want to address this quote because it sounds like a good thing but is actually what disappoints me the most.
Guardian core was designed to be bad at ranged with no weapon and no utilities.
Then the Dragon Hunter was announced with the tag line “a ferocious big-game hunter that specializes in ranged combat and back-line support.”
And then they decided to NOT let us fight from the back because Dragon hunter still has consistent but mediocre ranged damage due to Lack of Ranged Utilities.

And this flexibility comes with a cost: Guardian and ALL of its Elite Specs will Forever be horrible at ranged damage because never will we have a ranged weapon with utilities to support it. We kittened up our only chance.

But hey I do play the dragon hunter as a melee class with pleasure and will forever try to run as cheesy as possible because they made me do it.

I like how they jump straight to the DH throat without seeing the other new guy (aka the revenant) that solows near evry class and survives the crowd, the druid that takes 3 to take 1 down and lets not forghet the DD that can hit and hide more now

quaniesan.8497:

10 second of block?

It’s called an exaggeration, grab a dictionary and look it up. I don’t know the exact figure and clearly you don’t either since you also failed to provide any proof that it isn’t 10 seconds in spite of ignorantly taking the figure as a hard fact. Nonetheless, it gets the point across, the guardians ability to inerrably get in melee range is one of the best qualities of the base class, and it meshes far better with traps than any previous class that had them.

quaniesan.8497:

die instantly? which trap that does that? tell me.

Just Dragon’s Maw and Procession of Blades, barring any other sources of damage, is over 22000 damage without any power scaling, is cast in a half a second, and prevents you from escaping its damage radius. That damage, by itself alone, is capable of killing multiple classes on anything but a tanky build, let alone with more traps and other damage sources.

You see, you suffer from the principle of inverse ignorance, commonly found on the internet, it is the broken illogical thought process that because you don’t know anything about a subject, whatever assumptions you have about it are inherently correct. Here’s your wakeup call, they’re not. Looking at facts, instead of childish open-ended probings one cannot answer, and so expects others cannot likewise answer, (another property of inverse ignorance) the dragonhunter does factually have problematic gameplay that needs to be addressed.

Concept, you simply have no clue about DH! 22.000 DMG by Maw and Procession…have you ever played this Spec? In best case in pvp it is round about 12.000 DMG. Besides that Maw is buggy then hell and you never know if it hits or not, and when the target is just a little bit intelligent, Maw and procession will not hit (fully) due to a dodge (or stab).

Why is everyone complaining about the “so strong” DH??? Playing DH against medium players is very tricky and not easy. To stomp a lot of noobs is of course very easy, but that is valid for every class.

Lejero.4168:

Concept, you simply have no clue about DH! 22.000 DMG by Maw and Procession…have you ever played this Spec? In best case in pvp it is round about 12.000 DMG. Besides that Maw is buggy then hell and you never know if it hits or not, and when the target is just a little bit intelligent, Maw and procession will not hit (fully) due to a dodge (or stab).

Why is everyone complaining about the “so strong” DH??? Playing DH against medium players is very tricky and not easy. To stomp a lot of noobs is of course very easy, but that is valid for every class.

And Everyone is playing Unranked PvP. This includes newbie players who are still trying to grasp rotational strategies and meta mechanics.

Where are all the veteran players QQing about DH? I like seeing new faces but most of these players are inexperienced PvP players.

In all honesty, 99% of the “Dragonhunter is terrible!” is perception, not reality. Personally, I love it. I’ve played a Ranger for over 3,000 hours, loathed Druid and adore Dragonhunter.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

In all honesty, 99% of the “Dragonhunter is terrible!” is perception, not reality. Personally, I love it. I’ve played a Ranger for over 3,000 hours, loathed Druid and adore Dragonhunter.

Im loving the DH also, the funny thing is i got elite spec and im not playin with bow and traps, yest feels awesome.

I did not like the bow, for my play style.

Couldn’t find another thread to post this but Symbol of energy doesn’t proc 5 pulses of vigor. Only 4 from what I can see. Bug?