Guild Wars 2

I spent a lot of time on Dragonhunter last Beta Weekend and I think I know what needs to be done.

It has some great utility, an additional wall of reflection (or absorb or for now), and active moves for utilities is fun.

The only problem with it is THAT IT IS WEAK. As in, it needs buffs, which are coming, but I don’t think they will be enough.

If it were STRONG, the added utilities of Dragonhunter would be nice. But it isn’t. As of right now, I think the only situation in the world where I would take Dragonhunter would be Lava Shaman for some extra reflects.

But we can’t just add more % damage increases to Dragonhunter. Elite specs aren’t meant to be upgrades, but side-grades. So let’s think about how to do this! How can we make Dragonhunter strong, on par with a regular Guardian, without making it simply the best spec in all situations?

Here is why the Dragonhunter traitline is weak:

1. Guardians really need Zeal and Radiance for DPS. These trees have awesome DPS increases. Guardians really, really hate to give up virtues, too, because it offers insane utility.

2. This means, by taking the Dragonhunter tree, you have made a huge sacrifice in terms of DPS and/or utility. We have 3 amazing trees that it hurts to give up (really just 15 radiance and 5 virtues, but those days are over).

3. The Dragonhunter traits don’t currently make up for this loss in any kind of side-grade sort of way. That means its not really worth it to be a Dragonhunter.

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

5. There needs to be a reason to use Longbow. Current traits really don’t do that.

That means that in beta, I could literally turn Dragonhunter off, and sigh with relief as my Guardian became as strong as I expected it to be. There was just no reason to be a dragonhunter over a Guardian.

I am not one to complain without offering a solution, so here it is.

My Dream change to Dragonhunter, that would make me love it as a side-grade to Guardian while still leaving me to play Guardian often as well:

New Trait: Zhaitan’s Bane/ Dragon’s Strength:

-Striking an Enemy with a two-handed weapon increases damage dealt by 2% for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 10 times. (Number not exact. I really don’t want to argue with people about “THAT DAMAGE IS TOO MUCH!” The specific damage increase I am looking for is such that it would be worth slightly less than the 15% crit offered to one-handed weapons in Radiance. So this number should be whatever puts Guardian DPS just a hair below the current maximum now.

-Yes, this would synergize with Whirling Wrath, and various piercing or AoE longbow moves.

-Keep in mind that a ramp-up/stacking mechanic ends up being different than offering a “20% damage increase trait”

-Currently, two-handed weapons deal less damage than one-handed weapons for Guardian. The exception is Greatsword, which deals high burst, but needs a one-handed weapon for sustained DPS. So even offering a trait like this would NOT significantly buff Guardian DPS beyond where it is right now. Please don’t make this whole thread about saying Guardian DPS is high enough. Sure, but not by using exclusively two-handed weapons.

-However, it would allow a Guardian to Wield Hammer or Greatsword with a Longbow off-hand. The longbow would continue to benefit from existing stacks, making it a worthwhile ranged weapon in situations that require swapping between melee and ranged.

-Max DPS with this trait would probably still be Hammer/Greatsword over Longbow, but this would lack any range which raids look to need, and still wouldn’t compete with regular Guardian going GS+Mace.

-It would open up the potential for dropping Radiance in favor of Zeal/Virtues/Dragonhunter for a more supportive build, since radiance becomes a tiny bit less mandatory. This would still come at a huge DPS hit, but it would be more reasonable.

-It would leave a Zeal/Radiance/Dragonhunter option for max DPS with weapons like we have now. Something like Mace/Torch + Greatsword, or Mace/Torch + Longbow. The stacks would just wear off while in the one-handed DPS option if you chose to use the two-handed DPS trait or you, more likely, would skip it in favor of other DPS or utility traits in the Dragonhunter tree.

The new additions actually could make DH viable.

Cripple on F1 procs in addition to Burn effects means you can apply DH’s Cripple to something like GS or Scepter/Sword/Torch builds. You really don’t have to use Bow at all. I still see Bow being utilized for players who prefer that playstyle or that ranged option. Though, I know what you mean about it not being as popular as the other weapon sets. That said a Zerker or Rampage Bow + Scepter user can be surprisingly quite damaging.

Hunter’s Fortification was an absolute must. Trap builds were incredibly vulnerable to conditions as we lost that condi defenses from CoP and Smite Condition we couldn’t even leave the Virtue traitline because of how vulnerable DH was.
Now We have enough condi cleanse to completely leave the Virtue tree if we had to. We can go more selfish by going Zeal+Radiance for damage or go more sustains by choosing Honor+Valor.

Traps with stun effects means people can’t activate that peel skill when a trap is activated. It will make it difficult to avoid traps all together when before, it was quite easy.

Assuming everything above is going to happen, I’m actually excited for this iteration of DH.

You should be looking at radiance valor DH. Burn and condi cleanse on block but lose purging flames

valor virtue DH for Increased F1 freq. Gonna be quite cool in WvW and Spvp, lol

I like the OP’s thinking. What we will probably get however, is a bear to finish off our ranger transformation.

Still needs a few rooting and cast time changes. Having a cast time or root on 80% of DH skills virtues included makes me feel like I’m playing wow again. Instant cast supports gameplay synergy.

Hamartia.3421:

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

I ran the number (and dummy testing) during BWE1: it does outdamage scepter/torch.

Anyway, I like the OPs direction, suggesting something to separate dragonhunter builds better from current mace/torch gruadian builds while also dealing with longbow’s currently a bit low damage.

Hum …
so LB sucks because it has lower dps then our highest single target dps weapon/combo?

1) Add a trait allowing for Spear of Justice’s Tether, when it fades to pull the tethered enemy to the Guardian.

Why? Well, aside from the familiar control abilities a guardian has, it would be a nice way to force the enemy into your trap at 1200 range. Oh boy actual synergy!

2) Wings of Resolve won’t break channels, meaning for instance True Shot, although acting as a brief pause, continues to channel at the intended target and even so far as firing the shot in the air while you perform Wings of Resolve. Does that mean timing the Wings and True Shot to do an elevated True Shot into a group of foes? Oh absolutely. It also adds just a bit more mobility to the ‘pause and move’ style the Guardian Bow has, as well as other weapons. (With respect to animations, might be a bit tricky to make them smooth…)

That’s all I got.

Sykper.6583:

1) Add a trait allowing for Spear of Justice’s Tether, when it fades to pull the tethered enemy to the Guardian.

Why? Well, aside from the familiar control abilities a guardian has, it would be a nice way to force the enemy into your trap at 1200 range. Oh boy actual synergy!

That’s actually a really good idea, I like it alot. I’m not sure I’d be willing to take it as a trait on it’s own (as it’d be useless against defiant or breakbar foes), but if it offered something else small in addition aswell (such as a reduced CD or a few stacks of vulnerability on F1 use), I’d definetly be sold on it.

KotCR.6024:

Sykper.6583:

1) Add a trait allowing for Spear of Justice’s Tether, when it fades to pull the tethered enemy to the Guardian.

Why? Well, aside from the familiar control abilities a guardian has, it would be a nice way to force the enemy into your trap at 1200 range. Oh boy actual synergy!

That’s actually a really good idea, I like it alot. I’m not sure I’d be willing to take it as a trait on it’s own (as it’d be useless against defiant or breakbar foes), but if it offered something else small in addition aswell (such as a reduced CD or a few stacks of vulnerability on F1 use), I’d definetly be sold on it.

Make it an additional effect to Big Game Hunter, have it compete with the support heavy ’Hunter’s Fortification’ and the push-based ‘Heavy Light’. Though I think Heavy Light might need to be tuned better to compete with the altered BGH.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Hamartia.3421:

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

I ran the number (and dummy testing) during BWE1: it does outdamage scepter/torch.

Anyway, I like the OPs direction, suggesting something to separate dragonhunter builds better from current mace/torch gruadian builds while also dealing with longbow’s currently a bit low damage.

Do you have these statistics on hand? Because the thought of longbow doing more DPS than scepter/torch with Radiant Fire has me pretty skeptical, honestly.

This trait would be an excellent replacement for Pure of Sight.

+1, hope this gains traction.

To be honest dh is already incredible.
It’s incredibly bad and ineffective.
/constructive post off

I think you’ve hit the main point which is that the trait line sux.

Existing guard build like shouts or medi wanted an improved ranged weapon, but now we’re forced into this crappy trait line in order to get it.

I see most people sticking with scepter…

Simple yet effective.

Now we just need to do something about the cast time/set up times for these traps… or at least make em ground targeted and we are getting somewhere.

Black Box.9312:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Hamartia.3421:

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

I ran the number (and dummy testing) during BWE1: it does outdamage scepter/torch.

Anyway, I like the OPs direction, suggesting something to separate dragonhunter builds better from current mace/torch gruadian builds while also dealing with longbow’s currently a bit low damage.

Do you have these statistics on hand? Because the thought of longbow doing more DPS than scepter/torch with Radiant Fire has me pretty skeptical, honestly.

It won’t do more single-target damage than a specced-Sceptre/Torch, and it shouldn’t either.

Believe it or not, for a ranged weapon, Sceptre/Torch is actually pretty high DPS, but it’s for the most part single-target. Sceptre 2 can hit multiple-targets, but if it does it’s damage goes from awesome to lacklustre, and on it’s own it’s clearly not enough to be considered for classifying the weapon as an AoE weapon.

Longbow has quite alot of piercing abilities, a symbol and ward drops, it’s loaded with AoE’s, and it is clearly meant as a long-range multi-target weapon (the original design of the auto-attack should suggest that to you on it’s own).

As a result, as Sceptre/Torch is single-target focused, and Longbow is multi-target focused, Sceptre/Torch should be doing more damage, towards a single-target anyway…else otherwise, what would be the point of the weaponset?

Specialised long-ranged Guardians carrying Longbow on one set, and Sceptre/Torch on the other, should be, and will in some game-types, be a thing.

Black Box.9312:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Hamartia.3421:

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

I ran the number (and dummy testing) during BWE1: it does outdamage scepter/torch.

Anyway, I like the OPs direction, suggesting something to separate dragonhunter builds better from current mace/torch gruadian builds while also dealing with longbow’s currently a bit low damage.

Do you have these statistics on hand? Because the thought of longbow doing more DPS than scepter/torch with Radiant Fire has me pretty skeptical, honestly.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Longbow-vs-scepter-torch/first#post5359160
It’s old numbers, so they are missing two rounds of longbow buffs. Also I didn’t add in pure of sight or radiant fire.

Black Box.9312:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Hamartia.3421:

4. Longbow does not come anywhere near close to the DPS OR utility of current Guardian weapon combinations. I can see how it almost does, but it isn’t there yet. I’m not sure it even beats Scepter/torch single-target DPS.

I ran the number (and dummy testing) during BWE1: it does outdamage scepter/torch.

Anyway, I like the OPs direction, suggesting something to separate dragonhunter builds better from current mace/torch gruadian builds while also dealing with longbow’s currently a bit low damage.

Do you have these statistics on hand? Because the thought of longbow doing more DPS than scepter/torch with Radiant Fire has me pretty skeptical, honestly.

I recalculated to include Radiant Fire. You’re right, longbow doesn’t outdo scepter/torch in terms of damage.

Numbers below with the 10%/25% damage buffs to longbow #1 and #2 incoming for BWE3:
Longbow (with Pure of Sight):
#1: 316dmg per 1.0s
#2: 932dmg, 4s CD
#4: 5×205dmg, 6×4s burning (6×524dmg), 15s CD
DPS (up to 3 targets): 742 ((13*316*1.1+3*932*1.1+5*205*1.1+6*524)/(13+4*0.75))
Mobility DPS (not #2, #4 hits once): 382 ((13*316*1.1+2*205*1.1+2*524)/(15+0.75))

Scepter/torch (with Radiant Fire, excluding PBAoE)
#1: 237dmg per 0.8s (calculation below is by counting attacks in-game though)
#2:16×117dmg, 6s CD
#4: 720dmg, 3×3.5s burning (1179dmg), 12s CD (usable twice because of trait)
DPS (single-target): 747 ((6*237+2*16*117+2*720+2*1179)/12)
Mobility DPS (not #2): 494 ((9*237+2*720+2*1179)/12)