Guild Wars 2

Before start writing i state one thing. if you dont like the post, and you came here only to bash people, dont reply…
If you dont like something, and you have good ideas to improve our class, Whitout make guardian too OP, you are welcome here.

edit: Keep in mind that all these ideas are related to a probably nerf to our retaliation uptime.

edit edit: someone make me notice that my title is misleading so i ask to moderators to change it.
the discussion is not all about defenses, but about mechanics to improve the guardians control on melee range.

1) Simbols: i already say on some other topic, simbols must be a mechanic for all the weapons, and they must be fairly accessibile to us, because they can be a wonderful tool of ground control. so:
-Sword: flashing blade after the teleport, create a simbol in the ground that cause small damage to the enemy, no boons, combo field: light
-Scepter: Smithe Create a simbol on the ground that damage the enemy for a good amount of damage, no boons, combo field :light
new conditions exclusive for all simbols: NEGATION: punish the enemy that walk in your simbol: -% movement speed -% effective heal, this value are decided by the cooldown of the simbols(not traited), so for example, hammer simbol it can have a costant negation on an enemy, but its not strong as the GS\staff negation.
for this a thinked something like:
Movement speed: -3% x skill CD ( example: simbol of faith 3X8= 24% movement speed reduced)
Healing negation: -2% x skill CD

Aegis: i really dont like the way aegis work, its too random… I propose something Like virtue of courage grant Vitality(decided by level) during its duration, but you can activate it for an aegis every 15\20 sec (if you think that shelter can be used every 30 sec and block attacks for 2 seconds, its not so OP)

Consecrations:
Hallowed ground: Enemy can enter it, but cannon exit.
Sanctuary: Dome effect around the character, unable to move, invulnerable, 6 heal pulse during its duration . Before 2 seconds(you have only 2 sec to activate the side effect) of duration, you can sacrifice the dome, to trap the enemy inside the bouble, the enemy cannon move, regenerate skills, regenerate healts, but its invulnerable.
Wall of reflection:Enemy cant step through It.

Ganzo.5079:

1) Symbols: I already said in some other topic, Symbols must be a mechanic for all the weapons, and they must be fairly accessible to us, because they can be a wonderful tool of ground control. so:

I don’t think each weapon needs a Symbol, but if the changes I’d like go through, only the Sword wouldn’t have a Symbol.

-Sword: Flashing Blade after the teleport, create a Symbol in the ground that causes small damage to the enemy, no boons, combo field: light

This feels really shoehorned in. I also like that our Symbols follow the same pattern, namely: damage+boon+combo-field. I also have another criticism. I don’t see how this improves our defenses, as your title says.

-Scepter: Smite Create a Symbol on the ground that damage the enemy for a good amount of damage, no boons, combo field :light

Again, I don’t like the idea that a Symbol wouldn’t grant a boon. But it’s weird that Smite isn’t a Symbol.

New conditions exclusive for all Symbols: NEGATION: Punish the enemy that walks in your Symbol: -% movement speed -% effective heal, this value are decided by the cooldown of the Symbols (not traited), so for example, Hammer Symbol it can have a constant negation on an enemy, but its not strong as the GS\staff negation.

I like the idea of punishing people who come in our Symbols, as it’s add an extra layer of control our AoE lacks somewhat. That being said, I don’t think this is the way to go about it. We don’t need a condition exclusive to our profession. What you could do is give the Scepter (for example) a Symbol that does “Chill” to an enemy instead of granting a boon. If I’m not mistaken, all our Symbols look alike, so this could be enough to discourage people from going in them. (Incidentally, giving our Symbols a Chill or Cripple effect might be a very good Grandmaster Trait.)

Aegis: I really don’t like the way Aegis work, it’s too random… I propose something like: Virtue of Courage grant Vitality(decided by level) during its duration, but you can activate it for an aegis every 15\20 sec (if you think that Shelter can be used every 30 sec and block attacks for 2 seconds, its not so OP)

I don’t think there’s a problem with how Virtue of Courage works (because your problem is really with Virtue of Courage, not with Aegis). The cooldown is a bit long, but not underpowered in any way. If I’d had to change anything about it, I’d make it so that Virtue of Courage gives us a more active way of defending ourselves. Off the top of my head it could give a 1% damage reduction and grant Aegis on activation with an overall lower cooldown.

Ganzo.5079:

Hallowed ground: Enemy can enter it, but cannot exit it.

I like our area-denial abilities, but you have to keep in mind that they’re extremely potent. Maybe punishing the enemy for leaving it with extra burning or a cripple can be a better way to go about it.

Sanctuary: Dome effect around the character, unable to move, invulnerable, 6 heal pulse per second. Before 2 seconds(you have only 2 sec to activate the side effect) of duration, you can sacrifice the dome, to trap the enemy inside the bubble, the enemy cannot move, regenerate skills, regenerate health.

Sanctuary is already powerful. This makes it harder-to-use and a bit counterintuitive. It would also be the only skill that would work like that. And shutting down the enemy so completely is almost griefing.

Ganzo.5079:

Wall of Reflection:Enemy cant step through It.

Wall of Reflection is fine as it is. Hard area-denial is incredibly powerful and we already have Line of Warding. Wall of Reflection has a specific use, and it’s really good at that. Giving it another (strong) use, would be too powerful.

Conclusion
I don’t think the Guardian really needs more defenses. Your ideas aren’t all bad, but they would make us a lot stronger in an area we’re already really strong in.

@ynna

ok, so for the simbol part, it was all related to the negation condition. now i was thinking on chill too, but its to powerfull beacause its a -66% on movement speed and skill regen, so i think something related to the simbols usage, less time you can use the simbol, and most powerful the simbol is, but hey, its only and idea :P

For sanctuary is my fault, i miss to write an important part :P

Sanctuary: Dome effect around the character, unable to move, invulnerable, 6 heal pulse during its duration . Before 2 seconds(you have only 2 sec to activate the side effect) of duration, you can sacrifice the dome, to trap the enemy inside the bouble, the enemy cannon move, regenerate skills, regenerate healts, but its invulnerable.

and all my ideas are related to the nerf that probably is incoming for the retaliation use. i miss to say this part too lol

Regarding symbols

I personally don’t think all our weapons need combo fields. The guardian is one of the few classes that can pull a self combo so effortlessly. I feel that the sword is already in a good place in that it gives us an offensive one hand option to the mace. The reason why I don’t think it needs a symbol is that you already have an option to equip a focus or shield. Both these offhands grant defensive boons like block and protection. The shield also has an AoE knock back making it incredibly powerful than most give it credit for. The mace fills in the roll for more defence and is used for most defensive builds in both pvp and pve.

I think enemies should be punished more for being inside our symbols other than just damage and potential combo. I think cripple when inside maybe slightly overpowered in some cases like the mace for example. The cooldown on that thing is hell short and could cause some massive griefing. Maybe cripple the enemy if they are caught during the activation of the symbol may make more sense.

Aegis

I agree that the timing of Aegis is some what random and only serves as a compensation for guardian HP but apart from that I find Aegis as a mechanic quite fun to use as a virtue. I find having to time the use of Aegis for a massive attack much more fun, effective and satisfying than temporary vitality which imo wouldn’t do jack against a giant stomp, and other 2 shot mechanics in this game. That Aegis also shields you from any stuns/knockdowns/conditions so I feel that your suggestion actually feels like a nerf in all instances. :/

Wall Of Reflection

I think this is ok the way it is. The pushback would make it almost identical to the staff skill and turning both into one makes it feel slightly overpowered considering how long this thing actually lasts.

I also want to say that I don’t think guardians need more cripples, stuns or protective buffs. The guardian has plenty of these skills and traits as it is. It maybe finding that sweet spot or skill to use this correctly to get the most out of it and once this happens, complaints like “This is useless”, being too slow", “can’t kill anything”, “too little hit points” and “can’t catchup to enemies” will become less common. I just had to get that out of my stomach. I however do find certain utilities and a certain weapon lacking to some degree and definitely happy to address those.

Polle.6908:

Regarding symbols

I personally don’t think all our weapons need combo fields. The guardian is one of the few classes that can pull a self combo so effortlessly. I feel that the sword is already in a good place in that it gives us an offensive one hand option to the mace. The reason why I don’t think it needs a symbol is that you already have an option to equip a focus or shield. Both these offhands grant defensive boons like block and protection. The shield also has an AoE knock back making it incredibly powerful than most give it credit for. The mace fills in the roll for more defence and is used for most defensive builds in both pvp and pve.
I think enemies should be punished more for being inside our symbols other than just damage and potential combo. I think cripple when inside maybe slightly overpowered in some cases like the mace for example. The cooldown on that thing is hell short and could cause some massive griefing. Maybe cripple the enemy if they are caught during the activation of the symbol may make more sense.

For sword i can agree, adding a simbol on Sword is only a way to improve a weapon that rely on 80% of its damage on autoattack… but can be ok.
The proposal of a new type of condition is exactly to not make a simbol too powerful, because the effect is decided by the cooldown of the simbol.
I have another idea about this, to improve our use of the condition damage\condition duration stats, but for now i prefer to keep them for me lol.

Aegis

I agree that the timing of Aegis is some what random and only serves as a compensation for guardian HP but apart from that I find Aegis as a mechanic quite fun to use as a virtue. I find having to time the use of Aegis for a massive attack much more fun, effective and satisfying than temporary vitality which imo wouldn’t do jack against a giant stomp, and other 2 shot mechanics in this game. That Aegis also shields you from any stuns/knockdowns/conditions so I feel that your suggestion actually feels like a nerf in all instances. :/

i dont think that my idea is a nerf for dungeon, but is a more rationate use of aegis, with a 20 sec cd, you can use aegis when you really need it, and not wait for a timer of 30 sec for a random use and then wait 90 seconds when you use it actively, on boss fight 90 seconds are a life.

Wall Of Reflection

I think this is ok the way it is. The pushback would make it almost identical to the staff skill and turning both into one makes it feel slightly overpowered considering how long this thing actually lasts.

I never mentioned a pushback effect, but only, the enemy cant pass.

I agree smite is weird that it’s not a symbol, to get buffed by symbol traits. If you’re trying to add something to Flashing Blade, making it a leap finisher is the logical choice there (though I don’t think it really needs it).

The other changes, absolutely not.

Have you ever considered that all this stuff you find lacking about the guardian is because your build isn’t very good? I’m not trying to be an kitten but does anybody else really think guardians’ defense needs to be buffed? Seriously?

Posting in a stealth “Guardians can’t stunlock wahhhh” thread.

Rainshine.5493:

[D]oes anybody else really think guardians’ defense needs to be buffed? Seriously?

I agree. Guardians are defensive, even when going all out on the offensive front.

Rainshine.5493:

Have you ever considered that all this stuff you find lacking about the guardian is because your build isn’t very good? I’m not trying to be an kitten but does anybody else really think guardians’ defense needs to be buffed? Seriously?

Really no, i have some problem on pvp, but are related to something else…

now we all know that sooner or later, the thing that make us so strong, will be nerfed! (and i hope this come as sooner as possible) and its the retaliation uptime.
Im only proposing some kind of sostitution to the “reflecting damage” mechanism. Maybe devs have somehing else in mind for us, but some more idea, i don think its bad O_o.
If you look, the simbol proposal aim to give to guardians, a little control on Close range combat, but its distant to be considered OP… cripple on all simbols is OP, chill, is OP…a little slow movement, and a little reduction on incoming heals, is a punishment the people that walk on a simbol.

For area denial, enemy can still move, he dont take damage, im not proposing to activate push back and knock down effect on all our consecration\wall\ward, but simply, activate a collision like a physical object.
In the case of wall of reflection, the enemy collide with the wall, and instead of simply pass throgh it, he have to overcome the obstacle, so a traited wall of reflection, can be used as movement control, is it so bad?

Retaliation is not why guardians’ defense is strong … It does synergize very well with bunker type builds, but it’s not the cause of the strong defense.

symbols doesnt need to be boon+damage+field

Doesnt the mace symbol only heal?
Anyways if scepter #2 is to turn into a symbol it would be nice for it to deal damage, combo field light, and give vigor

Rainshine.5493:

Retaliation is not why guardians’ defense is strong … It does synergize very well with bunker type builds, but it’s not the cause of the strong defense.

is not a defense, but reflect damage + defense =win
When you have not damage reflection, you are only a meat shield if you cant control.

I don’t know how often anyone would benefit from the vigor on Smite. Do you stand in smite very often? The whole point is to deal damage from range. :B

Chii.2814:

symbols doesnt need to be boon+damage+field

Doesnt the mace symbol only heal?
Anyways if scepter #2 is to turn into a symbol it would be nice for it to deal damage, combo field light, and give vigor

Mace simbol give regeneration boon, ok it heals, but its still a boon ^^

Rainshine.5493:

I don’t know how often anyone would benefit from the vigor on Smite. Do you stand in smite very often? The whole point is to deal damage from range. :B

Yes now its only a range damage skill, but if it become simbol, it can be something like the staff simbol, its a good source of speed, but with the fire sigil is awesome when you are assaulting a fortress on WvW…

The future scepter simbol can be used from distance to buff or heals your allies… better then nothing :P

Unless I’m crazy, retaliation doesn’t actually block or reduce incoming damage. It just damages people who hit you (the damage of which scales with +power), despite the wording. So it’s way more effective against a bunch of quick small hits than slow, hard-hitting skills, and still has nothing to do with guardian defense except that it synergizes well with it.

well yeah regen is a boon. I just didnt know whether its just a straight up heal or regen

Rainshine.5493:

Unless I’m crazy, retaliation doesn’t actually block or reduce incoming damage. It just damages people who hit you (the damage of which scales with +power), despite the wording. So it’s way more effective against a bunch of quick small hits than slow, hard-hitting skills, and still has nothing to do with guardian defense except that it synergizes well with it.

OMG me and you have some problem to undestand each other.

now why guardians are considered OP? because retaliation can do damage from every distance, and paired with an high defense make you a beast… when the uptime is near 100% you can only focus to heals. its Awesome with bunkers, but its still a good damage source for “glass cannon” guardians (they use all an hammer, so ret uptime is 100%) and even without hammer you have GS simbol, virtues, shouts, traits… all source of retaliation.

But with a limited ret uptime? can you still control an enemy that attack you from distance? im NOT SAYING that i want to slay an enemy whit a bunker build in a couple of hits (i dont use a bunker because a dont do spvp). but without this damage\control source you need something else, not strong as retaliation, but something else.

Rainshine.5493:

Unless I’m crazy, retaliation doesn’t actually block or reduce incoming damage. It just damages people who hit you (the damage of which scales with +power), despite the wording. So it’s way more effective against a bunch of quick small hits than slow, hard-hitting skills, and still has nothing to do with guardian defense except that it synergizes well with it.

You are absolutely correct, but Retaliation does make a “bunker” Guardian more powerful than they probably should be. It allows a player to do fair damage, while still focusing completely on defense.

This has absolutely nothing to do with guardians’ defense. None. You can survive just as long without retaliation, and bunker builds SHOULD struggle to do damage.

We’ve already been over the whole control thing, and guardians have plenty of it despite your claims to the contrary.

EDIT EDIT: And no, most hammer guardians are not glass cannon, they run toughness + altruistic healing.

EDIT @Ynna: I agree, which is why I’m not sure why the OP acknowledges retaliation is OP while at the same time looking for more ways to grant bunker builds damage/even more CC. I already acknowledged the obvious synergy between bunker + retaliation. Nobody’s disagreeing there. But when the OP talks about “improving our defenses” then retaliation doesn’t have anything to do with that.

Rainshine.5493:

This has absolutely nothing to do with guardians’ defense. None. You can survive just as long without retaliation, and bunker builds SHOULD struggle to do damage.
We’ve already been over the whole control thing, and guardians have plenty of it despite your claims to the contrary.

That famous post on the lack of ranged option, states clearly that guardians lack of something, my idea to have better control, aim to mantain the guardian what its now: an awesome close combat fighter, with limited ranged options(and without retaliation)… but if devs provide some kind of better ranged weapon to be capable of handle long range fighters\running foes, i can stop to make proposal, its really not a problem for me.

EDIT EDIT: And no, most hammer guardians are not glass cannon, they run toughness + altruistic healing.

hammes glass cannon go for berserk or knight equipment that sinergize well with AH due to high crit… thats because i write “glass cannon”, because a real guardian glass cannon cant really exist.

Edit: Now we are going OT anyway, you dont like my idea, ok! but i stated clearly one thing

Before start writing i state one thing. if you dont like the post, and you came here only to bash people, dont reply…
If you dont like something, and you have good ideas to improve our class, Whitout make guardian too OP, you are welcome here.

maybe my title is misleading, but as you can see, my english s.uck.

Edit: edited first post.

“That famous post on the lack of ranged option, states clearly that guardians lack of something”
Yes – and gains other things instead, many of which can be difficult to effectively understand or appreciate without a lot of knowledge of asymetric gaming balance. These are many-to-many relationships with volatile transaction chains, there are very few people who can evaluate them effectively from client side data only.

Repeating what has been said by others simply (to assist with the translation gap):
Are guardians really the prof. you think they are?
Are guardians really the prof. you wish to play?
Do you really think that every prof. should have examples of every tool in the game, in their toolkit?

If you answered yes to all three you’ve missed something fundamental.

I wouldn’t consider Knight’s gear glass cannon, but it seems we are talking about the same thing.

Ganzo.5079:

you dont like my idea, ok! but i stated clearly one thing

Before start writing i state one thing. if you dont like the post, and you came here only to bash people, dont reply…
If you dont like something, and you have good ideas to improve our class, Whitout make guardian too OP, you are welcome here.

maybe my title is misleading, but as you can see, my english s.uck.

This sounds like basically if you don’t agree, don’t post? Most people aren’t offering ways to improve the guardian because minus some bugs, the guardian is really strong where it is.

I think staff needs a rework, particularly skill 2, but I can’t fathom what it actually needs to feel less pieced together. I think scepter projectile could stand to be sped up a tad, and I agreed with you on Smite being a symbol.

What I don’t agree is that guardian is as fundamentally flawed as you seem to think it is.

Rainshine.5493:

I don’t know how often anyone would benefit from the vigor on Smite. Do you stand in smite very often? The whole point is to deal damage from range. :B

And a symbol that gives vigor WILL deal damage. On top of that it will deal damage more consistently rather than randomly like smite is now. On top of that your traits can make it last longer, be bigger, etc etc etc

The whole point of giving it vigor ability rather than anything else is that turning smite into a symbol already is packed with benefits and is a good enough buff. To comply with symbols having to grant boons, choosing the least “strong” boon is good.

Just like i hate it when they nerf something with a heavy hand, id not appreciate buffs with a heavy hand

Rainshine.5493:

What I don’t agree is that guardian is as fundamentally flawed as you seem to think it is.

I dont think guardian is broken, i continue to play it after 500 hours of gameplay. But he miss something and thats all.
If you look my proposal i havent propose Stunlock, knockback, daze, immobilize increasing damage or something else.
For what we have on hands NOW, we are a class that have limited way to move, because:
Not all players, pick the same weapon.(only 2 weap have a real close range skill,MB work only on close combat)
Not all players pick the same utility skill.
Our ranged options are… LOL

When i state “we lack of controls”, is because our major controls are tied to a long CD, and we dont have minor control options, the simbol proposal aim to that minor control component, and if i have to make some calcultation, it result something like:

Simbol of faith: -24% movement speed -16% effective heal
Simbol of protection(i take 3 seconds as cd): -9% movement speed, -6% effective heal
Simbol of swiftnees: -45% movement speed -30% effective heal
SImbol of wrath: -60% movement speed -40% on effective heal

Now if the less effective heal is overpowered i have no problem to reconsider this. and thats why i ask to PPL to be constructive instead of simply reply with:
No No No, guardian is ok, guardian is OP.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
For the Virtue of courage proposal. I like the active blocks, and i really prefer to discharge that random use and choose when to use my def, it can become something like this and be similar to the actual VOC:

Virtue of courage:
NO passive effects.
When you use it you have aegis on you (cd 20 seconds)
you can use VOC another time before the 20 sec timer expire, to grant aegis to the party (60 sec cd to refresh the virtue)
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
and for the ward proposal, it only add mere tactical choice, you force to opponent to change direction by the use of double sided skills, but its nothing substantial.

I think VoC is fine as it is – you have to remember that virtues are the class mechanic of the guardian. Like all class mechanics, they are just “okay” vanilla, but can be traited to be much more powerful. VoC is no exception. If you put 30 points into the virtue line and take all of the VoC related traits, it turns into a 63-second cooldown monstrosity that gives aegis, 6.5 seconds of protection, 4 seconds of stability to the group, and GROUP STUN BREAK. On top of that, you also get 4 second retaliation on yourself, with a passive that gives a 30-second automatic block. It makes VoC a signet with an active effect essentially of 2 shouts (stand your ground, 1/2 retreat + 1/2 hold the line). Makes it one of the most powerful group panic buttons, and potentially freeing up a utility slot for you to do something else. Do not underestimate it!

Sure, it’s not quite as good if you are soloing, but the guardian class as a whole is designed to be stronger in a group – and the class mechanics reflects this. Also, folks complain the VoC doesn’t promote an active playstyle, and that is true, but I think VoC is designed to be an emergency response system, not something that you constantly activate – VoJ is for that.

If I had something to complain about, it would actually be the Virtue of Resolve. It’s a very bipolar skill that doesn’t have many traits associated with it. It’s either “I guess it’s okay….” or “it’s so good you got to be skritting me!” depending on whether you take Absolute Resolve or not… I’d love to see some traits in the future that gives it a bit more flexibility.