Guild Wars 2

As a boon, I find retaliation invaluable and I find absolutely no reason to change any of the ways we receive it through skills/traits.

But of course, I am no expert in “game balance” so please forgive my noobness for asking.

ArenaNet has now decided that Retaliation should be used as a counter to Multi-hit attacks not something that is used all the time for things like auto-attacks or 1 hit skills. So basically now if you have someone using a Multi-hit attack you pop Retaliation re-actively not preemptively.

This will hurt tank/support Guardians since this was their means of damage and countering high Crit enemies with Multi-hit attacks. The enemies won’t kill themselves from from their combined auto-attacks and Multi-hit skills now.

So basically it is another buff for Crit builds and another nerf for everyone else. It is a bigger nerf for Guardians since our health pool is smaller and their Toughness while combined with Protection doesn’t mean much when an enemy has a 70%+ chance to critically hit 6-9 times in 2 seconds with a Multi-hit attack.

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP, a boon that can be kept up a ridiculous amount of time that passively reflects damage back, is skilless.

And that perhaps if that in a game that is allegedly targeting balanced PvP, that having a certain class be far in the way the best point defender, when all the tPvP maps are based on point control is unbalanced, so adjustment was needed.

@Tobeyeus

I couldn’t agree more. You’ve put my exact thoughts into sensible words.

Is there anybody out there that can justify ANET’s actions? Or did they just decide to kitten us over because it’s funny?

so far with every patch that has come out, I seen nothing but nerfs for the Guardian. Does that mean they are overpowered or something? I don’t remember feeling very OP.

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP

Huh?

From Jon Peters (GW2 Game Designer):
“PvE, WvW, and sPvP balance are all equally important and we will address them all with the same amount of weight and thought.”

Though, in defense of your point, Jon was clearly either lying or misinformed when he made that statement.

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP, a boon that can be kept up a ridiculous amount of time that passively reflects damage back, is skilless.

And that perhaps if that in a game that is allegedly targeting balanced PvP, that having a certain class be far in the way the best point defender, when all the tPvP maps are based on point control is unbalanced, so adjustment was needed.

Yes, because our lack of ranged attacks, at least one that we can actively use in WvW/pvp in general, and our low health pool aren’t a good excuse to at least make us more tanky. =/

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP, a boon that can be kept up a ridiculous amount of time that passively reflects damage back, is skilless.

And that perhaps if that in a game that is allegedly targeting balanced PvP, that having a certain class be far in the way the best point defender, when all the tPvP maps are based on point control is unbalanced, so adjustment was needed.

They should have went about it differently. They effectively killed GS dps when all they had to do was replace the retaliation on the GS with something else or remove it entirely. It’s not like we dont have other means of retaliation. This nerfed GS dps in PVE because of PVP complaints.

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP, a boon that can be kept up a ridiculous amount of time that passively reflects damage back, is skilless.

You realize that the change to Symbol of Wrath does not affect the ability of a dedicated build to keep up Retaliation, yes? Actually, with the amount of Light Fields available to a Guardian and Leap of Faith now on a shorter CD it’s becomes simpler to keep up Retaliation in a PVP environment.

How’s that for irony?

emtwo.4058:

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP

Huh?

From Jon Peters (GW2 Game Designer):
“PvE, WvW, and sPvP balance are all equally important and we will address them all with the same amount of weight and thought.”

Though, in defense of your point, Jon was clearly either lying or misinformed when he made that statement.

Well they’ve stated they want to make the tPvP into e-sport, I’d suggest if they want it to succeed that it will have to be balanced and that small team PvP requires a finer a degree of balance and that balance is more crucial to its success, than either WvWvW or co-operative PVE.

As for the public relations statements of a company…

In my opinion they should have kept the original cooldown, remove retaliation and increase the damage to compensate.

Lagz.9538:

Sylosi.6503:

How about in a game that is allegedly targeting skilled PvP, a boon that can be kept up a ridiculous amount of time that passively reflects damage back, is skilless.

And that perhaps if that in a game that is allegedly targeting balanced PvP, that having a certain class be far in the way the best point defender, when all the tPvP maps are based on point control is unbalanced, so adjustment was needed.

They should have went about it differently. They effectively killed GS dps when all they had to do was replace the retaliation on the GS with something else or remove it entirely. It’s not like we dont have other means of retaliation. This nerfed GS dps in PVE because of PVP complaints.

What did they do to kill our GS dmg? I dont get it, i must miss something. They gave us 5 shorter leap and nerfed our symbol. Did they change anything else?

Sylosi.6503:

Well they’ve stated they want to make the tPvP into e-sport…

On a tangential note, chasing after E-Sport status is pointless. E-Sports are a dying fad, doomed to failure by the pace of technology and the profit-driven video game market. As long as shareholders push design companies into releasing cheap new iterations every couple of years, it’s going to be impossible to form a cohesive E-Sports following because nobody cares who’s best at a game they don’t own, and the public at large can’t afford to buy every single video game that wants to achieve E-Sports fame.

That, and the anonymous safety of the internet completely removes any element of sportsmanship from E-“Sports.”

I’m curious as to whether it will change retaliation to a mechanic itself or if it will turn it into a boon similar to aegis. I am also interested in knowing how this will affect our blast finishers with light fields.

MysticoN.5068:

What did they do to kill our GS dmg? I dont get it, i must miss something. They gave us 5 shorter leap and nerfed our symbol. Did they change anything else?

In doing so they also flipped all our skills around.

Symbol of Wrath went from #2 to #4
Whirling Wrath went from #3 to #2
Leap of Faith went from #4 to #3

Guess ANet likes messing with people’s minds. So instead of leaping to a target by reflex, I now slam a symbol into the ground at useless spots.

MysticoN.5068:

What did they do to kill our GS dmg? I dont get it, i must miss something. They gave us 5 shorter leap and nerfed our symbol. Did they change anything else?

Well, I don’t know how you play GS, but I assume that the person who made that claim plays like me: Gathering up a group of enemies then AOEing them down. Symbol of Wrath with its combination of damage and conditionally more damage via Retaliation was very effective at culling chaff in this setup.

It’s also hyperbole. But the basic point is valid. Guardian GS PVE damage is taking a noticeable hit. However, it only affects certain playstyles. Most likely people who ‘farm’ for Fine Crafting Materials and/or Karma.

emtwo.4058:

On a tangential note, chasing after E-Sport status is pointless. E-Sports are a dying fad…

You may be right, personally I am not a fan of e-sports, trying to watch LOL is like watching paint dry, but then some people have said the same about the rather stagnant market that is MMORPGs.

emtwo.4058:

That, and the anonymous safety of the internet completely removes any element of sportsmanship from E-“Sports.”

The lack of sportsmanship is common to many sports these days.

Good nerf.

The boon itself and in its design doesnt promote skillbased gameplay.

The fact is that the boon rewards, relatively, bad players and bad gameplay. Being hit is the opposite in a non tank game (you remember that anet want to remove the holy trinity).

To ensure a win you need to deal damage and avoid damage. Retaliation infact decreases the gap between being hit on and hit.

Hopefully they redesign the entire boon and make it that you need skill to use.

It would be kind of interesting to see retaliation be turned into an aegis-esque boon that, once the player is hit, transfers a condition to the hitter. Kind of like how a few Dervish skills worked to turn an overly aggressive player (Assassins…. =p ) into thinking about their next move. So, say it gives the attacker a few seconds of weakness instead of simply damaging the attacker.

Is it too late to ask for retaliation to cause freeze? =D

Brutaly.6257:

Good nerf.

The boon itself and in its design doesnt promote skillbased gameplay.

While this is debatable, they didn’t change Retaliation per se. Just one Skill that also gave 5 1s ticks of it. Someone who wants to milk Retaliation can still do it. The people hardest hit by this change are probably those levelling up Guardians.

That said you gotta ask yourself why we have all those abilities and Traits that give or extent Retaliation when it was intended to be used defensively. And that said… if there’s a big multi-hit attack coming my way I’d personally rather dodge than use the time to throw up Retaliation. In the end this will hurt me more than the other guy if I just take it on the chin.

For this reason,. Retaliation does seem very much like an all or nothing thing to me and apparently most everyone else. I’m just personally more in the nothing camp.

Aveneo.2068:

MysticoN.5068:

What did they do to kill our GS dmg? I dont get it, i must miss something. They gave us 5 shorter leap and nerfed our symbol. Did they change anything else?

In doing so they also flipped all our skills around.

Symbol of Wrath went from #2 to #4
Whirling Wrath went from #3 to #2
Leap of Faith went from #4 to #3

Guess ANet likes messing with people’s minds. So instead of leaping to a target by reflex, I now slam a symbol into the ground at useless spots.

yeah its really annoying… Sure muscle memory bla bla it will become normal etc. But it actualy effects wvw right in the middle of a new round… w/o even warning us. Could care less (even if they way they went around ret is bad) of the ret change.
It was just stupid to change our skills around.

Draeka.5941:

It would be kind of interesting to see retaliation be turned into an aegis-esque boon that, once the player is hit, transfers a condition to the hitter. Kind of like how a few Dervish skills worked to turn an overly aggressive player (Assassins…. =p ) into thinking about their next move. So, say it gives the attacker a few seconds of weakness instead of simply damaging the attacker.

Is it too late to ask for retaliation to cause freeze? =D

Thats what Im saying, if anything should have been made into a activate /trigger like aegis or virtues. I would not even care if 1 sec. Would have been better then this mess.

People seem to be forgetting it did effect more then ret now… The longer Cd also effect people who use symbols to trigger extra effect. (Vulnerability etc.) It makes that trait moot now for example. All I see Anet do is fix something that isn’t broken then braking something else every time… (well sure I think their aim was right but they went about it all wrong.)

No matter what they say they are not keeping balance of skills between pve n pvp. Pvp issues are forcing global changes in skills that then effect pve. (They need to wake up like all the other games and consider creating pvp versions of each skill…)

PS: again swapping around our skills was dumb. (especially in middle of new WvW round)

Sovngarde.2740:

No matter what they say they are not keeping balance of skills between pve n pvp. Pvp issues are forcing global changes in skills that then effect pve. (They need to wake up like all the other games and consider creating pvp versions of each skill…)

This is a huuuge pet peeve of mine!

Heck, they can even look to their own game, Guild Wars, to see how they separated PvE skills from PvP skills.

Was retaliation really overpowered in PvE to justify changing greatsword skillset and I guess now working to modify ret itself? It really seems like these changes are directed at sPvP, so that has me wondering why my PvE guardian is having his effectiveness reduced for balancing in a game mode I don’t even play?

Well for bad players yeah it was op:)..
I don’t think retaliation is OP, fairly small amount of dmg, and as thief you just use big hits instead of PW-spam (nerfed btw:0).
But like they idea of a more active retaliation:)

Maybe they’ll remove the damage cap on retaliation if the nerf finally neutered retaliation spam. That’ll shut everybody up

Judging by the wording in the notes (and past patches), guardian still hasn’t seen the last of retaliation nerfs.

Time to roll warrior, the lead designer clearly plays one(guess gw2 took the wow way with a kalgan wannabe)

What is confusing about nerfing something that is just stupidly OP and takes absolutely no skill? Now, at least with the retaliation nerf, you actually have to play a Guardian and not just easymode faceroll. Good job Anet, keep them coming.

Terok.7315:

Judging by the wording in the notes (and past patches), guardian still hasn’t seen the last of retaliation nerfs.

Next time they need to change just the retaliation part of the skill and leave the rest of the stuff alone. I would have been perfectly fine had they completely removed retaliation or replaced it with protection or something. The change in skill order was enough for me to reroll a warrior, but to top it off by nerfing pve dps was the straw! I will shelve my guardian until all this retaliation crap is worked out and reroll. I just hate having wasted all that time leveling up to then get punched in the gut.

Pimpslapper.2047:

What is confusing about nerfing something that is just stupidly OP and takes absolutely no skill? Now, at least with the retaliation nerf, you actually have to play a Guardian and not just easymode faceroll. Good job Anet, keep them coming.

Really? Because from my experience in PvE only a fraction of my damage output comes from retaliation in each fight. Actually more of it probably came from the damage output of Symbol of Wrath than it did from retaliation, and yet now my Symbol of Wrath is nerfed in order to somehow balance retaliation which to me never felt that powerful to begin with.

Retaliation will likely receive a major increase in damage once the rest of the abilities granting the Retaliation boon have been adjusted. The only problem I have with this change is that it severely weakens the aoe damage I can put out in PvE with Symbol of Wrath’s damage component.

I just can’t get over the fact that they are making the Zeal trait line even worse than it was before. The Zeal line focuses on symbols and greatswords. If they limit the amount of up time on symbols when wielding a greatsword, then what the hell is the point of Zeal in the first place? It makes me wonder if Anet even realizes what the kitten they are doing to guardians with these changes. My bet is no.

Morelia.6835:

Retaliation will likely receive a major increase in damage once the rest of the abilities granting the Retaliation boon have been adjusted. The only problem I have with this change is that it severely weakens the aoe damage I can put out in PvE with Symbol of Wrath’s damage component.

Agree with last sentence there. I used it mainly for the damage of the symbol itself, not the retal. I usually ignored the retal most of the time. The fact that I am getting one of my primary damage sources nerfed because of some lame kitten secondary effect that I never even noticed (because it sucked to much to even really notice anyway) is beyond kitten They should have just took away the retal effect, reduce the effectiveness of the retal effect, or replaced with it another boon….all while leaving everything else the same with Symbol of Wrath.

Pimpslapper.2047:

What is confusing about nerfing something that is just stupidly OP and takes absolutely no skill? Now, at least with the retaliation nerf, you actually have to play a Guardian and not just easymode faceroll. Good job Anet, keep them coming.

You are talking out of your kitten. You obviously never played a greatsword guardian. If you had, then you would realize that the retal damage was hardly even noticeable in almost every situation. The warrior forums are that way, by the way.

1 ) they didn’t nerf retaliation per se, it is available from other sources
2 ) they 100% nerfed the cd on an important dps skill of the greatsword.
Conclusion: their intended nerf (I dont question their competence) is the greatsword dps.

Was the greatsword dps really that high to justify any nerfs though? My Warrior’s greatsword shreds compared to my Guardian. The major advantages I see in the Guardian skillset are the easy access to combos and the utility, but why cut dps to balance those aspects (if those were even their concern)? Especially when Guardian’s aren’t exactly swimming in great high dps weapon choices.

@Pimpslapper: To some extent, all classes are “e z mode” with “e z 2 use skills”. If you hadn’t noticed, Guardians are lacking utility in the ranged department and we are easily kited. Guardians are also not the best DPS’ers around. I’ve always thought as retaliation as a way to even the playing fields with other classes. Just because you killed yourself when hitting someone with retaliation on, it doesn’t mean it’s OP. Have you seen a thief OHKO a warrior for 25k health in sPvP? What is a few seconds of retaliation compared to that?

I still have not seen any replies with sensible reasons to justify ANET’s actions. As of now, we’re left with a broken version of our beloved Greatsword and a boon specific to PvP.

@Ketill: This is my major concern: I don’t know why they’re nerfing one of our rare offensive melee weapon, when for example we’re lacking severely in ranged department.

IV Endu, your points for not nerfing retaliation are not related to the reasons they did it in the first place. Having endless retaliation while doing good to great dps is too easy mode.

I play a thief and the only warriors or guardians that I can take down quickly are glass cannons and noobs. They do huge DPS and it depends on who gets the jump on who. It is a trade-off. I think it is justified completely. You can still have it up constantly, it just is more difficult now.

Pimpslapper.2047:

IV Endu, your points for not nerfing retaliation are not related to the reasons they did it in the first place. Having endless retaliation while doing good to great dps is too easy mode.

I play a thief and the only warriors or guardians that I can take down quickly are glass cannons and noobs. They do huge DPS and it depends on who gets the jump on who. It is a trade-off. I think it is justified completely. You can still have it up constantly, it just is more difficult now.

Retaliation is still stackable 100% of the time, it’s just the guardian’s “fieldability” being nerfed IMO. So yet it’s a smokescreen, and not having official response from ANet somewhat confirms it.

PS: It might be 120% of the time actually. Just look up the thread about it

“As a boon, I find retaliation invaluable and I find absolutely no reason to change any of the ways we receive it through skills/traits.
But of course, I am no expert in “game balance” so please forgive my noobness for asking.”

Maybe they don’t want a particular boon to be invaluable. I think the intention of ANET was for buffs to be short and situational, one that you can keep up at all times therefore isn’t.

If they want retaliation to be a situational ‘punishes multi hit’ abilities, it needs to do more damage as well.

The damage it does if you are a support guardian is pretty laughable and eminently ignorable.

Rainydays.5368:

so far with every patch that has come out, I seen nothing but nerfs for the Guardian. Does that mean they are overpowered or something? I don’t remember feeling very OP.

Maybe you should play other professions as well Guardians are better off then many, both in PvE and PvP

Vorpal.4683:

If they want retaliation to be a situational ‘punishes multi hit’ abilities, it needs to do more damage as well.

The damage it does if you are a support guardian is pretty laughable and eminently ignorable.

This I 100% agree on. I find the change to make retaliation more tactical a very interesting one, but its true that the damage has to be increased as well in this case.

Guardian -
We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time.

Does it mean that retaliation goes away after a multi-hit? I guess I dont understand how it works now. If anyone can clarify I would appreciate it!

DoubleUnder.9052:

Guardian -
We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time.

Does it mean that retaliation goes away after a multi-hit? I guess I dont understand how it works now. If anyone can clarify I would appreciate it!

It means they want Retaliation to move from a virtually permanent uptime to utterly useless. If the direction they want to go is to make retaliation only situationally useful against extended attacks, then it might as well not be there.

Trying to study every classes animations so you can perfect your timing with activation retaliation is futile, since only noobs are going to be Pistol Whipping/Hundred Blades-ing you without Quickness up. Activating retaliation simply to do 200-500 damage after you’ve just taken 5000-8000 damage is a waste of time.