Guild Wars 2

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Honestly Guardians are extremely good at holding points due to how the class was built. They were made with the ideal that once you are in a fight, you are stuck there, and thus we have the tools to make that happen, well at least in t/sPvp at least. The issue with guardians though falls into other pvp like WvW, where forcing people to stand in a small circle for a length of time doesn’t happen, and it shows how bad the profession is for CC/Mobility in a larger field.

I honestly consider it a semi even trade, We cant catch people to kill them in WvW, so we can defend points well in s/tPvP. Though it does suck playing a roaming guardian in WvW for that point -.-

You should see some of the Engineer builds I’ve faced.

They’re extremely good at holding points as such because the game is unbalanced. Yes, I’m glad people are finally getting this. The amount of sustain and tankiness guardians have is overkill. This is exactly the sort of thing that makes PvP a joke in this game. There’s no easing your conscience about it, GW2 needs balanced. It’s not a “trade” to be too strong in one game mode and not be able to chase someone down in another. That’s just a shoddy attempt to rationalize against the fact that other classses need buffed to deal with the excessive defenses that guardians have.

sure bunker guards cant chase people down…
a meditation+sword guard can

Linguistically Inept.6583:

sure bunker guards cant chase people down…
a meditation+sword guard can

yeah… until the enemy has swiftness and simply outruns you after your gap closers….

Bash.7291:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

sure bunker guards cant chase people down…
a meditation+sword guard can

yeah… until the enemy has swiftness and simply outruns you after your gap closers….

(i dont play my guardian outside pve but…) swap to hammer when next to them and use RoW? judges intervention doesnt interrupt the cast so you can shave off a tiny bit of time there too

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

… just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them…

You answered your own question right there. If their guard was decent, it would’ve been a different story. Anything you can do, he should also be able to do. And just because the other team was a pre-made doesn’t mean they were any good.

Also, there are quite a few counters to guardians. It’s not the class’s fault if other people choose not to field those any of those counters. A good necro/sd-thief/mesmer/engi can all ruin a guard’s day. There are some really nasty evade tank rangers out there as well.

So yes, I think it’s balanced pretty well. The other team just didn’t know what they were doing.

Guardians have seen a few nerfs which have done a decent job of balancing them. They’re still good and a part of most teams, but players have learned how to combat them. What the OP is seeing is the fact that guardian is easy to pick up and perform well in a bunker role, whereas their counters require a bit more skill or teamwork to execute.

How about the classes like warrior, which are at an inherent disadvantage compared to guardian due to poor balancing? There’s no “choose a counter” or “skill or teamwork” about that, it’s merely balanced badly. This game isn’t well balanced and is undeniably still in need of some fixes. I should be able to pick up any class and have options for defeating any other class, provided my build is suited for defeating their build. That’s balance.

Yes you are right GUARDians shouldn’t be able to GUARD stuff.

hmm the other day i faced a Warrior that was awesome at point holding / point defense. sure, call me bad, but i had a hard time standing toe to toe against him on point. given i wasn’t playing a “bunker” build myself, it took me by surprise.

point is, there are players out there that can achieve the same results as what you’re calling out here. though just perhaps not through the same means.

i’ve seen some pretty decent necros / rangers / engi’s bunker like crazy. ele’s are out of the question. so no, Guardian’s aren’t the only class that can do what we do. can we do it with more ease innately? sure. can no one hold points better than us though? i don’t think so.

Bash.7291:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Honestly Guardians are extremely good at holding points due to how the class was built. They were made with the ideal that once you are in a fight, you are stuck there, and thus we have the tools to make that happen, well at least in t/sPvp at least. The issue with guardians though falls into other pvp like WvW, where forcing people to stand in a small circle for a length of time doesn’t happen, and it shows how bad the profession is for CC/Mobility in a larger field.

I honestly consider it a semi even trade, We cant catch people to kill them in WvW, so we can defend points well in s/tPvP. Though it does suck playing a roaming guardian in WvW for that point -.-

i run dps gs / sword focus instant medi build in tpvp. and i have no problem catching people with insane speed.

Lighter.5631:

Bash.7291:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Honestly Guardians are extremely good at holding points due to how the class was built. They were made with the ideal that once you are in a fight, you are stuck there, and thus we have the tools to make that happen, well at least in t/sPvp at least. The issue with guardians though falls into other pvp like WvW, where forcing people to stand in a small circle for a length of time doesn’t happen, and it shows how bad the profession is for CC/Mobility in a larger field.

I honestly consider it a semi even trade, We cant catch people to kill them in WvW, so we can defend points well in s/tPvP. Though it does suck playing a roaming guardian in WvW for that point -.-

i run dps gs / sword focus instant medi build in tpvp. and i have no problem catching people with insane speed.

Does instant medi really make that much of a difference? I never tried it because it seemed like a wasted trait slot.

iirc, and from experience, i think instant medi only really affects Smite Condition (which can be useful in PvP). Judge’s and Contemplation should be instant already (might have to double check Contemplation).

depending on your build, instant medi is good for Smite Condition to get rid of the exact condition / get rid of a condition faster or to pull it off while not having to wait for your current animation / action to complete first.

unless, if i completely missed what Lighter meant by instant medi.

Seems like a waste to put a major trait into making smite condition trigger faster. The 5% of toughness to crit% seems like a much better choice.

you’re right in that from an activation time perspective, it’s only 1/4 of a second, but the strength lies in the fact that it can be cast during any other animation, thus the instant-ness.

akamon.2769:

you’re right in that from an activation time perspective, it’s only 1/4 of a second, but the strength lies in the fact that it can be cast during any other animation, thus the instant-ness.

I’d take it if it were say increases the damage of smite condition by 20% and makes it trigger instantly.

I guess, but I still think the player makes the class good, not the other way around. All classes I think have certain areas where they’ve very strong. Have a look at the way a thief can stealth in and out of combat so very often, for example.

Some good thieves/mesmers/rangers seems to cut up Guardians very well, all depends upon who’s at the keyboard pressing the buttons.

Sil.4560:

How about the classes like warrior, which are at an inherent disadvantage compared to guardian due to poor balancing? There’s no “choose a counter” or “skill or teamwork” about that, it’s merely balanced badly. This game isn’t well balanced and is undeniably still in need of some fixes. I should be able to pick up any class and have options for defeating any other class, provided my build is suited for defeating their build. That’s balance.

The game is pretty well balanced.
There is no perfect balance when you’re talking about different things, but since the game was designed in a way that the player’s actions play a bigger role than attributes, rotations and builds, means it’s ultimately up to you, the player, how the battle goes.

Guardian and Warrior have some decent 1v1s.
The issue is that Guardian’s lack of mobility is actually helpful in tPvP where you don’t want to be mobile at all, instead you just want to be able to hold your ground for as long as you can.
Professions such as Thieves and Elementalists that are balanced with their mobility in mind can’t even compare, and that’s why they focus on bunkering.

A good Thief can give a Guardian hell in WvW, but the same playstyle, which is pretty effective against Guardians, is meaningless in tPvP.

So don’t blame balance.

Sil.4560:

How about the classes like warrior, which are at an inherent disadvantage compared to guardian due to poor balancing?

This is a warrior problem, not a guardian problem. Warrior loses to practically everything and people that play tPvP know it. ANet has already said they’re going to be buffing warrior in future patches. Compared to other professions which are good in tPvP (ranger, mesmer, elementalist, engineer), guardian is even or at a slight disadvantage.

Sil.4560:

Don’t give me the same brainless argument that it’s “up to you”. Wrong. The game is not yet properly balanced against classes and this is a fact that even Anet agrees on, hence their efforts to buff classes like warrior in competitive play.

They’re buffing uncommon/unpopular builds, not the whole profession…

Sil.4560:

No amount of player skill is going to overcome vast statistical and mechanical advantages, no matter how much you try to rationalize it to yourself so that you can feel like you aren’t just using class advantage as a crutch.

Your “mechanical” advantages (and therefore statistical) don’t come from professions, but from the PvP design.
I repeat, you can’t expect a perfect balance when you’re dealing with 2 dif. things, but they’re well balanced for being different.

If they buffed Warriors to the point they would play exactly like Guardians in PvP (read as in easy mode, that’s how I think Guardians in PvP are), Warriors would simply be insanely overpowered in both PvE and WvW.

And playerskill is the most determining factor to the outcome, regardless of profession or build. That said…

Sil.4560:

You lose 1v1 to a warrior as your guardian? You should be ashamed.

…so if you’re playing a Warrior and you can’t kill a Guardian simply because they’re a Guardian, I have some bad news for you.

(Again, don’t blame the balance, if there’s anything that isn’t balanced is the PvP design of standing in circles, giving advantages to less mobile, more bunker-ish play styles)

Exedore.6320:

Compared to other professions which are good in tPvP (ranger, mesmer, elementalist, engineer), guardian is even or at a slight disadvantage.

I play Ele and Mesmer as well, and I disagree with you… I find my Guardian easily the best for PvP, it’s much easier holding points and require much less from me than when I play something else.

I could be biased though, if I play better with my Guardian than my Ele/Mesmer, but I don’t think that’s the case.

Danicco.3568:

Exedore.6320:

Compared to other professions which are good in tPvP (ranger, mesmer, elementalist, engineer), guardian is even or at a slight disadvantage.

I play Ele and Mesmer as well, and I disagree with you… I find my Guardian easily the best for PvP, it’s much easier holding points and require much less from me than when I play something else.

I could be biased though, if I play better with my Guardian than my Ele/Mesmer, but I don’t think that’s the case.

It’s your personal bias. However, guardian does have the benefit of being more forgiving of mistakes than any other profession. If you goof up a dodge, Aegis covers for you. You have lots of stability so you don’t need to deal with CC as much. It doesn’t mean it’s better.

Sil.4560:

And that design favors certain classes over others. This is what we call imbalance. You have failed to make a point.

Eh… no, because the game doesn’t revolve only around that.
Classes works differently and some are better than others because of the role they play in each area, such as how I think Guardians sucks for Sieges while other classes such as Elementalists have it easy.

I don’t call it imbalanced just because of that though, I understand my Guardian has it’s strong and weak points, asking to get rid of the weak points is what would create the imbalance (just imagine a Guardian as strong as an Elementalist because our range currently sucks).

Sil.4560:

Once again, split skills. WvW still needs about as much help as PvP does because the same glaring flaws exist regarding the warrior class against other professions. Thus it does need help in both modes. And once again, a class being good in PvE but bad in PvP is not balance. It’s a pitiful excuse to make sure the warrior doesn’t threaten your precious guardian.

I think the problem isn’t with numbers only, it’s mechanics. Guardians excel at bunkering, and that’s what PvP is about.
Unless they change how Guardians are meant to be played, making it a weaker bunker, but then they’d need to improve our mobility or ranged, making us exactly like… Warriors?

Sil.4560:

This game takes very little real skill, even in PvP. What you are left with is balancing classes against one another because people with half a brain know how to optimize their play and use advantages of a class as they are.

Even if you consider it little skill, it’s still 1000% more than clicking on rotations and depending largely on gear (and consequently, builds) and team comps.

Sil.4560:

snip

All I am reading from you is a bunch of poor arguments which try to rationalize the fact that classes themselves are not yet properly balanced to make yourself feel better about playing a class which you yourself defined as “easy mode”.

Bottom line, yes, I can agree with OP’s original thoughts that guardians are easymode.

Funny, because all I am reading from you is a rant of how you’d wish your profession of choice (which seems to be Warriors) were easier to play or more represented in PvP, out of… jealously?

As I stated before, I also play an Elementalist and Mesmer in both PvP and WvW.
Personally I enjoy my Elementalist more, and I’m also frustrated at how hard I have to play to achieve the same results as my Guardian.

I feel the limitations of being unable to do as much damage/harassing in 1vX and I feel the most frustrated when I face another bunker and after a long fight we both (me and the opponent) think _"eh, let’s move elsewhere this is going nowhere".

I do, however, feel a bit more happy when I think about the things that my Guardian can’t do, such as combos, exceptional control, awesome mobility and better on-demand bursts.

Too bad that these alone aren’t what determines a win/lose in a PvP match.

I don’t see how can you consider this to be unbalanced though, it’s just that Guardians excel at bunkering, but this comes with a cost.

Sil.4560:

Being good in one mode (PvE) and poor in another (PvP/WvW) is not sufficient balance. It means they haven’t properly balanced each mode yet, which is what they’re aiming to do with split skills and general buffs that don’t make the class OP in, say, PvE.

And frankly, if all professions achieved this balance you speak of, the game would become boring.

WoW (World of Warcraft, not sure if you’ve played it before) once had different classes and they all played differently. Balance was always a topic for discussion.
And then, they decide to homogenize everything, pretty much everyone had the same type of skills, same controls, same everything.

The main difference became your character’s color tag and armor looks, and this was when I (and other 3 million) people quit.

So, TLDR, what I’m trying to say is, don’t try to face other profession’s strengths with your profession’s weaknesses and call it imbalance, instead, look for other ways of how you can succeed and provide support and you’ll fare much better.

Lighter.5631:

Bash.7291:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Honestly Guardians are extremely good at holding points due to how the class was built. They were made with the ideal that once you are in a fight, you are stuck there, and thus we have the tools to make that happen, well at least in t/sPvp at least. The issue with guardians though falls into other pvp like WvW, where forcing people to stand in a small circle for a length of time doesn’t happen, and it shows how bad the profession is for CC/Mobility in a larger field.

I honestly consider it a semi even trade, We cant catch people to kill them in WvW, so we can defend points well in s/tPvP. Though it does suck playing a roaming guardian in WvW for that point -.-

i run dps gs / sword focus instant medi build in tpvp. and i have no problem catching people with insane speed.

Thats why I said we have issues catching people in WvW, not s/tPvP… I have no issues either in there, but WvW is a completely different issue.

akamon.2769:

iirc, and from experience, i think instant medi only really affects Smite Condition (which can be useful in PvP). Judge’s and Contemplation should be instant already (might have to double check Contemplation).

depending on your build, instant medi is good for Smite Condition to get rid of the exact condition / get rid of a condition faster or to pull it off while not having to wait for your current animation / action to complete first.

unless, if i completely missed what Lighter meant by instant medi.

The trait was alot more usefull before, when contemplation was not a stun break and had a cast time, however they changed it a long time ago so now only merciful intervention and smite condition have a cast time. And honestly Smite condition’s 1/4 second cast time is pretty much nothing and shouldn’t really mess with any other skills. Merciful’s randomness pushes alot of people away from it already so the trait really is not as useful as other ones in that skill tree.

Sil.4560:

Danicco.3568:

They’re buffing uncommon/unpopular builds, not the whole profession…

That’s why we got traits like Dogged March, Destruction of the Empowered, and Burst Mastery, right? Obviously those are aimed at “uncommon/unpopular builds”, lolz.

No, they’re aiming to buff the class as a whole while simultaneously improve those underused build characteristics in order to make the warrior viable at all.

Your “mechanical” advantages (and therefore statistical) don’t come from professions, but from the PvP design.

And that design favors certain classes over others. This is what we call imbalance. You have failed to make a point.

I repeat, you can’t expect a perfect balance when you’re dealing with 2 dif. things, but they’re well balanced for being different.

Being good in one mode (PvE) and poor in another (PvP/WvW) is not sufficient balance. It means they haven’t properly balanced each mode yet, which is what they’re aiming to do with split skills and general buffs that don’t make the class OP in, say, PvE.

If they buffed Warriors to the point they would play exactly like Guardians in PvP (read as in easy mode, that’s how I think Guardians in PvP are), Warriors would simply be insanely overpowered in both PvE and WvW.

Once again, split skills. WvW still needs about as much help as PvP does because the same glaring flaws exist regarding the warrior class against other professions. Thus it does need help in both modes. And once again, a class being good in PvE but bad in PvP is not balance. It’s a pitiful excuse to make sure the warrior doesn’t threaten your precious guardian.

And playerskill is the most determining factor to the outcome, regardless of profession or build. That said…

This game takes very little real skill, even in PvP. What you are left with is balancing classes against one another because people with half a brain know how to optimize their play and use advantages of a class as they are.

…so if you’re playing a Warrior and you can’t kill a Guardian simply because they’re a Guardian, I have some bad news for you.

I guess it’s a good thing your bad news is based on idiotic assumptions then. I can kill guardians, the problem is that the class is way too forgiving in terms of dealing with what the warrior has to offer in both competitive modes. It’s a class that enables players of lower skill to compete with those of higher skill because of innate class advantage. Once again, this is imbalance, and no amount of pitiful rationalization on your part in the terms of “BUT THEY’RE GOOD IN PVE ALREADY!” will change this undeniable fact.

(Again, don’t blame the balance, if there’s anything that isn’t balanced is the PvP design of standing in circles, giving advantages to less mobile, more bunker-ish play styles)

The same flaws also hold true for WvW; class mechanics remain the same with only a few splits between PvE and PvP-changed skills. Saying “don’t blame the balance” is not an argument and you have ultimately failed to provide any sort of support for your stance that this game is, in fact, truly balanced and that guardians and warriors have equal footing in terms of 1v1.

All I am reading from you is a bunch of poor arguments which try to rationalize the fact that classes themselves are not yet properly balanced to make yourself feel better about playing a class which you yourself defined as “easy mode”.

Bottom line, yes, I can agree with OP’s original thoughts that guardians are easymode.

I didnt read any of your posts in this thread but I have seen you post walls of text in pretty much every thread Ive seen on this forum. From what I can tell you think warrior is bad and guardian good. Have you ever thought of playing a guardian so we can finally be rid of your 24/7 posting. Its pretty clear guardian is class choice for you since it does everything, you clearly are just nerfing yourself unless you play it. Unless you are not serious and are just trolling, in which case troll away, but do it in warrior forum so we dont have your clutter.

JaNordy.6149:

I didnt read any of your posts in this thread but I have seen you post walls of text in pretty much every thread Ive seen on this forum. From what I can tell you think warrior is bad and guardian good. Have you ever thought of playing a guardian so we can finally be rid of your 24/7 posting. Its pretty clear guardian is class choice for you since it does everything, you clearly are just nerfing yourself unless you play it. Unless you are not serious and are just trolling, in which case troll away, but do it in warrior forum so we dont have your clutter.

I want fair game balance, not to coast on the easiest mode of play I can find. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised if this is difficult for you to comprehend. I’ve got every right to post here, especially since guardians being an innately forgiving and easy class is the exact nature of this thread.

Sil.4560:

Don’t be dumb. I’m tired of overly forgiving classes like guardians being such a faceroll while I’m actually playing a class that requires some semblance of effort to achieve the same results. I’m here as a reminder that no, you aren’t as fantastic as you think you are, and that you’re hiding behind class imbalance for a number of your successes. As soon as we get ways to bring down this noob-friendly bunker blight easier, things will be much better.

So you are here in the guardian forums to do nothing but complain about guardians… at least that is what I hear in pretty much every single thread you reply in. And before the “You only say that because you play a faceroll bunker class” comment back at me, I only play damage based builds, not bunkers.

Good for you, you’re not playing easymode. That said, your class still has more options available for viable builds than a class like the warrior does, which is something that needs to change also. Forcing classes into little holes so that they can only play one or so viable roles is a horrible way to design a game with competitive play, IMO.

@Sil
Are we here again? Warrior is just as simple to play as guardian, the only aspects of it though is that Guardians have more defensive options vs warrior who have more offensive options. Bunker Guardians, give up higher damage and honestly don’t really have much on demand escape buttons like warriors do. Vs a guardian who at the most has 1-3 somewhat situational escape skills on specific builds? Necros and Mesmers ruin a guardian’s day or make it even more difficult to deal with multiple foes. If you’re complaining about Guardians Bunkering, have you ever played against good mesmers, or thieves? You wanna call Imba, look at the other classes. THere are other mechanics that makes those classes much more of a pain tpo deal with then a bunker guardian.

Sil.4560:

This is why warriors – and possibly other classes – need better ways to cleave through the overkill bunker problem we have now.

This isn’t a problem to PvP, it affects the entire game.
If you played other MMOs you might notice that there is a certain point that everyone picks damage over defense, because the faster you kill, the less damage you take and is a generally much better bet than trying to outlast opponents.

In GW2 it is different, there is no point of damage that you’ll achieve and 1~2 shot people so you don’t have to build for defense.
This means, in a competitive scenario, bunkers are better than non-bunkers.

But this isn’t relevant to the discussion so I’ll leave it at that…

Sil.4560:

The “cost” is not as high for some classes (read: guardians) as for others. This is imbalance. This isn’t a difficult concept.

Do you play Guardian at all?

When I lost my first 1v1 to a Thief/Elementalist because they could outrun me in WvW, I hated Guardians.
When I was behind the gate watching it go down without anything worthwhile to do, I hated Guardians.
When I fought those “no melee allowed” fights, watching everyone else going ranged and I’m having to work 10x as hard to survive as a melee in a melee-unfriendly fight, I hated Guardians (lies, I enjoyed it because of the challenge).

Terrible range, no escape, weak mobility, poor target control, weak on-demand burst, lowest health forcing me to build/gear for it, highest healing cooldowns, melee-focused (means I can be kited)…

If Guardians were weaker than Warriors in melee, that I’d call imbalance. But no, I say they’re evenly balanced so it’s not a point to complain.

Sil.4560:

You yourself have admitted that you need to put forth a higher amount of effort on one class to achieve the same result as another. To say that one class is often innately more rewarding than another for less effort while trying to preach that it is purely up to player skill is a blatant contradiction.

This is only regarding PvP.
I can easily outdo my Guardian’s performance by 1000% with an Elementalist in WvW with even less effort, because the mechanics there allow me to.
They give me plenty of space to kite and run, and huge walls to protect me so I can focus only on offense. I can for sure say that I got 10 or 20 times the amount of kills on my Elementalist than my Guardian in WvW, despite having played the Guardian longer.

Now, I don’t expect to be able to outdo a heavy melee-focused profession in… melee.

And unfortunately, the point capping mechanic in PvP gives them room for it.

Sil.4560:

I should be able to pick up any class and have a reasonable expectation of defeating any other class, provided my build is suited to that task against their build.

Then rejoice, because you already can.
You can defeat any profession based purely on your skills alone, but it doesn’t mean you can win situations.

If you’re still not getting what I’m saying, try some WvW roaming. No objectives around, nearly open fields with few obstacles around, and have your matches with people around.
This is balance.

If you’re dead bent on beating Guardians on their own bunker game with another profession, then go check the PvP forums to look for professions who can pull it.
I’ve read that Engineers are pretty good at it, and Elementalists as well.

Sil.4560:

Good for you, you’re not playing easymode. That said, your class still has more options available for viable builds than a class like the warrior does, which is something that needs to change also. Forcing classes into little holes so that they can only play one or so viable roles is a horrible way to design a game with competitive play, IMO.

Viable builds…. 10/30/30/0/0 RHS builds, 0/x/30/30/x AH/EM builds, 0/0/10/30/30 Healway builds. Though there are some slight variations to these builds, all in all, we have about 3 well used viable builds. Yes there are random off builds (like the one I use) But those are generally specific to the person that uses them, and set for that one person’s playstyle. What I find funny is that a warrior also has things things that we don’t have, such as range and mobility and CC, which in WvW (which is my main focus) are huge and can determine the outcome of the battle. To gain any of these (except for range, which we have 0 of because of scepter AA speed) We have to sacrifice alot. I would honestly kill just to get a little bit of the CC that a warrior has, maybe I could kill runners in WvW at that point.

Danicco.3568:

This isn’t a problem to PvP, it affects the entire game.
If you played other MMOs you might notice that there is a certain point that everyone picks damage over defense, because the faster you kill, the less damage you take and is a generally much better bet than trying to outlast opponents.

In GW2 it is different, there is no point of damage that you’ll achieve and 1~2 shot people so you don’t have to build for defense.
This means, in a competitive scenario, bunkers are better than non-bunkers.

But this isn’t relevant to the discussion so I’ll leave it at that…

No, this is a problem too. It shouldn’t be balanced heavily in favor either way.

Do you play Guardian at all?

When I lost my first 1v1 to a Thief/Elementalist because they could outrun me in WvW, I hated Guardians.
When I was behind the gate watching it go down without anything worthwhile to do, I hated Guardians.
When I fought those “no melee allowed” fights, watching everyone else going ranged and I’m having to work 10x as hard to survive as a melee in a melee-unfriendly fight, I hated Guardians (lies, I enjoyed it because of the challenge).

If you were running from the thief/ele, you lost before they could chase you down. There is plenty you can do in fights that appear to favor the ranged. I run full melee in WvW and have great success, because I know when and where to drop siege, and the best moments to run out and cause some chaos in the enemy zerg. Guardians can do both of those things just as well.

Terrible range, no escape, weak mobility, poor target control, weak on-demand burst, lowest health forcing me to build/gear for it, highest healing cooldowns, melee-focused (means I can be kited)…

If Guardians were weaker than Warriors in melee, that I’d call imbalance. But no, I say they’re evenly balanced so it’s not a point to complain.

All of that, yet balanced out with such ridiculously over-the-top sustain and damage reduction that the only other primarily melee class in the game can barely touch them. They are far from being fairly balanced with one another. If you can’t see that warriors need serious help in competitive game modes, you’re completely detached from reality. Guardians have far too much advantage, one on one.

Sil.4560:

This is only regarding PvP.
I can easily outdo my Guardian’s performance by 1000% with an Elementalist in WvW with even less effort, because the mechanics there allow me to.
They give me plenty of space to kite and run, and huge walls to protect me so I can focus only on offense. I can for sure say that I got 10 or 20 times the amount of kills on my Elementalist than my Guardian in WvW, despite having played the Guardian longer.

So how are those duels with warrior treating you? Let me know how the effort ranks there compared to either guard or ele.

Now, I don’t expect to be able to outdo a heavy melee-focused profession in… melee.

And unfortunately, the point capping mechanic in PvP gives them room for it.

Clearly you do expect that. Because right now the balance is in favor of guardians and you’re a-okay with it.

Then rejoice, because you already can.
You can defeat any profession based purely on your skills alone, but it doesn’t mean you can win situations.

If you’re still not getting what I’m saying, try some WvW roaming. No objectives around, nearly open fields with few obstacles around, and have your matches with people around.
This is balance.

Wrong. This is exactly where class imbalance shows the most. Warrior is at a distinct disadvantage against pretty much every other class out there when roaming. If you’re getting your kitten beat that badly by roaming warriors as a bunker-oriented guardian, you should be pretty embarrassed. Even worse if it’s happening to a mesmer. If you think a mesmer and a warrior are fairly balanced 1v1, you’re on crack.

If you’re dead bent on beating Guardians on their own bunker game with another profession, then go check the PvP forums to look for professions who can pull it.
I’ve read that Engineers are pretty good at it, and Elementalists as well.

“Play another class” is not balance. It’s another cop-out to avoid the real issue of fairly balancing classes.

Bash.7291:

Viable builds…. 10/30/30/0/0 RHS builds, 0/x/30/30/x AH/EM builds, 0/0/10/30/30 Healway builds. Though there are some slight variations to these builds, all in all, we have about 3 well used viable builds. Yes there are random off builds (like the one I use) But those are generally specific to the person that uses them, and set for that one person’s playstyle. What I find funny is that a warrior also has things things that we don’t have, such as range and mobility and CC, which in WvW (which is my main focus) are huge and can determine the outcome of the battle. To gain any of these (except for range, which we have 0 of because of scepter AA speed) We have to sacrifice alot. I would honestly kill just to get a little bit of the CC that a warrior has, maybe I could kill runners in WvW at that point.

What I’m saying is that warriors have far fewer viable options for builds. In fact, every class suffers from a distinct lack of diversity, but you can really see it in the game’s weakest competitive class.

Being able to “kill runners” is crap. One doesn’t give a solid contribution to a WvW effort by picking on an enemy who has already lost. Warriors should not be so team dependent as to rely on others to stand their most reasonable chance at victory – that is what I am saying. They need to be made more of an independently viable class. Hopefully that makes sense.

Sil.4560:

No, this is a problem too. It shouldn’t be balanced heavily in favor either way.

I think it’s best this way actually, you can’t (usually) get 1~2 shotted since this would heavily favor professions that works with “gimmicks” as defense (remember Thieves before the Signet nerf?).

Sil.4560:

If you were running from the thief/ele, you lost before they could chase you down. There is plenty you can do in fights that appear to favor the ranged. I run full melee in WvW and have great success, because I know when and where to drop siege, and the best moments to run out and cause some chaos in the enemy zerg. Guardians can do both of those things just as well.

It was a simple 1v1 fight on the road, no one was “running” away.
There was no siege, no mobs, no other objectives around. And I’m fairly confidant in my skills for 1v1 as a Guardian, seeing as I always won the damage dealt/damage taken ratio game against pretty much anyone.

The 1v1s I lost I was totally outplayed because they just didn’t play into my game, instead, they focused highly on theirs which is control and mobility.

As an example, they didn’t get hit once by any Symbol (as one should expect), I couldn’t chain 2 attacks in a row, let alone complete a combo, at all, and I was totally kited, ranged, and occasionally melee’d to waste some CDs.

Even when I put up a decent fight, they had no problems running away for a few seconds more to come back right away. I cursed my healing on high cooldowns, while I watched them heal nonstop (or stealth nonstop).

This doesn’t happen in PvP though.
If they’re not close to melee range and taking my Symbols damage and/or wasting dodges and movements to avoid them, I’m capping the point.

(By the way I started my Elementalist and then Mesmer just because I hated losing to roamers on my Guardian in WvW)
(ps. read as great roamers, because mediocre players can’t play on your profession limitations and definitely don’t work on theirs)

Sil.4560:

All of that, yet balanced out with such ridiculously over-the-top sustain and damage reduction that the only other primarily melee class in the game can barely touch them. They are far from being fairly balanced with one another. If you can’t see that warriors need serious help in competitive game modes, you’re completely detached from reality. Guardians have far too much advantage, one on one.

Do you realize that Warriors have more mobility (in & out), more control, more burst, better raw stats, better ranged options than Guardians?

So, if you’re not detached from reality, do you really think that Warriors having equal or superior melee prowess wouldn’t be imbalanced?

Sil.4560:

So how are those duels with warrior treating you? Let me know how the effort ranks there compared to either guard or ele.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I don’t play Warrior.

Sil.4560:

Clearly you do expect that. Because right now the balance is in favor of guardians and you’re a-okay with it.

What sort of game are we playing right now? I said I don’t expect, you say I do… are you having fun? I’m glad then.

Sil.4560:

If you’re getting your kitten beat that badly by roaming warriors as a bunker-oriented guardian, you should be pretty embarrassed. Even worse if it’s happening to a mesmer. If you think a mesmer and a warrior are fairly balanced 1v1, you’re on crack.

Now here’s something new!
You do know that Mesmers are pretty much unbeatable in 1v1s, right?
I think that, even being the profession I have the least experience with, I can easily beat pretty much anyone who lets me get close for a second or two.
Even overpowered Guardians.

Too bad they’re not as great for everything else such as support and bunkering eh?

Sil.4560:

“Play another class” is not balance. It’s another cop-out to avoid the real issue of fairly balancing classes.

No, the real issue here is you.
You’re complaining you can’t beat a Guardian on a bunker game (capping points in PvP) because they’re too strong.
Why don’t you try to fight an Elementalist or Ranger with your Rifle alone, and then go complain Warriors need serious help because they can’t beat Elementalists on a ranged fight? (on their forums)

If you get into the Guardians’ game of meleeing, you’re going to lose.
If you’re taking damage from Symbols and Retaliation, you’re doing it wrong, and you will lose.
The same way the Guardian will lose if he ever gets off their game and attempts to play a mobility/ranged game, or if he gets kited.

This is the best tip I can give you, besides saying “L2P” (which I’m trying to avoid).

This also has been dragged enough, with a few flame attempts, and it’s now a rant, not a discussion, so I’m quitting it.

Danicco.3568:

I think it’s best this way actually, you can’t (usually) get 1~2 shotted since this would heavily favor professions that works with “gimmicks” as defense (remember Thieves before the Signet nerf?).

That would be in favor of the other side. It needs to be balanced. If there are bunkers, there needs to be ways to counter bunkers instead of just turning everything into some silly battle of who has the class with the better sustain.

It was a simple 1v1 fight on the road, no one was “running” away.
There was no siege, no mobs, no other objectives around. And I’m fairly confidant in my skills for 1v1 as a Guardian, seeing as I always won the damage dealt/damage taken ratio game against pretty much anyone.

The 1v1s I lost I was totally outplayed because they just didn’t play into my game, instead, they focused highly on theirs which is control and mobility.

As an example, they didn’t get hit once by any Symbol (as one should expect), I couldn’t chain 2 attacks in a row, let alone complete a combo, at all, and I was totally kited, ranged, and occasionally melee’d to waste some CDs.

Even when I put up a decent fight, they had no problems running away for a few seconds more to come back right away. I cursed my healing on high cooldowns, while I watched them heal nonstop (or stealth nonstop).

Sounds like you weren’t playing against a warrior then, lolz. Warrior sustain is next to nothing and our mobility is about as linear as it gets. This is why I have a problem with how guardians are balanced in comparison.

This doesn’t happen in PvP though.
If they’re not close to melee range and taking my Symbols damage and/or wasting dodges and movements to avoid them, I’m capping the point.

(By the way I started my Elementalist and then Mesmer just because I hated losing to roamers on my Guardian in WvW)
(ps. read as great roamers, because mediocre players can’t play on your profession limitations and definitely don’t work on theirs)

Your fault for not being more aware of your surroundings. I don’t get caught without an escape route because I’m expecting ambush at any time. /shrug

Do you realize that Warriors have more mobility (in & out), more control, more burst, better raw stats, better ranged options than Guardians?

No, because there needs to be a way to actually deal sufficient damage to finish the job without just watching the guardian walk away to the nearest portal because our ranged damage is poor for the task. Closing the distance means fighting on the guardian’s terms, which is where the game becomes unbalanced. In and out means little because it’s just giving the class with the better sustain time to heal up and buff themselves further.

So, if you’re not detached from reality, do you really think that Warriors having equal or superior melee prowess wouldn’t be imbalanced?

lol? How would equal melee prowess be unbalanced? Warriors are the other primary melee class in this game. To insist that guardians should be simply better at it is absurd at best.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I don’t play Warrior.

Try dueling some other classes as a warrior sometime and note the effort vs. return for the class. This is exactly why they need buffed.

What sort of game are we playing right now? I said I don’t expect, you say I do… are you having fun? I’m glad then.

Now here’s something new!
You do know that Mesmers are pretty much unbeatable in 1v1s, right?
I think that, even being the profession I have the least experience with, I can easily beat pretty much anyone who lets me get close for a second or two.
Even overpowered Guardians.

Mesmers are another problem that other classes need buffed to equal.

Too bad they’re not as great for everything else such as support and bunkering eh?

Mesmers, bad at support? You’re kidding.

No, the real issue here is you.
You’re complaining you can’t beat a Guardian on a bunker game (capping points in PvP) because they’re too strong.
Why don’t you try to fight an Elementalist or Ranger with your Rifle alone, and then go complain Warriors need serious help because they can’t beat Elementalists on a ranged fight? (on their forums)

Your statement makes no sense. Warriors are, as stated by Anet (even in the guardian’s description), the other class that needs to be in melee range to use its full potential. So yes, I do expect to be as proficient at melee as the other melee class.

If you get into the Guardians’ game of meleeing, you’re going to lose.

And, for a class designed also to melee, this is completely unbalanced and unacceptable. Especially since I see so many of you guardians crying about your scepter in another thread.

If you’re taking damage from Symbols and Retaliation, you’re doing it wrong, and you will lose.

Symbols are crap. Retaliation is an easily spammed boon that rewards incompetent players for getting beat on because it’s so easy to abuse “try 2 die” bunker tactics.

The same way the Guardian will lose if he ever gets off their game and attempts to play a mobility/ranged game, or if he gets kited.

Too bad this is not feasible in most situations and trying to kite any guardian with half a brain will just result in them running off to the nearest escape. If they’ve positioned themselves so poorly as to not be able to do so, that is purely their problem.

This is the best tip I can give you, besides saying “L2P” (which I’m trying to avoid).

Too late, your post already drips of “L2P” in order to rationalize the class advantage that very much exists. It boggles my mind that anyone can truly believe that the classes in this game are well balanced at present. Your “tip” is nothing more than “the game is unbalanced and that’s how it should be”. You have no argument.

This also has been dragged enough, with a few flame attempts, and it’s now a rant, not a discussion, so I’m quitting it.

Kay. Enjoy your game cowering behind class advantage.

Bash.7291:

Viable builds…. 10/30/30/0/0 RHS builds, 0/x/30/30/x AH/EM builds, 0/0/10/30/30 Healway builds. Though there are some slight variations to these builds, all in all, we have about 3 well used viable builds. Yes there are random off builds (like the one I use) But those are generally specific to the person that uses them, and set for that one person’s playstyle. What I find funny is that a warrior also has things things that we don’t have, such as range and mobility and CC, which in WvW (which is my main focus) are huge and can determine the outcome of the battle. To gain any of these (except for range, which we have 0 of because of scepter AA speed) We have to sacrifice alot. I would honestly kill just to get a little bit of the CC that a warrior has, maybe I could kill runners in WvW at that point.

AH builds aren’t the only viable builds for Guardians. I keep saying this but meditation builds are just as viable / disruptive, and they don’t have to have the crutch of boons to be useful. Any boons on a meditation Guardian makes him/her that much stronger since it’s a skill / timing based gameplay.

Some Guardian CC / area control that is available to us that is invaluable in most wvw encounters: Bane Signet active (2 sec knockdown), Signet of Wrath active (3 sec immobilize), Binding Blade (greatsword #5), Ring of Warding (hammer #5), Line of Warding (staff #5), Zealot’s Embrace (hammer #3), Shield of Absorption (shield #5), Chains of Light (scepter #3), Sanctuary (consecration), Wall of Reflection (consecration), Hammer of Wisdom spirit weapon active.

Some mobility options Guardians have: Retreat (shout), Save Yourselves (shout), Judge’s Intervention (meditation), Flashing Blade (sword #2), Symbol of Swiftness (staff #3), Contemplation of Purity (meditation; counts if it converts a snare to swiftness), Leap of Faith (greatsword #3), Might Blow (short hammer #2 jump, but good at closing the distance in a fight)

As for ranged autoattack options are few and far between I’ll give you that. However Smite, Zealot’s Fire, Zealot’s Embrace and Ray of Judgement are 1200m attacks, and with the exception of Ray of Judgement are on really short cooldowns. Then there’s Zealot’s Defense, and Shield of Judgement at 900m, then staff autoattack, and Binding Blade at 600m, iirc.

As for ‘sacrificing a lot for CC / mobility’ I literally sacrifice none. Hammer / scepter & torch in a meditation builds has worked wonders both in wvw and spvp, both for damage and control. With this particular setup not only am I using JI to jump around, but I’m denying enemy movement with all the immobilizes I have at my disposal (imo way more important since that’s more work your target has to put out to try and escape if at all), plus ring of warding. Lastly conditions fall off me like water droplets since smite condition / contemplation of purity not only remove them, but heal me on use as well as aoe damage or convert conditions to boons.

So there’s A LOT of options available. Certain builds / weapon wield styles have their pros and cons, which is how it should be. Like I mentioned in the paragraph above there are very few instances where I cannot keep chase with someone or pin them.

A well-built shield warrior is on par with guardian in terms of raw bunker ability. Just sayin’.

Setun.4368:

Alot of stuff

…. I run a meditation build, and have for a very long time now….

CC:
Bane signet: Pretty good
Signet of wrath: Horrible passive
Binding blade: Decent but any charge/teleport is going to put the enemy out of the 600 yard pull range
Ring of warding: Buggy as hell, people can get out without stability
Line of warding: Same issue as ring of warding, also on a support weapon.
Zealot’s embrace: Easily dodged outside of like 400 range due to it being a slow moving straight line.
Shield of absorbtion: Pushes people away… not exactly the best thing for a guardian to do when trying to chase someone.
Chains of light: Good
Sanctuary: Long CD, also does nothing to keep people near you unless you have ground targeting and place it infront/in tight areas.
Wall of reflection: Helps great against ranged, does nothing to keep people near you
Spirit hammer: pretty bad now that they can be killed, and requires a very specific trait set up to use correctly. only useful in spvp

Retreat: Horrible utility to have on a med build, or any build in general, long cd, and only gives one aegis block, it is literally nothing more than a 20sec swiftness on a 60 sec cd
Save yourselves: Good utility, but once again, wasted on a med build due to long CD
JI: Best utility we have IMO, never leaves my bar, but also requires a target and has a 45 sec cd (less if traited, but still long for a gap closer)
Flashing Blade: Pretty good, does need an enemy to use correctly as well.
Symbol of swiftness: Doesnt stack correctly with other swiftness buffs, also on a support weapon
Contemplation: I wouldn’t really call this mobility, it might give you swiftness at times and yes it does clear CC, but it doesnt really do much to catch up to people. That being said it is still a great utility
Leap of faith: Good gap closer, but has slight terrain issues.
Mighty Blow: … a 300 range attack… it barely gets you anywhere.

Also keep in mind, that you list all this stuff, but ALOT of it you cant have at once, like hammer has great CC, and 0 gap closing. 1h sword has a gap closer but no CC, in a meditation build you have to run at least 2 meditations, one of which is smite condition and generally the other is judges. while judges is great, if someone has swiftness they instantly outrun you after you use it. That leaves your room for 1 more utility, which is not going to be enough to pin someone down for long enough.

The big issue is that without hammer/scepter, we don’t have much CC to follow our gap closers up with, and even then, half the time we have to use CC to even be able to land our hits. (Zealots defense due to the nature of the projectiles, WW, due to slow movement speed, smite due to small area targeting) that leaves us having to burn our CC just land hits and not to actually keep an enemy close.

Just as an example of how much CC we honestly lack:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun
Only necros and guardians are the only classes in the game without stuns
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple
Only class in the game with horrible cripple ability (underwater downed skill, and elite tome which nobody uses)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
Only available on an elite tome
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill
Only available on a horrible trait with a huge CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
The only CC we have, Which alot of other classes have as well.

Bash.7291:

Just as an example of how much CC we honestly lack:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun
Only necros and guardians are the only classes in the game without stuns
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple
Only class in the game with horrible cripple ability (underwater downed skill, and elite tome which nobody uses)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
Only available on an elite tome
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill
Only available on a horrible trait with a huge CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
The only CC we have, Which alot of other classes have as well.

You’re kidding right? Push, Pull, Launch don’t count as CC? They are by far the most valuable hard CC’s in a conquest game.

Additionally Ring of Warding and Line of Warding are unique mechanics that are not available to any other class, and the ability to prevent opponents from entering the node space is also wildly valuable. If an opponent touches either, then they are also hard CC’d.

Guardian isn’t perfect, but CC is not what it is lacking.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bash.7291:

Just as an example of how much CC we honestly lack:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun
Only necros and guardians are the only classes in the game without stuns
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple
Only class in the game with horrible cripple ability (underwater downed skill, and elite tome which nobody uses)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
Only available on an elite tome
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill
Only available on a horrible trait with a huge CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize
The only CC we have, Which alot of other classes have as well.

You’re kidding right? Push, Pull, Launch don’t count as CC? They are by far the most valuable hard CC’s in a conquest game.

Additionally Ring of Warding and Line of Warding are unique mechanics that are not available to any other class, and the ability to prevent opponents from entering the node space is also wildly valuable. If an opponent touches either, then they are also hard CC’d.

Guardian isn’t perfect, but CC is not what it is lacking.

Once again, I talk regarding WvW as I have mentioned 2 previous times in this thread. Yes, launch and knockback are CCs which do 0 for keeping enemies near you, which is a problem for guardians in WvW. Yes, Ring of warding and line of warding are good, but are also completely negated by stability, which everyone and their mother spams now, and are also broken mechanics which can be dodged and actually JUMPED over. As far as pulls go we have 1, which falls off the second that someone goes out of 600 range of, which as I said, is as simple as a charge or teleport ability, Also Binding blades has a very distinctive animation that makes it very easy to outright dodge.

And before the “this isnt a WvW thread comment”, I brought it up because of the fact that we are great in spvp only because we have point control, in other parts of the game, such as WvW, we are lacking.

Bash.7291:

Words.

The point of my post was to show that there’s options. Now whether you want to complain about said options having a counter is your business, but the fact remains that we have tons of ways to keep in someone’s face, or at least control their movements. Every class has a way of negating / dodging their CC moves (i.e. blind will kitten over a ranger’s entangle and put it on full cooldown), and we ways of impairing their movement skills through knockdowns, and knockbacks. Also just a fun fact immobilizes still work on people who run with stability, so even if they walk out of your ring / line ward you can still keep them pinned for a few seconds via immobilizes. I do everything under the sun on my Guardian from solo roaming to zerging, and in none of those cases do I ever have an issue with chasing down enemies (unless they hide behind their gates), or getting away from what could be a bad situation. Do I still get caught / does an enemy escape? Of course, it’s going to happen sometimes, but I don’t run around crying that we have 0 ways of hard CCing or chasing someone. kitten happens, just deal with it and move on.

Setun.4368:

Bash.7291:

Words.

The point of my post was to show that there’s options. Now whether you want to complain about said options having a counter is your business, but the fact remains that we have tons of ways to keep in someone’s face, or at least control their movements. Every class has a way of negating / dodging their CC moves (i.e. blind will kitten over a ranger’s entangle and put it on full cooldown), and we ways of impairing their movement skills through knockdowns, and knockbacks. Also just a fun fact immobilizes still work on people who run with stability, so even if they walk out of your ring / line ward you can still keep them pinned for a few seconds via immobilizes. I do everything under the sun on my Guardian from solo roaming to zerging, and in none of those cases do I ever have an issue with chasing down enemies (unless they hide behind their gates), or getting away from what could be a bad situation. Do I still get caught / does an enemy escape? Of course, it’s going to happen sometimes, but I don’t run around crying that we have 0 ways of hard CCing or chasing someone. kitten happens, just deal with it and move on.

Once again, My issue with ring/line of warding isn’t that stability counters them, its the fact that they are bugged to begin with and allow people to dodge roll/ jump over them. Also, Staff is a support weapon, yes its great for zergs and all, but as a roamer, it sucks.

Yes, immobilize sticks through stability as well, but out of our 3 sources of it, only 1 is good at any range, and is almost a requirement to land another attack on the same weapon. Signet of wrath has a horrible passive for guardians, and really should not be taken in any circumstance, Zealots embrace is decent, but can easily be side stepped outside of 400-600 range, and not dodge rolled, just strafing away from it is enough.

I mean, I can give you the list of every CC or gap closer off the wiki if you want, you will see that guardian is severely lacking in almost every aspect compared to most classes, and even more so compared to the other two melee classes thieves and warriors, who also even have ranged options.

Good for you on being able to chase everyone down though. I guess you don’t get many thieves/warriors/eles/rangers/mesmers that turn tail when they start to lose.

Bash.7291:

I mean, I can give you the list of every CC or gap closer off the wiki if you want, you will see that guardian is severely lacking in almost every aspect compared to most classes, and even more so compared to the other two melee classes thieves and warriors, who also even have ranged options.

Good for you on being able to chase everyone down though. I guess you don’t get many thieves/warriors/eles/rangers/mesmers that turn tail when they start to lose.

Agree to disagree. I find the amount of CC available to us to be pretty kitten good. All I ever see in wvw honestly are thieves and mesmers these days roaming; just have a knack for guessing when they’re going to try and run and making sure they can’t get very far after fighting so many for so long. /shrug

timidobserver.7925:

Lighter.5631:

Bash.7291:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Maybe I am over reacting, but I main a Necro, have played Thief, Mesmer an Ele as well (though I found pre-nerf ele bunkering to be so distasteful that I refused to do it). Now that I have spent a little time focusing on my Guardian in tPvP as a bunker I feel a bit like I am fishing with dynamite.

What I mean by that is I pugged a group and we rolled some premades that we really had no business beating based on talent just because their guard was bad and they could not neut the mid point, ever, unless we chose to let them. I don’t consider myself to even be good at Guard at this point, and it just seems like the sustain/CC combination that I can bring to a match requires SOOOOO much from the opponent to take me off point that as soon as I have a point in control there is no possible way that 2 players are going to neut the point on me unless they are both better players than I am, or my team has focused elsewhere and I know I am suiciding for points.

Has this occurred to anyone else playing Guard? I guess what I am saying is that in a game where standing in the circle is the single most important thing it seems like the Guardian is far better suited than anyone to do that without having to sacrifice the ability to contribute to team fights.

Can someone help ease my conscience on this please? I really am enjoying the CC machine bunker style play, but I know that I could not reproduce this result on any of the other classes I have played, and that bothers me.

Honestly Guardians are extremely good at holding points due to how the class was built. They were made with the ideal that once you are in a fight, you are stuck there, and thus we have the tools to make that happen, well at least in t/sPvp at least. The issue with guardians though falls into other pvp like WvW, where forcing people to stand in a small circle for a length of time doesn’t happen, and it shows how bad the profession is for CC/Mobility in a larger field.

I honestly consider it a semi even trade, We cant catch people to kill them in WvW, so we can defend points well in s/tPvP. Though it does suck playing a roaming guardian in WvW for that point -.-

i run dps gs / sword focus instant medi build in tpvp. and i have no problem catching people with insane speed.

Does instant medi really make that much of a difference? I never tried it because it seemed like a wasted trait slot.

Teleport, Aoe burns, amazing condition cleansing all in an instant, what else you can ask for

What a BS anecdotal post. If you feel “dirty” playing a guardian in spvp then you should feel dirty playing a ranger, elementalist, mesmer, or engineer all classes at least as strong in the own ways as a guardian in spvp. Don’t get me wrong Guardians are a very strong class in tpvp as are all the others I mentioned. Pretty assinine imo. Why do you play a Warrior then I guess guess getting your butt whopped will make you feel better. Comparing to a necro again is BS another class most people agree needs some help in tpvp. But really as long as you spec correctly ranger, mesmer ele, and engineer all good as well in tpvp.

Kwll.1468:

What a BS anecdotal post. If you feel “dirty” playing a guardian in spvp then you should feel dirty playing a ranger, elementalist, mesmer, or engineer all classes at least as strong in the own ways as a guardian in spvp. Don’t get me wrong Guardians are a very strong class in tpvp as are all the others I mentioned. Pretty assinine imo. Why do you play a Warrior then I guess guess getting your butt whopped will make you feel better. Comparing to a necro again is BS another class most people agree needs some help in tpvp. But really as long as you spec correctly ranger, mesmer ele, and engineer all good as well in tpvp.

I agree that Ranger, Ele, Mesmer and Engi are all strong classes as well, but you have not contributed anything intelligent to this discussion. Even though each of those professions is valuable in tourney play it seems to me that no class is more valuable than Guardian due to the ability to control real estate. Even a DPS Guard built with the idea in mind can carry enough knockbacks to quickly neut a point. Not even the other classes you mentioned can do this as effectively.

Also:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/asinine?s=t

If one intends to use the word asinine in a sentence, then one should know how to spell asinine.