Guild Wars 2

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

D’aaaaaaaw, well nothings concrete, since in ANETian “On the table” means “who the kitten knows”. Also, the trait could probably use being moved to another tree / being further along the Honor line, thoughts?

I’ll repaste the post I made in the December Patch thread, because the SNR is quite high in there atm:
If this change has been indeed been on the table, I find it a little odd that Vigorous Precision which is the cornerstone of so many guardian builds hasn’t had a direct mention in the guardian patch notes – as I think changes to it will absolutely require a lot of careful consideration.

The question is, what change to this would be acceptable as a guardian. When most professions complain about a Guardian’s access to Vigor, they’ve been stuck in an endless fight with a bunker or have been slowly whittled to death by a Healway. ( conveniently ignoring how little damage is being dealt in those kinds of battles )

On the other hand, a DPS guardian really relies on Vigor to survive more than the first few seconds of a fight against high CC or burst classes.

If you have 10-12k of HP and low toughness, if you can’t evade the skullcrack, shatter or heartseeker you are dead ( in one or two shots in most cases ). If you can’t dodge through a necro mark you are dead a few seconds later because we can’t remove conditions reliably at that end of the tree

A lot of builds are forced to either run duel energy runes or push 5 points into honor ( or both ).

If Anet are dead-set on pushing vigor traits into adept traits, then what are our options? 10 points investment in Virtues? ( since a lot of guards DPS or otherwise will throw 5 points in there anyway ): that severely limits the support guardians options in an important tree.

If you push it further into Honor to keep the Selfless Daring synergy you end up crippling many damage builds, and limiting shout or symbol effectiveness.

Short of making it a class mechanic ( Virtue of Alacrity? Passive vigor/active swiftness ), I’m at a loss to come up with something that wouldn’t screw over a significant number of builds ( replace Valor 15? ). Perhaps the goal is to just prevent 100% vigor uptime, which I can agree on – it which case you could make Honor 5 give you a flat Endurance regeneration boost ( +50%? )

I really hope we can just keep it as it.

As long as it isn’t moved into Valor or removed entirely, I don’t care too much. Everything else is within reach for a reasonable PvE build.

Tarsius.3170:

I’ll repaste the post I made in the December Patch thread, because the SNR is quite high in there atm:
If this change has been indeed been on the table, I find it a little odd that Vigorous Precision which is the cornerstone of so many guardian builds hasn’t had a direct mention in the guardian patch notes – as I think changes to it will absolutely require a lot of careful consideration.

The question is, what change to this would be acceptable as a guardian. When most professions complain about a Guardian’s access to Vigor, they’ve been stuck in an endless fight with a bunker or have been slowly whittled to death by a Healway. ( conveniently ignoring how little damage is being dealt in those kinds of battles )

On the other hand, a DPS guardian really relies on Vigor to survive more than the first few seconds of a fight against high CC or burst classes.

If you have 10-12k of HP and low toughness, if you can’t evade the skullcrack, shatter or heartseeker you are dead ( in one or two shots in most cases ). If you can’t dodge through a necro mark you are dead a few seconds later because we can’t remove conditions reliably at that end of the tree

A lot of builds are forced to either run duel energy runes or push 5 points into honor ( or both ).

If Anet are dead-set on pushing vigor traits into adept traits, then what are our options? 10 points investment in Virtues? ( since a lot of guards DPS or otherwise will throw 5 points in there anyway ): that severely limits the support guardians options in an important tree.

If you push it further into Honor to keep the Selfless Daring synergy you end up crippling many damage builds, and limiting shout or symbol effectiveness.

Short of making it a class mechanic ( Virtue of Alacrity? Passive vigor/active swiftness ), I’m at a loss to come up with something that wouldn’t screw over a significant number of builds ( replace Valor 15? ). Perhaps the goal is to just prevent 100% vigor uptime, which I can agree on – it which case you could make Honor 5 give you a flat Endurance regeneration boost ( +50%? )

I really hope we can just keep it as it.

My thoughts pretty much, if they were to move it they would reduce the potential number of builds which is opposite their goals. I can understand where permanent vigor for 5 points is an issue, but I also think it would harm build diversity to nerf it too significantly.

Not surprised at all.

Tbh i’m surprised of the opposite, i mean, that they haven’t planned already for December a nerf to Mes and Guard 5pt Permavigor traits, when in the same patch they’ll cut in half Ranger endurance regen, Engi vigor uptime and move Renewing stamina (still debating on this seems tho).

Anet wants us to be mobile buffbots that sit in the back of the lines while everyone else does the action! I called it first!

All joking aside, I think it might be time to hang GW2 up for awhile. I’m not liking the direction the devs have been going over the past few months with it.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Anet wants us to be mobile buffbots that sit in the back of the lines while everyone else does the action! I called it first!

All joking aside, I think it might be time to hang GW2 up for awhile. I’m not liking the direction the devs have been going over the past few months with it.

lol nah, I think this might be true. What else could it be? Obviously guardian isn’t meant to land damage on players consistently (no soft cc!) and they aren’t meant to be ranged damage dealers (staff and scepter suck for it!). The only thing that is repeatedly told to us is guardian is a big presence every where. So what is left? Supporting others, making them better just like what a traditional healer does. Just give buffs and heals to other classes so they can kill stuff.

So to a degree I think they are buff bots.

It’s okay. We’ve got tiny HP and good skills/utils/traits to make up for that low survivability. I’m sure they’ll replace it with something suitable..

or…
yeah…

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Anet wants us to be mobile buffbots that sit in the back of the lines while everyone else does the action! I called it first!

All joking aside, I think it might be time to hang GW2 up for awhile. I’m not liking the direction the devs have been going over the past few months with it.

If that is the case, then remove heavy armor and give us a dress. Heavy means frontlines not waiving a hanky in the back screaming our nail broke

The accessibility of the trait in its current iteration is the only “problem.” Unfortunately, this trait alone is essentially making damage-oriented builds viable. The lack of potent, reliable survivability tools in our damage trees requires most/all variations to go for that ‘splash’ into Honor. Currently the meta dictates that outright avoiding the damage>mitigating it. One of several things are likely, but I’d imagine it will end up with a reduced amount of vigor (2s, 6s ICD), or a flat 25% endurance bonus to homogenize the bonus %s across classes like they are giving other traits. Less likely are changes that would more drastically change guardian meta would involve shuffling minor traits throughout various trees around.

That said… if a change is made that drastically reduces our ability to dodge, we will almost definitely suffer greatly. A moderate (50% vigor, compared to near 100% with the current iteration) change in uptime would be uncomfortable, while a steeper trait investment would put it out of reach for some/many damage orient builds (further reducing our damage potential). This would simultaneously be pigeonholing us in to more rigid trait paths as it would feel required. Unfortunately, this trait is one of the only reliable sources of vigor a guardian can use and it would dramatically change how builds are conceived. I think a compromise, if you are really considering this sort of change, would be to give us a flat 50% endurance regen passive while in combat. This would normalize vigor uptime among various trait builds (90-100% currently), while lowering our reliance on vigor. This would be a ‘nerf,’ but if it has to happen…

Anyhow, I feel like our subforum largely goes unanswered. It is extremely hard to communicate in one direction, I’d love to see more responses from the devs (not even to myself, just in general) in regards to Guardian. You guys (anet) are clearly listening, but this “collaboration” effort gave me the impression we’d be able to have more active engagement. I’m not QQing, but we want to participate, not hurry-up-and-wait.

Honestly, I think perma-vigour in high-crit builds from a level 5 trait IS unreasonable. Surprised it was only ‘soft’ nerfed the first time it was looked at.

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Let’s take away one of the few things we excel at, and honestly we’re not the only ones anymore.

What? Are we seriously talking about nerfs here? It’s one of the few traits that makes it so we don’t have to insanely bunker down because it’s such an effective investment and offers perfect synergy with a number of options— I honestly scoff at guardians being pigeonholed but I think purity and vigorous precision are perfect and encourage more variety.

We already have the lowest health and poor mobility. So are we just supposed to sit there and “tank”? The trees are a mess and they want to do away with what actaully works?

This is why I hate nerfbat philosophy. It’s pretty much, “you’re having too much fun with this, so kitten you”. I assure you they’ll be looking at stabbing our other cheapi 5 point investment, which I’m not going to even mention lest it gets nerfed too.

And the purity discussion is plain silly, considering conditions already kill guardians fast…

Honestly, you know what? Just don’t change anything for a year or so. I think the best option is to just keep these changes to pvp, so they can just experiment with and screw up that mode only— there’s no need to attempt to create that frankensteinian attempt at “esports” and screw up the rest of the game in the process.

omfg first pov fixed and now this? gg roaming guardian :’(

OK, give it a 10 second cool down…IF you also give us top tier HP pool.

i can see where “perma-vigor” can be an issue. but don’t certain builds have to give up X for Y? you say high crit builds can pretty much achieve perma-vigor. then to get that high crit, and presumably, be more sustianable through the use of vigor.. they had to give up some form of survivability elsewhere – be it toughness, HP, traits, or other rune/sigil based effects. it gives the Guardian’s that want to go a slightly higher DPS route some added sustain. does perma-vigor make you godmode? not even close. but it is abel to give the DPS Guard an edge. perhaps in a cleric’s full healing power build with selfless daring, it can be pretty darn powerful. but again, that build would be sacrificing a lot of damage potential.

and on another note, one thing i’ve always been skeptical about is when changes are made, it’s always extremely drastic. there’s rarely a middle ground. so i’m afraid if this IS in fact touched, it could be changed in a way where one might not even ever notice there’s a 5pt minor trait in that line. though, as long as they’er willing to keep an eye on the changes they make and the impact they have on the game, i’ll always be holding my breath for the Devs.