Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Post-BWE3-Scrapper-Changes/first#post5607511

“Gyros now start their cooldown upon summon rather than upon gyro death.”

Guardians have been asking for this change for HOW LONG now? 2 years maybe? more

Thanks

This is why dear ladies and gents guardian is a sinking ship and i have personally lost ALL HOPE for this class

I think you’re being a tad overdramatic buddy.

Read his post history back to over a year. Its literally 100% complaining.

lol given what happened to mantras this will last like 2 weeks.

nearlight.3064:

I think you’re being a tad overdramatic buddy.

Maybe, but he’s still right. Guardians have been asking for that change on spirit weapons for a very, very long time.

Fashion Mage.3712:

nearlight.3064:

I think you’re being a tad overdramatic buddy.

Maybe, but he’s still right. Guardians have been asking for that change on spirit weapons for a very, very long time.

THIS^

It wouldn’t fix the stupid AI or the fact they can nuked so easily. But at least it would increase their up time.

This reminds me of the Rev sword auto change they made last week.

Some people mentioned guardians had been asking for the same change for 3 years, karl acted like he had no idea then said he had no plans to change it.

Well we need to riot and maybe they fix it in 3 years like shield

In all fairness to Karl, there has been a plethora of items asked by the Guardian community. Spirit Weapons were definitely lower priority than:

• Bow and its skillset changes
• Peels via F3 and its mechanic changes
• Burn guard/condi guard,
• Shield (omg shield! <3),
• Trap’s boons/stunbreaker/stability/dmg buffs
• DH self condi cleanse trait (although bugged)
• F3 self blocks for DH survivability
• An awesome F1 pull thingy to synergize trap playstyles – traps may actually be viable in high tier TPvP play.

- A complete redesign of Spirit Weapons isn’t exactly on the to do list, nor was it something people were talking about all through the DH skills collaborations, at least, compared to the other items we asked for. I wouldn’t dare trade any of these items for a Spirit Weapon AI fix.
- As for a run/walk speed increase, a Trap has Swiftness now. That’s about as close of a speed buff as we’re going to get lol.

WTB an active dev poster…

Saiyan.1704:

In all fairness to Karl, there has been a plethora of items asked by the Guardian community. Spirit Weapons were definitely lower priority than:

• Bow and its skillset changes
• Peels via F3 and its mechanic changes
• Burn guard/condi guard,
• Shield (omg shield! <3),
• Trap’s boons/stunbreaker/stability/dmg buffs
• DH self condi cleanse trait (although bugged)
• F3 self blocks for DH survivability
• An awesome F1 pull thingy to synergize trap playstyles – traps may actually be viable in high tier TPvP play.

tl;dr: Crappy DH changes clogged the pipeline so there were less changes (that people have been asking for for years) to the main guardian profession.
When I see it this way, I hate DH even more than I did before.

Well, whining or not, the issue is still there, isnt it? You can’t just say there is no merits for discussion at all just because the statement has negativity all over it.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Saiyan.1704:

In all fairness to Karl, there has been a plethora of items asked by the Guardian community. Spirit Weapons were definitely lower priority than:

• Bow and its skillset changes
• Peels via F3 and its mechanic changes
• Burn guard/condi guard,
• Shield (omg shield! <3),
• Trap’s boons/stunbreaker/stability/dmg buffs
• DH self condi cleanse trait (although bugged)
• F3 self blocks for DH survivability
• An awesome F1 pull thingy to synergize trap playstyles – traps may actually be viable in high tier TPvP play.

tl;dr: Crappy DH changes clogged the pipeline so there were less changes (that people have been asking for for years) to the main guardian profession.
When I see it this way, I hate DH even more than I did before.

Glad to know others can see through all the bullkitten

meh, guardian has been a sinking ship for awhile and I for one won’t be on it when it finally goes under, changing to rev main

Fashion Mage.3712:

Saiyan.1704:

In all fairness to Karl, there has been a plethora of items asked by the Guardian community. Spirit Weapons were definitely lower priority than:

• Bow and its skillset changes
• Peels via F3 and its mechanic changes
• Burn guard/condi guard,
• Shield (omg shield! <3),
• Trap’s boons/stunbreaker/stability/dmg buffs
• DH self condi cleanse trait (although bugged)
• F3 self blocks for DH survivability
• An awesome F1 pull thingy to synergize trap playstyles – traps may actually be viable in high tier TPvP play.

tl;dr: Crappy DH changes clogged the pipeline so there were less changes (that people have been asking for for years) to the main guardian profession.
When I see it this way, I hate DH even more than I did before.

That’s also not at all specific to guardian. Every class has been having their elite spec prioritized over the base class for the release of the expansion. The most recent balance patch in general made overly conservative buffs to unperforming weapons like the scepters for elect almost and necromancer that still aren’t viable.

The one to Rule.2593:

meh, guardian has been a sinking ship for awhile and I for one won’t be on it when it finally goes under, changing to rev main

Pretty much this. OP might be a bit dramatic about it, but the point is pretty clearly evident. Anet has effectively killed my interest in the Guardian, and this is really just another example to further the point.

Nah, just give it a CD reduction and call it a day.

While this sounds like a good idea for SW’s, I don’t recall people asking for this for years. Personally, I think the idea wouldn’t make SW’s any more appealing to use.

Obtena.7952:

While this sounds like a good idea for SW’s, I don’t recall people asking for this for years. Personally, I think the idea wouldn’t make SW’s any more appealing to use.

People have been asking for a change on the spirit weapons since 2013.

Farzo.8410:

Obtena.7952:

While this sounds like a good idea for SW’s, I don’t recall people asking for this for years. Personally, I think the idea wouldn’t make SW’s any more appealing to use.

People have been asking for a change on the spirit weapons since 2013.

People have been asking for a lot of changes since 2013.
What he means is, SW wasn’t exactly the most voiced. Definitely not this year.

Since we’re talking about it, I personally want to do away with brainless AI build that people can just summon and win. I want the mechanic changed, that immobile spirit weapons idea that another player suggested.

Saiyan.1704:

Farzo.8410:

Obtena.7952:

While this sounds like a good idea for SW’s, I don’t recall people asking for this for years. Personally, I think the idea wouldn’t make SW’s any more appealing to use.

People have been asking for a change on the spirit weapons since 2013.

People have been asking for a lot of changes since 2013.
What he means is, SW wasn’t exactly the most voiced.

I personally want to do away with brainless AI build that people can just summon and win. I want the mechanic changed, the immobile spirit weapons idea that another player suggested.

Static spirits???…. wait for next ravenant trait.
Altough i would not wanted them being static, if they die already fast with just AA…. or some minor contact with red simbols..

Saiyan.1704:

Obtena.7952:

While this sounds like a good idea for SW’s, I don’t recall people asking for this for years. Personally, I think the idea wouldn’t make SW’s any more appealing to use.

Since we’re talking about it, I personally want to do away with brainless AI build that people can just summon and win. I want the mechanic changed, that immobile spirit weapons idea that another player suggested.

The single biggest roadblock in running a successful SW build is their uptime. There are two main ways to affect their overall uptime without touching their survivability (because I think it’s fine alone. I’ll explain later).

The first is to lower their cooldown. For example, if Sword is supposed to have a certain amount of downtime, then 30-45 seconds of uptime with 15 seconds of cooldown would provide a 45-60 second cycle. This helps when your sw are killed because the short timer starts at despawn, meaning you’re only a few seconds away from getting it back. However, this isn’t my favorite way.

The second is to start the timer on cast, allowing it to recharge while it’s alive just like Gyros will become. This can maintain the same uptime as adjusting the cooldown might, but it also gives more incentive to keep your minions alive. It gives better counter play to someone who wants to kill the weapon because they can deprive you for much longer if they take the time and risk to attack your utilities.

As far as AI utilities go, I think there’s a playstyle they bring that needs to be represented by every class. The concept of a minion master is a very particular way of playing and is something every class can benefit from having access to. Spirit Weapons have strong synergy with our ally support, particularly with symbols and AH. Having that Caretaker MM role is something that could open up new possibilities with both damage and bunker specs. Minion mastering takes a different mind and skill set them others, just like trapping, mediations, and block-burn are all different. I expect we’ll see some improvements relatively soon.

A build like this would be incredibly interesting to run, with the necessary changes of course.

I think asking for this kind of change would backfire because of what appears to be the intent of the current design. If SW CD timer started on summoning, I can see them extending the cooldown PAST the lifetime of the skill to guarantee no overlap. I don’t believe Anet wants use to have access to a specific SW at all times.

Obtena.7952:

I think asking for this kind of change would backfire because of what appears to be the intent of the current design. If SW CD timer started on summoning, I can see them extending the cooldown PAST the lifetime of the skill to guarantee no overlap. I don’t believe Anet wants use to have access to a specific SW at all times.

how is that possible if SW atm are 2x the CD of gyros? even SW traited have longer CD’s, also we have longer cast time, where gyros are instant or 3/4 of a second.

How is it not possible! SW’s aren’t balanced according to how Gyros work. Do people actually think after 3 years that references to OTHER class tools is a sensible way to request and justify fixes for different classes? That’s not really a sensible way to think because of the intentional differences between classes.

Listen, SW’s are pretty lame right now but if CD started on summon … would that make them more appealing to us? Think about what happens when a SW dies in a fight … would it matter if you could summon another right away? What are the chances it sticks around to be useful? Probably not good … Did ‘CD timer start on summon’ really give you anything to get excited about there? I don’t think it did.

What I’m saying is that the appeal that CD timer start on summon gives you is something that doesn’t make sense … they can be chained as long as they don’t die and that’s why I think ANet wouldn’t stop to change other things to ‘balance’ SW’s if there were changed to CD timer on summon. Think about WHY Anet gave them finite life in the first place …

The difference is that with the current functionality, even skillful play ends up falling short because there is downtime on your entire build. You could be the best player in the room, and still be completely vulnerable when your spirit weapons are down even though you were skilled enough to prevent them from dying while they were up.

You’re talking two entirely different situations. If you re-summoned a spirit weapon immediately after it died only to allow it to die again, then that would be on you anyway.

Obtena.7952:

How is it not possible! SW’s aren’t balanced according to how Gyros work. Do people actually think after 3 years that references to OTHER class tools is a sensible way to request and justify fixes for different classes?

Listen, SW’s are pretty lame right now but if CD started on summon … would that make them more appealing to us? Think about what happens when a SW dies in a fight … would it matter if you could summon another right away? What are the chances it sticks around to be useful? Probably not good … Did ‘CD timer start on summon’ really give you anything to get excited about there? I don’t think it did.

What I’m saying is that the appeal that CD timer start on summon gives you is something that doesn’t make sense … they can be chained as long as they don’t die. Think about WHY Anet gave them finite life in the first place …

I can understand why Anet “nerfed” them, the problem is that they did not balance the skill for that change and that ended in SW being a huge drawback for its carrier, and no the CD alone would not be appealing nor would help much, but i don’t see Anet fixing SW, we players have been asking and brainstorming around SW since its change, and no answers.
So i cant see Anet giving proper work for that utilities…

SW atm have almost zero survivability, BoJ on command to heal targets in a zone if theres a combat BoJ will probably get destroyed, since BoJ enters on melee range when on command (and it is a bow that removes 1 condi each 3 sec( removes first condi 3 seconds after being casted, probably will get destroyed before that) with low a.i that gets in the midle of the damage zone to), SoA will not trigger if players are shooting from above the X axis (players on walls and on higher positions), also SoA tends to run randomless in the field.
The offensive SW’s, they just dont work, they easilly get overruned by kitting and players with % speed boost as passive traits and runes, they also die with 2-3 AA hits since every one player high damage builds.

Their actual gameplay is nonexistent, so would make sense (on a poor solution) that they could be casted again when destroyed, on a good solution would be a way to manage the SW location, and change the offensive SW to something else or get them always near the guardian as i suggested in the past. It makes perfect sense to adopt the gyro mechanics into SW.

Aeolus.3615:

It makes perfect sense to adopt the gyro mechanics into SW.

Not debating if it makes sense or not … debating if it’s a GOOD change that would make SW’s more playable than they are now. I don’t think it would. The only advantage you get for changing Timer on summon is that you could chain the same SW IF IT DOESN’T DIE … what SW have you used lately that doesn’t die quickly?

Edit: just checked out the Engi BWE3 thread on this change … and INDEED the CD’s on some Gyros have been increased because of the CD timer on summon change for the exact reason I stated earlier; Anet does not want 100% possible uptimes on gyros. Therefore, I think it’s a high probability they wouldn’t want them on SW’s either.

Obtena.7952:

Aeolus.3615:

It makes perfect sense to adopt the gyro mechanics into SW.

Not debating if it makes sense or not … debating if it’s a GOOD change that would make SW’s more playable than they are now. I don’t think it would. The only advantage you get for changing Timer on summon is that you could chain the same SW IF IT DOESN’T DIE … what SW have you used lately that doesn’t die quickly?

Well i do understand what ur saying, but i dont see Anet doing QoL or balance on SW, so i would accept anything as i did the shield CD hype (with a bit of irony), something almost useless it is better than nothing.

And no SW lived that longer to tell a story where it saved anyone , i think we are talking about the same here, the truth is that their functionality would not gain much for this change, if it works that way with chainning SW utilities if doesn’t get killed.
They need more deeper changes/fixes to work, but if the SW could stay near the caster this would increase their change of surviving (wich will not really happen on a fight even with scrapper, Anet still test their stuff on static mobs aparently…) since classes need to go on melee and game is all about aoe, even AA has 3targets aoe so will eventually kill the SW if they stayed together near the guardian in a just a few hits.

(edit)if i recall CD’s went from 30 CD to 35 something like that, and elite gyro has a 1second interval difference, with stealth value gained and skill CD.
Altough if it really makes gyros (wich i doubt by alot, unless players watch from affar and dont engage in a fight) survive longer so it would made SW survive longer, players would just need to adapt to it, altough SW have different gameplay.

I think the part of the problem with ‘misdirected changes’ on things, like shield, etc… is that sometimes, devs get the wrong message from people and this is a good example. We all must know exactly how we would feel if THIS was the fix that Anet implemented for SW’s. We would hate it. It’s worthless.

Obtena.7952:

We all must know exactly how we would feel if THIS was the fix that Anet implemented for SW’s. We would hate it. It’s worthless.

I think anybody who has the slightest clue about spirit weapons would realize what an enormous buff this would be for them.

They should just make Spirit weapons a ‘toggle on’ skill, make them invulnerable and then balance the damage to suit, no harder than balancing the damage of any other utility skill.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

They should just make Spirit weapons a ‘toggle on’ skill, make them invulnerable and then balance the damage to suit, no harder than balancing the damage of any other utility skill.

Problem with that is they’d lose the command-skills. The button couldn’t be used to command them because it’s also the toggle off button .

Obtena.7952:

How is it not possible! SW’s aren’t balanced according to how Gyros work. Do people actually think after 3 years that references to OTHER class tools is a sensible way to request and justify fixes for different classes? That’s not really a sensible way to think because of the intentional differences between classes.

Sorry to pull just one specific paragraph but I do have a point of contention here that you say Spirit Weapons are balanced with downtime in mind. Which may have been true at launch but we can see they have fallen Way below the power curve they were intended for, so much so that even boosting them to 100% uptime is not too much of a buff. We are campaigning for less of a change, one that will reward us for, for example, using aegis skills smartly when spirit weapons are up etc.

And you agree this buff would not be too strong since your other argument is that this buff is not useful at all, and would still be a disappointment. Well the answer to that is still give it to us if it is not too strong and not too much work since the mechanics have been developed already. At minimum this would be 4-5 seconds off the cool down but most importantly it just feels rewarding to use aegis and other tools effectively.

The point you make about it not being enough of a buff is not important because we do not want Overpowered utilities we want ones which fall reasonably close to the power curve and that reward you for good play. Eg. No aoe bosses that last less than 30 seconds you are better off using SW sword than Bane signet (good luck finding such a boss)

Finally I want to point out that the only possible mechanical problem is with spirit weapon overlap, if we take cool down reduction then SW sword is up for 30 seconds with 20 second cool down whereas none of the drones have that possibility even with alacrity counted in. However this is also fine because the re summon button is hidden behind the command button, just need to be sure it doesn’t flip or have weird double casting interactions, I am sure it is easy to code.

Obtena.7952:

If SW CD timer started on summoning, I can see them extending the cooldown PAST the lifetime of the skill to guarantee no overlap. I don’t believe Anet wants use to have access to a specific SW at all times.

Sword would have kitten uptime on a 30s cooldown. However, if you kill it immediately, it’s still gone for ~25ss. You cannot summon two swords at once because you still have the command skill replacing the summon. All other Spirit Weapons would have 50% uptime, which is far better than swords 60% uptime and bow/shield’s 33% uptime. Traited it would be 100%+, 55%, 62.5% and 62.5% as opposed to 65%, 35.7%, 38.4%, and 38.4%. Currently traited spirit weapons only gain 5% uptime. I can’t imagine any minion skill being fine with that amount. This isn’t trying to compare class to class, but comparing what makes a minion skill a minion skill. If Spirit Weapons are truly meant to have cooldowns start on death, then they’d need to be changed to 5-20 second cooldowns. A skill that lasts 30 seconds and recharges for 60 seconds takes 90 seconds to go through its cycle. You’re limited to 33% usefulness regardless of your personal investment into their survival.

Obtena.7952:

Did ‘CD timer start on summon’ really give you anything to get excited about there? I don’t think it did.

It would get me excited. It’s a change that would make minion skills act miss like minion skills. The counterplay to minions is killing them. However, guardians have many methods of support, and it would make those skills immediately more useful because of that synergy. Personal sustain can be made from them. Support and healing can be given to them. They don’t last forever, andand excluding sword, will despawn before their recharge is finished. However, one of the biggest weaknesses of current is their uptime, it’s abysmal. I don’t want, nor believe it would be healthy for SW to have past revisions made like invincibility. Therefore, those minion skills should start acting more like minion skills, just like traps act like traps among all professions.

Sword uptime is a pretty simple fix if it would indeed be an issue. 30s uptime, kitten cooldown. Sword is obviously the skill meant to be the most available, and therefore had the least utility. However, having just one Spirit Weapon active is a big deal for a build based around their uptime. Battle Presence, Empowering Might, Altruistic Healing all become much more useful when you have your own allies to share it with. It would play similar to Cleric MM Necro, but with uniquely Guardian twists.

After Herald got the shield buffs we’ve been asking for, guard subsequently got some shield buffs, so perhaps after these scrapper buffs, spirit weapons will also receive the same treatment.

Obtena.7952:

I think the part of the problem with ‘misdirected changes’ on things, like shield, etc… is that sometimes, devs get the wrong message from people and this is a good example. We all must know exactly how we would feel if THIS was the fix that Anet implemented for SW’s. We would hate it. It’s worthless.

Misdirected or not anyone that has played the class would be able to easily tell where the problems are. An immobile shield is completely uncalled for in game that emphasizes movement in combat. Except sanctuary, no shielding skill should be immobile, this is something that should have been obvious within the first month of GW2, i have maybe 10 hours with guard and this was obvious to me. Makes me wonder if they actually play the classes or they just do everything according to the most popular suggestions.

Spirit weapons should work with the player not drag the player down. By their nature they shouldnt be limited by physical elements like distance so they shouldnt have to travel in slow motion to keep up with you before you can use them. They should be able to teleport properly or appear out of thin air at a target on command similar to Revenant’s “Drop the hammer”. They are spirit weapons not Engineer turrets.

My point is Devs shouldnt be getting the wrong message, if they play the classes they should have the message before we even realize there is a message to give since they are the first ones to see it and use it.

Obtena.7952:

I think the part of the problem with ‘misdirected changes’ on things, like shield, etc…

Heyheyhey, I absolutely love the Shield changes! If it’s too OP, simply increase the CD or reduce the bubble uptime. The utility usages with the Shield will still be there <3

Saiyan.1704:

Obtena.7952:

I think the part of the problem with ‘misdirected changes’ on things, like shield, etc…

Heyheyhey, I absolutely love the Shield changes! If it’s too OP, simply increase the CD or reduce the bubble uptime. The utility usages with the Shield will still be there <3

Shield changes both skill and CD were necessary because shield was falling back way to much

The shield changes are amazing, and they’re the first changes the devs have done in quite awhile that I actually liked. The addition of aegis to Shield of Judgment was also probably an indicator of the devs paying attention to player feedback and suggestions, so I can definitely applaud them on that. These changes were hardly “misdirected”, quite the opposite really.

To repost from Scrapper:

Due to a design discussion that arose yesterday the recharge on gyros are going back to starting on the death of the gyro.

To help with the recharge going back to the gyro death the recharge themselves are being dramatically reduced. Below is a before and after to help clarify what is happening.

On Cast Medic Gyro CD: 35s
On Cast Medic Gyro Duration: 14s
CD at full duration: 21s
New Medic Gyro CD on Death: 20s

On Cast Purge/Bulwark CD: 35s
On Cast Duration: 15s
CD at full duration: 20s
New Gyro CD on Death: 20s

On Cast Sneak Gyro CD: 45 seconds
On Cast Duration: 30s
CD at full duration: 15s
New Sneak Gyro CD: 20s

---

This amounts to an overall buff to gyro recharge as the net recharge time is reduced on all gyros except sneak gyro, which is effectively a buff if the sneak gyro would have been destroyed anytime before the final five seconds of its duration.

Blast Gyro’s toolbelt skill, Bypass Coating, is going to be a stunbreak.

Looks like instead of CD starting on summon their going for reduced CD on death/desummon. Overall I believe it achieves the same goal & function as on summon CD’s & maybe even better in some circumstances. Even with on summon CDs you would be looking at longer CDs overall to have over lap guaranteeing downtime so why not just have the over lap as the CD. Overall the objective is to have higher summon time of SWs.

I would still like to pursue adjusting the aspect of SWs to be bounded minions that travel with the guardian. Providing a mobile symbol feeling to the gameplay. This would allow for better positional control & Sword & Shields command abilities of SWs. It would also provide a more unique gameplay compared to Necromancers minions other them the timed aspect.

Bezagron.7352:

Been thinking further about spirit weapons & the Spirit Weapon Judgment image in the OP.

This was one of my favourite images of guardian at release & was why I unlocked each spirit weapon as soon as available. But although visibly very amazing summons with each “Balance Change” they became worse & worse.

But spirit weapons functional (cast time, cooldown, movement, targeting) need massive changes. For any interested I’ve previously posted Spirit Weapons – A Crazy Idea a redesign of SWs. The only thing I want to take from this redesign relates back to the Judgment image with how the spirit weapons seem to be chained to the guardian.

So Melee Functionality design using my redesign of SW’s, DH traps & old mobile Ranger Spirits:

• Cast Time – Reduced 0.5 sec (for the same casting experience BWE3 DH traps provided).
• Recharge – Now changed to massively reduced CD on death matching Scapper’s Gyro funtion. Commences once summoned. This could provide 99% summoned time for some SWs [minus recasting, eg. Sword, Bow] but also guaranteed downtime for the stronger SWs [eg. Hammer, Shield]. (again like how DH traps functioned in BWE3 allowing for pre-combat use without such a harsh punishment for being caught out near the end duration of a summon/s or ).[/i]
  Now changed to massively reduced CD on death matching Scapper’s Gyro funtion
• Movement – No longer move about as their now chained to the guardian & travel where & how the guardian travels. So they teleport when the guardian teleports, leaps when they leap, travel at super speed when they travels at super speed. You could say movement wise they become like the old mobile spirits of Rangers (you no longer have to worry about that random SW wandering off).
• Attacking/Targeting – Only attacking foes nearby the guardian (unlike Ranger spirits they don’t directly buff the guardians auto attack but function similar to a mobile symbol).
• Command abilities – Still function the same way they currently do. This could mean Sword & Shield are more reliable positionally.
• Health – Still have health & can be killed. With increased timed summoned because of reduced cast time & recharge starting on summon this becomes a more important element of spirit weapon counter play.

I feel with this would provide a smoother experiences without SWs running all over the place & allow for easier focusing of SW’s damage applications & better control over SW’s support abilities.

What we loss is the ability for SWs to harass foes at range making this a larger negative change for ranged gameplay in this regard but could provide a positive as a large deterrent for closing into melee range helping keep foes at range while also guaranteeing benefit from SW support as their always near you.

Having SWs chained to the guardian is both a benefit & a weakness with regards to AoEs:

Weakness

• AoEs / Cleaves – First any AoE /Cleave hitting the guardian will also most likely be damaging the SWs as well.

Advantages

• Chained to Guardian – As they travel now with the guardian leaving the AoE should also remove SWs from said AoE. Now leaving in the hand of the player to remove them from AoEs not relying on an AI script.
• AoE / Cleaves Max Targets – In team / group fights SWs are going to counter towards AoE /Cleave target limits spreading the overall AoE damage over the affected targets plus SWs (Which with cast time & CD changes shouldn’t be as punishing if their killed).

This redesign is only looking at the function / gameplay & mechanics of SWs as a minion not their skill effects or benefits. As it’s not the skill effects or benefits I have problems with but how SWs function. Currently their gameplay mechanics are very awkward & clunky. They so bad that it’s too hard to tell if their skills effects & benefits need improving or not because of this.

Bezagron.7352:

To repost from Scrapper:

Due to a design discussion that arose yesterday the recharge on gyros are going back to starting on the death of the gyro.

To help with the recharge going back to the gyro death the recharge themselves are being dramatically reduced. Below is a before and after to help clarify what is happening.

On Cast Medic Gyro CD: 35s
On Cast Medic Gyro Duration: 14s
CD at full duration: 21s
New Medic Gyro CD on Death: 20s

On Cast Purge/Bulwark CD: 35s
On Cast Duration: 15s
CD at full duration: 20s
New Gyro CD on Death: 20s

On Cast Sneak Gyro CD: 45 seconds
On Cast Duration: 30s
CD at full duration: 15s
New Sneak Gyro CD: 20s

---

This amounts to an overall buff to gyro recharge as the net recharge time is reduced on all gyros except sneak gyro, which is effectively a buff if the sneak gyro would have been destroyed anytime before the final five seconds of its duration.

Blast Gyro’s toolbelt skill, Bypass Coating, is going to be a stunbreak.

Looks like instead of CD starting on summon their going for reduced CD on death/desummon. Overall I believe it achieves the same goal & function as on summon CD’s & maybe even better in some circumstances. Even with on summon CDs you would be looking at longer CDs overall to have over lap guaranteeing downtime so why not just have the over lap as the CD. Overall the objective is to have higher summon time of SWs.

I would still like to pursue adjusting the aspect of SWs to be bounded minions that travel with the guardian. Providing a mobile symbol feeling to the gameplay. This would allow for better positional control & Sword & Shields command abilities of SWs. It would also provide a more unique gameplay compared to Necromancers minions other them the timed aspect.

Firstly about your suggestion I do like it but I think it would fit better in a “How to fix SW” thread, this one is more, “Should SW cooldown start at summon since we now know the mechanics are possible” thread.

Now as you linked, our initial point of discussion has been reversed but it is still a valid topic. Through this time Gyros have received effectively twice the buffs while SW are still mathematically proven to be way worse. They bring up the point that by having the cooldown start from summon they need to balance with the thought of the gyro surviving the full duration, while even if a SW survives full duration it is a DPS loss over Bane Signet.

As to why this is still something we would want:
Gyros are front loaded with utility, they are summoned and instantly start whirls, blasts and heals. And gyros have an explode button and a reward for exploding at the correct time: Superspeed on Gyro destruction trait.
So choosing when they die is a skillcap for a scrapper.
Spirit Weapons are not front loaded. All of them do constant dps or hps over its time. And our ways of destroying them for a bigger reward(command skills) were removed.
So keeping the SW alive is a skillcap for a guardian.

For a bit of flavour: Guardian is a class built on working to keep things alive where as Scrappers just want to use their robots for evil like bombs.
So Guardians should get Cooldown on start to reward being able to keep them alive while Scrappers should get cooldown on death to reward using them efficiently then blowing them up.

Hope you agree and we can together convince the devs.

I’m an engie main and I don’t understand why this change was originally made. No one said anything about Gyro cooldowns that I know of and so far, the Gyro CDs have been great.

Dirame.8521:

I’m an engie main and I don’t understand why this change was originally made. No one said anything about Gyro cooldowns that I know of and so far, the Gyro CDs have been great.

Probably because Irenio was concerned that gyros were underwhelming, heard that gyros were like SW, did actual research by coming to this sub forum and made informed changes and testing based on 3 years of feedback from guardians.

I also outline above why that was the wrong change for gyros while the right change for Spirit Weapons: Basically Gyros like to die while SW like to stay alive.

Hunter.4783:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Post-BWE3-Scrapper-Changes/first#post5607511

“Gyros now start their cooldown upon summon rather than upon gyro death.”

Guardians have been asking for this change for HOW LONG now? 2 years maybe? more

Thanks

This is why dear ladies and gents guardian is a sinking ship and i have personally lost ALL HOPE for this class

I don’t get why guardians are all up in arms about this. Ranger spirits used to have this functionality, but it was changed over 2 years ago.

wow I never thought of this, but I would actually had fun playing with spirit weapons if they also started their cd when summoned

With gyros they ended up going back and chopping the cooldowns to a uniform 20 second.

I’d take that treatment on Spirit Weapons. Its a start.

The way you guys are acting, we might as well all give up our mains and make Revenants this Friday.

Revenant Wars 2.

While I FULLY expect a class headed up by the developer that brought us hambow and sheltered his pet class against a righteous beat down with the nerf bat for 2+ years to be almost ludicrously over the top on launch day, I’m just not that interested in a class that says “do it like the dev insists you do it” with almost no flexibility. This is the class that when revealed the designer was so certain he knew how we should play it didn’t even have weapon swap. Revant is still the most inflexible profession in the game.

You want a part of that, go for it. I’m gonna continue to main Guard/DH and enjoy 6 out of 7 of the other existing professions. I’ll make a Rev, but its strictly on probation for now.

Smokin Dice.9103:

wow I never thought of this, but I would actually had fun playing with spirit weapons if they also started their cd when summoned

It’d be great if they just kept up with you.
Like if the other end of the chain on the handle was connected to my belt, and it acted as another arm.. Most of the time it’s struggling behind like it’s had too much taco bell.

Arutha.9874:

For a bit of flavour: Guardian is a class built on working to keep things alive where as Scrappers just want to use their robots for evil like bombs.
So Guardians should get Cooldown on start to reward being able to keep them alive while Scrappers should get cooldown on death to reward using them efficiently then blowing them up.

Thanks for the response & I just love your view point on the differences of SW & Gyros. Even know both at timed mobile summons their reason for existing are totally different giving then unique favours & allowing for both while differentiating.

My main idea regarding bring up movement & SWs function like mobile symbols was I was treating this thread as more discussion around the functionality of SWs then just CD as CDs are a core part of functionality.

Going with your idea of keeping SW alive binding their movement to the guardian’s will most likely improve player control over their survivability. We want & need them up & alive because this is the only time they provide a benefit. We have no control on when the CD starts & they provide no benefit if they die.

It’s not only CD that are a massive issue but Cast Times, again for much the same issues & problems Traps had but at least Traps had more up front benefit them SWs.

Arutha.9874:

Hope you agree and we can together convince the devs.

I look forward to working together to try convincing the devs. I believe other then CD & Cast Times we all need to decide on what type of functionality we want from SWs. For me now I’m looking for more of a mobile symbol play style leaning more to a melee range game play while keeping some commands skills greater range combat options.

If were looking at making this a viable utility set I would also like the Arenanet to look at adding a heal & elite skill to complete the play style.