Guild Wars 2

Invul Skills Hard Counters Traps = bad

In addition to this thread below that addresses the concern of traps not giving stun breakers, sustain or any kind of condi removal

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Traps-are-still-going-to-be-underwhelming

I like to address another concern with Traps and that’s skills that give players invulnerability or any kind of damage mitigation like warrior stances, and the new resistance boon, completely negating the trap

Putting a Trap on your utility bar means you’re giving up a big utility slot and replacing, meditations, shouts, or a consecration skill depending on your Build.

The concern is I feel trap will be useless against classes that know how to mitigate damage through their skills:

Let’s assume all traps were unblockable, even if its only just one that is lol….

1) New Resistance Boon: This new boon will be available in HOT giving immunity to condis, so far we know the Revenant will have access to this boon. Any trap build that is condi based and uses Piercing Light trait to stack lots of bleeds with the traps would be devastated from this boon. Someone with resistance can literally walk up to the traps and yea…..
2) Warrior Stances: depending on the Guard build, last stand or Berserker Stance
3) Ele: Mist Form
4) Mesmers: Distortion
5) Rangers: Immunity Signet
6) Guardians: Renewed Focus
7) Stacking on –condi duration for movement, Immune to cripple.
8) Necro: Flesh worm or Spectral Recall Just walk on traps to activate and quickly recall back to bait activations.
9) Teleports – I wouldn’t be surprised if you can completely negate the elite trap by Teleporting away either with Mesmer/Ele Blinks
10) Walking Away – Someone sees you with traps, just walk away, it’s not like you’re going to catch them, you are a Guardian.
11) Ele for the third time: Obsidian Flesh
12) Ele for the 4th time lol….. Diamond Skin

There are so many ways to mitigate damage and conditions that traps are very underwhelming not just for not having sustain, stun breakers or condi removal, but being completely negated.

Yes, you can argue the points I mentioned above can be applied to a lot of builds, however. Traps have very long cool downs and can be completely hard countered. Someone can mitigate burst from your meds, but meds still heal you and grant you fury. Someone can boon strip your shouts, however shouts give support to all allies and sustain from Altruistic healing…

Why would I buy HOT for the elite specialization and give up a utility skill for something being hard countered from good players?

Traps can be completely negated and become useless. The traps have long cool downs too, so it would take a long time to re apply….Going traps literally turns you into a “one trick pony,” which can be countered so easily, not really worth it…

Looking at the other 2 elite specs, they have counters however they cant be super hard countered like the way traps can….

Block Hard Counter Burst = bad.
Blind Hard-Counter slower burst = bad.
Reveal Hard-counter stealth = bad.
WoR Hard-Counter Projectiles = bad.
LB3 Hard-Counter Rapid Fire = bad.

Logic?

Toxsa.2701:

Block Hard Counter Burst = bad.
Blind Hard-Counter slower burst = bad.
Reveal Hard-counter stealth = bad.
WoR Hard-Counter Projectiles = bad.
LB3 Hard-Counter Rapid Fire = bad.

Logic?

“Yes, you can argue the points I mentioned above can be applied to a lot of builds, however. Traps have very long cool downs and can be completely hard countered. Someone can mitigate burst from your meds, but meds still heal you and grant you fury. Someone can boon strip your shouts, however shouts give support to all allies and sustain from Altruistic healing…”

Learn 2 Read

I’m going to reserve judgement until I can actually PLAY with traps. I advise others to do the same.

Friendly reminder:

Resistance doesn’t make you immune to conditions. It makes you immune to the effects while its active. Once Resistance drops, you’ll be taking all of that burning and bleeding (among anything else) you’ve just sat in.

Sigh , ok well one thing you didnt consider is that Invun already counters Condi Ranger traps but thank god the Invun is short lived and they are condi traps so its quite easy to restack condis after the invun is finished.

just the same with the guardian traps choose when to use them don’t just drop them and forget.

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of traps, even I have to admit that this is quite a stretch. Invulnerability skills are a hard counter to pretty much any high damage/high cooldown skill.

If it were up to me, the only invulnerability skills in the game would have to be channeled like Renewed Focus. There’s nothing more obnoxious than someone being immune to everything while they unload their entire burst on you.

Black Box.9312:

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of traps, even I have to admit that this is quite a stretch. Invulnerability skills are a hard counter to pretty much any high damage/high cooldown skill.

If it were up to me, the only invulnerability skills in the game would have to be channeled like Renewed Focus. There’s nothing more obnoxious than someone being immune to everything while they unload their entire burst on you.

There’re only 2 classes that can do that, both with pretty long CD.
One is Ele’s earth focus 5, which is the selling point of the weapon, which kind of define it’s existence.
Another is mesmer’s distortion, but since mesmer has pretty low armor and pretty low sustain, it is justified to have it.

Other invulnerability, like mist form, elixir S all lock you down in empty bar, same as renew focus which they’re channeling.

yeah, invulnerability hard counters… everything?

The real problem here is invulnerability. If it were up to me, it would have never made it into the game to begin with.

Didn’t they learn their lesson with Guild Wars 1? Weren’t all those perma-obsidian flesh elementalists, and perma-Shadow Form assassins soloing whole parts of the Underworld a very harsh lesson already? That hard counters such as complete invulnerability ruin the balance of the game?

Heck, even in Slavers Exile this happened. One Shadow Form assassin skips all the content, pulls all the monsters close to the wall at the entrance. Then everyone nukes from the other side, the wall disappears, and everyone quickly grabs the chest. There by skipping all the content.

Invulnerability skills ruin any balanced combat system. If you create your combat around dodges, then it should just be dodges only, and nothing else. As soon as you add other skills that accomplish the same thing, and then unequally distribute those across the classes, you ruin that fragile balance.

Either everyone gets invulnerability, or no one does.

yeah dh seems suck to me

I guess thief traps have just been ignored to such a great extent that we need to have this discussion. But oh well.

The skills also aren’t final. They might put a stun break on one of the traps, especially since guardians can’t get synergy off of stealth via trapper runes like thieves can. There might even be some new runes or sigils that trigger things in conjunction with traps, providing other options to the trapper runes.

I don’t think there’s a need for an anti-hype train. If so, you’ve got a large backlog to work through on things mist form counters.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The real problem here is invulnerability. If it were up to me, it would have never made it into the game to begin with.

Didn’t they learn their lesson with Guild Wars 1? Weren’t all those perma-obsidian flesh elementalists, and perma-Shadow Form assassins soloing whole parts of the Underworld a very harsh lesson already? That hard counters such as complete invulnerability ruin the balance of the game?

Heck, even in Slavers Exile this happened. One Shadow Form assassin skips all the content, pulls all the monsters close to the wall at the entrance. Then everyone nukes from the other side, the wall disappears, and everyone quickly grabs the chest. There by skipping all the content.

Invulnerability skills ruin any balanced combat system. If you create your combat around dodges, then it should just be dodges only, and nothing else. As soon as you add other skills that accomplish the same thing, and then unequally distribute those across the classes, you ruin that fragile balance.

Either everyone gets invulnerability, or no one does.

^ So. Much. This.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The real problem here is invulnerability. If it were up to me, it would have never made it into the game to begin with.

Didn’t they learn their lesson with Guild Wars 1? Weren’t all those perma-obsidian flesh elementalists, and perma-Shadow Form assassins soloing whole parts of the Underworld a very harsh lesson already? That hard counters such as complete invulnerability ruin the balance of the game?

Heck, even in Slavers Exile this happened. One Shadow Form assassin skips all the content, pulls all the monsters close to the wall at the entrance. Then everyone nukes from the other side, the wall disappears, and everyone quickly grabs the chest. There by skipping all the content.

Invulnerability skills ruin any balanced combat system. If you create your combat around dodges, then it should just be dodges only, and nothing else. As soon as you add other skills that accomplish the same thing, and then unequally distribute those across the classes, you ruin that fragile balance.

Either everyone gets invulnerability, or no one does.

^ So. Much. This.

I… don’t really think you can put 3 seconds of mist form on par with perma shadow form assassins…

Well, I guess you can, I’m just not sure it’s the best comparison. It would be if there were perma mist form eles that could attack stuff, but there isn’t.

But if you’re worried about abilities being unequally distributed between all the professions, there’s an easy solution to it. Just get rid of the other professions. Hell, get rid of equipment varieties, skills, and builds in general. Everyone can just have one single attack ability, and if you lose a fight it’s your own fault. No imbalance concerns to be had.

Yamsandjams.3267:

But if you’re worried about abilities being unequally distributed between all the professions, there’s an easy solution to it. Just get rid of the other professions. Hell, get rid of equipment varieties, skills, and builds in general. Everyone can just have one single attack ability, and if you lose a fight it’s your own fault. No imbalance concerns to be had.

I understand that differences and unbalances between different classes are unavoidable in any role playing game. If all the classes were exactly the same, it would be a very boring game.

However…

If you base your game design on the concept that everyone gets 2 dodges, then you shouldn’t give some classes 1 or 2 extra dodges. And you shouldn’t include a skill that basically makes a class completely invulnerable to everything, and then hand that skill to only a few of the classes. Even if it is only for a few seconds, this ruins the balance.

There are two problems with invulnerability:

-Unequal distribution across the classes.
-It has no counter. It just negates any and all skills.

Now compare this with blocking. Some attacks are unblockable, so the blocking mechanic doesn’t negate the importance of dodge rolling. Players can deal with an opponent who is blocking, because they can rely on an attack that bypasses his blocking. Traps bypass blocking, for example. Nothing bypasses invulnerability. Not even control skills, or traps.

All fighting games understand that a rock-paper-scissors philosophy needs to be applied to every mechanic. Every ability, can be overcome by another ability. Invulnerability does not follow this concept.

Toxsa.2701:

Black Box.9312:

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of traps, even I have to admit that this is quite a stretch. Invulnerability skills are a hard counter to pretty much any high damage/high cooldown skill.

If it were up to me, the only invulnerability skills in the game would have to be channeled like Renewed Focus. There’s nothing more obnoxious than someone being immune to everything while they unload their entire burst on you.

There’re only 2 classes that can do that, both with pretty long CD.
One is Ele’s earth focus 5, which is the selling point of the weapon, which kind of define it’s existence.
Another is mesmer’s distortion, but since mesmer has pretty low armor and pretty low sustain, it is justified to have it.

Other invulnerability, like mist form, elixir S all lock you down in empty bar, same as renew focus which they’re channeling.

There are SO many other things that ele focus is good for. Swirling Winds, Gale, Magnetic Wave, and even Comet can all be used to turn a fight in your favor. Saying that Obsidian Flesh is the defining skill of the weapon gives me the impression that you haven’t used it enough to really know any better. They could very easily change it to only partially mitigate damage, or require a channel, or at the very least render you unable to use skills while it’s up and focus would still be a very strong defensive weapon.

Distortion, on the other hand, is a different story. Blurred Frenzy I’d say is fine because it requires you to stand in place and channel the sword flurry, but the Distortion shatter I’d say should be the same, where it prevents you from using other skills when it’s up. It’s meant to be a defensive mechanic, and it’s completely unfair to be able to burst someone down while they can do nothing but sit there watching their attacks do 0 damage.

I’d personally argue this for every “pseudo-invulnerability” skill as well, such as Endure Pain and Signet of Stone. Hopefully the introduction of Resistance as a boon will make Berserker’s Stance a bit more fair, but any sort of 100% damage mitigation that allows the use of other skills and can’t be stripped while it’s up just kittens up balancing pretty badly.

Black Box.9312:

Toxsa.2701:

Black Box.9312:

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of traps, even I have to admit that this is quite a stretch. Invulnerability skills are a hard counter to pretty much any high damage/high cooldown skill.

If it were up to me, the only invulnerability skills in the game would have to be channeled like Renewed Focus. There’s nothing more obnoxious than someone being immune to everything while they unload their entire burst on you.

There’re only 2 classes that can do that, both with pretty long CD.
One is Ele’s earth focus 5, which is the selling point of the weapon, which kind of define it’s existence.
Another is mesmer’s distortion, but since mesmer has pretty low armor and pretty low sustain, it is justified to have it.

Other invulnerability, like mist form, elixir S all lock you down in empty bar, same as renew focus which they’re channeling.

There are SO many other things that ele focus is good for. Swirling Winds, Gale, Magnetic Wave, and even Comet can all be used to turn a fight in your favor. Saying that Obsidian Flesh is the defining skill of the weapon gives me the impression that you haven’t used it enough to really know any better. They could very easily change it to only partially mitigate damage, or require a channel, or at the very least render you unable to use skills while it’s up and focus would still be a very strong defensive weapon.

Distortion, on the other hand, is a different story. Blurred Frenzy I’d say is fine because it requires you to stand in place and channel the sword flurry, but the Distortion shatter I’d say should be the same, where it prevents you from using other skills when it’s up. It’s meant to be a defensive mechanic, and it’s completely unfair to be able to burst someone down while they can do nothing but sit there watching their attacks do 0 damage.

I’d personally argue this for every “pseudo-invulnerability” skill as well, such as Endure Pain and Signet of Stone. Hopefully the introduction of Resistance as a boon will make Berserker’s Stance a bit more fair, but any sort of 100% damage mitigation that allows the use of other skills and can’t be stripped while it’s up just kittens up balancing pretty badly.

Ik how good focus is, just giving an example.
And yes, PVP wise Ele take focus mainly for that earth 5, because it is one of the strongest skills in game. Ofc there’re other good skills, but earth 5 is still probably one of the most crucial survival skills in PVP and maybe WvW. If Anet remove that skill from game, many people would have second thought about picking focus as their off-hand.

Invul is a hard counter to anything…

this is a poor arguement.

rajule.8054:

Invul is a hard counter to anything…

this is a poor arguement.

^^^^

The only thing that it doesn’t negate are existing condition effects on you. This thread and pretty much all the sub forums I’ve looked over are just idk…disappointing lately. In anycase if someone is popping invuln for a trap then you made them blow their defensive measure/oh s**t button. Knowing most invulnerability as well they have a long CD. So it isn’t really wasted unless you’re stacking all your traps or just relying on them to do more than 50% of your damage. Reserve judgement when you actually get to play the class.

its going to be as useful as thief and ranger traps..
not at all

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

All fighting games understand that a rock-paper-scissors philosophy needs to be applied to every mechanic. Every ability, can be overcome by another ability. Invulnerability does not follow this concept.

They don’t use rock-paper-scissors mentalities. Far from it. If it was that cut-and-dry, there would never be any research to be done or matchup knowledge to learn, it’d all be straightforward.

Hell, if you really want to play rock-paper-scissors, just go play rock-paper-scissors.

No, you can’t “counter” invulnerability directly, but it still poses an opportunity cost. The reason people have access to that is that it’s one of their defensive options. If it’s expended, they don’t have it for later. The “counter” to it, then, is indirect. For instance, forcing your enemy to expend it before you delete your kitten nal, or “baiting it out”.

And if you’d prefer a fighting game analogy, just look at your average street fighter game. Do all the characters have invincible uppercuts? No. Some of them don’t even have invincible moves at all. But the way you counter those is by learning how to exploit the tendencies of the user and not simply jumping in like a mindless maniac. Again, “baiting” can be quite effective.

2 of the big damage traps have 10 hits, and another requires them to cross a line. I don’t know, but those traps don’t seem like burst to me. Then again, I probably wouldn’t ever use them for single battles. Drop them where you can guarantee a zerg will cross, and you’ve got yourself some good overall damage.

Also, Sig of Spite hardly does damage. Its got a lot of messy condis, but there’s only poison and a midgen of bleeding for the moment damage wise.

You’re correct in that most everything on the forums is just speculation. I tend to see a lot of guardian speculation in the negative though.

I think people miss the fact that PVP is a little more complex than “Guardian vs. X” … even when they play the game.