Guild Wars 2

Hello fellows,

So I love theorycrafting.
Most my Guardian career I have been 0/0/30/20/20
Based around altruistic healing, high crit numbers, and empowered might for extra heals.
Currently I am swapping out some zerker gear for knights as i want more toughness but that should not effect my question.

Basically the 20 points in Virtues I used mainly for extra retaliation, buffs on virtues, and virtue of courage condition removal and slightly longer boons. All of which is “decent” for utility.

I use Save yourself with boon duration runes making it last 15 seconds currently, with stand your ground for anti cc.

So my question is this…… If I like being in the frontline, killing people while being hard to kill myself, basically what anyone wants is the 20 in virtues really that gamechanger? I mean 1-2 seconds extra per boon is sweet which adds up, but lets take 20 in zeal for instances, thats 200 might which would be an INSANE boost to my crit damage and 2hand sword.

Just lookin for opinions and people who think the 20 in virtues trumps others, why do you choose it over a pretty big damage boost with zeal, or even more crit or hp with other trait trees?

I don’t think any point in Virtue is worth it.

Sure, they do give unique benefits such as Boon Duration and Virtue Recharge that you can’t easily get in gear/boons, but I’m one that likes min-maxing my attributes to the best of it.
I’d spend, if I really had to to, only 5~10 points because the Minor is decent with Justice Renewed and for Master of Consecrations because well, consecrations are awesome for WvW (mainly Wall of Reflection).

But since I can live with a 40 sec CD and 10 sec duration Wall of Reflection, I don’t spend points in it.
Same goes for Runes, Boon Duration is awesome with Save Yourselves, but other than this I don’t think it’s really that great. It’s something that you need a high amount to make it worthwhile (about 50%) or you’ll barely notice it’s effects (imagine a 5.5 or 6 sec Empowering Might, up from 5 with 10/20%).

This is a case of Utility x Attributes I think, and it’s up to you if you’d drop utility in favor of attributes…

I love 20 in Virtues, especially if you’re running w/ a dedicated group: The ability to whipe 3 conditions on demand from a party of 5 is incredible. Hands down.

Or if you’re solo roaming and runing meditations, Aegis heals + VoC recharge 30s (heals for about 750 ish) is good too, which is what I’ve been doing.

AH, for melee / not support, lacks because you have to be around a bunch of allies for it to really kick in and keep you up… and this isn’t always the case, especially when pushing front lines or being “the first in”: You might have 1 or 2 other people beside you (usually an ele or another guard).

The one thing I’ve found that Guardians lack is Direct Healing. Regen is abundant in every aspect: everyone can apply a regen.

I’ve switched out of AH quite some time ago and moved into Meditations for the Direct Heals: I really don’t miss AH at all. It also free’s up your ~need~ to go into Honor: Vigor, Shouts, Dodge,Mights.

If you’re wanting to say as a AH build, but want a bit more dps, maybe try: 10/5/30/20/5

100 extra pwr
10% dmg
50 preceisio
1 xtra blind.

Nice thanks for the responses guys.
I do love that 3 condition removal from virtues but I like your idea of 10/5/30/20/5
Looks like I will have to try it. =P

Amins, try 10/0/30/25/5 instead. You gain 10% extra dmg from elusive power (25 point in honor), extra healing and HP as a bonus.

Of course, its requires to dodge pre initiation but it pays off.

Indomitable Courage and Absolute Resolution /warmfuzzyfeeling

IMO if you want to increase your dps, use dps-oriented runes instead of boon duration runes, stack power on a sigil and use a dps active sigil. You don’t necessarily have to change your traits around if you like your setup. IMO stacking boon duration is only worth it if you’re going all in on shouts, might-granting abilities, runes, sigils etc. and maybe hammer/mace for perma prot and regen. I use 0/0/30/20/20 as well because absolute resolution frees you up to use whatever utilities you want instead of having to use either shouts or meds for condition removal and I like to roll with sig of judgement and wall of reflection, both of which are very valuable for big fights.

Power 2103
Precision 1650
Toughness 1686
Vitality 1244
Critical Damage 70%
Condition Damage 0
Condition Duration 20%
Healing Power 250
Boon Duration 30%
Critical Chance 38.97%
Damage 0%
Armor 2897
Health 14085
Endurance Regeneration 0%
Agony Resistance 0
Virtue Recharge Rate 0%
Damage & Survivability
Effective Power 3086.36
Effective Health (EHP) 22225
Damage Reduction 36.62%
Reference Armor 1836

So this is what I have settled on after testing most the night and day.

20/0/30/20/0

I do not seem to be missing the utility too much so that is awesome.
I just love AH because it doesnt force me to use meditations and its just constant healing.

This is no oils or anything and I believe seems the best of all worlds builds.

=========

On that note as to some responses,
I do not understand fully the logic behind all or nothing, including boon duration.
using up 4 runes for 30% boon duration just seems so cool and good for me with all my might im stacking with empowered and using SaveYourselfStandYourGround and I am not even sacrificing all that much.

But yea, this is the build I am going with for now and thanks for the input on Virtue tree everyone.

If you think this build seems superior let me know!

Here is the complete build
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3|1.1g.a7|6.1g.a7|1n.71g.1g.71g.1n.71h.1n.71h.1c.a4.1n.a4|3s.e17.3u.e17.3s.e17.1n.67.1n.67.8g.67|k00.0.u060.k00.0|0.0|e

That effective healthpool is up almost 5,000 points since my last build that was full zerker and my damage decrease is hardly noticeable especially since now I am 20 zeal.

So good. =P

one thing to keep in mind regarding boon duration is how many seconds does it actually add to your boons? of course, certain boons are there and you get the full effect for the full duration, e.g. retal, stability, etc.. however many boons go off by ticks and if a certain percentage increase doesn’t give you an increase of up to over another full second, if i understand the game correctly, it won’t be rounded up. so you can do some quick math based on the boons and skills that you use most, how long is there initial duration for and the pro forma duration from adding 30%, or less, or more and go from there.

if you feel you’re in a good place thoug, stick with it and perfect the rest of it through rpactice and skill. : )))

From a theorycrafting perspective I consider 0/0/30/20/5 really mandatory: 0/5/30/30/5 and 0/0/30/30/10 seem the best to me, depending if you like consecrations or not.
Boon duration is awesome but 30 points in virtues only give you +30% to this and +30% to regenerating vitues that is meh at best: with 4 runes you achieve pretty much the same. Valor for example give you +300 toughness and +30% critical damage, how many runes do you need to get the same??? :P

Not placing 5 points in virtues (in AH builds in particular and in any build in general) is just poor economics.

Those five points has the same effect as having 1.5 more shouts with a 60s cd. i find it close to stupid to not have point in those, in reality its the same as being offered 1,5 more utility slots and turn that down.

Frankly the stats presented in this thread is kind of meh considering whats left out of the build. Its on par with what i have on my wvw build but with a lot less survivability and much worse condition removers and it also depends on constant burning to be 100% effective.

As Codo says 0/0/30/20/5 is meta atm and discussing a max build with out the base of such a build is moot imo.

My bunker/healing/support build does not use 20 in virtues.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Kawsay-Guardian-WWW-Support-Healing-Bunker/first#post1482488

15 in radiance gets so over looked for group support. In a well coordinated group you can spam VoJ which is group burning damage and might stacking. Blind exposure is just awesome, espcially with leap of faith because it stacks with the more targets you hit. You hit 2 targets, they both get 6 stacks… you hit 5 targets they all get 15 stacks. It is a nice boost to dps.

Blasino.3128:

Blind exposure is just awesome, espcially with leap of faith because it stacks with the more targets you hit. You hit 2 targets, they both get 6 stacks… you hit 5 targets they all get 15 stacks. It is a nice boost to dps.

Blind exposure with leap of faith is rather bugged than being awesome.

Brutaly.6257:

As Codo says 0/0/30/20/5 is meta atm and discussing a max build with out the base of such a build is moot imo.

Meta is the current state of game, doesn’t mean it’s the best. It’s why meta evolves. I consider AH being completely unnecessary trait if you can mitigate damage through other means.

haviz.1340:

Meta is the current state of game, doesn’t mean it’s the best. It’s why meta evolves. I consider AH being completely unnecessary trait if you can mitigate damage through other means.

I know what meta means and in this case, in wvw in particular, a build without AH isnt the best so atm meta and “best” are the same. Any build out there becomes either a wet noodle or a squischy without it.

Its like the the healway guardian, trait that but instead of stacking virtues and honor go for a 0/0/30/20/20 build with clerics and it gets even more powerful. Builds without AH are gimmicks and/or retal easymode.

Anything without AH or monks focus isnt competitive, other then in duel situation, and this is true in wvw and Tpvp. Tbh i cant see myself loosing out versus any build that hasnt got AH as long as i run a retal/cleric/AH setup.

The thing is you can have AH and also have all the other means of mitigation that any other build has, so not using AH is gimping your self. So if you consider AH to be unneccessary is moot, if you want to max your build AH or Monks focus should be in there, which i thought were the topic of the thread, to max your build.

haviz.1340:

Blasino.3128:

Blind exposure is just awesome, espcially with leap of faith because it stacks with the more targets you hit. You hit 2 targets, they both get 6 stacks… you hit 5 targets they all get 15 stacks. It is a nice boost to dps.

Blind exposure with leap of faith is rather bugged than being awesome.

Brutaly.6257:

As Codo says 0/0/30/20/5 is meta atm and discussing a max build with out the base of such a build is moot imo.

Meta is the current state of game, doesn’t mean it’s the best. It’s why meta evolves. I consider AH being completely unnecessary trait if you can mitigate damage through other means.

The only alternative to AH or MF is the Healway build and you kill your damage output for more sustained healing and nonbursty dps. Burst is king in PvP because you can change the flow of combat with it.

Brutaly.6257:

haviz.1340:

Meta is the current state of game, doesn’t mean it’s the best. It’s why meta evolves. I consider AH being completely unnecessary trait if you can mitigate damage through other means.

I know what meta means and in this case, in wvw in particular, a build without AH isnt the best so atm meta and “best” are the same. Any build out there becomes either a wet noodle or a squischy without it.

Its like the the healway guardian, trait that but instead of stacking virtues and honor go for a 0/0/30/20/20 build with clerics and it gets even more powerful. Builds without AH are gimmicks and/or retal easymode.

Anything without AH or monks focus isnt competitive, other then in duel situation, and this is true in wvw and Tpvp. Tbh i cant see myself loosing out versus any build that hasnt got AH as long as i run a retal/cleric/AH setup.

The thing is you can have AH and also have all the other means of mitigation that any other build has, so not using AH is gimping your self. So if you consider AH to be unneccessary is moot, if you want to max your build AH or Monks focus should be in there, which i thought were the topic of the thread, to max your build.

Classic ‘you need to take this, this and this or you’re not going to be any good’ which is just narrow minded thinking. Sure AH and Monk are pretty much the best traits available to the Guardian right now but by no means are they the end of the line.

The fact that you think anything without AH is a gimmick just isn’t fair on all those players who don’t want to be stuck to one trait for their entire playtime. Sure this thread is about maxing but that is no excuse for narrow minded elitism.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

The only alternative to AH or MF is the Healway build and you kill your damage output for more sustained healing and nonbursty dps. Burst is king in PvP because you can change the flow of combat with it.

Spot on, and the healway build can be made even stronger if you incorporate AH in it.

To be very blunt, healway is only max for people that has about zero skill and cant hit the opponent and cant get boons to the team.

Its an easy mode, medium effective and effortless build which relies almost solely on retaliation and it suits people with a low level of skill due to its forgiving nature. Not saying its not interesting, i run a similar in tpvp from time to time, but its not a max performance build, on the contrary it favor the ones with really low performance.

Anything without AH/MF isnt max in pvp.

tanshiniza.8629:

The fact that you think anything without AH is a gimmick just isn’t fair on all those players who don’t want to be stuck to one trait for their entire playtime. Sure this thread is about maxing but that is no excuse for narrow minded elitism.

Sorry if i come on to strong. Dont get me wrong i dont try to be condescending versus people that dont run AH builds. I run them more and more seldom in wvw just due to the fact that i want some variation in gameplay. And still i find those builds to be non competitive but i have no issues with people playing with them. They are in many cases really nice entertainment.

I thought this thread was about max in a certain build, which contains AH, and in such a build not traiting 5 points into virtues isnt max.

So no by all means play what ever you like but i thought the thread was about max builds, my mistake if it wasnt.

Brutaly.6257:

I know what meta means and in this case, in wvw in particular, a build without AH isnt the best so atm meta and “best” are the same. Any build out there becomes either a wet noodle or a squischy without it.

What gives you AH? Survivability. If you think you can’t survive despite numerous blinds, blocks, reflections and defensive boons you need that. However, it’s not needed at all.

Its like the the healway guardian, trait that but instead of stacking virtues and honor go for a 0/0/30/20/20 build with clerics and it gets even more powerful. Builds without AH are gimmicks and/or retal easy mode.

How are builds without AH gimmicks? Are you that narrow-minded?

Anything without AH or monks focus isnt competitive, other then in duel situation, and this is true in wvw and Tpvp. Tbh i cant see myself loosing out versus any build that hasnt got AH as long as i run a retal/cleric/AH setup.

I just checked few meta tPvP builds and less than a half had AH. I don’t play wvw so I won’t comment that but it’s highly imbalanced.

Your non-AH vs AH/retal/cleric is rather strange comparison. Yours is most likely a bunker.

The thing is you can have AH and also have all the other means of mitigation that any other build has, so not using AH is gimping your self. So if you consider AH to be unneccessary is moot, if you want to max your build AH or Monks focus should be in there.

Why do you need even more damage mitigation when those I listed are enough (technically speaking AH doesn’t mitigate damage)? You’re neglecting other aspects of guardian in favour of more survivability which is not necessary in most cases.

What does “max your build” mean anyway? Max in what aspect? Damage? Survivability? Support?

Brutaly.6257:

tanshiniza.8629:

The fact that you think anything without AH is a gimmick just isn’t fair on all those players who don’t want to be stuck to one trait for their entire playtime. Sure this thread is about maxing but that is no excuse for narrow minded elitism.

Sorry if i come on to strong. Dont get me wrong i dont try to be condescending versus people that dont run AH builds. I run them more and more seldom in wvw just due to the fact that i want some variation in gameplay. And still i find those builds to be non competitive but i have no issues with people playing with them. They are in many cases really nice entertainment.

I thought this thread was about max in a certain build, which contains AH, and in such a build not traiting 5 points into virtues isnt max.

So no by all means play what ever you like but i thought the thread was about max builds, my mistake if it wasnt.

You are correct in the case of this Thread when it comes to maximising but it was because you came across a bit strong that I felt the need to say something. I also apologise if I was a bit moody with my reply.

Back to things at hand to maximise an AH build not putting the minimum of 5 in virtues is a mistake but at the same time I can understand how tempting it is to put those points elsewhere. In the end it depends on your play style because even meta builds can flop hard if you don’t usually play in that way.

I do agree to some extent that MF and AH are very important traits for a guardian, due to the fact that most of our survivability comes from healing. Traitlines like Zeal are lacking becuase they are simply not balanced for the current meta. It has been a long time since we have seen any actual balance changes.
Take a look at “Zealous Blade” i simply can’t find any use for it. And with the latest nerf to spirit weapons, every trait that boosts them are useless as well.
Therefore most people go for MF and AH, and the 20 points in Virtues make sure you have at least some condition removal.
It is also incredibly easy for a guardian to keep almost permanent retaliation with only 20 points in Virtues, which is imo worth it if you spec for a more defensive build.

That being said, it is definitely very situation-biased. AH is the safe choice and works in pretty much every situation. Having retaliation from the 20 points in Virtues requires very little skill to utilize as well, and therefore making it very popular.

In sPvP I am currently running a burst build with the following traits 10/30/30/0/0, and since i can easily burst for way over 10k dmg in a few seconds the 20 points in Virtues is simply not necessary. This build would not work in WvW though, and at the moment i am actually running an AH variation, and have 20 points in Virtues because that is the most optimal way to get condition removal AND retaliation for only 20 points.
If you were to min/max your attributes sure the increase in boon duration is pretty much useless, but the benefits of the utilities you get are way better than the ones from Zeal or Radiance, if you are not going all-in on burst / GC.
An increase of 200-300 power from speccing in Zeal would be very useful, and if you want to try that route, i would suggest looking into runes and/or sigils that can help balance the build (For WvW, since GC builds are useless there). For instance condition removal on crit or similar.

really hope traits like Zealous Blade will get balanced for the current meta, having a reliable offensive healing source in the Zeal traitline would be amazing for versatility.

EDIT: I just read the thread more thoroughly, and yes i agree EITHER AH or MF is pretty much necessary. Even for a burst build, since you also get 30% crit dmg traiting either of those. You can do viable builds without those, as you can get a lot of healing from dodging if you spec healing power.

haviz.1340:

Brutaly.6257:

I know what meta means and in this case, in wvw in particular, a build without AH isnt the best so atm meta and “best” are the same. Any build out there becomes either a wet noodle or a squischy without it.

What gives you AH? Survivability. If you think you can’t survive despite numerous blinds, blocks, reflections and defensive boons you need that. However, it’s not needed at all.

Its like the the healway guardian, trait that but instead of stacking virtues and honor go for a 0/0/30/20/20 build with clerics and it gets even more powerful. Builds without AH are gimmicks and/or retal easy mode.

How are builds without AH gimmicks? Are you that narrow-minded?

Anything without AH or monks focus isnt competitive, other then in duel situation, and this is true in wvw and Tpvp. Tbh i cant see myself loosing out versus any build that hasnt got AH as long as i run a retal/cleric/AH setup.

I just checked few meta tPvP builds and less than a half had AH. I don’t play wvw so I won’t comment that but it’s highly imbalanced.

Your non-AH vs AH/retal/cleric is rather strange comparison. Yours is most likely a bunker.

The thing is you can have AH and also have all the other means of mitigation that any other build has, so not using AH is gimping your self. So if you consider AH to be unneccessary is moot, if you want to max your build AH or Monks focus should be in there.

Why do you need even more damage mitigation when those I listed are enough (technically speaking AH doesn’t mitigate damage)? You’re neglecting other aspects of guardian in favour of more survivability which is not necessary in most cases.

What does “max your build” mean anyway? Max in what aspect? Damage? Survivability? Support?

AH not only gives you survivability in the absurd, the traits when traiting (purity, retributive armor especially) adds dps and even more survivability and so does the traitline in it self thru toughness and critical damage. The whole idea with AH is that you can build even more offense into the build/gear and still keep the same survivability as a non AH guardian. And as i said you can still use all other means of mitigation while having AH/MF

I havent said that you cant survive without it, the thing is you can survive the same but with a much more offensive setup, if that is your choice.

“Gimmick=a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something “stand out” from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use." Pretty much describes it, they will stand out and can be fun but they have little relevance.

I play mostly tpvp and we seem to live in different worlds, i havent seen a single guardian that performs outstanding that havent got either AH or MF. I do have seen a bunch of guardians without it and they all perform rather poorly but its an observation so it is subjective. Btw implicitely you say you have some sort of statistics regarding tpvp builds, less then half being AH, i would appriciate a source on that.

My AH cleric was in reference to the healway build, which can be found in these forums, in that perspective my AH/cleric isnt a bunker at all. The healway is a bunker though.

Technically AH do mitigate damage.
Blocks/dodges are pro active means of mitigation
Protection/armor are passive means of mitigation
Heals are reactive means of mitigation.

Im not a english native but mitigation imo means to dampening something and no where can i find that mitigation has to be active in advance or passive while dampening in order to be qualified as “mitigation”. Im a business man an when i do mistakes i have to mitigate the damage some how and very often that has to be done re actively.

Once again, you dont need more mitigation by default but you can dress up much more offensively and have the same survivability.

The only time its questionable to not have AH/MF is in 30/30/x/x/x build with full berserkers. And maybe not even then since the AH tratiline is one of the best ways to get critical damage. But i cant see how such a build, in the current state of our traitlines are even close to competitive in wvw/tpvp. Frankly such a build probably isnt even max dps either but i used it as an example.

Since we have rather opposite opinions on that matter and we won’t reach consensus, shall we at least try to divide necessity of AH/MF in different game types? I can’t comment WvW but for me it’s completely unnecessary in PvE and let’s say 50/50 necessary in PvP. Now, I know this answer won’t satisfy you but I play computer games for fun and where’s the fun when you play build with absurdic survivability. I’d rather spent quality time on the floor and analyze what went wrong than be satisfied with my rather above average survivability. I had exactly same attitude in gw1. I was playing builds that were straying from meta in gvg yet they were (imo) more fun, less stagnant and gave more satisfaction once you mastered them.

haviz.1340:

Since we have rather opposite opinions on that matter and we won’t reach consensus, shall we at least try to divide necessity of AH/MF in different game types? I can’t comment WvW but for me it’s completely unnecessary in PvE and let’s say 50/50 necessary in PvP. Now, I know this answer won’t satisfy you but I play computer games for fun and where’s the fun when you play build with absurdic survivability. I’d rather spent quality time on the floor and analyze what went wrong than be satisfied with my rather above average survivability. I had exactly same attitude in gw1. I was playing builds that were straying from meta in gvg yet they were (imo) more fun, less stagnant and gave more satisfaction once you mastered them.

Ok, but you cannot say that AH is not technically the best just because it seems easy-mode to you and so you have not fun!

AH is for those who enjoy getting hit alot (PvE) or those who play GW2 like the regular MMO combat rules.
AH is for those who want a “safe net” in case of failing skill-wise against someone (WvW, PvP), or is just for those who play bunker styles.

A full Power/Precision Player has very low odds of killing a full Toughness/Vitality Player, simply because the offensive stats aren’t on par with the defensive ones.
Which is a good thing, because you don’t get those bursty one-shot PvP like you do in other games, but this also means it’s better to run a more defensive oriented playstyle than offensive.

That’s why people say “AH is a must”.

What I dislike about AH is that most people who build for it are just following some forum post without putting a thought about it and end up with crappy bunkers, low damage, and terrible skills (since they can neglect dodging or evading).

@Haviz
Im not saying AH is necessary, it isnt, im saying its necessary for max performance and the fact is that in a controlled environment, like pve, its get crazy strong. But it it necessary? No not in any kind of game mode.

I agree you should play for fun but that doesnt change the fact that AH is just to good to pass on as long as you have 0,5 teammate in vicinity.

@Danicco
That is one way to put it which imo is even more true for a retal and/or cleric setup which just negates the entire concept of dodging damage.

An other way to put it is that AH is for the ones that:
1. Want 300 toughness, at least, thru armor and traits, in their build
2. Think 10s passive condition removal is great
3. Wants 4-7% more crit chance by having toughness.
4. Think that being able to gain over 2k health (food not included) every hammer chain+MB, in a coordinated team, are going to give them an upper hand.
5. Want to keep survivability while using a more offensive setup of gear.
6. Wants to be rewarded for supporting your team with boons.

Thats why AH is a must

Playing AH as a bunker in wvw is just stupid imo, then people have missed the entire point of taking AH.

The fact is that in a coordinated team, and with a proper build, AH is the best selfheal we have and its stronger than a dodge heal with 1k healing power, hell its stronger even with fully stacked healing power.

It amazes me that people are arguing against this and are trying to construct some sort of personal reasons and mask them as objective arguments. Personally i find AH/MF to be flawed due to the imbalances it creates in our traits and atm its overpowered compared to the other trait lines. They should be removed imo.

Brutaly.6257:

Thats why AH is a must

If you don’t die at all (in PvE) without AH, why taking it in the first place?

Hey Brutaly, I have seen you in a few post critique others builds as not getting the same stats as you can achieve non grouped and no food.

Would you mind posting a screenshot or the build from http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/

I just do not see how you can reach the stats you say in a previous post still with no evidence.
3k armor
1700 hp
40% crit
70% crit damage

Especially using 20 in valor which gives absolutley no stats whatsoever.

Just wanna see where I am going so wrong gear wise especially when you say
“Frankly the stats presented in this thread is kind of meh considering whats left out of the build. Its on par with what i have on my wvw build but with a lot less survivability and much worse condition removers and it also depends on constant burning to be 100% effective.”

Also not to criticize back too much, but
5 points into Virtue nets you a 5 seconds of 3 stacks of might and regen. I would hardly claim that is a shout and a half …..

I would just love to see some valid screenshots or proof via build calculator of these better stats.

That all said, thanks a ton for the feedback all is appreciated even if hard to believe

I’m a hair away from suggesting that valour traitline in general, needs some toning down because it does play so prominent a role in builds. I do have to agree that if you are doing AH, you need Virtue 5 if the goal is to optimize.

When I do go with a virtue 20 build, usually I feel that I can push a bit more of an offensive gearload to make up for missing trait points in Zeal or Radiance. Truth be told, I have only one build that uses Zeal (see sig link), it’s a favourite but it has limited application. I actually dislike the paradox between having to choose between the passive and active Virtue abilities so I don’t tend to spend in Virtue alot.

Nerf the only things keeping us alive.

Wonderfully thought out.

How about buff the other traitlines to bring them on par?

Because if you didn’t have AH or MF, you would have to spec Staff 0/0/0/30/30 and in full clerics, just to stay alive in.

And before you say “that’s not true”. Please post a Video of WvW where you do not have 30 in Valor and are able to go “Balls Deep” into a zerg w/ a Ele & Guard by your side.

You can’t.

You can jump in, but then you’d have to retreat out. You would not be able to stay inside and fight to break thier lines for any duration of time.

We would be pigeon holed and the class would fall apart.

Oozo is one that comes close, but after he jumps in and JI/RoW, lands a couple blows, he backs out becuase he lack the staying power w/o MF or AH.

The “Healway” might be the only contender out there… but dodge rolling for your heals is only going to get you so far w/o any kind of tertiary healing: Dodge, Regen + Direct ability (MF/ZE/AH – being tertiary in this instance).

They screwed up… ‘they’ being anet by giving two powerful heals in 1 tree, but making anything more (like a real ZE ability) be too over the top: They won’t allow ZE to be improved upon because it could be doubled up w/ the Valor line and we would be OP.

They need to increase the other grandmaster traits to where they outweigh the healing…. maybe damage negation so we could get rid of the healing.

Regardless, to say they need to be nerf’d would cripple the entire Guardian population.

And yes, I only ever talk in relation to WvW because that’s where all the grown ups play: Nothing else matters.

haviz.1340:

Brutaly.6257:

Thats why AH is a must

If you don’t die at all (in PvE) without AH, why taking it in the first place?

ok if we assume you dont die in pve at all then a full berserker setup is alright and you want to max dps. Fair enough?

compare these two builds:

30/25/X/X/X (Build A)
Power 2218
Precision 1848
Toughness 982
Vitality 1147
Critical Damage + 60%
Condition Damage + 250
Condition Duration 30%
Healing Power 50
Boon Duration 0%
Critical Chance 48.38%
Damage 27.05%
Armor 2193
Health 13115

And
10/25/30/X/X (Build B )
Power 2018
Precision 1848
Toughness 1282
Vitality 1147
Critical Damage + 90%
Condition Damage + 250
Condition Duration 10%
Critical Chance 51.43%
Damage 21%
Armor 2493
Health 13115

Both wield gs+hammer for the sake of the comparison. Both weapons are used an equal amount of time to use their cool downs so we max dps, but for the sake of the arguement we add in 100% of the gain of GS specific traits.

Build A:
greatsword power which is an extra 5% damage
200 power from more investment in the traitline which adds just under 10% dps but lets say it 10%.
a total of 15%, but if we swap between hammer and gs equally, its 12,5%.

In addition to that gs heals for about 40-50 per second in average from zealous blade.

Build B:
Has an additional 3% crit rating through retributive armor which adds about 4% dps in combination with the increase in critical damage.
has an additional 30% crit damage which adds 15% dps with the current crit rating
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

And in additon to that we have one passive condition remover every 10 seconds and ofc AH/MF and about 10% extra mitigation.

So in short even if you want to max dps, as long as you have about 40% crit chance with consumables, going for AH/MF is also a great way to increase your dps. And ofc with more mitigation you can do dps for longer periods of time before you need to kite.

I might have done some mistakes i did this more or less in my head and jolted on my iphone but i think it serves to show that there are more to that traitline then just AH, its the third dps trait line we have and it also adds great survivability.

Im pretty sure i miscalculated but is so then it was an honest mistake.

There are also more reasons to grab AH in pve but i think the dps example is enough since you dont die in pve.

unrelated stuff…

Also not to criticize back too much, but
5 points into Virtue nets you a 5 seconds of 3 stacks of might and regen. I would hardly claim that is a shout and a half …..

I would just love to see some valid screenshots or proof via build calculator of these better stats.

That all said, thanks a ton for the feedback all is appreciated even if hard to believe

May i suggest you read the entire thread where that was written and you might find out as it is in the text.

5 points in virtues then i get 3*might for 5 seconds
regen for 5 seconds
protection for 5 seconds

Regen and protection is equal or close to equal to HtL and then we have might left.

cooldowns are 30, 60 and 90 s, which is an average cd of 60s or actually 57s since 5 points in virtues reduces the cd.

Those boons isnt limited to the same small area as our shouts, the area is huge and our elite resets them all when needed.

No you are right, i think traiting 5 points isnt as good as 1.5 shouts, i think its even better then 1.5 shouts

@Amins
You are ofc right, the main issue isnt that AH is superstrong, the issue is that its superstrong compared to the other traitlines. I stand corrected and revoke my previous statement.

Amins.3710:

Nerf the only things keeping us alive.

Wonderfully thought out.

How about buff the other traitlines to bring them on par?

Well for starts, tone down the level of sensationalism.

Secondly, this isn’t the only thing keeping us alive. Yes, it’s awesome. That’s why it’s not unreasonable to think it’s TOO awesome and wouldn’t leave us going for the alternatives. The AH build is pretty situational and MF is constricting. Survival is more than just valor 30. Guardian is a deeper class that this.

Thirdly, yes it would be reasonable to consider where a balance could be achieved over other traits. If that was actually in the scope of this thread, I might have gone there but it’s not.

JEEZ.

MF & AH are the only “Burst Healing” we have, outside of our actual heal ability.. and even then, there’s casting times, so it doesn’t really effective meet the “Burst” standards.

And as for making me have to look up “sensationalism”, Obtena /throwsmonkeypoo.

They are the only 2 sources of Burst Healing, and we all know Burst is King.

And as for a MAX DPS build, you better have 30 Valor. Not for AH/MF, but for 30% crit dmg, toughness & Prec via Toughness.

Brutaly.6257:

-snip-

I don’t play with 30/25 for dps or with a hammer. Plus, +%dmg traits stack multiplicatively. So far, best dps setups are either 25/25/0/25/0, 20/30/0/20/0 or their various derivatives.

You’re not even counting 15 and 25 minor traits but they add minor dps increase and your 30/25 lacks 10 points you gave to yours.

Using oils/stones for pve is much worse than potions. You’ll have 3-5% more to crit, I’ll have +10% more dmg (which most likely stacks multiplicatively).

One more thing, why your full zerker builds have bonus to toughness and vitality? Mine don’t.

Build I’m now testing has 10/30/30/0/0 to see how it feels (with MF instead of AH). Stats without any buffs, sigils, foods are:

Power: 2180
Precision: 2018
Toughness: 1216
Vitality: 916
Additional Crit dmg: 110% or 109% (1h or 2h)
Crit chance: 71% or 56% (1h or 2h)

Well if you want to max a dps build hammer isnt even a weapon that should be used. I had it in there for the sake of the argument.

It doesnt matter in the example if they are multiplicative since its only one variable between the two setups, 5% to GS. Hence it is a flat 5% extra to damage done compared to without it.

No i didnt count none of them into the equation. But lets do that. Symbolic exposure applies 4 stacks (increased symbolduration) of vulnerability on the hammer. An estimate is that 2-3 stacks over time, while using the hammer, is a a correct amount. Then you swap and place SoW and it applies 5 stacks over the duration, it contributes with about 2 stacks over time. So the effective contribution to overall dps is about 2-3%.
And now we add in that there are other profession that applies vulnerability much better, faster and more reliable and in a competent group 25 stacks 24/7, non of the applied by the guardian, is more likely.
The symbols are also stationary and requires the target to be in them to actually apply the vulnerability. But i will be generous so add in 3% damage from them.

The same goes for symbolic power. At a 100% stationary target they are indeed effective but as soon as they move the impact drops to the ground. But lets say symbols are 20-25% of the damage when swapping between hammer and GS, this means andextra 2-3%. I think its closer to 2%.

So add in 2+3% to the above.
12,5%+5%. Its about 17,5%, 20% if im very generous.

Valor adds 19% in the current setup.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

But if we are going to scrutinize the setup and look for max, which is kind of the point of the discussion, than by all means lets try to do that.

Use scepter and GS/1h sword, which is the top dps setup, then the symbol traits loose almost all its impact and the above becomes even less powerful.

If we add in a team, and boons from the team, critical damage (valor) has some insane synergies with fury in a full berserker.
Lets say we have 50% crit and 70% cd in build A. Adding 60% dps
And if we have 53% crit and 100% cd in build B. Adding 75+4,5%
19,5% difference.

Now add fury on top of this:
70% crit and 70% cd in build A. Adding 84% dps
73% crit and 100 cd in build B. Adding 109,5% damage
25,5% difference
Which even further emphasize the strength of valor.

The question left to answer is if writ of persistence makes up for that difference and i cant see that happen.

I didnt include oils or stones in the stats above. But there you have an additional 10% crit damage if you like, which seems to favor increase in dps in a progressive fashion.

Toughness comes from valor ofc but if there is a bonus to vitality its a typo, i write on iphone since im on a business trip so its an error from my side. But i cant find it, both statsheets seem to have the same vitality/healthpool. Or am i misunderstanding you?

MF is in the same league as AH, one is good for soloplay or with one teammate and the other one is good in teams. Btw MF adds about 100 dps over time also as long as you use smite conditions and judges intervention.

Other reasons to play with AH in pve is:
High toughness generates aggro
Close proximity generates aggro
Small healthppol generates aggro
Allows you to tank most opponents, unless they have specific mechanics that makes tanking impossible, in dungeons and factals up to level 20, havent done further so i dont know how hard it is after that but i suspect it will be more kiting ranged later on.

Which allows the real dps in the group to have more time doing dps and less time kiting which ofc adds dps and increase the overall performance.

And ofc the survivability it adds allows you to stay close and personal for longer durations of time, while doing dps.

You’re still comparing 30/30 build to 10/30/30. You’re still adding +12,5% (hammer/gs, you can’t say “for the sake of comparison” while it invalidates it in the first place). You can’t include oils because they’re bad in pve. You’re not including -20% recharge for 2h, writ of exaltation or superior aura and elusive power. Next thing, non-stationary foes in pve? And most important thing, you still want to tank.

Also, dps builds for guardians have around 90-105% crit chance with fury and +60precision food.

Your math is wrong. Even with 10/30/30 which lets say is really nice dps configuration your dps is like this (assuming no might stacks, 100% crit chance which is very generous for crit damage and +110% crit damage)

2181 (power) * (1 + 1 * 1.6) * 1.1 (fiery wrath) * 1.1 (radiant power) * 1.1 (potion) * 1.05 (powerful blades) = 7924.9471

With 15/30/0/25/0 (sword build):

2231 * (1 + 1 * 1.3) * 1.1 (fiery wrath) * 1.1 (radiant power) * 1.1 (potion) * 1.1 (elusive power) * 1.05 (powerful blades) = 7888,373

With 25 stacks of might it’s 11067.94248 vs 10946.84144

I left out weapon damage and skill modifier “for the sake of comparison” and assumed sword build because 10/30/30 is rather 1h build, not GS. For GS, it’s much better to get 20/25/25 or 15/25/30 if you really want 30 points in valor.

We can put down our simple math, it doesn’t really matter. The difference is not big enough to be stuck in 0/0/30/20/5 template or just 0/0/30/0/0.

EDIT: I compared 30/30/10/0/0 to 10/30/30/0/0 (GS builds) and the difference is much in favour for the former.

Even after that consideration, the only reason valor is good for dps is not because of AH but because of 30% crit dmg which I believe is the one the biggest mistake anet did with guardians (every other profesion’s prowess is increased through precision of 5th trait line).

Last thing, with 15 in zeal vulnerability from symbols lasts 3.5s

I don’t know, maybe you’re better guardian than me but what build would you suggest for gs/sword+x disregarding survivability and going straigth for dps. I’m up for suggestion, I’m testing various builds, 10/30/30/0/0 being my current one. Significant stats (dps-wise) were listed in my previous post.

Crenshinabon.7295:

Hey Brutaly, I have seen you in a few post critique others builds as not getting the same stats as you can achieve non grouped and no food.

Would you mind posting a screenshot or the build from http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/

Yes please, Brutaly. This would help a lot. Thank you.

Amins.3710:

Because if you didn’t have AH or MF, you would have to spec Staff 0/0/0/30/30 and in full clerics, just to stay alive in.

And before you say “that’s not true”. Please post a Video of WvW where you do not have 30 in Valor and are able to go “Balls Deep” into a zerg w/ a Ele & Guard by your side.

You can’t.

You can jump in, but then you’d have to retreat out. You would not be able to stay inside and fight to break thier lines for any duration of time.

You’re not being partial here because there’s a bunch of differences and variables of “go Balls Deep into a zerg” that you can’t quantify.

I Judge’s Intervention my way pretty often alone against 15~20+ and of course I do have to retreat my way out, if I could down all of them I would be banned for being too OP.
I can manage fine for quite some time depending on how focused I am.

For example, as a note, I’ve fought a Warrior that, with me being at 2900 Defense and 20k Health, I’d go down in a single Hundred Blades + Whirlwind Attack.
He’d pop Haste and probably a bunch of stuff too (I was always either Immobilized or Knocked down).
Another example is a Thief’s burst, though I can’t say how many of them were glass cannons, but their usual burst takes about 50% of my Health (Cloak and Dagger, Mug, Backstab).

And this is with a non-AH build, with 10 in Valor. I seriously doubt that simply by having AH would make me withstand that Warrior’s burst or would make fighting two thieves any easier.

In a zerg x zerg fight, all that it takes is a few bursts like this and AH or non-AH, you’re down.

So fighting under-average and under-geared players and staying alive for 5 min isn’t a proper argument of “AH is awesome”.
Or I could also say “30 in Zeal is awesome! I Judge’d in with Binding Blades, and with a single pull and Whirling Wrath I got 5 guys downed!”.
This happens quite often, but I also notice the times it doesn’t is because the enemy is smart/better players than the usual.

I don’t play my Guardian much anymore (sadly) but when I do I use 20 points in Virtues. The reason I use that is for the boon duration.

Nothing is more frustrating than fighting a competent enemy knowing you’ve lost before you’ve even started because they have perma-swiftness (or 25%) and you have almost no swiftness. If they avoid your CC you essentially lose. So, I just use Save Yourselves and Retreat for almost perma-swiftness. I lose a lot of damage and utility in doing so, but it’s an easy choice for me. I can choose to do almost no damage against anyone who is as skilled as I am, or I can do moderate damage with a poor offensive build that is hard to kite.

Seeing how new patch improves rather supportish side of guardian I can see 0/0/30/30/0 being almost standard now (instead of usual 0/0/30/20/0). Fixed pure of voice coupled with runes of soldier brings condition-free environment. That trait setup will unfortunately bring even more faceroll (“I can tank even better”).

New patch came out fixing pure of voice.
I have now swapped to 5/0/30/30/5
So far I am really liking this setup.

I am losing 100 power + 10% with burn + small vuln stacks.
Gaining 100 vitality (was kind of needed) + 10% with low end + Pure of Voice.

So far I am seeing this as a superior build.
It even makes me not need 20 in virtues for the condition removal anymore because pure of voice is superior to all condition removal. Gaining even MORE boons for my AH + Boon duration runes is so kittening amazing so far.

haviz.1340:

Lots of good stuff

But i think we are talking apples and pears.

i was unclear, we can talk about the same build, lets say 15/25/x/x/x, and we use GS and hammer as setup.

You say that 30 points in honor is, dps wise, better choice then 30 points in valor.

With full berserkers we would end up with about 70% crit damage and 50% % crit chance.

“My” build would have an additional 30% .

So far “my” build would have 30% more crit damage and a smidge more crit thru more toughness but forget about those 3-4% even though they are in my favor. This means >15% more dps from crit damage in solo play and in a competent and well composed team (max) it would mean >20% thru perma fury having synergies to the higher crit damage in “my” build.

You say:
- that 2,5s more fury+1,25 stack might (superior aria) per minute of gameplay, which is redundant in a well composed dps team.
- one more tick from SoP (about 8-10% increase on the hammer, 5% actually since you only play with the hammer 50% of the time) and two ticks on SoW per weapon swap, if you use writ of persistence.
- 20 sec less cd (roughly 7-8% dps increase on GS but in fact 4% due to swap).
- 10% from elusive power

Would be better then a 15 (20) dps increase from valor.

First there are moving targets in pve, at least in the dungeons i play which is most of them so you wont get as much dps from writ of persistence as you theoretically claim.

We can ignore the dps from superior aria, its redundant, even in wvw i have 100% uptime on fury, we even stack it, and its even easier to achieve in pve.

Sure i can give 1,25 stack of might per minute of gameplay but use it wisely so you dont use SyS when you have full stacks.

Last but not least elusive power. Frankly the day when you can say that one gave you 10% extra dps will be the day when there is some sort of condition that sucks all the endurance out of you. For it to work you have to give up approx 20% of the time you could be doing dps by dodging and than move back in range, since perma vigor fills you up in 5 seconds. So dodge every 5 seconds, its even questionable if you will have time to do one chain and a MB in that time frame, maybe if you mb first and then do the chain.

Sorry, on paper 30 in valor sounds good but in reality its not the best setup.

If you cant see that, we are to far apart to ever agree on this.

chaosmesmer.9857:

Crenshinabon.7295:

Hey Brutaly, I have seen you in a few post critique others builds as not getting the same stats as you can achieve non grouped and no food.

Would you mind posting a screenshot or the build from http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/

Yes please, Brutaly. This would help a lot. Thank you.

Its quoted out of context, as i said to the other bloke, he should read the entire thread instead of quoting out of context.

I honestly don’t know why you insist on hammer as 2nd weapon. Hammer is best used when just autoattacking with occasional mighty blow, it’s nowhere good as 2nd weapon.

If I go 30 in honour it’s for EM (or 2h mastery, depending on party composition) which gives steady +175 power across whole party, that’s about +8%dps for whole party (assuming everyone has 2000 power). 30% in valor is +15%dps with your crit chance and +21%dps when you have fury.

I don’t know if it works correctly but here you have

15/25/30/0/0

20/30/0/20/0

The difference is 192.49 in effective power in favour of former but it doesn’t include fury and EM.

• Without fury, if you add 175 power, second build has an advantage of 262.44 effective power.

• If we include fury (+420 precision) second build has an advantage of 200.49 effective power.

I don’t know how correctly those models are and it’s assuming you won’t have more than 20 stacks of might. On top of that you can have 1h weapon with +15% crit chance with second build or you can swap to hammer if situations calls for it and grab symbols-related traits which you can’t do with first build without respeccing. Flaw is of course less survivability due to not taking MF/AH.

I could also compare 15/25/30/0/0 to 20/25/0/25/0 but seeing as endurance is rather hard to model factor I disregarded that.

The reason i use the same setup of weapon and build is to isolate the issue which is the dps contribution in dps from valor compared to honor.

The reason i choose 2h weapons are that honor (“your” build) is strongly favored by using two hander when calculation the gain from honor.

empowering might isnt adding 175 power, five stacks is 160 which is max without boonduration runes and if you choose those runes then you will loose out on the alternative dps gain you could had from a different set of runes of the scholar or divinity comes to mind but there are other great choices as well.

Without boonduration runes you will have 2-3 stacks in average running with 50% crit rate and if you pump it up to 80% (right hand strength) you will have under 4 stacks running in average. Not even with 100% crit chance will you have 5 but around 4 stacks. Ofc versus a single target, you could have more running but then we are talking about aoe fights and then hammer and GS is the favorable choice.

With a 70% crit chance its about 3 stacks running in average so the dps gain is about 4%.

I have no issues with radiance, zeal or valor, from a dps perspective, they all contribute and there are setups where one is more favorable over the other.

In a 25 point radiance, full berserker, build 30 valor adds 30% crit damage and 3% crit

With 75% crit damage from gear and 52,67% crit chance you will have about 65% damage increase.

With 105% crit damage and 55,7% crit chance you will have about 83% damage increase. That is an 18% contribution from valor to your dps.

Adding in fury on top of that and honor isnt anywhere near this and all other buffs, might etc improves the base damage and contributes equally.

So the more crit chance you have and the more crit damage you have the more valuable fury becomes.

There is no chance you can find that in honor. maybe 8% from improving 2h and symbols and you get a dps decrease if you exploit elusive power.

The only time elusive power actually gives you anything is when you are tanking.

If we would switch from 2h weapons and add in 1 or 2 1h weapons it would be even more evident since those weapons have nothing at all to get from honor.

Imo there are basically a couple of builds which max dps depedning on weapon

10/30/30/0/0
15/25/30/0/0
20/25/25/0/0

Honor isnt one of them and even if gw2buildcraft.com says so they dont account for the lost dps thru dodging and in that calculator they show you the math, not the reality behind the math, and the reality is that you need to be under 50% endurance after a dodge on order to have time to unleash 2-3 skills before the next dodge. This is great in pvp and when tanking but in a full dps pve build its crap.

I will leave this discussion with a firm opinion that honor isnt maxing in any scenario and if people think that they overestimate the value of elusive power primarily, having that trait in a dps build forces you to loose dps to trigger it. And EM isnt that great either due to internal cd, crit rating and first and for most number of hits per second. There isnt a single person that runs around with more then 3-4 stacks of might on a single target, from em, without performance reducing runes, not even on a build with 70% crit chance and if they claim that they need to prove it, or file a bug report, because mathematically its impossible due to the restrictions mentioned above.

1. Since when one stack of might is +32 power?
2. My build has 91% to crit with gs and 106% to crit with 1h sword so it’s almost always 5 stacks.
3. I went yesterday to solo lupi with 10/30/30/0/0. Couldn’t live through phase 3 because vigor > passive heals from valor in most harder fights. I’ve done it with 20 in honour easily.
4. Build I posted doesn’t use elusive power which I pointed out.

1. Absolutely correct, got mindkittenced, multitasking in a conference call sitting on an airport isnt my forte.
2. The key word is almost. It also sometimes are at 3 stacks.

Chain on 1h sword has an average hit ratio of 1 hit per 0,86s give or take 5 hundreds of a second. This means that even with 100% crit two chains in a row will never ever produce more then 4 stacks of might and about 50% of the times only 3 stacks, two chains produce about 3,5 stacks. And two chains last longer than the duration of the might stacks. If you use the chain every second attack and an other type of attack inbetween you wont get close to 5 stacks in average even if the attack produces multi hits and very fast like torch or ZD. Sure you will hit 5 stacks for a very short period of time but after that you will be back having 3-4 stacks of might.

If you produce more than 4 stacks average with no boon duration enhancers you seriously must post a clip and share the trick you are using.

I think its your mind playing a game with you. I been in a similar discussion regarding the strength of empower on the staff, people seem to think that 12 stacks of might is superstrong and the team benefits dps wise of having guardians only use staff in dungeons. The fact is that empower gives you less than half of those stack in average over time and even if you focus on boonduration (50%) it will still not be more than maybe 7-8 stacks in average. I think you are dazzled by the few times you actually have 5 stacks, its classic positive reinforcement.

3. I don’t understand what this has to do with the discussion? I havent said you need 30 points in valor, i said valor is a stronger line for dps than honor.

4. Then you gain approx 6% from Em and approx an additional 5% from 2h mastery if you use gs as second. Its no where near what you get from valor.

The great thing about having Elusive Power for a DpS build is because you get more health, regen, Empowering Might and some defensive trait while still increasing damage.

You have to dodge, but there’s no encounter you can just stay still and DpS away until the boss is dead. You’d be dead if you attempt this. Using dodges when really needed increases your damage.
When you don’t need to dodge and you know you can spare a dodge, you can always dodge while moving towards the boss or right after the last hit of a combo trying to minimize the time lost.

Using a 20/25/0/25/0 has comparable damage to 20/25/25/0/0 (mostly because of Empowering Might), and you still get group support and extra survivability.

2. Lets assume it’s 4 stacks only. It’s still more dps and its party wide.
3. As everyone likes to say, dps is equal to 0 when you’re dead. I prefer active defense (vigor) than passive.
4. I gave you mathematical proof.

Now, don’t get me wrong. If I could, I would probably run something like 10/30/30/5/0 with MF because meditations might offer more complex gameplay than shouts. But seeing as I can’t have 75 traits, the only alternative would be 0/30/30/5/5.

The whole point of my exposition was to make you (and others) realize that going 30 in valor for critical damage isn’t always the best case scenario for dps reasons.

haviz.1340:

The whole point of my exposition was to make you (and others) realize that going 30 in valor for critical damage isn’t always the best case scenario for dps reasons.

Valour 30 gives a flat 8% damage increase (based on wiki crit chart) at level 80 with only base precision. In all honesty I’m sure you are right. Based PURELY on DPS reasons, if you had to decide where to put your last 30 traits, it would be Zeal, especially with GS. That’s the only thing I can think of that’s better for damage than 30 Valour.

I think where that view falls apart is that you have more than 30 traits to spend and for overall value, 30 Valour is way better than 30 Zeal. The max performance build has more factors than DPS. Valout 30 is really hard to get away from because everything in it is useful for almost any build you want to make.

I can’t see getting away from a 0/15/30/20/5 build for a super performance build (not really the right words, but I understand the intent of the thread). It’s versatile with any weapon you choose. It allows to optimize shouts and meditations. It’s extra healing and team benefits. It’s a super increase to active Virtues. Not sure anything could be better.

I’ve tried to run with X/X/30/X/20. It just didn’t have the feel, like I was always a bit shy of having an option at any moment. If I put the 20 honor, I didn’t like my damage, if I put 15 in radiance, I flirted with big hits.

I dont get how this turned into a crit conversation.

First of all stacking so much into Radiance for more crit seems like mostly a waste, not to mention a lot of the 1hand choices and radiance traits are inferior.

5/0/30/30/5
Gives the best of every world.

My endgame stats are now as follows.

Power 1945
Precision 1607
Toughness 1753
Vitality 1416
Critical Damage 63%
Condition Damage 0
Condition Duration 5%
Healing Power 350
Boon Duration 35%
Critical Chance 36.89%
Damage 10%
Armor 2964
Health 15805
Endurance Regeneration 0%
Agony Resistance 0
Virtue Recharge Rate 5%
Damage & Survivability
Effective Power 3031.32
Effective Health (EHP) 25515
Damage Reduction 38.06%

If anyone has something that seems better than this build please let me know.
I get might stacks consistently.
Tons of support and healing.
Runes give 35% boon duration which is insanely awesome.
Still have 5 in valor for extra boon effects.
Pure of voice gives even more boons and healing.
AH gives tons of mitigation/healing.

Over 3k attack hits like a truck.
almost 40% crit rate I see crits very often.
Great crit damage on this build from Valor has me hitting even harder.
Tons of effective hp and armor.

Seriously if anyone can provide the stats/reasoning behind any other build I would appreciate it. Just looking for some good logic into another build that would also perform well.

I just do not see the advantages from 20+ in radiance at all.

If I really feel like more crit rating i just pop an oil and food and it puts me around 45-50%.

This build is insane and I have yet to see the proof that peoples other builds have the stats to back it up.

Thoughts?