Guild Wars 2

Kjeldoran.3849:

mPascoal.4258:

Your example is bad. Just like blowing all Shouts at the same time for condi clear is extremely stupid. And since you used that “argument” to try to “prove” Medi is too good that needs a nerf on healing (like 2k heal is so OP, those 12k we would get would melt 2 secs after) so that support becomes more relevant (already is, Medi changes did not make Support any worse, if anything they might make it a bit better with Renewed Focus CD reduced, but too ltitle to notice, Bunker Guardian will still be wanted more than Meditation any day) somehow, I will end my contribution here by saying this.

Play Medi Guardian, it’s obvious that you never tried it deep enough to argue about it’s position compared to Support/Bunker Guardian. Support was allways in a good spot for Guardian and still is, even compared to other professions. Now they can support too which is great but they sure did not push Guardian off the table and they never will.

My example was an example and the simple fact that you actually get 12k heals, 20 sec fury and numbers of effect is simply… i dont want to say OP… but WRONG. Guardian is earning even more offensive abilities while it is supposed to be one of the best support class in the game and ACTUALLY it is one of the worst support and “not enough” at damage. At the actual state of the game the best support class are engineers (just look at boon spam and water blasts) and, if well played, elementalists.

And to reduce heals from meditations isn’t something of strange just follow me:
4 meditations = 8k heal
5 meditations = 10k heal
5 med (1.6k each) = 8k heal
got it? Also to “nerf” heals from meditations can actually help because in a game with even more zerg oriented mentality what whould you do with a “nerfed” dps? Go support, which is most natural thing to do for guardians. Not that we should do 0 damage but simply we should get more love on the support ability than dps.

PS: oh sorry but i actually play medi guard in pvp and … well heals from meditations is in a good spot… no wait WAS in a good spot NOW it is even more! It is not wrong the idea to give more heal, it is wrong to give even more heal on the same skillset!

Right we are in so bad spot for support but we are still one of the most wanted classes in the game. Ppl never complained about having a Guardian, ppl ask for them for dgns, for PvP and for WvW, if ppl ask for us to be there we can’t be in a bad spot at all. Also it’s not wrong to get more heal when other classes got mroe damage and more conditions, heck do you think straight? Give other more damage and keep us with the same sustain? Like Medi is that hard to kill. Also you said was in a good spot now is even more. I don’t see what is bad about that, it did not became OP and as you said left us in a good spot still.

As ppl also said before those support otehr classes give are mainly via combo fields and blast finishers. Do you want to give Guardian a Water field? Where is the logic about a light magic class using water magic now? Right, none. Also Engineer support is in so good spot, is so much better that Guardians support, that it’s not even in top tier PvP, while Guardian Bunker/Support is (You see ppl hate AI builds and also those don’t work well in organized PvP, Engineer at top lvls will never bring that boon spam and will never be wanted for there support, it will be for there AOE, condi spam, CC, etc etc). Oops, another “argument” down.

You also mention another DPS boost for us with Vunerability being stacked when ppl attack Light Aura. You see Vunerability is also a way of support, you know why? Because it’s not just boosting your DPS, is boosting you team mates DPS too. THIS IS SUPPORT. The thing is you only think of support has boon spam, Regen, Heals, Protection, which is not. Heck most meta builds that have support (like ours) don’t give it in from of boons and regen, Blocks, Vunerability Stacks, Reflection, Blinds, this are all support habilities because they affect your allies too in a good way, it helps them.

Really this is just a kitten topic for not having Support (*cof**cof*Shouts *cof**cof*) buffed when Support is already the strongest aspect we have and on par with others if not better.

Yes nerf meditation guard’s heals because they can go get 5 meditations on their skill bar and popping them all for a 10k-12k heal~, because you know popping them all at once is a very wise idea. Popping CoP when you have no Conditions and renewed focus when you don’t really need it! Placing them on a a semi lengthy CD. Spvp wise Bunker guard is still going to be better than medi guard in those scenes just because of the support and healing/bunkering they do is very potent and crucial in holding points. Which is what Spvp is all about competitively. Shouts are fine where they are, they don’t need a change or a buff because they aren’t bad, and they fulfill their roll.

Anyone else Renewed Focus not working with the media traits or is this just a tool bar issue? The only one that seems to effect it for me is the reduced cool down.

Devon.9061:

Anyone else Renewed Focus not working with the media traits or is this just a tool bar issue? The only one that seems to effect it for me is the reduced cool down.

It should pop at the end of Renewed focus, after you do the entire channel.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I stopped reading after the third paragraph and went straight to the tldr, because wall o’ text is a wall.

That being said, why can’t Guardians be Selfish or Supportive? Seems like both are quite viable.

Just because I play a Guardian I have to be forced into support? That mentality goes against one of the driving missions of this game, which is to play how you want.

You should have read all … but a wall of text is a wall of text i know…

Anyway what i said is that guardian is being force to do DPS while is supposed to be a supportive class. I know that every class can become everything but if guardians don’t get something on de support aspect rather then meditation for dps other classes will surclass us in the only aspect we were … “unique”.

At the actual state of the game warriors can stack might faster, give precision, heal, regen, toughness, high damage while guardian have to go or full damage with 0 party support or full support with low damage and STILL LOW PARTY SUPPORT! why!?

G U A R D I A N is supposed to help party… now you can say arenanet want to make all rounded classes, ok! give guardian more offensive abilities but COME ON give us SUPPORT above all… i don’t even know why to play guardian anymore! And it is my main class! When i run dungeons/fractals all what i do is try to do the highest damage while support party with boons and… wall… but what i always got in party is:
elementalist which spam might like hell… and ton of damage
warriors which spam crit/power boosts… and ton of damage
engineers/rangers which spam every boon simply planting turrets/spirits

oh… it is becoming another wall of text… .

it’s really easy to guard people when there are no enemies left to guard them from, afterall it’s pretty hard to fight as a pile of ash.

mPascoal.4258:

quote

1) yes, you are right: other classes get damage and we get sustain. I only want to say that this isn’t a thread against meditation, i like them and i can’t play pvp without them. What i said is that we are getting more and more meditation buff while completely ignored on the support side. It later turn in a “meditation nerf” because to nerf something usually make people watch for something else… the support aspect.

2)About the filed it is not that hard to change something. Let’s say we got the Light Aura… nice, i love it but what if it works so:
Light Aura (5s) : when you get stuck gain 2sec of retailation, on hit you gain 2 sec of regeneration
let’s make things even better:
Light Field + Leap = Light Aura (the one modified above)
Light Field + Blast = AoE Light Aura (^)
Light Filed + Projectile = condition remove (as it is)
You think we would get nothign from these changes? WRONG, guardian is the class which can use light field the more… it is supportive… and so we got the ability to give regen to our allies actually making our “symbol spam” usefull not for the selfish but the party! This would make hammer even better for dungeons run.

3)Vulnerability is a “boost” but you can always fill the boss vuln stack with other classes attacks… so it is actually less usefull in group play and more usefull in solo play.

It’s like talking to a brick wall, you keep saying the same things.
Since sence can’t be put into you, goodbye

Lucentfir.7430:

Devon.9061:

Anyone else Renewed Focus not working with the media traits or is this just a tool bar issue? The only one that seems to effect it for me is the reduced cool down.

It should pop at the end of Renewed focus, after you do the entire channel.

Ok thanks. Im just assuming it a tooltip issue than since its not appearing over the skill I look at it.

mPascoal.4258:

It’s like talking to a brick wall, you keep saying the same things.
Since sence can’t be put into you, goodbye

I like how several countering points have been put in but are either ignored or dismissed altogether.

Let’s take a look at the light aura talk.
Right now, it grants retaliation and inflicts vulnerability when you’re struck (not when you hit). This is a PvP tool, almost totally useless in PvE for both offensive and supportive gameplay (you shouldn’t want to trade blows with NPC meat sacks).

If it would work on hit, vulnerability would still be much better than regeneration.
The claim about vulnerability being better for solo play is completely false. Vulnerability grants a damage boost to every ally so it has a multiplicative effect the more people involved.
Also, reaching efficiently the 25 stack cap is far from easy. There are many other sources, yes, but most of them require specific traits and/or utilities, so giving up other things like direct damage multipliers (almost always prefered for solo play). Unless we’re talking about a organized group or you always play with some engineer friend, you’ll rarely see 25 vulnerability stacks consistently applied in dungeons.
This organized groups won’t bother with a small regeneration source (300 or so, since no way they’re going to bring a Guardian, nor any other class, specced for healing) most of the time, and they always have the option to respec the warrior for perma regen if needed/wanted. On the other hand, vulnerability application on hit would be like a godsend for most PUGs and not-so-organized groups, maybe even for the most optimized ones (allowing them to build on a different way for even higher damage output).
The only place where vulnerability is pointless is zergy content (world bosses and the like), because it will be capped at 25 most of the time, and even there a hammer guardian spamming AoE light auras and providing permaregen would never be used. Why? Because regen stacks in duration and those light fields prevent water (which provide direct heals, and regeneration too in 3 out of 4 cases if i’m not mistaken) and fire (which provide AoE might, and even fury in some ele cases) ones from being blasted. That’s why the hammer itself, even if it provides permaprot (and constant small direct heals if traited for it), is often discouraged for events like tequatl. There are just easier and less problematic sources of permaregen.

I’ll keep insisting: building around meditations is already pointless for dungeons, PvE zerging and WvW zerging. For any of these scenarios, support is the best approach (which doesn’t neccessarilly mean building around shouts and/or healing btw, just about picking the best group utilities for each fight).
It’s not even good for solo PvE because the meditation skillset itself is terrible for general PvE. Obviously, building around support when you’re alone isn’t probably the best choice either.
Meditations are a solo/duo WvW roaming and sPvP (also performing a roamer role) thing. For any other task, there are already much better options, and most of the time these options are closely related to support.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Aeolus.3615:

Nope, good elementalist can full heal, have more passive speen more ways to run out of combat.

Ok guys, before the thread derails let me explain. You are all right but actually only Aeolus got what i said.

The problem with the actual guardian is that while other classes got in the last few months buff and improvements to the supportive side we only got improvements on the dps side; the result? Now we are mediocre at support and not enough at dps… so while before we were “unique” for the support now the only thing we are unique is that kitten WALL only this!

first of all for those who say “guardian isn’t supposed to be supporter” read the description here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/guardian/

then in order to avoid a wall of text i want to “counter” every skil set of guardian then you can tell me where i’m wrong:

consecrations: these are the only “unique” skills of guardian! Wall and Hallowed Ground are the only reason guardian are needed in party but, BUT these are only for certain situations… who will use a Wall in CoF? Then guardians are useless.

meditations: these are supposed to be the “dps” and gives you effects (teleports, burn etc), heals (2k), fury (4sec), all that with reduced cd and in 5x, really?

shouts: support? 3 condi remove on a 24, 28, 48 sec… and… some boons anyone can spam? … these are quite, QUITE good but as the main support aspect of this class them suck if compared to other classes!

signets: nothing to say; selfish and not usefull at all.

weapons: selfish and not usefull at all… but wait we got a 2k heal on bow! so now them are supposed to be “support”… because of those 2k heal… aoe… really… “support”… not useless… not a waste of space… now it is called “support”… nice.

I’m sorry guys if i look a bit aggressive but i can’t believe i started a class like guardian which is turning into a warrior… a mediocre warrior. And all this is going to improve the zerg mentality of the game… less support more zerging… less defensive abilities more teleports in the face of enemies which award you with heals and fury… well i think i’ll roll a warrior then…

WoR is good in CoF
Path 1 : Slave Driver Effigy summon, reflect his fireballs. Final Boss, a few projectiles from his fist slams into the floor, reflect damage up to 50k
Path 2 : Devourer’s Nest. 3 Elites after nest

Vargamonth.2047:

Let’s take a look at the light aura talk.
Right now, it grants retaliation and inflicts vulnerability when you’re struck (not when you hit).

Yes you are right, mistake sorry.

Vargamonth.2047:

Also, reaching efficiently the 25 stack cap is far from easy. Unless we’re talking about a organized group or you always play with some engineer friend, you’ll rarely see 25 vulnerability stacks consistently applied in dungeons.

with my ranger i can solo stack 20 vuln stacks (10 vuln for 13 sec with 8 sec cd and 5+5 with opening strike) so it is basically easy.

Vargamonth.2047:

This organized groups won’t bother with a small regeneration source (300 or so, since no way they’re going to bring a Guardian, nor any other class, specced for healing) most of the time, and they always have the option to respec the warrior for perma regen if needed/wanted.

Actually to have a good regen uptime can make the difference not because of the “big heal” but because of conditions from bosses and/or environment… like SE p3 with fire rings or various AoE (not those which can insta kill you). Also what you said is the PROBLEM… a warrior can spec for perma regen… nice!

Vargamonth.2047:

The only place where vulnerability is pointless is zergy content (world bosses and the like), because it will be capped at 25 most of the time…

emm… maybe i’m wrong but i can’t remember last time i did a dungeon without stack on a wall and burst down the boss in 10 sec… usually during those stack vuln stacks reaches 25 for enough time to bring boss down before end (also remeber that 1 warrior can stack 10 vuln with a single, istant, with aoe healing, shout)

Vargamonth.2047:

(which provide direct heals, and regeneration too in 3 out of 4 cases if i’m not mistaken) and fire (which provide AoE might, and even fury in some ele cases) ones from being blasted. That’s why the hammer itself, even if it provides permaprot (and constant small direct heals if traited for it), is often discouraged for events like tequatl. There are just easier and less problematic sources of permaregen.

water fields provide regen with projectile combos but you are right: water and fire fields are the most important… but guardian only got light fields… and some fire but the most we end spamming light fields to left and right… so why don’t make them… usefull? maybe regen isn’t a good choice … that was an example what if we got “1 sec prot on hit”? it will surely better than vuln!!! Also i don’t remember of heals with hammer…

Vargamonth.2047:

Meditations are a solo/duo WvW roaming and sPvP (also performing a roamer role) thing. For any other task, there are already much better options, and most of the time these options are closely related to support.

Well meditations are surely a good dps boost in every aspect of the game, I can understand you on “not the best for dungeon” but the problem is another one:
what can a guardian bring in dungeons? damage output? yes, but how good is it? average… end! can a guardian support the party? yes, very good… but not enoguh if compared to other classes, not now. So what are we waiting for? We get more dps useless boosts and less support boosts which is the principal reason we are wanted for dungeons… well done!

Guardians are mandatory for high level Fractals. Reflects and Aegis save lives.
They are the only class with access to group wide, reliable condi removal, stability and reflects while still dealing competitive DPS.
No skilled player in PvE uses meditations. No competitive party would ever have 4 people bring personal support skills when the guardian can be offensive and supportive at the same time.
Before you criticize the class, learn to play.

Guardian is already being more than supportive in PvE fights. In trash mob clearing, who is providing party wide blind that allows the entire party to keep their 6th scholar rune option? Also who is providing reflects for lupi, risens, and many more mobs that can easily kill warriors/anything? Also who can clear 6 conditions in an instant for each member of the party at once?

Also when you talk about regeneration in PvE contents it proves that you absolutely know nothing about organized runs. The point of gw2 pve in high level is that you bring reflects and aegis to ensure that none of the member ever get hit, and in certain situations you bring party wide stability so that members can continue to dps without having to dodge.

Go watch cheesy consecrated wall trait killing lupi video in 30 sec and tell me if guardians aren’t being more supportive. Also if you do whirling wrath (gs 2) inside the hit box of boss, you can boost your damage tremendously. Obal has gotten up to 55k, I’ve personally gotten upto 40k. So guardians are in good place other than kittenty shield and really long CD on focus and useless spirit weapon, but we are still doing better than ever.

Btw we have 10~12 seconds of fire field called hollowed ground that provide party wide stability as well. Not enough compare to other classes? Just go look at necro, mesmer and engi. We are doing much better than fine.

Veydar.5017:

Guardians are mandatory for high level Fractals. Reflects and Aegis save lives.
They are the only class with access to group wide, reliable condi removal, stability and reflects while still dealing competitive DPS.
No skilled player in PvE uses meditations. No competitive party would ever have 4 people bring personal support skills when the guardian can be offensive and supportive at the same time.

You, dude, should have read better what I said about “wall being our only usefull tool”.

Veydar.5017:

Before you criticize the class, learn to play.

This is the classic comment which makes me /ignore. thanks.

TheFamster.7806:

quote

Mate you are right on some things … and absolutely wrong on others:

1) blind for pve is… almost useless if you are in those situations:
- against bosses
- clearing trash (to fight against more than 5 mobs result in your blind to not hit everything due to aoe cap and to waste your “scholar rune”)
- fighting in danger situation (like aoe damage over time or like “old tom” fractal when there is nothing you can do to stop venom unless rapidly activate air and… well recover the most possible with regen… but i’ll talk about this later)

so basically the only place where blind is usefull is when clearing <5 mobs.

2)to clear 6 conditions… well you are surely talking about shouts + trooper runes… nice just an example: shouting warrior + tropper = 4 aoe condi removed but… oh wait warrior got 1249232 ways to cleanse personal conditions (and shake it off with 20sec cd)! you want more? eles? just go water to clear aoe conditions and… even mesmers can clear every condition for 6 sec (feedback) and engineers with healing turret (15sec cd) and rangers with healing spring + signet… but we are the best i bet… going 30 point for 3 more condi removals… nice!

3)killing lupi with wall is a kind of exploit and i think arenanet is going to fix it soon™ as for jungle wurm…

4)regeneration is not the best thing for “rushes” ok… ok… i’ll repeat it again: IT WAS A kitten EXAMPLE ONLY AN EXAMPLE E X A M P L E…. E, X, A, M, P, L, E! do you got it? EXAMPLE meaning you can change it whith something else (of similar) to fit you personal preferences… regen, prot or even vigor are MUCH BETTER than that stupid vulnerability! And yes, regeneration is usefull in some circumstances where you get costant damage where for example you “scholar rune” wouldn’t give you the 10% damage because of ambient damage… if you can’t find an example of this… do more dungeons/fractals.

5) when you talk about 10-12 sec fire field you are right, we got it (and i said wall + hallowed to be the best… and only thing we got… but again i have to repeat it every time because is boring to go back and check it…) BUT also here we suck!
We got 10 sec fire field? and? and stability? nice… it is surely got… but you forget eles can stack 18+ might + 20+ sec fury… or that engineers can easily stack 25 might or even warriors with bow + banner blasts can stack ton of might + fury, precision, power, crit, toughness and vitality… but we got 10 sec fire field… then we are fine!

fire field -with- boon duration and stability attached to it, it’s perfect for pretty much any pve encounter.

other classes can stack more might? true, but that’s it. guardian is the ONLY class with RELIABLE (reliable being a keyword) party-wide stability. that alone is more support than anything else in the game pve-wise.

pvp and wvw are kind of obvious i think, nobody bunkers a point like a guardian and good luck stomping anyone around one if you ain’t got no stability left.

also you’re seriously overrating “shake it off”. that skill is a waste of space in 99% of warrior’s builds. i’m going to do so much with a cleanse that cleanses a single condition in this meta, wow. can upgrade to 2 with -kill your own dps- runes, amaze!

Kjeldoran.3849:

2)to clear 6 conditions… well you are surely talking about shouts + trooper runes… nice just an example: shouting warrior + tropper = 4 aoe condi removed but… oh wait warrior got 1249232 ways to cleanse personal conditions (and shake it off with 20sec cd)! you want more? eles? just go water to clear aoe conditions and… even mesmers can clear every condition for 6 sec (feedback) and engineers with healing turret (15sec cd) and rangers with healing spring + signet… but we are the best i bet… going 30 point for 3 more condi removals… nice!

He’s probably talking about traited Virtue of Resolve (20 points in Virtues), which can be recharged with Renewed Focus, and/or Purging Flames, which are the usual guardian condi clears for dungeons.
Engineers with Healing Turret and Mesmers with Mantra of Resolve can help too if needed, but the other examples are quite a bit meh. Trooper runes are a waste in dungeons, both for Warrior (as they’re most of their self condi clears) and Guardians. Elementalist are far from good at this: Swapping to water on a staff build is a HUGE loss in DPS, and /F fresh air builds don’t provide condi clear unless traited for it, which is usually a bad idea too.
On a Guardian, however, 4 points in Virtues are easy to take, because once you get 4 points in Zeal and 5/6 in Radiance, there isn’t a lot more missing (and you probably want 10 points there anyways for Master of Consecrations or Unscatched Contender).

Vargamonth.2047:

He’s probably talking about traited Virtue of Resolve (20 points in Virtues), which can be recharged with Renewed Focus, and/or Purging Flames, which are the usual guardian condi clears for dungeons.
Engineers with Healing Turret and Mesmers with Mantra of Resolve can help too if needed, but the other examples are quite a bit meh. Trooper runes are a waste in dungeons, both for Warrior (as they’re most of their self condi clears) and Guardians. Elementalist are far from good at this: Swapping to water on a staff build is a HUGE loss in DPS, and /F fresh air builds don’t provide condi clear unless traited for it, which is usually a bad idea too.
On a Guardian, however, 4 points in Virtues are easy to take, because once you get 4 points in Zeal and 5/6 in Radiance, there isn’t a lot more missing (and you probably want 10 points there anyways for Master of Consecrations or Unscatched Contender).

Yes, i forget that… but doing so you can clear conditions only 2 times… and with a huge CD that’s far from what other classes can do with a lower cd… let’s say a warrior with shake it off can clear 1 condi every 20(16) sec so it is about 3-5 conditions in the same time we can clear 2 times 3 conditions which is different from 6 time 1 condition and based on situation to have 2x 3condi remover is worse than have 6x 1 condi removers simply because most of times you end wasting a 3 condi cleanse for 1 or max 2 conditions (let’s say SE p3 when you get 25 bleeding stack and nothing else… but that’s just an E X A M P L E, please don’t start again with useless posts (not refered to Vargamonth)).

Also “other example are quite meh” … yes you are right but those examples are about classes which can do that without invest any trait point or even equip!

When i said “elementalist” obviously i was talking about support eles which usually run builds with fury on might blast + condi cleanse and that’s not a dps loss simply because when they have to go water it s because someone is dying so to go water for few seconds and save your party actually increase party dps instead of reduce it. And don’t forget that while in water (if with staf) eles can give your blast the frost aura which is very good.

Kjeldoran.3849:

TheFamster.7806:

quote

1) blind for pve is… almost useless if you are in those situations:
- against bosses
- clearing trash (to fight against more than 5 mobs result in your blind to not hit everything due to aoe cap and to waste your “scholar rune”)
- fighting in danger situation (like aoe damage over time or like “old tom” fractal when there is nothing you can do to stop venom unless rapidly activate air and… well recover the most possible with regen… but i’ll talk about this later)

so basically the only place where blind is usefull is when clearing <5 mobs.

4)regen, prot or even vigor are MUCH BETTER than that stupid vulnerability! And yes, regeneration is usefull in some circumstances where you get costant damage where for example you “scholar rune” wouldn’t give you the 10% damage because of ambient damage… if you can’t find an example of this… do more dungeons/fractals.

That is almost 100% wrong.
1) Blind is amazing as a support ability, 5 out of 50 missing the next attack is still 5 mobs that won’t land their next hit. And as far as I know, blinding is still 10% as effective on a boss so it still serves some utility (albeit a very small amount). Yes, blind is useless during an activity which just hurts you for
4) That is not true at all. Those buffs are only good if you are taking consistent dmg (prot/regen), enduring dmg spikes (prot/regen), or have trouble moving around (vigor). Vulnerability is ALWAYS useful (although I must agree on the zerg comment) because people are always attacking. 1% more dmg means the boss goes down 1% faster, while those other buffs just ensure I can survive a longer fight.

To address your OP. The ability to provide support by the guardian class is still far and away the best out of the 8 classes. However, Guardian dps has been a bit slow for quite a while, and while you may have a vision of a guardian as a support class each individual class needs to perform at a certain level for any content played solo. On top of that, 5 man content is “balanced” around an average dps output from 5 players (in most cases). Buffs to our “selfish” abilities were necessary to assist with the average player maintaining a baseline dps during these situations. We have enough traits that can enhance a good "party support) role without forcing the class into that role. The new traits have enhanced options for solo and group play and have made taking a guardian that much more viable.

Alteraphim.4629:

That is almost 100% wrong.
1) Blind is amazing as a support ability, 5 out of 50 missing the next attack is still 5 mobs that won’t land their next hit. And as far as I know, blinding is still 10% as effective on a boss so it still serves some utility (albeit a very small amount). Yes, blind is useless during an activity which just hurts you for
4) That is not true at all. Those buffs are only good if you are taking consistent dmg (prot/regen), enduring dmg spikes (prot/regen), or have trouble moving around (vigor). Vulnerability is ALWAYS useful (although I must agree on the zerg comment) because people are always attacking. 1% more dmg means the boss goes down 1% faster, while those other buffs just ensure I can survive a longer fight.

1) 45 out of 50 hitting you means… you are dead anyway.
2) 10% chance on boss? so it is basically 9/10 times bosses hit you… they can usually 1 or 2 shot you… so they can overkill you 4 times before a miss… nice!
3) while prot/regen are usefull (not when you are taking spike damage) let’s say more in general “when you are taking any kind of damage” they are still good and not every class can stack them. On the other hand we have “vulnerability” which is an ability spammed by every single class without the need to create a combo but simply using their dps rotation. Since there is a stack cap (25) it is not completely useless but pretty much… especially if you consider you have to be “stuck” to stack (lol) which means you get damage boost when you get hit… obviously against some bosses which can 1-2 shot you… this is like:

me: oh yes! now i can boost my party damage! go boss, hit me!!!
boss: ??? * attack *
me: kitten I’m dead… but my party got 1% more damage… for 8 sec…
party: well let’s ress him and waste those 8 sec of 1% damage bost
me: i’m very usefull, am I?
party: -.-’’ * vote kick *

sorry but that was too hilarious XD

Alteraphim.4629:

To address your OP. The ability to provide support by the guardian class is still far and away the best out of the 8 classes. However, Guardian dps has been a bit slow for quite a while, and while you may have a vision of a guardian as a support class each individual class needs to perform at a certain level for any content played solo. On top of that, 5 man content is “balanced” around an average dps output from 5 players (in most cases). Buffs to our “selfish” abilities were necessary to assist with the average player maintaining a baseline dps during these situations. We have enough traits that can enhance a good "party support) role without forcing the class into that role. The new traits have enhanced options for solo and group play and have made taking a guardian that much more viable.

what we got isn’t a direct “dps increase”, as others stated before only few ppl will use meditations in pve simply because those are more optimized for sPvP… so what we basically got is a “low dps increase for pve content that forces us to use, again, meditations avoiding our support role, which is every update worse, and giving us the illusion of an higher dps”.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Alteraphim.4629:

That is almost 100% wrong.
1) Blind is amazing as a support ability, 5 out of 50 missing the next attack is still 5 mobs that won’t land their next hit. And as far as I know, blinding is still 10% as effective on a boss so it still serves some utility (albeit a very small amount). Yes, blind is useless during an activity which just hurts you for
4) That is not true at all. Those buffs are only good if you are taking consistent dmg (prot/regen), enduring dmg spikes (prot/regen), or have trouble moving around (vigor). Vulnerability is ALWAYS useful (although I must agree on the zerg comment) because people are always attacking. 1% more dmg means the boss goes down 1% faster, while those other buffs just ensure I can survive a longer fight.

1) 45 out of 50 hitting you means… you are dead anyway.
2) 10% chance on boss? so it is basically 9/10 times bosses hit you… they can usually 1 or 2 shot you… so they can overkill you 4 times before a miss… nice!
3) while prot/regen are usefull (not when you are taking spike damage) let’s say more in general “when you are taking any kind of damage” they are still good and not every class can stack them. On the other hand we have “vulnerability” which is an ability spammed by every single class without the need to create a combo but simply using their dps rotation. Since there is a stack cap (25) it is not completely useless but pretty much… especially if you consider you have to be “stuck” to stack (lol) which means you get damage boost when you get hit… obviously against some bosses which can 1-2 shot you… this is like:

me: oh yes! now i can boost my party damage! go boss, hit me!!!
boss: ??? * attack *
me: kitten I’m dead… but my party got 1% more damage… for 8 sec…
party: well let’s ress him and waste those 8 sec of 1% damage bost
me: i’m very usefull, am I?
party: -.-’’ * vote kick *

sorry but that was too hilarious XD

Alteraphim.4629:

To address your OP. The ability to provide support by the guardian class is still far and away the best out of the 8 classes. However, Guardian dps has been a bit slow for quite a while, and while you may have a vision of a guardian as a support class each individual class needs to perform at a certain level for any content played solo. On top of that, 5 man content is “balanced” around an average dps output from 5 players (in most cases). Buffs to our “selfish” abilities were necessary to assist with the average player maintaining a baseline dps during these situations. We have enough traits that can enhance a good "party support) role without forcing the class into that role. The new traits have enhanced options for solo and group play and have made taking a guardian that much more viable.

what we got isn’t a direct “dps increase”, as others stated before only few ppl will use meditations in pve simply because those are more optimized for sPvP… so what we basically got is a “low dps increase for pve content that forces us to use, again, meditations avoiding our support role, which is every update worse, and giving us the illusion of an higher dps”.

what kind of vuln application are u doing that u cant dodge?

meditations are so bad in pve i dont know why u feel forced to take them?

Kjeldoran.3849:

Veydar.5017:

Guardians are mandatory for high level Fractals. Reflects and Aegis save lives.
They are the only class with access to group wide, reliable condi removal, stability and reflects while still dealing competitive DPS.
No skilled player in PvE uses meditations. No competitive party would ever have 4 people bring personal support skills when the guardian can be offensive and supportive at the same time.

You, dude, should have read better what I said about “wall being our only usefull tool”.

Veydar.5017:

Before you criticize the class, learn to play.

This is the classic comment which makes me /ignore. thanks.

I read every post and it simply is not our only useful tool. The fact that you don’t know this shows me you have no clue of Guardians in high level PvE. Hell, you “forgot” about Virtue of Resolve and Purging Flames condi cleanse, how basic is that?
You keep ignoring Aegis while bringing up meditations which are 100% useless in competitive PvE. You mention Warriors as an example of condi cleanse using a significant DPS loss skill (Shake it off).
You think Virtue of Justice blind spam is useless because of the cap I mean that’s just outright [really mean word]. How is blinding 5/7 enemies bad? As soon as the first one is dead you can spam it again…
You consider regeneration useful when in fact its bullkitten and what is that argument about having to stack to apply vuln? Did you unbind dodge or what?
What about stability? No let me guess, every class can bring their own! GG

And what kind of support build are you talking about? Elementalists with staff don’t swap to water in a good party unless its a very specific situation (slowing down Volcanic Boss). They camp fire attunement. There simply is no support ele in competitive PvE.

Veydar.5017:

I read every post and it simply is not our only useful tool. The fact that you don’t know this shows me you have no clue of Guardians in high level PvE.

your beautifull start makes me think “/ingore” everytime i see your comment… but this time i’ll try to explain it again… for the last time please

Veydar.5017:

Hell, you “forgot” about Virtue of Resolve and Purging Flames condi cleanse, how basic is that?

Virtue of Resolve = 84 hp/sec + 1625hp (on activation) + regen (if traited) + condi cleanse (if traited)

why to trait VoR only for Condi Cleanse suck? simply because you waste 3 effects to use a condi cleanse and above all it is a 3 condition cleanse which means you have to wait for 3 conditions unless you want to waste it. So let’s recap, to use VoR without waste something you need:
- damage over players (at least 2k)
- no self heal need (you waste your 100+ hp/sec)
- at least 3 conditions
if you think those 3 are easy to watch at… well i think 90% of your time you will actually waste your VoR…

Purging Flames = very good condi cleanse but… it is static, perfect for stacking bad for roaming even worse if you waste it for less than 3 conditions, useless against bosses with big damage with no conditions… total verdict? occasionally used. If you put it always in your utility slot you are wasing it 70% of times, did you?

Veydar.5017:

You keep ignoring Aegis while bringing up meditations which are 100% useless in competitive PvE. You mention Warriors as an example of condi cleanse using a significant DPS loss skill (Shake it off).

I actually said meditations are USELESS in pve… so i think you have to read again all the thread before posting (do you have concentration problems? xD) Also aegis is… nice for pve, surely you can save you party in few occasions but how many way to spam aegis? 90 sec cd on virtue… and shield (15sec, actually good but it will die fastly… so it is basically a 60 sec cd) and… retreat… with 60 sec cd. So no reliable ways to spam it in long fights but relly usefull in fast one. Also you forget some bossess hit twice or more with their attacks… so useless here.

Veydar.5017:

You think Virtue of Justice blind spam is useless because of the cap I mean that’s just outright [really mean word]. How is blinding 5/7 enemies bad? As soon as the first one is dead you can spam it again…
You consider regeneration useful when in fact its bullkitten and what is that argument about having to stack to apply vuln? Did you unbind dodge or what?

we were talking about blinding on “with blinding you can avoid attacks and keep your hp over 90% to activate rune of scholar”… well i’ll repeat… it is useless this way. Regen is not the best source of healing but it is always good to have it always up, no matter what you personally think about regen. If you are a warrior, ranger or thief in full berserker gear no regen = no over 90% health = no damage boosts = kitten up everything. Not sure of what do you mean with last part of this…

Veydar.5017:

What about stability? No let me guess, every class can bring their own! GG

Actually your auto-answer is quite accurate… forgetting I sayd Hallowed Ground is one of our best skills (one of 2) I have a question for you: how many classes did you tried? Only guard? Well so you will find interesting those updates:
ranger → can stack stab+fury+swift+might (solo)
warrior → can stack stab+swift+fury (solo)
guard → can stack aoe stab
ele → stab + prot (solo)
engineer → no stab (or very low uptime)
thief → no stab (or very low uptime)
necro → very low uptime
mesmer → low uptime but aoe stack
Now that you learned that 4 classes out 8 can autostack stability, hallowed ground + stand your ground is the perfect combination for stab spam because only warr and ranger can stack stab without lose dps

Veydar.5017:

And what kind of support build are you talking about? Elementalists with staff don’t swap to water in a good party unless its a very specific situation (slowing down Volcanic Boss). They camp fire attunement. There simply is no support ele in competitive PvE.

eles which camp an attunement? never played ele i guess… (just to spam might they have to roll they fingers on the board like a train…)

Kjeldoran.3849:

/ignore. thanks.

I think you just summed up this thread perfectly.

Thanks for the entertainment.

/golfclap

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Kjeldoran.3849:

/ignore. thanks.

I think you just summed up this thread perfectly.

Thanks for the entertainment.

/golfclap

Yes, if you delete part of message you can say everything

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Thanks for the thread

no problem dude

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

mPascoal.4258:

It’s like talking to a brick wall, you keep saying the same things.
Since sence can’t be put into you, goodbye

I like how several countering points have been put in but are either ignored or dismissed altogether.

Oh sorry dude i forget your post, so explain me which point i’m ignoring or dismissing? But please before to say again the same things read again the thread or someone (mPascoal) can say “you keep saying the same things”… this is like a vicious circle:

thesis -> people don’t understand thesis -> stupid questions -> you repeat thesis -> then you are accused to say the same things

really guys? Is this a forum or a tribunal? The simple fact that someone isn’t able to formulate a correct sentence with a new and interesting point of the situation makes your answers simply stupid.

A normal debate should be:
A : i think this is X and it should be Y
B : nice, but i think X should be Z instead
C: oh wait i’m sure it should be W
(and this thread was so for the first few messages)

But now it has become:
A : i think this is X and it should be Y
B : i think tha Z should be W
A : what is Z? <repeat point 1>
B : you keep repeat same things!
C : he should l2p
D : do you guys play barbie?
E : what is this? Oh sorry I thought it was my WC…

I just did those example so you will surely understand what i mean… did you?

Kjeldoran.3849:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Thanks for the entertainment

Corrected. You misquoted.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Thanks

Corrected. just read you lasts 4 posts then repeat in your mind:
“I deserve to be ignored, Ideserve to be ignored…”
when you reach 100 times → suprise, ignored.

Veydar.5017:

There simply is no support ele in competitive PvE.

KK, I know this is off-topic but what in the name of all that is Holy is “competitive PvE”?

I mean, isn’t all PvE competitive? It is you and your party versus the A.I. after all.

Just wondering as I have never seen this term used before.

Thanks.

Kjeldoran.3849:

blabla

No sane warrior will bring his own stability. It is a huge DPS loss. No sane elementalist will bring stability, it is a huge DPS loss. I mean, are you actually suggesting that an Ele brings ARMOR OF EARTH? /maniacal laughter (And no, traiting into Earth Embrace doesn’t count either)
No elementalist will swap to water attunement for might stacking unless you are playing Dagger/Focus which is only being used in Fractals. Don’t tell me how to play a class that you obviously only play in extremely casual PvE.
Elementalists nowadays usually start in fire, go straight to Air and then drop the LH. Together with the party this will easily reach 25 stacks. With a focus under certain conditions they might use Comet but it’s not really necessary if the party is organized and everyone uses blast finishers.

And now this is really important. Please write this down. Try to memorize it:
REGENERATION IS USELESS IN HIGH END PVE
Give me ANY boss where regeneration makes a difference. The heal from VoR is useless for your party and useless for yourself. Most bosses will melt in less than 10 seconds. Their attacks can be dodged. That’s it. All you need is DPS, DPS and more DPS.
You know why else VoR can be nice? To get rid of conditions, making people go ooc quicker so you can break that world record. So don’t worry about “wasting that precious” heal. You don’t need it.

And for …… stop dissing Aegis. Why would I spam Aegis? Do I look like a …. button mashing …? I use Aegis when I see the Ele channeling Ice Bow 4, when someone runs out of dodges vs Archdiviner and informs me of it in Teamspeak. I use it to mitigate damage in certain instances (especially Fractals 50) where an Aegis is equivalent to a heal of 6k+ HP.

Anyhow, I had a great time in this thread. I guess it’s time to go. Bye bye.

@Michaeas Magister.1589
By competitive PvE I mean organized full berserker groups with Best in Slot gear running meta builds going for a time that is not far off common world records. If it takes your group 10 minutes to do CM P1, even if the run is smooth and everyone is having a great time, I wouldn’t consider it competitive.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Veydar.5017:

There simply is no support ele in competitive PvE.

KK, I know this is off-topic but what in the name of all that is Holy is “competitive PvE”?

I mean, isn’t all PvE competitive? It is you and your party versus the A.I. after all.

Just wondering as I have never seen this term used before.

Thanks.

Competitive PvE is a joke, to be honest. The game’s AI isn’t intelligent enough for there to be any genuine competition.

Veydar.5017:

another useless answer

thanks gods you decide to leave thise thread, thank you. For the next time you want to make people waste their time with you simply send them you skype contact or facebook one, gw2 forum is not the place where ONLY provoke people… really.

Just few things to not go oot:
1) i said only warrior and ranger can bring stab without waste dps, so i don’t know what are you talking about
2) eles obviously use more attunement and it is not my fault if you play only fire, also for your said “combo” you need to go air so please stop kitten up yourself
3)any boss where regen is usefull? Old Tom from fractals when you have to take in your face aoe damage and you can bring you hp bar over 90%… just an example.
4)“all you need is dps dps dps”… no comment
5)you have surely problems reading… i said aegis is good when you can predict attacks but when there are mobs hitting twice or more times in a row it is useless like, if not more, your posts.
6)competitive pve is, really, a joke and if you really judge players for the time they spend to complete cof, cm or whatever you surely have problems… not with me but the community… you should be one of those “p1 only zerk run 100k ap gear check or kick” … really I laugh hard at you.

no please be constructive or leave, ty.

How does a warrior bring stability without losing dps?
Elementalists max dps might rotation is fire→air→ LH. No water attunement that’s what I was talking about. L2p scrub.
I don’t PUG.
Regeneration for old tom is pretty useless. Earth ele/untraited warden burst down. You’re going to lose scholar almost as soon.
I am constructive, you’re just really bad.

Kjeldoran.3849:

gw2 forum is not the place where provoke people… really.

[…]

6)competitive pve is, really, a joke and if you really judge players for the time they spend to complete cof, cm or whatever you surely have problems… not with me but the community… you should be one of those “p1 only zerk run 100k ap gear check or kick” … really I laugh hard at you.

no please be constructive or leave, ty.

Veydar.5017:

@Michaeas Magister.1589
By competitive PvE I mean organized full berserker groups with Best in Slot gear running meta builds going for a time that is not far off common world records. If it takes your group 10 minutes to do CM P1, even if the run is smooth and everyone is having a great time, I wouldn’t consider it competitive.

So, it’s a fancy term for speed-clearing dungeons. KK.

Thanks.

No Pulse.2967:

Kjeldoran.3849:

gw2 forum is not the place where provoke people… really.

[…]

6)competitive pve is, really, a joke and if you really judge players for the time they spend to complete cof, cm or whatever you surely have problems… not with me but the community… you should be one of those “p1 only zerk run 100k ap gear check or kick” … really I laugh hard at you.

no please be constructive or leave, ty.

Arrrr you are right XD but you miss previous 5 points… and… that’s a provocation? I think that’s more a statement of something which really happen in game. Actually the game is really flodded with such people which only want to provoke you… yes i should add ONLY want… well i’ll correct my previous post, thanks.