Guild Wars 2

Yea or Nay?

The way I see it running meditations is selfish to a degree. You aren’t bringing the group utility of PoV or AR. The fury can feel like over kill when running it with Right-Hand Strength and the DPS boost nigh unnoticeable due to fury’s short duration.

On the other hand you could boost your burst and how much are PoV and AR needed now anyways. Now class in PvE should have heavy issues with condis now and you can always substitute CoP for WoR and SYG when needed.

Right now I am running 10 25 30 5 0. So far I find it good on burst but not insanely better than 10 30 0 30 0. Personally I could go either way.

Edit:

Forgot to note that if you use a GS you can get periodic group cleansing (to a degree) done with you Whirling Wrath + Symbol of Wrath. Ray of Judgement plays into this too but is too random.

TheGuy.3568:

Yea or Nay?

The way I see it running meditations is selfish to a degree. You aren’t bringing the group utility of PoV or AR. The fury can feel like over kill when running it with Right-Hand Strength and the DPS boost nigh unnoticeable due to fury’s short duration.

On the other hand you could boost your burst and how much are PoV and AR needed now anyways. Now class in PvE should have heavy issues with condis now and you can always substitute CoP for WoR and SYG when needed.

Right now I am running 10 25 30 5 0. So far I find it good on burst but not insanely better than 10 30 0 30 0. Personally I could go either way.

If you feel you are being selfish then use merciful intervention. You also have weapons that remove conditions: Focus and the under appreciated Torch which has a very good condition removal. If you are using radiance then you again assist the party with providing aoe blinds with virtue of justice.

There are choices, just don’t limit yourself. Try new things and you may find something you really like.

Nay, mostly because the fury from focused mind is waaaay too short for anything PvE related that ins’t doing your daily, also fury is the same as other boons in PvE, either trait for group-wide boons or don’t trait at all.
Oh, purging flames has been covering all my condition removing needs now, i’m even rolling unscathed every now and then instead of absolute resolution.

Honestly, fury isn’t the reason to use Mediations. It’s for the burst healing, and in PvE, it works rather well. If you’re going to be stacking your group though, you might get more benefit out of AH.

I personally never liked AH, I always found the burst healing from MF/Mediations so much more reliable.

TheGuy.3568:

Right now I am running 10 25 30 5 0. So far I find it good on burst but not insanely

This isn’t a dungeon build right? Looks like some kind of World Boss type setup.
For dungeons, the Meditations suck because you have to trait 20 into Valor if you want access to that pitiful fury amount. The important trait lines are 10 in honor for shouts, 10 in virtues for consecrations, 15 in Radiance for blind spam and the other points are generally spent to aid in condi removal and dps. I feel like what you lose to gain the fury is crap.

Having said that, I will use smite condition if I need the extra condi removal. For that 2nd to last boss in Arah P2 I bring Purging Flames, Smite Condition, and Wall of Reflect. Smite Condition is a bit of a selfish skill, but I always seem to be a bleed magnet on that fight. So one Meditation isn’t bad like SC with its small cooldown for trash runs and such(also requires no traiting and is instant now!). But to invest 20 points into that line is detrimental in my eyes for dungeons.(WvW Solo Roaming Bursting should be fun though)

@Aza Technically I will do group blinds no mattr the build I run because I like blind Exposure too much in PvE. MI isn’t going to be that useful in a zerk build but kitten you never know. I do not feel limited but there are some clear trade offs in terms of boon support.

@Oxxy that would be incorrect burst wise it does factor. If you are GS/Sword you can pulls off your burst combo that quick. WRR with judges. Additionally the 30% crit damage factors (quite a bit actually due to traits having relatively cheap crit damage investment in stat optimization). The fury itself as far as traiting it for the group there is no good way to do it. Even if you did it would be pointless because it is so short it would really only help in any real way your burst and your burst alone. If you are running purging flames why go more than 10 points into virtues?

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

Edit 2:
More like question actually. Why go down virtues at all? Going into Honor makes sense to me since you can run a shout build around it but mostly because elusive power sits right there to make up for some of the DPS loss. Playing the smart dodger you can have another 10% damage increase all the time. Virtues on the other hand with the exception of AR (actually including AR) seems extremely wasteful stat and utility wise. There is very little there beside CD reductions on Consecrations that seems worth specing into (and even that is heaviliy ymmv).

TheGuy.3568:

@Aza Technically I will do group blinds no mattr the build I run because I like blind Exposure too much in PvE. MI isn’t going to be that useful in a zerk build but kitten you never know. I do not feel limited but there are some clear trade offs in terms of boon support.

@Oxxy that would be incorrect burst wise it does factor. If you are GS/Sword you can pulls off your burst combo that quick. WRR with judges. Additionally the 30% crit damage factors (quite a bit actually due to traits having relatively cheap crit damage investment in stat optimization). The fury itself as far as traiting it for the group there is no good way to do it. Even if you did it would be pointless because it is so short it would really only help in any real way your burst and your burst alone. If you are running purging flames why go more than 10 points into virtues?

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

Try using torch for condition removal on allies.

If you want my opinion, you have to consider fury a added bonus. Monk’s focus is the real reason to take meditations. I feel it fits more of a pvp environment than a pve one, but it can be used in both.

Consecrations are very good for support too. Especially with the changes. You can use shielded mind as your group stun breaker and hallowed ground for group stability. Like Like someone mentioned, purging flames is great too.

TheGuy.3568:

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

10/30/0/10/20 is great dps. Running Sword Focus/GS I get RHS which give 15% crit chance, 10% damage on enemies with conditions, 10% damage vs burning enemies, 5% extra damage with swords, apply vulnerability with blinds, and all while still bringing what makes a Guardian special. Nothing important is gained in Valor in my eyes. Extra crit damage is generally taken care of with food and Banner of Dis. If you are going into valor for just the crit damage modifier alone, then that is a poor choice IMO.

On the burst combo:
If your group doesn’t already provides fury (either by some ele running 30/0/0/0/0, ranger warhorn or warrior spamming FGJ/dropping war banner) it is likely that any fight will take a fair amount of time, and since the fury duration is pretty low while most meditations cooldowns are somewhat high (aside from smite condition), you’d be wasting trait points since they could’ve been better spent somewhere else (5 group-wide static might stacks from empowering might is a better DPS boost to your group than traiting meditations).
Ah, the general mindset for traiting into group boons is something like this: If your class can’t trait into group-wide, let’s say, fury (only eles can do that if i’m not mistaken) you shouldn’t waste points trying to get it for yourself and yourself only.
As for my virtues points… i wanted the bonus damage per boon, and i had nothing better to trait with my current set up. Plus, if i really need the extra condition removal i can put absolute resolution on anytime i want.

Edit – Cats, what do you run on honor? Aria?

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheGuy.3568:

Edit:
@Cat Has Ducks Not true. Actually in almost all dungeon builds you should be trying to maximize DPS while retaining group support if needed. Theoretically any dungeon like COF I would run that build just for the increased damage which is noticeable due to the 30 crit damage you get out of it (see above). If you are going to put points in Virtue and Honor then you have to put them there realizing the opportunity cost in reference to your DPS. The reason you have to put them there has to be so good you are willing to kitten your DPS in effect (something as i said I wonder is really worth it in a competent group with 1 free utility spot for support skills). Remember you can trade out utilities up to 2 slots because smite conditions is on a low CD.

10/30/0/10/20 is great dps. Running Sword Focus/GS I get RHS which give 15% crit chance, 10% damage on enemies with conditions, 10% damage vs burning enemies, 5% extra damage with swords, apply vulnerability with blinds, and all while still bringing what makes a Guardian special. Nothing important is gained in Valor in my eyes. Extra crit damage is generally taken care of with food and Banner of Dis. If you are going into valor for just the crit damage modifier alone, then that is a poor choice IMO.

Ok DPS but far from great. See edit 2 in my last post for why Virtue is a no no in my builds. 10 30 0 30 0 is much better DPS in a support build. All the things you highlight run into a DPS build no matter hoe you spec the lower half. Crit damage (unlike condtion duration) is un capped. So it is never ever a negative. Whatever the possible warrior bring you are just adding to it at 30% which is sizable.

group support much like DPS much maximized but not above DPS unless you are trying to get carried. Bringing more support than needed at the cost of DPS is kind of like running…..not running zerker gear in PvE. Not that you have to run zerker I am not one of those guys.

Oxxy.7068:

Edit – Cats, what do you run on honor? Aria?

Yes sir. For Time Warps or keeping my warrior friends from breaking a hundred blades, I block all the time with Retreat. The cool down reduction is pro for maximizing my blocks.(as well as power resing if someone gets sloppy in lupi)

TheGuy.3568:

group support much like DPS much maximized but not above DPS unless you are trying to get carried. s.

If you think that build is a “get carried type build” then I really am done talking about this subject.

Yeah, i was thinking about that was well (maximizing my aegis pop), thanks for the awnser.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheGuy.3568:

group support much like DPS much maximized but not above DPS unless you are trying to get carried. s.

If you think that build is a “get carried type build” then I really am done talking about this subject.

Didn’t say that. So do not put word in my mouth. I just pointed out an essential fact to running anything which is DPS should be maximized. If that hurt your feelings in some way or offended you that is your issue and not mine. Not like what I said isn’t true. It is commonly know that too many guardians run too much support. I did ask in the OP how much support is actually necessary? The point of this topic is to discuss that too. It might offend some as their builds get picked apart if they suggest them but so are the ones I am running.

Oxxy.7068:

On the burst combo:
If your group doesn’t already provides fury (either by some ele running 30/0/0/0/0, ranger warhorn or warrior spamming FGJ/dropping war banner) it is likely that any fight will take a fair amount of time, and since the fury duration is pretty low while most meditations cooldowns are somewhat high (aside from smite condition), you’d be wasting trait points since they could’ve been better spent somewhere else (5 group-wide static might stacks from empowering might is a better DPS boost to your group than traiting meditations).
Ah, the general mindset for traiting into group boons is something like this: If your class can’t trait into group-wide, let’s say, fury (only eles can do that if i’m not mistaken) you shouldn’t waste points trying to get it for yourself and yourself only.
As for my virtues points… i wanted the bonus damage per boon, and i had nothing better to trait with my current set up. Plus, if i really need the extra condition removal i can put absolute resolution on anytime i want.

Edit – Cats, what do you run on honor? Aria?

Well…..about empowering might. 5 seconds 1 stacks each with lucky hits your looking at maintaining without dodging or moving like 304 stacks. 35 power and condi damage each that’s like 140 power and condi damage (which is actually pretty good). thier issue is though with fire fields and the numerous better and longer might stacks out there is it a major contributing factor? Honestly not really but I still use it some times in 10 30 0 30 0. The reduced CD on my GS spin and blind is going to boost DPS more than that is.

Damage per boon is at 1% Elusive power 10% can be maintained the entire fight by simply playing well and using your dodges. If you use any sort of food that does stat conversion for power or precision they use Toughness and Vitality. Virtues brings nothing to that either. PoV still has better condi management overall due CDs and better DPS built into the line.

wanting to buy party condition removal and consecrations traiting

PoV is not always better than virtues because many times in organised groups (and sometimes even pugs) you are having 1-2 consecrations/spirit shield on your bar, which makes it far less worth it to take PoV. also, with purging flames buff, virtues line is better than PoV for condi cleansing now.

stat conversion foods are suboptimal except in AC.

also, symbol of persistence is better for GS DPS (definitely if you’re doing a proper rotation with S/F as well) than 2h mastery, which is more of a utility trait for the control skills on hammer.

if you’re running around in open world, yay. the extra mobility with JI paired with GS and s/f is always a nic change of pace.

if you’re doing group content, especially dungeons, than meditations are the last thing on your mind.

and personal side track – testing it a bit, the short duration of the fury you get is not that enticing to me. meditations you’ll use to cleanse conditions, to heal mainly, and it’s hard to guarantee you’ll ahv eburst skills up ready for that small window. apart from JI, which many open with, which can be nice.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

wanting to buy party condition removal and consecrations traiting

PoV is not always better than virtues because many times in organised groups (and sometimes even pugs) you are having 1-2 consecrations/spirit shield on your bar, which makes it far less worth it to take PoV. also, with purging flames buff, virtues line is better than PoV for condi cleansing now.

stat conversion foods are suboptimal except in AC.

also, symbol of persistence is better for GS DPS (definitely if you’re doing a proper rotation with S/F as well) than 2h mastery, which is more of a utility trait for the control skills on hammer.

Well the truth is is you could run with more condi cleanse in virtue but as I said overkill support for less is DPS is a waist.

Purging flames is good very good. At the same time the big picture is lost when you compare it to PoV like that. First off if you are running shouts it means you are going to give boons to the party. On top of that you have the conversion. Further more it is better in fights where you only need to clear one or 2 conditions. Light field focus are helping in that area as are other parts of other builds.

About the lines not going to rehash old post but if you read above I can tell you clearly bang for your buck virtues is not better than honor not even by a long shot. What you give up to go virtues is a kitten load of offense for marginally better condi management. It simply is not worth it.

Writ of persistence symbols last 2 seconds longer. Duration on sword symbol is 4 seconds. Reduced CD is 20% to each skill on the bar. Do I want a symbol to last 4 seconds longer or a CD reduction on all my DPS moves including my blind for vulnerability stacks. The loss in DPS between the 2 in a proper rotation is going to be with the symbol trait. On another not it is not a field I like to just sit there. Light field have tendency to get in the way in party. So personally I use to for the extra condi and DPS but I don’t want it up all the time just to provide retaliation. The increased DPs is nonexistent is 2 second duration increase 4 second CD decrease will end up in a net gain to DPS on the cool down reduction.

You got it backwards btw about hammer you want the symbol up time.

This keeps coming up but Virtues is a very lackluster line. The support you get is not good enough to make up for the loss in DPS and stats. Consecration do not have to be traited to be effective. Much like Avenger it is fine on its own. What you end up losing chasing after that line is just ridiculous.

There is another issue where guardians feel like they are the only class with any sort of condi management. Let me inform you we are not (read the patch notes). Further more if there are 2 and each is managing condi then there is no need for the over kill on condition management.

Tbh there is barely any need for traiting for condi management in the first place. Light fields, focus, smart dodging, and just running purging flames un traited should be more than enough.

akamon.2769:

if you’re running around in open world, yay. the extra mobility with JI paired with GS and s/f is always a nic change of pace.

if you’re doing group content, especially dungeons, than meditations are the last thing on your mind.

and personal side track – testing it a bit, the short duration of the fury you get is not that enticing to me. meditations you’ll use to cleanse conditions, to heal mainly, and it’s hard to guarantee you’ll ahv eburst skills up ready for that small window. apart from JI, which many open with, which can be nice.

Ahh he original topic. Well I will put it like this. It is good but too glassy for me in dungeons. The fury IMHO is just enough to get your burst off (as for sword most of the DPS is coming for auto attack as it is). That being said the duration is just too lack luster. And your right i found myself using my meditations to heal too often (though with the extra toughness and dodging I though it would not be an issue but it was).

The dps though is no good but it is easy to over do it. the support from honor isn’t worth giving up and it makes up for some of the dps loss with elusive power.

No, not traiting for consecrations is a stupid idea in general. Pure of Voice is worse than absolute resolution/purging because much of the time you’re running wall + 2 shouts, and if you run with an ele or two you definitely want a fire field, so hallowed + purging are often used. Purging is also on a short 28s CD.

Virtues also has a fairly strong damage modifier if you take 25 points in it. 25 honour is better (10%), but that build lacks condition removal and prevents you from taking 30 radiance (though that isn’t as much of a problem). You’re right about other classes (specifically mesmers) being equally/more capable than guardians at handling group condi removal now, but if you PUG/run in organised groups where your role is condition removal then I would rate it pretty high as one of our utilities.