Guild Wars 2

Glacial heart, as it stands, is a near-useless, unreliable, gimmicky chill “access” for hammer guardians, we all know this, and we all know Arena-net tries to toy around with this each patches to make it more juicy, although so far, has not succeeded in doing so, as a result..

Here’s my input on what the trait could be changed into; the trait would still be a master tier in the valor trait, but the effect would be as such:

-
Glacial Heart
Your Virtue of Justice no longer burns the target, applying chill instead
-

This would change Virtue of Justice from:
-
Virtue of Justice

Virtue: Chill foes with every fifth attack.
Activate: You and your allies inflict chill on the next attack

Chill (passive effect): 1 sec
Chill (active effect): 3 sec
-

Obviously the point here would be to change VoJ from a slight damage increase through a condition to a controlled, no-damage snare.

Also, considering “Searing Flames” gets buffed next patch from a 20 second ICD to a 10 seconds ICD, an additional change to it could be as follow:

-
Searing Flames
When you apply burning or chill to a foe, remove a boon (10 sec ICD)
-

Other traits that affect VoJ in a way could also be adjusted to reflect the change, should you use Glacial Heart.

I feel these 2 changes could be interesting changes to these traits, but what are your thoughts?

that would be amazingly interesting to play with. would it be too strong though? we can apply burning like no other and while burning can hit hard, it usually won’t coming from most Guards. though chill itself can be excruciatingly deblitating (is that the word?) since it can happen so often.

i would love it obviously, lol. at the same time, we’d have to deal with it from enemy Guardians running it as well. heh.

now imagine permeating wrath —> permeating chill. and with the new change with Supreme Justice. that’ll be a 1s AoE chill every 3 hits.

The trait wouldn’t change all burning to chill, it would only affect VoJ, and having access to a 1 sec chill every 3 hits through supreme justice would make it worth it, considering you’d have to, after all, spend 30 points in the traitline that is all about virtues.

Keep in mind that the active on VoJ is largely used as a blind to avoid a stun, or other critical attacks, aswell as might stacking in PvE trash-clearing, you would essentially be giving up minimal (but not insignificant!) damage for more control.

I’ve thought on something like this for a long time. I don’t think, however, it should remain in Valor.

This change feels mainly PvP oriented (it could be used for some weird anchoring in PvE, but I don’t feel it specially gamechanging), with Valor already being quite a powerful traitline for this game mode.
A lot of offensive PvP guardian builds heavily invest in valor for meditations. Specs like x/30/30/x/x hit like a truck, so giving them the ability to reliably stick to their oponents could be OP.

IMHO it should be a master Zeal trait. This way, it would be impossible to have it on the previous build, forcing the guardian to give up either sustain or damage.

Another option could be a Grandmaster Zeal trait “VoJ and utility skills apply chill istead of burning”. This would allow using tools like Judges Intervention and Purging Flames as long lasting chill sources without boosting torch into a monster.

Zeal traitline should be slighty modified in any case in order to make this kind of traits appealing. The way it is now, with all those symbol traits as minors, it feels a waste to invest on.

Reduce the CD on it, and give it 5% more damage on hammer.

Vargamonth.2047:

I’ve thought on something like this for a long time. I don’t think, however, it should remain in Valor.

This change feels mainly PvP oriented (it could be used for some weird anchoring in PvE, but I don’t feel it specially gamechanging), with Valor already being quite a powerful traitline for this game mode.
A lot of offensive PvP guardian builds heavily invest in valor for meditations. Specs like x/30/30/x/x hit like a truck, so giving them the ability to reliably stick to their oponents could be OP.

IMHO it should be a master Zeal trait. This way, it would be impossible to have it on the previous build, forcing the guardian to give up either sustain or damage.

Another option could be a Grandmaster Zeal trait “VoJ and utility skills apply chill istead of burning”. This would allow using tools like Judges Intervention and Purging Flames as long lasting chill sources without boosting torch into a monster.

Zeal traitline should be slighty modified in any case in order to make this kind of traits appealing. The way it is now, with all those symbol traits as minors, it feels a waste to invest on.

I was thinking of suggesting moving it into zeal, but if you think about it, keeping it in valor is best – especially for a meditation guardian, as it will have you make a choice between fury or chill access, having it in zeal would sadly make this skill simply not used, even if introduced ingame with my suggestion.
If anything, I could see the trait being moved to Radiance, and switching place with “shimmering defense”.

But no, I whole heartedly diagree on your suggestion of having a grandmaster trait changing all of our burning to chill, we would have way too easy of an access to chill with very little effort, by having Glacial Heart only affect VoJ, you put an interesting spin on VoJ and add a little more (much needed if offensive) snare to the guardian, while not simply adding said snare with no cost, since chill is such a dangerous snare.

Harbinger.8637:

Reduce the CD on it, and give it 5% more damage on hammer.

This!

Make it 10% so its on par with the rest of the damage traits we have in our weapons. 8s icd and 2s duration.

It’s fine. More base HPs would give us the freedom to spec into crit builds.

Svarty.8019:

It’s fine. More base HPs would give us the freedom to spec into crit builds.

In what way is a random, single target cc on an aoe weapon fine? This is an honest question, please explain it to me.

And we dont need more hp in crit builds, i run frontline stormtrooper with 52% crit chance and constantly im the last one to go down in zerg battles with 18k hp.

Would be amazing but “renewed justice + glacial heart = op broken level in zergs”

Brutaly.6257:

Svarty.8019:

It’s fine. More base HPs would give us the freedom to spec into crit builds.

In what way is a random, single target cc on an aoe weapon fine? This is an honest question, please explain it to me.

And we dont need more hp in crit builds, i run frontline stormtrooper with 52% crit chance and constantly im the last one to go down in zerg battles with 18k hp.

The chill’s single target? Because the damage isn’t.

I think it is too overpowered.

There is too much passive -66% speed debuff, passive skill cooldown increased by 66%.

Too overpowered as a passive trait. If this trait gets implemented, it is grandmaster level, probably even higher.

Kurieg.4158:

Brutaly.6257:

Svarty.8019:

It’s fine. More base HPs would give us the freedom to spec into crit builds.

In what way is a random, single target cc on an aoe weapon fine? This is an honest question, please explain it to me.

And we dont need more hp in crit builds, i run frontline stormtrooper with 52% crit chance and constantly im the last one to go down in zerg battles with 18k hp.

The chill’s single target? Because the damage isn’t.

I used in wvw and never seen the cc hit more than one even though the damage seem to hit multiple targets. I might have had bad luck though, removed or the small aoe might have prevented it., i have just played with it for 60-90 minutes and removed it since a cc based on luck and that cant be timed is just awful, if i need a chill there are better options in sigils which i have control over.

it really doesnt matter if its aoe and i missed it, its not controllable and there are better options.

I love the idea but unfortunately would be hella OP. I think the idea bouncing around the forums of decreasing CD and 5-10% more damage for hammer is more realistic and I could see some use for it.
Guards do need some soft CC tho, getting kited like a mofo ain’t fun

Vargamonth.2047:

I’ve thought on something like this for a long time. I don’t think, however, it should remain in Valor.

This change feels mainly PvP oriented (it could be used for some weird anchoring in PvE, but I don’t feel it specially gamechanging), with Valor already being quite a powerful traitline for this game mode.
A lot of offensive PvP guardian builds heavily invest in valor for meditations. Specs like x/30/30/x/x hit like a truck, so giving them the ability to reliably stick to their oponents could be OP.

IMHO it should be a master Zeal trait. This way, it would be impossible to have it on the previous build, forcing the guardian to give up either sustain or damage.

Another option could be a Grandmaster Zeal trait “VoJ and utility skills apply chill istead of burning”. This would allow using tools like Judges Intervention and Purging Flames as long lasting chill sources without boosting torch into a monster.

Zeal traitline should be slighty modified in any case in order to make this kind of traits appealing. The way it is now, with all those symbol traits as minors, it feels a waste to invest on.

A melee class being able to keep targets in range is OP? Are you serious?

So I guess warrior’s cripple/root spam, thieves cripple/stealth spam, ranger cripple/root spam is OP as well? lulllzzzzz….

Dynnen.6405:

A melee class being able to keep targets in range is OP? Are you serious?

I didn’t say that; it makes complete sense for guardians to have a tool like this
In fact, I went even further and suggested a way to apply fairly long lasting chills on JI and Purging Flames.

What a I think could be OP is being able to have it on a x/30/30/x/x build, which actually has kitten good damage/sustain numbers in soldiers and hits like a truck in berzerkers.
The build is fairly balanced right now, relying on allies to snare enemies or on heavy bursts when on its own. Being granted with a sticking tool (which I would pick over fury on meditatios every single day) is maybe the last step on creating a Hambow 2.0.

Guardian burst is so obvious that without hard CC it could never be a Hambow 2.0…

Red.3572:

Guardian burst is so obvious that without hard CC it could never be a Hambow 2.0…

With the proposed change Guardian damage would not be mainly burst based anymore. That’s the problem.

Think on a x/30/30/x/x Sw/T Sc/Fc.
A full sword chain is enough to proc a chill (and also deal huge damage), which makes the next one fairly easy to land, so it’s almost a must for your enemy to evade it.
The gap opened by the dodge roll, which is currently enough to force you into the scepter, can be cut now just using cleansing flame, which can hit 10 times and proc chill twice, granting you melee range again.
Your enemy pretty much needs to evade twice to get out of melee and not be demolished by sword autos, while you still have fairly decent gap closers to counter gap openers and some resources, including your own evades, to avoid being cced or slowed.
This kind of pressure which forces your enemy to burn dodge rolls makes a lot easier for you to connect a burst or hard hits like zealots fire, or even better, to stay in melee and eat alive pretty much everyone just with autoattaks.

The current build is indeed lackluster on a 1v1 enviroment against someone who knows how it works (there are some specs however that still don’t have an easy time avoiding the burst because they lack invul frames and instant cleanses), but the damage it can dish out, if unnoticed on a teamight or aided by ally cc, is insane.

As happened with necromancers, in order to strengthen the build when on its own, the change could improve up to OP level something that’s currently competitive but might need specific team setups to shine.
That’s why I suggest Zeal (a modified one indeed, one that gets rid of those symbol minors, merge them into a master, and put there something not only useful for a few specific builds), in order to allow a build that could be stronger for soloQ and/or WvW roaming, without boosting a fairly competitive existing one.

I see what you’re saying but your example is essentially in a vacuum. These builds (0/30/30/5/5 meditations) have little sustain and are literally all attack.

The damage is high for sure (crazy, if you land a full burst sequence), but the guards low HP means if they aren’t running full-glass, most classes will survive the burst and eventually melt you with some BS like condi spam, warrior hulk-smash-my-HP-always-goes-up, stealth/evade spam and more besides.

If you go full glass your burst is epic but if they mitigate any of it and survive, you’ll still eventually drop unless it’s a non-Engi bunker.

Basic auto pressure on it’s own, no matter how much of it you land (thanks to chilled) isn’t enough to kill most targets before they can kill you because as soon as you stray too far away from heavy investment in Valour/Honour and stop reserving focus for defence on 1 hander specs, sustain drops off the face of the earth. Also if VoJ’s proc turns into a ‘root’ you actually lose the extra pressure you would have gotten from the burning.

From an SPvP stand-point Med’s 1-hander Burst guard is insanely fun to play, but it’s just not that useful. As a roamer it’s too slow. As a team-fight character, it’s weaker than other class options, and even other Guard builds! Like say the 0/5/30/30/5 hammer/staff shout build or a symbol variant is like 5 times more useful. Even then you’d still probably prefer a Necro there as that class is ridiculous.

I liked your idea, but it should only affect the passive or add only 1 sec to active. That will be a trade off, lose dps (burning) but gain enemy control.

Red.3572:

Basic auto pressure on it’s own, no matter how much of it you land (thanks to chilled) isn’t enough to kill most targets before they can kill you because as soon as you stray too far away from heavy investment in Valour/Honour and stop reserving focus for defence on 1 hander specs, sustain drops off the face of the earth. Also if VoJ’s proc turns into a ‘root’ you actually lose the extra pressure you would have gotten from the burning.

From an SPvP stand-point Med’s 1-hander Burst guard is insanely fun to play, but it’s just not that useful. As a roamer it’s too slow. As a team-fight character, it’s weaker than other class options, and even other Guard builds! Like say the 0/5/30/30/5 hammer/staff shout build or a symbol variant is like 5 times more useful. Even then you’d still probably prefer a Necro there as that class is ridiculous.

Think on a 20/10/30/5/5 with lyssa runes.
It still keeps the sustain of a x/x/30/5/5 medi build and it’s on a decent 46% base crit chance (up to 66% triggering fury with focused mind), 50% crit damage and over 2k power.
The chill goes up to 1.3 secods thank to runes and points in zeal and can still benefit a lot from fiery wrath if you pair the sword with a torch.

It loses only raw damage.
If you chose power / crit damage runes (like 5 scholar + 1 divinity) over precision ones, the 0/30/30/5/5 build would be ahead just by 20% crit chance (which you can get eventually from focused mind), 10% raw damage from radiant power (which you now again can get eventually from fiery wrath) and 10% crit damage + another raw 5% (likely 10% after decemper patch) which you can’t cover at all.
I think it would be even more solid than a 0/30/30/5/5 with the suggested frozen heart in Valor.

Allocating the trait in zeal just prevents coupling it with a 10/30/30/0/0, which is squishier but the one that can get the really crazy damage numbers and melt people when aided by allies.

The sustain on any x/x/30/5/5 build isn’t really that great anyway compared to other classes these days, thanks to various buffs. Used to be sufficient but now I’d definitely class them as ‘low sustain’.

Also the fundamental issue with Focused Mind is the duration and thus timing of the Fury. To purposely make use of it, you have to burn probably JI or Smite Condition. It isn’t really reliable imo. Smite is fine but then with that use you can’t then use it to compound a burst during a channel (since you burnt it for the fury). JI is a teleport and one of your break stuns, which in warrior/necro land are pretty precious. Just don’t think Focused Mind is worth it. Inner Fire is way better anyway.

I see what you’re doing with that build and it’s interesting but outside of using Greatsword, which I’m not really fond of at all, it doesn’t really offer anything over straight up 30 Radiance. With the symbol and root vulnerability, it’s really a hammer/scepter line imo, yet most of the key symbol traits are in honour. While Radiance 15 isn’t massively useful in SPvP, Rad 20 gives you access to 20% burning duration/Inner Fire/Blind Exposure combinations. At a stretch there’s also Powerful Blades and the signet traits. Next update also Searing Flames (doubt it’ll get much use tbh. If it mechanically functions like it does now). I’d almost go as far as saying the proposed buffs make Radiance even better and will ensure it’s still far more useful than Zeal. Oh the irony!

Also rad 25 10% damage is superior to Fiery Wrath because it works on all conditions, and naturally they don’t even have to be yours.

The x/x/30/5/5 in not amazing and it’s overshadowed by some current builds. However, we are expecting some serious damage nerfs on hambow warrior and spirit rangers (through burning upkeep) so things might be better in a near future.

Radiant power is clearly superior to fiery wrath, no doubt about it, and Focused mind, even coupled with Inner fire, is still inferior to the raw 20% critchance of a Radiance build (which can also be coupled with Inner fire, even if I felt it’s a bit overkill unless you wear soldiers amulet).
The zeal build can, however, pop similar bonuses for a burst or a couple of attack chains once the enemy has burnt some defensive resources and the damage is likely to land (losing only the damage from Powerful Blades, which would be close to a no brainer with this reworked Glacial Heart and after being boosted to 10%, and probably a different runeset).
I also feel that those 0.3 chill seconds (from Zeal and Lyssa, which is a great asset, but a bit overkill again for a non Soldier Radiance build) are quite powerful.

I don’t really know. I like OP’s idea a lot, I just feel it could be too powerful on a 10/30/30/0/0 zeker build and, after looking at some numbers through this answer, maybe also for a 0/30/30/5/5 on Soldier/zerk + Lyssa (not sure about this, it would depend on where meta shifts afer the patch).