Guild Wars 2

Perma vigor It’s gone:

Vigorous Precision – vigor on crit have its cooldown increased from 5s to 10s.

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/17/gw2-ready-up-skill-and-balance-developer-livestream-notes/

This is a 100% nerf (doubling).

In order to compensate for this, should guards get more precision in their builds?

Yikes. That kinda sucks. Vigorous Precision is IMO one of the reasons we have low HP pool. I was hoping the compensation is related to our HP.

Guardians do have to have precision in the first place. Any build that does not have any precision always baffles me. So many potentials are wasted.

Most PVT builds chose to ignore precision. With this buff, I’m wondering how viable those type of builds are. Endurance is a huge part of the PVT build IMO.

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

Maestria of Strat.2974:

Most PVT builds chose to ignore precision. With this buff, I’m wondering how viable those type of builds are. Endurance is a huge part of the PVT build IMO.

And they end up like this person and be a negative nancy.

foofad.5162:

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

foofad.5162:

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

The game should not (and mostly isn’t) balanced on pve, this is a huge nerf.

20,25,0,0,25 is going to be the new meta

Better get used to no vigor lads!

It reduces vigor up time by approximately 50%. But remember that you also regain endurance normally – vigor just doubles that rate. So the Vigorous Precision change is not cutting dodges in half – it’s reducing dodges by approximately 25%. This is assuming no other source of endurance gain like Sigil of Energy.

If you previously had 100% uptime on Vigor (looking at a PvE scenario) and never sat at full endurance, you got 12 dodges per minute, not counting the initial two. With the Vigorous Precision change, you get 9 dodges per minute. Is 3 less dodges per minute going to make that big of a difference?

And remember that in PvP, other professions are receiving or have already received similar endurance regeneration nerfs.

Note: Support guardians with low crit chances will see a bit more adverse effect because of higher chances for the ICD and your crits to not align nicely.

I think this is an unnoticeable change, inbetween boon duration and Save Yourselves(if you use it, I think most do), you’re still looking at pretty much permanent Vigor.
Just consider 25% Boon Duration, and let’s say you’re going to get the proc every 11 seconds(because you can’t realistically proc it every 10 seconds), and you’re looking at 7.5 seconds every 11 + 12.5 every 60, you’re looking at 90% Vigor uptime here, and 100% in actual combat(Vigor will only briefly fall off in the last seconds before Save Yourselves is back up again). Not to mention that getting Runes of Lyssa, or any runes with boon duration makes it permanent without any but’s(except for boon removal of course)

Good.
/15character

xFireize.6318:

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

Actually the individual boon durations supposedly got buffed. :>

Given the number of blocks you have and 1-2 energy sigils for a few bosses (lupi, archdiviner, dredge power suit) if need be there really is no need for vigor. I’ve been using and promoting 20/25/0/0/25 for awhile and it’s the next step forward. I guess more will adapt to it when the patch comes out whether they like it or not

Fashion Mage.3712:

xFireize.6318:

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

Actually the individual boon durations supposedly got buffed. :>

That’s just some legerdemain from the propaganda department. What this probably means is that runes like Monk with + 15% duration on the second slot ( so 2+2+2 gives 45% total ) will have the bonus increased to + 30% on the 4th slot ( so you get + 30% max regardless of rune combination – 4+2 probably won’t give you anything meaningful stats-wise )

So they aren’t only making useless hundred of gold coins and hours invested in gearing several sets along my character roster (my Guardian alone has 6 entire set armors, so does my Warrior) turning all the effort to achieve the desired items into ashes but they also nerf (for second time) the only useful tool that skilled Guardian players has against non-AI targets (I mean: the lack of vigor doesn’t have relevance against PvE content because PvE content in this game is ultra easy, but lacking evades being a class with barely 13k base HP just will destroy us in PvP/WvW.

And meanwhile we have four useless spirit weapon skills and five useless spirit weapon traits filling slots in our character sheet… Great.

I’m so glad because I didn’t bother to create a ascendant armor (and at the same time I feel so sorry for the fellow members in my guild that get trapped in this clusterkitten). This patch is a giantic slap in the face of the long run players in the game; is not our fault if ArenaNet botched the internal balance of the PvE content making no-zerk gear progressively useless. My WvW/PvP builds doesn’t deserve to be scorched (and the time and effort in them being wasted) just because they realized that the game isn’t played as they intended. Is their fault if dungeons are designed to avoid most of the pulls and then to nuke the other ones and the bosses in the same corner.

Bad news, taking in consideration that in a couple of months there will be a lot of competition in terms of new games around the corner…

On a whole I believe they looking to reduce active defence across the board. One of their first steps to improve roles, build diversity, events & encounters.

Do I like losing the easy permanent vigor NO. On a hold I don’t think the game was balanced around permanent vigor but if this can help improve the above aspects them I take the hit.

Reducing active defenses in a game that was supposed to be about skillful and active gameplay somehow seems counterproductive to me.

Ha.

Haha.

Hahahahahaha.

Okay.

I’m also somewhat positive they’ll decide, some number of weeks or months down the road, to implement the Ferocity change in sPvP as well before they ever consider bringing down the Condi/Toughness meta. And before they consider bringing down Warriors.

Or perhaps they’ll nerf Shelter to make Litany more desirable. That’d be fun.

I envy the Guardians who are only interested in PvE in this game.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Ha.

Or perhaps they’ll nerf Shelter to make Litany more desirable. That’d be fun.

I actually would not be surprised.

Why do they always nerf good things to make bad things seem better -.- is it really that hard to just buff the bad things?

J Eberle.9312:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Ha.

Or perhaps they’ll nerf Shelter to make Litany more desirable. That’d be fun.

I actually would not be surprised.

Why do they always nerf good things to make bad things seem better -.- is it really that hard to just buff the bad things?

Isn’t that what they are doing now to Litany of Wrath and Healing Breeze? Buffing the bad things…

Exedore.6320:

With the Vigorous Precision change, you get 9 dodges per minute. Is 3 less dodges per minute going to make that big of a difference?

Sure. It’s not just fewer dodges, it’s less HP/s as Selfless Daring will trigger less often. With 1.4k procs, 3 fewer dodges a minute is about 24 less HP/s from procs alone, as well as who knows how much more damage taken from not evading. If you only dodge 3 puny 500 damage autoattacks, that’s closer to 50 HP/s. (on a side note, Healing Signet is losing about 36HP/s, I believe?)

It’s not the end of the world, but it’s definitely not a pretty sight.

Bezagron.7352:

On a whole I believe they looking to reduce active defence across the board. One of their first steps to improve roles, build diversity, events & encounters.

Do I like losing the easy permanent vigor NO. On a hold I don’t think the game was balanced around permanent vigor but if this can help improve the above aspects them I take the hit.

Active defense promotes skillful play. It’s also a compensation for our low HP and lack of invulnerabilities. Otherwise is better to play with a Warrior, because Wall of Reflection is only needed in a few dungeons, you known. In WvW/PvP the vigorous precision nerf (the new one, due the trait was already nerfed in the past) is huge. Condinecros already laugh at our faces, wait the patch to see them laughing even harder.

Tarsius.3170:

Fashion Mage.3712:

xFireize.6318:

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

Actually the individual boon durations supposedly got buffed. :>

That’s just some legerdemain from the propaganda department. What this probably means is that runes like Monk with + 15% duration on the second slot ( so 2+2+2 gives 45% total ) will have the bonus increased to + 30% on the 4th slot ( so you get + 30% max regardless of rune combination – 4+2 probably won’t give you anything meaningful stats-wise )

Dang 30% is still too much for (4) if the (5) and (6) bonuses are gonna be better. Can I get the source pls?

True active defence promotes skillful play but are dodges the active defence we want for Guardian’s – A heavy armoured warrior. I feel NO! I’m no acrobatic thief that dodges all over the place.

I’m THE GUARDIAN – the defender at the front protecting all my friends punishing all who would attack.

In this way I feel the Warrior’s active defence flavour-wise performs better with skills like Berserker Stance & Endure Pain.

I’m THE WARRIOR – Feel my power your attacks are nothing but flea bites.

I don’t want to dodge. I’m a Guardian, I want to defend and punish any for attacking me or my friends. Give me more blocks, more counter-attacks, punishing reflects and maybe a little more invulnerabilities. Just don’t make me dodge so much. I want to stand there not more around.

Yes reducing vigor up keep is a hit to our survivability but should 5 trait points provide 100% uptime on vigor. 100% up time on anything should require more investment then just 5 trait points and in group play achieving 100% up time on most boons is easy.

The one effect the reduction of overall dodges I don’t like is the hit to Selfless Daring. This reduces not only our own healing but our group heals as well. How could this loss be replaced. Two ideas I had were;

• Increase the heal from Selfless Daring but this could causes problems with permanent vigor.
• Add another trait similar to Selfless Daring but operates on blocks.

Tldr: I would rather increase the Guardian’s abilities to block & reflect then have more dodges.

xFireize.6318:

Tarsius.3170:

Fashion Mage.3712:

xFireize.6318:

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

Actually the individual boon durations supposedly got buffed. :>

That’s just some legerdemain from the propaganda department. What this probably means is that runes like Monk with + 15% duration on the second slot ( so 2+2+2 gives 45% total ) will have the bonus increased to + 30% on the 4th slot ( so you get + 30% max regardless of rune combination – 4+2 probably won’t give you anything meaningful stats-wise )

Dang 30% is still too much for (4) if the (5) and (6) bonuses are gonna be better. Can I get the source pls?

30% was just an example – I just wanted to illustrate that I think it’s fairly unlikely anet will buff 6 rune sets so they offer better stats than the 2+2+2s we enjoy at the moment.

Remember the Rune of the Monk’s 6th bonus is “grants aegis whenever you use an elite”.

So far we’ve had no indication that those fairly useless effects will be removed and replaced with additional stats bonuses

Painbow.6059:

20,25,0,0,25 is going to be the new meta

Better get used to no vigor lads!

Yup, I agree. And grabbing the extra 5% damage to GS might also help with the damage loss from crit damage change.

Could a change a to critical as a whole replaces these losses (reduced vigor & crit damage) people are feeling. Just wondering I’ve started a PvX-Critical-gameplay-Changing-criticals and was wondering on people’s thoughts.

Bezagron.7352:

True active defence promotes skillful play but are dodges the active defence we want for Guardian’s – A heavy armoured warrior. I feel NO! I’m no acrobatic thief that dodges all over the place.

I’m THE GUARDIAN – the defender at the front protecting all my friends punishing all who would attack.

In this way I feel the Warrior’s active defence flavour-wise performs better with skills like Berserker Stance & Endure Pain.

I’m THE WARRIOR – Feel my power your attacks are nothing but flea bites.

I don’t want to dodge. I’m a Guardian, I want to defend and punish any for attacking me or my friends. Give me more blocks, more counter-attacks, punishing reflects and maybe a little more invulnerabilities. Just don’t make me dodge so much. I want to stand there not more around.

Yes reducing vigor up keep is a hit to our survivability but should 5 trait points provide 100% uptime on vigor. 100% up time on anything should require more investment then just 5 trait points and in group play achieving 100% up time on most boons is easy.

The one effect the reduction of overall dodges I don’t like is the hit to Selfless Daring. This reduces not only our own healing but our group heals as well. How could this loss be replaced. Two ideas I had were;

• Increase the heal from Selfless Daring but this could causes problems with permanent vigor.
• Add another trait similar to Selfless Daring but operates on blocks.

Tldr: I would rather increase the Guardian’s abilities to block & reflect then have more dodges.

Do you even dungeon bro? Haha but in seriousness, a lot of players enjoy the active role. There is no “tank” in this game. I certainly wouldn’t argue against more blocks and invulns. available to us! We already have abysmal health and the reduction of that vigor will cost us some.

I do hope there is something added to balance it out (and not some increase to runes like Monk or Water that force me to play Cleric or something equally useless and boring in PvE).

Im curious if no energy sigil lupi solo will still be possible with this nerf. Its already relatively challenging with perma vigor but I imagine it should still be possible with flawless play. You might have to sacrifice an aegis though. :P

spoj.9672:

Im curious if no energy sigil lupi solo will still be possible with this nerf. Its already relatively challenging with perma vigor but I imagine it should still be possible with flawless play. You might have to sacrifice an aegis though. :P

And lose the 20% damage bonus! You sir are sick and crazy…

Bezagron.7352:

On a whole I believe they looking to reduce active defence across the board. One of their first steps to improve roles, build diversity, events & encounters.

Do I like losing the easy permanent vigor NO. On a hold I don’t think the game was balanced around permanent vigor but if this can help improve the above aspects them I take the hit.

Permavigor chanes are sPvP related. Too much dodging leads to spam, since it heals you and you’re going to regain 3 dodge woth endurance every 10 seconds anyways, with some attacks (even instant ones that you can’t avoid on purpose) randomly missing.
Less dodging implies a weaker class, both because the obvious decrease on evasion time and less healing from Selfless Daring (losing half dodge is about a 30HPS reduction for a bunker guardian in sPvP, the same amount reduced on Healing Signet and pondered as quite significant by devs), but bunker guardian is still strong enough IMHO to remain competitive.
A (quite possible) Sigil of Energy nerf on top of that (with still no changes on Selfless Daring), however, can easily make warriors more interesting as mid-point bunkers.

Even if offensive guardians, which are barely competitive, will also get nerfed, if guardian bunker loses his place in favor of warrior one, they could get benefit as party wide condition removal assets.

Point #1
For WvW: This change will have no effect on WvW zerg bunker Guardians. Mine has 5% crit chance.

Point #2

True active defence promotes skillful play but are dodges the active defence we want for Guardian’s – A heavy armoured warrior. I feel NO! I’m no acrobatic thief that dodges all over the place.

I’m THE GUARDIAN – the defender at the front protecting all my friends punishing all who would attack.

I don’t want to dodge. I’m a Guardian, I want to defend and punish any for attacking me or my friends. Give me more blocks, more counter-attacks, punishing reflects and maybe a little more invulnerabilities.

Where this is concerned it raises interesting questions about how well Arenanet’s varying visions of what the Guardian should be fit together. For example, see how the guardian emblem is the Ankh on a Shield.

1. The Ankh is a symbol of life – like the regen and healing we get on Virtue of Resolve. By contrast, the warrior has no such emblem, but far better regen and healing.
2. The symbol of the shield is obviously one of protection and defence, but where is that in the game? In WvW, for instance, one would be rightly mocked for reaching for a shield as opposed to any of the two-handers, regardless of sigils (so I have no idea what the devs were talking about on the livestream regarding this).
   A second example of this would be the legendary shield “The Flameseeker Prophecies”. Clearly themed around the original concept for the Guardian, this shield is barely ever seen wielded by one, and is far more common on engineers!

TL;DR for Point #2: the guardian doesn’t fit the original vision of the guardian.

Svarty.8019:

Point #1
For WvW: This change will have no effect on WvW zerg bunker Guardians. Mine has 5% crit chance.

You need an average of 20 hits to trigger Vigorous Precision. On a massive battle, this can easily achieved by spamming staff #1 as long as you hit multiple targets.
If you get Fury, lets say from FGJ or Warbanner, permavigor is almost ensured.

I have 4% crit chance on my guardian. In dungeons, I have perma vigor. With 4% crit chance.

Not surprised that they are changing it.

doesn’t phase me, was tired of having my endurance full when I’m trying to use 25 in Honor

Funny part is, the original version of vigorous precision (1 second proc no cool down) favored offensive builds and was less effective for defensive builds. Then they changed it (5 second proc 5 second cool down) to be more effective for bunker builds. Soon it will about half as effective for both.

It was also incredibly good synergy with AH back when that was still a thing, too. WW in a pack of mobs could heal you for 1-2k sometimes. Nutters.

I enjoy dungeons but get little chance to do them often. I’m not a speed runner but I am interested in the concept and build designs to achieve it. Mainly I’m looking at theme, and as much as I like dodging it just doesn’t feel right for a Guardian (Heavy armoured profession) For me;

• Warrior’s are about damage and shrugging off damage as if it’s nothing.
• Guardian’s shrug of the damage too but protect & buff allies punishing the attackers for daring to attack.
• Thief’s & Ranger’s are the hit and run guerilla’s, Thief is the evasive stealthy melee character were Ranger’s are the evasive nature trackers with a bonded companion striking from ambush or range.
• Necromancer’s are the master’s of condition’s & death were your life is just eaten away staying near them. Bring back deathly creations to attack you.
• Mesmer’s are the ticker dualing with your mind shattering and confusing you.
• Elementalist’s and Engineer’s are jack of all trades, were the elementalist looks to the power’s on magic and the elements to achieve this adaptability engineering’s look to the power’s of science and natural phenomenons.

These are only macro descriptions and don’t cover all areas a profession can cover and preform, but give me an overall theme for each profession.

So for me excess dodging takes away from the theme of the Guardian. Gameplay-wise we require close to this level of dodging to help survivability but I would rather see dodging phased out for more blocks, reflects and maybe one more invulnerability to achieve the same level of survivability.

xFireize.6318:

Maestria of Strat.2974:

Most PVT builds chose to ignore precision. With this buff, I’m wondering how viable those type of builds are. Endurance is a huge part of the PVT build IMO.

And they end up like this person and be a negative nancy.

foofad.5162:

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

Those silly mix-n-match rune guardians won’t be able to stack boon duration easily to that amount anymore. I only run a +5% boon duration build, just for the Inspired Virtue trait.

lold, sometimes some one have to be negative nancy.

foofad.5162:

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

Not big deal at all? So in order to play Guardian, I MUST have boon duration or go further in virtues?

How nice, this provide a nice build diversity. NO. One of the biggest Guardian problems is the build diversity and they’re decreasing it. Every balance patch we are losing or keeping the same and boring builds to play, while all other classes always get something new.

Also, not everyone only plays on PvE.

If you’ll calm down and read what I said, I said that 1.5 seconds lost isn’t a big deal. If you don’t want to run boon duration, don’t. But now that choice is going to have a consequence with regards to vigor uptime. 50% uptime isn’t that tragic though, especially when a lot of people don’t even use it at all.

Mikau.6920:

foofad.5162:

Um, most builds have SOME KIND of boon duration. Anywhere from 25-50%. Some even go as high as 80%. At most a 10/25/0/10/25 person is going to miss out on 3.75 out of 10 seconds of vigor. If they run boon duration runes, it comes down to 1.5 seconds. Not a big deal at all.

Not big deal at all? So in order to play Guardian, I MUST have boon duration or go further in virtues?

How nice, this provide a nice build diversity. NO. One of the biggest Guardian problems is the build diversity and they’re decreasing it. Every balance patch we are losing or keeping the same and boring builds to play, while all other classes always get something new.

Also, not everyone only plays on PvE.

Actually on build divirsity IMO will be created over time, when Anet decides to add more skills/weapons, in first place they need to adress the dps fest, and rework the damage VS defense VS condis for a better experience.

WOW, WHAT A HUGE BUFF! Now I don’t have to dodge as often to keep the 10% damage while not full endurance trait active!

Xhyros.1340:

WOW, WHAT A HUGE BUFF! Now I don’t have to dodge as often to keep the 10% damage while not full endurance trait active!

People actually rely on that trait? Generally only bunker builds even hit that deep in honor. And with their low crit chance, its generally not even perma vigor to begin with.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Xhyros.1340:

WOW, WHAT A HUGE BUFF! Now I don’t have to dodge as often to keep the 10% damage while not full endurance trait active!

People actually rely on that trait? Generally only bunker builds even hit that deep in honor. And with their low crit chance, its generally not even perma vigor to begin with.

Thy sarcasm detection must be off.

yeah i’m not about to be pigeon holed into more boon duration just to compensate for this.

I love the logic here, give players the ability to dodge but then punish them for dodging too much makes sense. I still can’t believe a dev said that dodging was prevalent in GW2 ….

This is a nerf to not only our survivability but also our healing. I wonder if Anet will take that into consideration…probably not since the retal nerf butchered a significant part of our damage and they didn’t change anything about Guardian damage mechanics after that.

Strong work Anet, strong work…

MastaNeenja.1537:

yeah i’m not about to be pigeon holed into more boon duration just to compensate for this.

I love the logic here, give players the ability to dodge but then punish them for dodging too much makes sense. I still can’t believe a dev said that dodging was prevalent in GW2 ….

boon duration is about to get nerfed too m8. Can’t win for losing.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

MastaNeenja.1537:

yeah i’m not about to be pigeon holed into more boon duration just to compensate for this.

I love the logic here, give players the ability to dodge but then punish them for dodging too much makes sense. I still can’t believe a dev said that dodging was prevalent in GW2 ….

boon duration is about to get nerfed too m8. Can’t win for losing.

Oh I must have missed that part, was that in the twitch stream from last week? I was listening to it while at work so that detail could have slipped by. If they want to keep on bashing us with a nerf bat that’s fine, I have one lvl 80 in every class and EQN is supposed to come out at some point this year so I’ll just wait it out and see.

So glad I haven’t invested in any ascended armors yet, and I weep for those who have…

It’s more to do with Runes and they’re redesigning because they didn’t like the mix and match strategy people are going with. For example, I’ve got 2 runes of 3 sets in my gear for max boon duration of 45%. They’d rather you use 1 complete set than doing that to get “better” benefits, so they’re changing the way duration is bonuses, like putting the bonus in the 4,5,6th slot instead of the 2nd slot.

I’m okay with this if they give the entire rune set the max bonus duration you’d get from doing a mixed set instead, but I highly doubt they will make it a max 45% or higher (if you go for a specific duration like might).

The devs have stated in the past they didn’t like how some classes are using boons as a main for their build and are going to slowly nerf the dependence on them. One such way was the nerf to the bunker elementalist. This is another example of continuing that development strategy, aimed at those that utilitize bonus duration.

Oh you meant with the runes, got it. Yeah right now one of my old sets of armor has that very set up on it, two water, two monk, and two major Sanctuary. I’m not to worried about the rune situation they could use a revamp.