New guardian change thread
-Completely remove invulnerability from traits and replace it with burning or blind, as it stand we can’t stack invulnerability for it to make a difference.
Invulnerability? What traits have that? Do you mean vulnerability? I might not be running that spec that has these traits.
-Also, remove all traits that in affect when you’re downed, no one uses them and they seem to be just put in there to fill space, same with falling damage.
I agree, these are the worst traits by far. Falling damage can be useful sometimes, like when doing some Vistas or Jumping Puzzles, but for the most part, yes, pretty useless.
-Rework the weapon master traits to give something else besides a 5% increase to damage, I don’t think it’s significant enough to warrant its use. Maybe add a certain amount to a specific stat within the tree.
I would like to see more diversity here as well. Weapons like the mace could give more defense. Weapons like the Staff could give bonus healing. The weapons should provide bonuses that appeal to more how it is meant to be used. More a long the lines of the Shield traits with +toughness and 20% CD reduction.
-Zealous blade needs to scale with healing power better, at base it heals for 25 a hit while at over 1200 HP, it heals for 26.
Never used this, but I heard it sucked, especially for a Tier 3 ability.
-Strength in numbers doesn’t provide enough of a boost to once again, warrant its use. 30 toughness just doesn’t seem like much. Maybe put it closer to 100 or maybe 70?
This needs to scale per level, or per trait point. Something like 1/level (probably less) or 2/trait point would be an improvement. 30 across the board seems pretty weak, especially at max level.
-Focused mind doesn’t seem like much of a change since two of the meditations are already instant and are stun breakers. Maybe change to give more burning?
Yea, useless. It would be nice to see the 20% CD reduction and this combined into one trait, and improved upon (like the Consecrations one from Virtues).
-Combine some of the symbol traits into one.
I agree that having 3 separate traits just for symbol size, duration and healing seems a little much. Feels more like filler than anything else. Combining a couple and adding something to a second and splitting it off into another tree would probably help and balance it as well.
-Remove Unscathed Contender, you’re almost never under the boon Aegis even in a small battle for this to make it useful. Not sure of a change here.
Yea, especially when I usually try to use Aegis to block attacks … not keep it up for as long as possible to do more damage. Counter intuitive to what Aegis is supposed to be used for.
-Elites: Renewed focus I think should allow for movement and skill usage and should remove all conditions when applied. As it stands, you’re not really invulnerable when using the skill.
All of the elites for Guardian just seem pretty lame overall. Especially when you compare it to some of the other classes. Warriors have utility skills that are better than Renewed Focus, hell their shield block is just as good basically. Taking stability off of the tomes is just horrible, especially when most of the skills don’t allow you to move when casting anyways. The need to pop stability in order to use your Elite is just dumb, while other classes are doing ridiculous AoE damage, while stable, while reflecting projectiles, while knocking everyone down, it needs some tuning I think. I hardly find the tomes useful in most “oh crap!” situations, as you are usually CC’d (by mobs or people) all the time when using it. 1 CC ruins the entire elite.
Overall, I agree with most of what you have. My largest problem with Guardian is large WvW fights. I can do alright sometimes rushing in and leading the charge, but more often than not I find myself just kind of standing around in the back. The scepter just feels kind of weak, especially when so many other classes have this 1200 range and like 900 diameter AoE abilities … it seems a little silly TBO. Guardian also feels incredibly slow in PvP compared to other classes, making many abilities like WW almost impossible to land. I feel like I can basically just be kited and there is nothing I can do to close the gap, catch up, and lock them down to kill them. 1 dodge roll and they are gone again :P
Most of my complaints are about large scale WvW (small scale is fine), PvP and PvE seem fine for the most part, though there are definitely things here and there that could use some added spice, fun and diversity added to them.
Vidrak Ironwill – Norn Guardian
Omniscient of Jade Quarry
Omniscient of Jade Quarry
Sorry, I meant vulnerability. I don’t want there to be huge changes to make these too powerful. I just want to put balance within the skills that we use. Again, we don’t utilize vulnerability so it should be replaced with burning or blind. I forgot to add some scepter tweaks but that’s already been beaten to death.
Just to add more, if you look at it the CC provided by the Guardian doesn’t stun. There’s Knockbacks and pulls with a few KD’s, all of which can allow skill usage since you’re not actively stunned.
I would really like to have some input by everyone and even mods to give some of their insight.
Completely remove vulnerability from traits and replace it with burning or blind, as it stand we can’t stack vulnerability for it to make a difference.
Yes, we can stack Vulnerability. Binding Jeopardy alone makes Chains of Light apply six stacks of Vulnerability. A symbol will pulse 4 stacks of Vulnerability with Symbolic Exposure, for a total of ten stacks. We’re not the best profession at stacking Vulnerability, but that’s no reason to strike it off entirely.
Also, remember that Vulnerability stacks from all sources. Even if you provide 6-10 stacks of Vulnerability consistently, that will help the rest of your party reach the 25-stack cap. Even taken on its own, 6-10 stacks is hardly something to sneeze at.
I will agree that Blind Exposure seems weak, applying just one Vulnerability stack per Blind, but if you run a build that applies frequent Blinds, it’s a good choice.
Rework the weapon master traits to give something else besides a 5% increase to damage, I don’t think it’s significant enough to warrant its use. Maybe add a certain amount to a specific stat within the tree.
Traits such as Greatsword Power (5% more GS damage) are on par with other similar traits. I agree they’re not terribly interesting, but they serve a purpose to anyone who wants to stack damage.
-Zealous blade needs to scale with healing power better, at base it heals for 25 a hit while at over 1200 HP, it heals for 26.
I agree that Zealous Blade needs some work. 25 HP per strike is just not worth a Grandmaster trait. Particularly in the Zeal tree. I wouldn’t mind seeing Zealous Blade folded into Greatsword Power.
Strength in numbers doesn’t provide enough of a boost to once again, warrant its use. 30 toughness just doesn’t seem like much. Maybe put it closer to 100 or maybe 70?
Strength in Numbers is nicer at lower level content than upper. 30 isn’t much at 80, but 100 or 70 would be too high. I’d prefer a more interesting dynamic. Strength in Numbers should scale with distance to nearby ally, so very close allies (think the radius of Mace 3) will get a much bigger Toughness boost.
Remove Internal cds and put in combination with another skill. Example: Glacial heart is applied as a symbol when laying down Ring of warding. But instead of giving it such a large chance to apply chilling, maybe lower it to 10%?
I do like the idea of removing Internal CD’s for existing CD’s, but I don’t like the suggestion for Glacial Heart, because it’s kind of wasted if you use it on Ring of Warding. The problem is that Glacial Heart is so powerful that we can’t really attach it to another regular attack’s CD.
I think pure of heart is bugged, how do you get healed when you’re already at full health when the aegis is removed?
You don’t. Pure of Heart works better if you lose Aegis when you’re not at full health. Works well with Valorous Defense.
Remove Unscathed Contender, you’re almost never under the boon Aegis even in a small battle for this to make it useful. Not sure of a change here.
You’re often under Aegis for the opening strikes of a fight, during which Unscathed Commander makes you hit harder. I agree it could be more interesting, but it’s also an Adept Trait.
Shielded Mind/Indomitable Courage overlap
This is an interesting point. I’d be interested in seeing some changes here.
Renewed Focus
I’d be okay with your proposed changes.
I didn’t see the other ways to apply vulnerability, excuse my ignorance. I’d just rather we continue to support the natural ways the guardian plays with blinds and burning. Also, when looking at vulnerability, the symbol requires you to stand in it for four seconds which isn’t going to happen, you’ll maybe get one stack off. Also, while the weapon master traits are on par with some others, I don’t think it makes the trait anymore valuable.
The trait Pure of heart doesn’t seem all that useful since it’s wasting the first aegis, just my opinion, maybe give it regeneration instead of a single heal to make it worthwhile?
I agree unscathed isn’t terrible just I think since 90% of the time you’re not under the boon Aegis, why not choose something more useful that works often?
I also find Glacial heart to be pretty good just the randomness of the proc turns me off to it. I sometimes find myself having it go off at the worst possible time or the best. I’d rather be able to choose when or have a better idea.
(edited by Arken.3725)
Also, my own suggestions:
Remove Improved Spirit Weapon Duration from Virtues and tie it into Spirit Weapon Mastery in Zeal.
Reasoning: Spirit Weapons are already a highly restrictive build. They require at least two Utility Slots devoted to Spirit Weapons, don’t do much during cooldowns and require investment in 20 Zeal, 20 Radiance and 10 Virtues. Ideally, you actually want 30 Zeal. This leaves very little elbow room for addition building.
The payoff is more or less worth it. Spirit Weapons are quite powerful when traited, hit hard, are invulnerable and stay on your target. However, the necessary 10-point dip into Virtue tends to seriously hamstring build diversity. You’re essentially stuck with 10—maybe 20—points to put where you please, and going 30 Radiance or 20/30 Virtues won’t synergize that well with Spirit Weapons.
Removing the 10 point investment in Virtues means 20 Zeal 30 Radiance (Right-Hand Strength) and 20 Honor becomes possible.
It makes more sense that way seeing as most of the traits affecting the spirit weapons are in the zeal tree anyway. It would allow as Eveningstar stated, more diversity and not so much restriction.
I’m going to suggest my Scepter changes again:
- Becomes a projectile finisher (or maybe a chain that ends in a projectile finisher), with a slower cast time, but a higher traveling speed
- Becomes a Symbol of some kind
The traits as a whole could stand to be looked at again.
“Come on, hit me!”
Scepter speed seems to be the main issue. I’d like to see it be as fast as an arrow to be on par with other ranged weapons.
The reason Stability was removed from the tomes is to make them not as absurdly ridiculous for WvW or sPvP. 20 seconds of stability and the freedom to just cast whatever you want is kind of insane, especially considering that Tome of Wrath’s holy nuke has a huge AoE that does a significant chunk of damage on top of a knockdown. Tome of Courage has an AoE stun and an AoE max heal (limited to 5 targets but still).
I actually think the guardian elites are pretty awesome. Renewed Focus might seem meh until you build a Virtues-based spec, but it is really really useful for that build. It’s a melee-focused build anyway so the root is kind of a non-issue since you’ll be in somebody’s face using it. It’s not like it’d give anything extra if you could move, you’d still be casting it and locked from doing anything.
The tomes went from being too strong to being very difficult to pull off. Granted the #5 on each tome is awesome, what good is it if you can’t even utilize. It would make sense if the cast-time was lowered with the removal of stability.
I agree that some of the traits mentioned here are close to useless (Protector’s Impact(while not really useless I don’t see it’s useful while fighting, except when you jump of cliffs in WvW and others don’t have the trait ^^), Strength of the Fallen, Unscathed Contender, Revenge of the Fallen). And some need improving and or combining with other traits :
- Spirit Weapon Mastery and Improved Spirit Weapon Duration could be combined and put together in the Zeal line.
- Zealous blade and Greatsword power combined. Or make greatsword power stronger by either increasing the damage to 10% or adding another effect like increasing the range of greatsword abilities by 20%.
- Combining Writ of Persistence and Writ of Exaltation.
- I was also thinking about combining some of the meditation traits, but I don’t have a good idea which ones.
- There should be a rework in the Zeal minor traits. Since when you go that trait line it’s a real waste if you don’t use weapons with symbols. The traits should be of some help regardless of what weapons you choose. The first trait can stay but the other 2 can be combined and move in to the adept part of Zeal.
- There are the traits that give 5% to scepter/sword/mace or 20%/15% cd reduction to offhand weapons. I’d like to see improvement with all of them as there was with the shield trait. Torch can get 15% cd reduction and +10-15% burning duration from all sources. Focus can get 20% cd reduction and an extra block/bounce on the skills. No good ideas on the main hand weapons yet.
- Also there are no hammer improvement traits right now.
There are probably some traits that I didn’t cover that could use a change but only these ones came to mind. I’d love to see more changes to traits on all classes not just guardian. Right now traits just don’t give as much customisation as I’d like them to give.
The only main-hand weapon we have that doesn’t generate a symbol is the sword, though. The mace, hammer, and greatsword all generate symbols so unless both your weapon sets have swords for some reason, you have access to a symbol at every turn. Not to mention that synergizes with some of the other trait lines that create symbols on you in certain conditions.
The only main-hand weapon we have that doesn’t generate a symbol is the sword, though. The mace, hammer, and greatsword all generate symbols so unless both your weapon sets have swords for some reason, you have access to a symbol at every turn. Not to mention that synergizes with some of the other trait lines that create symbols on you in certain conditions.
What about the scepter ? I’ve seen a lot of people running around with scepter/shield and sword/focus(torch). And if they go in that line for spirit weapons it’s a waste. I know it’s not that common but still the problem exists.
Ah you’re right. I did forget the scepter. I’m personally of the opinion that Smite should just be a symbol instead of…whatever it is.
I’d like to see it changed to a symbol as well. Despite me hating symbols at first I started to love them. Would also like to see a off hand with symbols in the future. And the scepter really does need some improving on it’s first 2 abilities. Smite could become a symbol but it really doesn’t need a change that bad since it’s not the biggest of our problems. Orb of wrath is just ridiculously slow. It could be changed to a beam like projectile finisher(20%).
I’m going to suggest my Scepter changes again:
- Becomes a projectile finisher (or maybe a chain that ends in a projectile finisher), with a slower cast time, but a higher traveling speed
- Becomes a Symbol of some kind
The traits as a whole could stand to be looked at again.
I’m a fan of your idea.
I’ve been an advocate for Guardian Longbow for a long time now—but let’s admit it. That’s like being an advocate for the first manned mission to Mars. It’s not at all likely to happen but I’m obligated by principle and passion to advocate it all the same.
Still, I like your idea of making Scepter a projectile finisher + 3-attack chain, with a longer cast time to offset the increased projectile speed.
The other problem with Scepter is near-zero Trait support. This is more significant than it seems, because we’re often forced to use Scepter—and only Scepter—if we’re doing any sort of ranged tactics, but nearly none of our traits improve our Scepter performance.
Making Smite a symbol of some sort would neatly solve that issue, and give Scepter great synergy with the Zeal, Radiance and Honor lines.
I’m a fan of your idea.
I’ve been an advocate for Guardian Longbow for a long time now—but let’s admit it. That’s like being an advocate for the first manned mission to Mars. It’s not at all likely to happen but I’m obligated by principle and passion to advocate it all the same.
Still, I like your idea of making Scepter a projectile finisher + 3-attack chain, with a longer cast time to offset the increased projectile speed.
The other problem with Scepter is near-zero Trait support. This is more significant than it seems, because we’re often forced to use Scepter—and only Scepter—if we’re doing any sort of ranged tactics, but nearly none of our traits improve our Scepter performance.
Making Smite a symbol of some sort would neatly solve that issue, and give Scepter great synergy with the Zeal, Radiance and Honor lines.
Thanks man.
I feel the same about Mars and Guardian Rifles (I still claim that Rifles would have a stronger visual impact).
And honesty demands that I note that the chain-attack wasn’t my idea, but it fitted with the things I did come up with, so I included it.
And I hope to have time tomorrow to write an in-depth look at our traits.
“Come on, hit me!”
I can’t wait to see it, just there seems to be a lot of filler traits within all the professions, not just ours. I think some consolidation would really help to individualize yourself from the rest.(symbols in particular)
Also, I’ve noticed a few comments about too much ret and protection for the Guardian. Normally I would agree but when you’re on the lowest tier of health, this seems necessary. Once you take that away or reduce it significantly, you’re essentially playing a lesser powered warrior.