Guild Wars 2

i think it’s a good thing that this is being discussed and/or brought to ANet’s attention. at least, hopefully, if we do hear from them, that we do get an official word regarding their stance on this potential “bug”, amongst many other issues.

i’ve tested this a bit more and am more or less able to pull it off when i want to – again, endurance availability depending and if it is actually beneficial while playing. and it being beneficial also has many layers and factors to it. it’s not a simple, if you do this, you can faceroll through any content. if you mess up or misjudge your dodges (i.e. end up not being able to when you need to), you can be easily downed or even taken out completely in WvW/PvP. but it does add some more strategy or tactics to how one choose to approach any given situation now.

bottom-line, it’s up to ANet to decide what it is and if it was intended or not. at the same time, it’s up to the player to choose to do this or not. i personally run with two-handed mastery and would rather keep my chain animation “un-skipped” so i can M each chain. but knowing i can do this if i choose to is not bad either. ANet can tell me otherwise.

lastly if they DO choose to fix this, the hammer, or Guardian or the mace will not be broken in any way. this “feature” isn’t game-breaking in any way to start with either.

Bad memories of the changes FC did in AoC to “fix” combo cancelling comes to mind… THAT was without penalty too, at least here we have endurance keeping it relatively in check.

Mank.2183:

Bad memories of the changes FC did in AoC to “fix” combo cancelling comes to mind… THAT was without penalty too, at least here we have endurance keeping it relatively in check.

Funcoms so called fix to “combo-skipping” actually damaged it more then it fixed it.. Before it took some skill to Time things and move around to not die.. At that point you saw what players that where good.. Take Chigo for example, he could pretty much take any melee Class to lvl 80 with kitteny gear and still just laugh some High pvplevel noobs to death.. Not like now when its kitten and so much more about the gear..

Brutaly.6257:

Personally i couldnt care less, this issue people seem to have, even though misdirected and uninformed, is with the hammer, it can be used with all weapons. and as such any future adjustment has to be done to the dodge, not the hammer.

Yeah except no. Be more pompous.

The problem I have is that, rather than seeing this for what it is (a blatant abuse of an anomaly/oversight) you’re sitting there arguing that this is somehow a feature. You are flatly wrong. It’s only a “feature” to you because you need to rationalize it for yourself. You’re reinforcing yourself even though you know you’re wrong, which is quite frankly a very dangerous mentality to adopt.

This is probably the first time I heard exploits, or at least unintended effects, be called “depth” of game play.

The fix is to not allow people to attack while dodging. The only exception would be off-cooldown attacks such as the Guardian’s Zealot’s Fire or Judge’s Intervention, or the Engineer’s Surprise Shot attack.

Just make dodge rolling cause a global cooldown, or a half global cooldown. If that messes up channeled skills like heals or whatever then don’t make dodge rolling interrupt channeled skills, but still trigger a cooldown for everything else. That will preserve the current environment without allowing for people to exploit things like this.

I personally have no issue with this if it’s uniform to all attack chains. This sort of thing, as others have pointed out, is not remotely new in MMO’s or games in general, and I completely agree with the sentiment that it increases the game’s depth and helps to distinguish skilled players from others. Just think of Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros – players found a glitch in the game mechanics that eventually became the hallmark of skilled play.

Is dodging mid-attack chain intended? Probably not. Would I be disappointed if Anet decided to remove it? Sure, because it presents another strategic option during combat, and unlike many similar bugs, this one has a very distinct cost and benefit. A faster 3rd swing for a full bar of endurance. Spikier DPS for reduced defenses. In using this, you’re betting that you can land that third hit and planning ahead to know that you’re not going to be punished for sacrificing a dodge. This is by no means a glitch that should be used regularly, but has potential to become one of the clutch moves that decides close matches, either to the benefit or detriment of the user.

Also, if this is left alone, don’t expect it to become some little-known secret that only a handful of players are using to get the edge over everyone else. Much like Wavedashing, this will likely become a skill that will be reasonably common knowledge, that many will practice, and that some will master. Those who are dedicated to pushing their game to the highest levels will be rewarded. Once again, however, this bug is unique in that it doesn’t guarantee them the edge over someone not using it. I might have more mixed feelings about its existence if it weren’t for that fact, but I think Anet has a very interesting opportunity here, and I believe they should take it.

Kerithlan.1659:

Brutaly.6257:

Personally i couldnt care less, this issue people seem to have, even though misdirected and uninformed, is with the hammer, it can be used with all weapons. and as such any future adjustment has to be done to the dodge, not the hammer.

Yeah except no. Be more pompous.

The problem I have is that, rather than seeing this for what it is (a blatant abuse of an anomaly/oversight) you’re sitting there arguing that this is somehow a feature. You are flatly wrong. It’s only a “feature” to you because you need to rationalize it for yourself. You’re reinforcing yourself even though you know you’re wrong, which is quite frankly a very dangerous mentality to adopt.

Besides personal insults which brings nothing of value i actually think you have to read again. I actually find it fishy, which i state in almost every post in this subject but i also think its worth the discussion.

If you think its pompous to actually point out that people have some sort of misdirected focus on the hammer when its actually the dodge thats making this stunt possible is pompous then so be it.

You know even if you have an opinion you can actually discuss both pros and cons.

Kerithlan.1659:

The fix is to not allow people to attack while dodging. The only exception would be off-cooldown attacks such as the Guardian’s Zealot’s Fire or Judge’s Intervention, or the Engineer’s Surprise Shot attack.

Just make dodge rolling cause a global cooldown, or a half global cooldown. If that messes up channeled skills like heals or whatever then don’t make dodge rolling interrupt channeled skills, but still trigger a cooldown for everything else. That will preserve the current environment without allowing for people to exploit things like this.

This would would dumd down the game, removing options isnt the way to go, fixing them or normalizing/incorporate them are.

The only issue is that the dodge can be interupted. If people have missed out on this i can just clarify it again. There is nothing wrong with the chain and there is nothing wrong in dodging within the chain.

THE ISSUE IS THAT THE DODGE CAN BE INTERUPTED.

There is no need to make it so you cant dodge with in the chain, ofc you should be able to do this. It adds depth.

There is on need to reset the chain when you dodge, ofc yopu should be able to finish the chain after a dodge. It adds depth.

The only thing needed is to make sure a dodge cant be interupted by an other skill. If this needs a fix, this is all it needs. Dont fix it if it isnt broken.

Let me try to put this topic to rest once and for all.

First of all, you don’t have to dodge to speed up the animation. All you need to do is strafe left, strafe right quickly during the 3rd chain to speed up the symbol application.

This, however, doesn’t increase your DPS as you will start the 1st hit of the next chain at the same time as if you didn’t speed up the animation. This can be easily verified by going to the heart of the mists to test it on the golem. Just go to a golem, cast retreat, and count the number of AA swings in 60 seconds with or without animation skip using steady weapons.

But this does affect PvP as it potentially allows hammer users to burst out the same damage over a shorter period of time. But it isn’t even that much shorter actually and the burst damage isn’t a lot (at least an order of magnitude smaller than what thieves are capable of). As such, I don’t think this needs to be fixed as it only provides a negligible edge.

To sum up
1) You can animation skip by strafing left and right
2) It doesn’t provide a DPS increase
3) PvP-wise, it provides a tiny edge in terms of burst damage
4) If this gets “fixed” and ends up ruining hammer for PvE in any way… well, let’s not go there.

thanks for that, Light. didn’t know you could animation skip just by strafing. i am constantly on the move while doing my chain, and or any of the other hammer moves (save RoW). i’ve never noticed it though. can you skip the animation to the extent of Trung’s clip? see first demonstration.

and i agree it’s not game-breaking, but does free up some room for players playing styles, and being able to make quick judgment and reactions in-game. when perhaps triggering a MB is not optimal (when you see a wind up from a boss, you don’t want to be stuck mid-air), or perhaps people don’t want to use two-handed mastery and would rather go 2 chains with 1 MB, but this allows that downtime of not using the combo less. and for many other reasons.

Animation cancelling has been in game and used frequently at least since I started(beginning of beta) not once have I ever seen ANet mention it was a bug or any notes related to fixing it. The issue is quite simply that actions complete faster than animations and breaking the animation allows you to chain into your next action faster.

Is it an exploit? At this point I still say it is not until ANet declares it a bug.

akamon.2769:

i’ve never noticed it though. can you skip the animation to the extent of Trung’s clip? see first demonstration.

You need to strafe left, then strafe right (or right then left) quickly to trigger the animation skip. If you are fast, the hammer can be brought down faster than is shown in Trung’s clip.

Now upon further review of the clip and my own testing. I’m not even sure if it does apply the symbol faster anymore. If you watch the clip carefully, you’ll see that even though the hammer is brought down earlier, the symbol of protection only shows up once the cast bar for the 3rd attack chain reaches its end. That’s the same even if you didn’t animation skip. Could we get someone else to independently verify that there is indeed a speedup in symbol application?

Also, if you try to do MB once the hammer is brought down, but before the cast bar reaches its end, symbol of protection won’t be applied.

@Light – thanks again. that’s quite interesting and will give that a try too – the quick strafing.

regarding your last statement, do you mean if you activate MB before the cast bar for chain 3 hits the end, symbol of protection will actually be canceled? and is that possible as well? will have to try to notice the cast bar then. i usually spam #2 after the chain and have never seen SoP not being put down. but then again, further testing needed.

@Light
The symbols is applied faster when interupting the dodge with the third step.

I dont know if its appleid faster the way you describe it though

MB wont interupt the third chain as you describe, a dodge will!

This is the third way to skip, you can cut a part of the end of the third step by dodging. The animations i tested, several races/professions, applies the effect before the animation ends.

Last but not least, i had a lengthy PM conversation regarding this with the support and here is their answer.
The Support Team does not know if the issue you’re reporting is working as intended or not and we do not currently have a resolution to the issue you’re experiencing. I apologize if the previous response from the Support Team was unclear. Please keep an eye on our official forums (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum) and wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page) for updates on this and other important issues.

So basically its not a known or identified issue and since i had a conversation and they had plenty of time to say it is an issue, but didnt, i interpret that as its a feature until otherwise is stated on the official web.

@Brutaly
I don’t understand your logic of interpreting ‘the support team does not know yet’ as ‘this is a feature of the combat system.’ By your logic I could say that it’s an exploit, because they had plenty of time to say it was a feature. As I said in my first post, its up in the air, so trying to claim otherwise is baseless.

I have been testing this myself and if we are getting any frame skips, we are getting them in such an insignificant decrease of animation time that it is negligible as far as damage output. Beyond that, “dps” in this game is not like in other games where you are trying to beat an enrage timer or kill something before your group runs out of mana for healing so minor increases in dps in the terms of fractions of a benifit are not “worth it” (to me).

What this DOES do is allow you to sneak in a Selfless Daring roll mid combat without significantly reducing or stopping your auto attack chain with the hammer. I.E. “more” healing done without skipping a beat. Also this allows me to “roll in place” so I can stay centered on the combat area I want to be in versus go flying all the way the heck out to left field then having to run my clunky self back to combat.

Personally I have had this happen before I realized what it was and it annoyed me. Because I was in an auto attack chain, i see a big attack incoming and I dodge…but since the dodge animation is cut short I don’t end up dodging the big ugly fist coming down on my face and I get downed like a dummy. Now that I know what is happening I at least understand it and can “attempt” to anticipate big attacks and try to not have them line up with auto swing #2 if using the hammer.

Cost/benefit of this move are highly situational.

Maybe a little faster output on the 3rd hammer swing, and if it reduces a 62 frame animation into a 49 frame animation (a loss of 13 frames) we still end up with an auto attack chain that is approximately 50 frames long…. Is this going to make us unstoppable beasts in pvp/pve? No, we didn’t make it as if we are hasted from mesmers or something. Will this make an extremely close fight end possibly in your favor? Fractions of a second could buy you the win and if this helped then cool

Do I think this is a glitch/bug/exploit? Yes but the question is do they care, and at this rate it seems so minor and non game changing that it doesn’t matter to them. Many people bring up fighting game examples where you say yourself that it was an unintended effect (read glitch) that players exploited to gain an advantage. The only difference is those game developers liked it and we are unsure of how these game developers view this topic.

Although I believe that with the lack of a GM response that this is low on the totem pole and if it really was a hot topic that was punishable by some degree they would have put this fire out a few days ago. By the silence they pretty much say that if this is increasing our combat ability by any degree it is not enough to matter to them as game developers.

CMF.5461:

I have been testing this myself and if we are getting any frame skips, we are getting them in such an insignificant decrease of animation time that it is negligible as far as damage output. Beyond that, “dps” in this game is not like in other games where you are trying to beat an enrage timer or kill something before your group runs out of mana for healing so minor increases in dps in the terms of fractions of a benifit are not “worth it” (to me).

What this DOES do is allow you to sneak in a Selfless Daring roll mid combat without significantly reducing or stopping your auto attack chain with the hammer. I.E. “more” healing done without skipping a beat. Also this allows me to “roll in place” so I can stay centered on the combat area I want to be in versus go flying all the way the heck out to left field then having to run my clunky self back to combat.

Personally I have had this happen before I realized what it was and it annoyed me. Because I was in an auto attack chain, i see a big attack incoming and I dodge…but since the dodge animation is cut short I don’t end up dodging the big ugly fist coming down on my face and I get downed like a dummy. Now that I know what is happening I at least understand it and can “attempt” to anticipate big attacks and try to not have them line up with auto swing #2 if using the hammer.

Cost/benefit of this move are highly situational.

Maybe a little faster output on the 3rd hammer swing, and if it reduces a 62 frame animation into a 49 frame animation (a loss of 13 frames) we still end up with an auto attack chain that is approximately 50 frames long…. Is this going to make us unstoppable beasts in pvp/pve? No, we didn’t make it as if we are hasted from mesmers or something. Will this make an extremely close fight end possibly in your favor? Fractions of a second could buy you the win and if this helped then cool

Do I think this is a glitch/bug/exploit? Yes but the question is do they care, and at this rate it seems so minor and non game changing that it doesn’t matter to them. Many people bring up fighting game examples where you say yourself that it was an unintended effect (read glitch) that players exploited to gain an advantage. The only difference is those game developers liked it and we are unsure of how these game developers view this topic.

Although I believe that with the lack of a GM response that this is low on the totem pole and if it really was a hot topic that was punishable by some degree they would have put this fire out a few days ago. By the silence they pretty much say that if this is increasing our combat ability by any degree it is not enough to matter to them as game developers.

we have to take in mind another thing, that this DPS gain is true only if continue to spamm only the autoattack chain, but in a real situation, you dont use only that. that 13 fps gain, is lost when you move, or when you use another skill.
For what i see, the only real gain we have to use this trick, is not in terms of damage, but that the hammer simbol is unpredictable to the enemy.

Kasei.8726:

@Brutaly
I don’t understand your logic of interpreting ‘the support team does not know *yet’* as ‘this is a feature of the combat system.’ By your logic I could say that it’s an exploit, because they had plenty of time to say it was a feature. As I said in my first post, its up in the air, so trying to claim otherwise is baseless.

First the conversation started at 2nd of November and it contains several pm´s. I explicitly asked if this was a bug or an exploit.

On the 7th of November i got the final answer and it can be read above.

And if you quote, or try to make an impression of quoting you dont add stuff in, like the “yet” above. There was no yet in their answer.

On a direct question if this is a bug or exploit they clearly state that this isn’t a known bug. Considering that i reported it in my initial pm they have internally determined that my report didn’t escalate this to a bug.

There is only one way to interpret this, its not a known bug.

If i dare to speculate, like you did, then the reason for this cryptic answer is probably that they have an internal discussion how to handle it, but thats me speculating.

As of now this is legit, its not a known bug even though reported, but we should continue to follow the forums regarding this because it can change, it might change.

Btw i have a suggestion, why not report me for exploiting it and we can test this in a “trial”. Just send me a pm first if you do.

Brutaly.6257

First the conversation started at 2nd of November and it contains several pm´s. I explicitly asked if this was a bug or an exploit.
On the 7th of November i got the final answer and it can be read above. And if you quote, or try to make an impression of quoting you dont add stuff in, like the “yet” above. There was no yet in their answer.
On a direct question if this is a bug or exploit they clearly state that this isn’t a known bug. Considering that i reported it in my initial pm they have internally determined that my report didn’t escalate this to a bug.
There is only one way to interpret this, its not a known bug.

We are having a heated agreement right now. I agree, it’s not a known bug. It’s not a known feature either. Again claiming otherwise is baseless. Sure you can currently use it all you want, and probably without fear of repercussion, but that’s beside the point.

Since you happened to find a single word to focus on in my statement, I’ll go ahead explain my reasoning behind it, but it really doesn’t make much of a difference to my point.

Try asking support whether being able to jump in GW2 is an intended feature, you will receive a definite yes. I said yet, because the support team should eventually be able to give a concrete answer the ninja-skip trick. Yes, that’s an assumption, but I think it’s a safe one considering that you directly brought it to their attention, and it’s common knowledge that any quality support team should stay knowledgeable their product.

I’m not saying that it’ll be addressed in the next patch, but if I ask support the same question again in 2015 and don’t receive a conclusive answer, then someone isn’t doing their job well. Personally, I would like to have a concrete answer to these sort of questions, but perhaps you don’t.

As of now this is legit, its not a known bug even though reported, but we should continue to follow the forums regarding this because it can change, it might change.

So we agree that we agree.

Btw i have a suggestion, why not report me for exploiting it and we can test this in a “trial”. Just send me a pm first if you do.

Why would I report someone for exploiting if I’m not convinced that it’s an exploit? Read my first post.

@Kasei
My main gripe with your “quote” was that you added in a word which had great significance to the actual meaning of what was said. The word “yet” in fact changes the entire meaning of what was posted and the meaning of what was sent to me by ArenaNet.

Yes we do agree in most parts and its very likely that they will address this in a future patch even though i personally hope they dont, it adds depth and as such i find it adding value to the game.

And as long as ArenaNet doesnt clearly state that its a bug then its not an exploit either and I regard it as a feature, intended or not intended doesnt matter, its there so people can do it and make the best out of it.

Which to me is the most important part of the discussion and also why i think it was a good thing done by OP when he brought it out in the open.

Why report, easy, then it would be settled once and for all and we would get a very clear answer from ArenaNet regarding the entire issue.