Guild Wars 2

It is great that we finally have symbols on Scepter and Sword, but at the moment they both seem a bit overtuned. It looks like devs didn’t want to replace old skills these two weapons had with new symbols as to keep their flavor and playstyle, but I don’t think combining old skills with new symbols is the way to go.

Ever since HoT, every symbol added in game had this additional gimmick in addition to normal symbol effects. Longbow’s Symbol of Energy burned foes and it was ok, even underpowered at that state because of its cooldown and projectile nature. However, the new two symbols added are not really the same. Symbol of Blades: low cooldown, 0 cast time (much more than 1 per second like other symbols), free teleport and AoE blind. Symbol of Punishment: low cooldown, hits multiple times, relatively short cast time. In my opinion they do too much for too little cost compared to other symbols we have.

What I think should be done is adding small gimmicks to all of our symbols and getting all of them into same line. For example:

—Symbol of Faith cast time reduced to 3/4 and now heals players covered in area symbol created for a decent amount.

—Symbol of Swiftness knocks enemies back by a tiny bit when its first put.

—Symbol of Protection cast time reduced to 3/4, damage numbers in auto attack or symbol arranged to keep the same dps in hammer (Hammer symbol originally has a ‘gimmick’ in which you deal higher damage on the initial strike while you place it)

—Symbol of Wrath cast time increased to 1/2 and now Immobilizes a foe for 1 second when they first enter the symbol (target limit 5).

—Symbol of Blades cast time increased to 1/2 (or 3/4 to match Unrelenting Assault) and blind aspect moved to third skill – each projectile of third skill now also blinds on hit.

—Symbol of Punishment cast time increased to 1/2 or 3/4.

—Symbol of Energy arrow speed increased.
Thoughts?

Pregnantman.8259:

Symbol of Punishment: low cooldown, hits multiple times, relatively short cast time.

Literally every symbol

Do you genuinely need a link to wiki for symbols, or actually took your time to read and quote from the post and type such a ridiculous statement? In any case, I will edit what I said to make it more ‘clear’.

Pregnantman.8259:

It is great that we finally have symbols on Scepter and Sword, but at the moment they both seem a bit overtuned. It looks like devs didn’t want to replace old skills these two weapons had with new symbols as to keep their flavor and playstyle, but I don’t think combining old skills with new symbols is the way to go.

Ever since HoT, every symbol added in game had this additional gimmick in addition to normal symbol effects. Longbow’s Symbol of Energy burned foes and it was ok, even underpowered at that state because of its cooldown and projectile nature. However, the new two symbols added are not really the same. Symbol of Blades: low cooldown, 0 cast time (much more than 1 per second like other symbols), free teleport and AoE blind. Symbol of Punishment: low cooldown, hits multiple times, relatively short cast time. In my opinion they do too much for too little cost compared to other symbols we have.

What I think should be done is adding small gimmicks to all of our symbols and getting all of them into same line. For example:

—Symbol of Faith cast time reduced to 3/4 and now heals players covered in area symbol created for a decent amount.

—Symbol of Swiftness knocks enemies back by a tiny bit when its first put.

—Symbol of Protection cast time reduced to 3/4, damage numbers in auto attack or symbol arranged to keep the same dps in hammer (Hammer symbol originally has a ‘gimmick’ in which you deal higher damage on the initial strike while you place it)

—Symbol of Wrath cast time increased to 1/2 and now Immobilizes a foe for 1 second when they first enter the symbol (target limit 5).

—Symbol of Blades cast time increased to 1/2 (or 3/4 to match Unrelenting Assault) and blind aspect moved to third skill – each projectile of third skill now also blinds on hit.

—Symbol of Punishment cast time increased to 1/2 or 3/4.

—Symbol of Energy arrow speed increased.
Thoughts?

Are you trying to get us nerfed?

Symbol of Blades actually has a cast time, around 1/4, as it starts after the attack finishes. The 0 cast time refers to the instant blink.

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Symbol of Blades actually has a cast time, around 1/4, as it starts after the attack finishes. The 0 cast time refers to the instant blink.

Can confirm. I had my symbol interrupted twice on patch day. It’s some knowledge worth knowing.

I have an idea: No. As much as everyone loves nerfs…

I am not trying to get us nerfed, but I am only saying the two new symbols are better than the rest of our symbols. Now, they could of course just slap buffs on other symbols but from the looks of complaints we get in PvP forums its best we dont hope for buffs. Moreover, what good is power creep anyway?

Essentially, yes, I am saying that the two symbols have to be nerfed – but I am also saying other symbols should be buffed so it is more interesting to play with not only sword and scepter, but with other weapons as well. While we have new playstyles with both weapons now, we still have the age old combos with the old weapons – and tweaking the symbols can address to that problem.

No, they do nothing. Just because some things get shiny new toys, doesn’t mean everyone has to get shiny new toys. That’s not how balance works, especially not in a living MMO.

I continually see this idea that everything needs to be driven to equality to be balanced, and I hate it. That’s what FPS are for. We have classes with skills; they are different (i.e., not equal). Not equal stuff is necessary in an MMO, otherwise you just get things different in name only. Personally, I don’t think that sword and scepter symbols are so good they need to have some tweaks. I don’t think the old symbols are so bad they need tweaks either, with exception of staff, which was always a stupid concept.

On to spirit weapons …

Guardian having symbols is difficult in PvP, since people are on the constant move.

Having them being somewhat good and leave people scared walking on points because we control the ground is all the guardian is about.

To be honest, I partially disagree.

The only symbol I see that possibly needs to be worked on is Symbol of Blades simply because it does TOO much (blink, AoE blind, AoE pressure, Fury) for a #2 skill while the #3 skill has always been clunky and lackluster (a bit less post-patch). The rest are mostly fine.

• Scepter symbol is a little better and more consistent version of what the skill used to be but provides the all too common Might buff. It’s fine considering what the rest of the weapon kit does.
• In my opinion Staff symbol needs to be somewhat reworked. Not in the scope of this post.
• I mostly agree on your intent with Hammer symbol but considering it gives protection I doubt something like that will happen.

Every main weapon has a symbol now and they provide different benefits.

Swiftness
Protection
Regeneration
Might
Fury
Retaliation
Edit: Vigor

I’m not sure what the OP is really trying to say other than he wants them gone/nerfed/<insert something else>.

I would be all in favor of some of the symbols on older weapons getting re-evaluated and tweaked a bit, given a function of their own besides just putting down a symbol. Except for Hammer. Hammer being a permanent symbol and on the auto attack is already enough of a “gimmick” for that one.

I can’t say I’m all that fond of most of your suggestions specifically, though. Immobilize on Symbol of Wrath could be interesting and combo nicely with the offensive nature of the weapon, but the rest seem pretty “meh”. Personally, I’d say maybe something like this…

Symbol of Swiftness – Allies within the initial cast radius receive 5 seconds of Quickness (exact duration subject to balancing). Fits the overall theme of the weapon as a support weapon, fits the theme / name of the skill, while giving you some actual reason to use it on allies during combat since Swiftness isn’t exactly great in combat situations.

Symbol of Faith – The initial hit from the smash gets a power boost and now inflicts 3 seconds of Weakness and Cripple. Gives the mace a bit of CC / break bar utility, with the Cripple helping Mace’s lack of mobility and Weakness fitting with its defensive nature.

In a pve sense. The sybol created by hammer is still the best. You say the other symols are overtuned but what about the rest of the class? The rest or gaurdian is a bloddy mess. Retal is the most useless boon in thegame yet half our traits give it. So why complain about these so called “overtuned” symbols and actually post balance that is deserved

No, these skills are not overtuned. Symbols themselves are a very failed concept. In a mobile game like gw2, having such weak stationary effects are worthless. Hammer guard’s pve dps is highly reliant on a stationary/semi-stationary target. In pvp, symbols are the least reliable dps a guard has access to.

If anything, Anet needs to bring up other symbols to the same level. The staff, mace, and greatsword symbols all could use some additional utility. Longbow is left out because it is still a ranged symbol and applies one of the better boons in the game.

I’d like to see some of the symbols re-worked especially around mace and staff. Standing still in a WvW/sPvP game makes little sense.

When I look at other symbols and the latest two, its clear to see there is something wrong. Mace and sword are both one handed weapons, and although mace has a slow theme, mace’s Symbol of Faith has a cast time of 1 1/4 seconds and pulses a mere Regeneration after that whereas sword’s Symbol of Blades have instant (or 1/4) cast time that teleports the user, blinds AoE, and pulses all needed Fury that doesnt suffer from the poor scaling of healing power or anything to be good like Regenaration. It is the same with scepter’s Symbol of Punishment, the extra hits are very good and if wiki is to be believed its the highest dps skill in game if all small hits connect and even if they dont, they synergize much with our F1 unlike any other symbol we have. One way or another, symbols as a whole should be addressed.

I would love symbol of faith healing nearby allies -.-" even if the cooldown isnt changed.

So i can drop the simbol trait and use the +300 vit one

Obtena.7952:

I continually see this idea that everything needs to be driven to equality to be balanced, and I hate it.

I am not necessarily saying they have to be equal. It is difference in roles and strengths that bring out competition and need for organization. I am only saying that all of our symbols deserve the chance to have their nuances, their weaknesses and strengths. Previously, this was handled by associating each symbol with a boon and managing its cast time and uptime. With the new symbols and longbow symbol we now have another variable. Longbow symbol provides Burning (condition ‘burst’ damage), Scepter symbol provides Smite effect (physical damage over time) and Sword symbol provides teleport (movement) – in addition to their existing boons, uptime and cast time – or in other words, doing what other symbols do. I think it makes sense that rest of our symbols have some additional niche to go along with them like the latest 3 symbols, and the cast times and uptimes of symbols retuned.

We can use Symbol of Blades for its movement and Fury to put pressure, but wouldn’t it be nice to use Symbol of Faith for a burst heal and Regeneration if things didn’t go as we liked? We can use Symbol of Punishment to punish opponents rezzing a downed enemy from range, but what if we could also use Symbol of Swiftness for a small knockback to help a stomp instead?

Personally, I feel that the old Symbols on Mace and Hammer are fine. We could add an initial heal to Mace but that’s about it. Everything else, e.g. knock backs or else, would be overdoing it.

However, Staff in general really needs a rework. The orb on #2 sucks and Symbol of Swiftness only works when paired up with other Guardians. Otherwise it simply defies its purpose when it comes to mobility.

Two ideas:

• Incorporate Symbol of Swiftness into Staff#2. The orb could heal and grant Swiftness when passing allies (or pulse it to nearby allies) and place a Symbol of Swiftness when using #2.2. We could then add another skill for the #3 slot.
• Make Staff a Symbol weapon comparable to Necro Staff. #2 could be replaced by Symbol of Faith (or Energy) and #4 by Symbol of Punishment. Upside: Staff would be great with Honor (Honorable Staff + Writ of Persistence) for boon and heal support. Downside: Makes for a pretty dull gameplay and there could be some coding issues when replicating Symbols with different cooldowns and functionality.

@Xaylin: I don’t really think Symbol of Protection needs a change other than maybe the cast time either. I thought what would be nice and balanced and fun to play with and against for other symbols, but what I said are only examples. I don’t really agree with your suggestion, but thank you for thinking one.

I agree that there are many problems other than symbols in our weapons or in general and it may also be that these problems may not allow to compare symbols in isolation, but undertaking all problems at once wouldn’t allow for a discussion either.

Well OP, mace, sword and scepter were garbage tier until the recent patch. From PvE, even with all these changes Guard is not the highest dps and on the weaker side of support, so why nerf anything?! For sPvP, yes symbol Guard is strong, but hardly OP. Considering lack of mobility and naturally low HP pool, a nerf will return these weapons to useless.

Unless by end of this balance cycle (October), the changes proof Guard in sPvP is destroying every one (unlikely cuz it has not happened so far) why there should be a change?

Why are you guys saying I simply want to nerf? I do want the two symbols to be toned down (yes nerfed) but have other symbols buffed. I want to have more valid and interesting choices. How is that bad?

Why should a balance change happen when the rest of the community basically cry for it? Yes the two symbols work and helped guards in all play modes, and may not make guards OP, but do they have to be gamebreaking to be looked at? Is it not enough that the rest of the symbols just pale in comparison?

Change for change’s sake isn’t a good policy.

Its not for the change’s sake, its for the sake of variability and fun. With all symbols powerful, we have variability. When we have freedom of choice, its more fun to play.

Pregnantman.8259:

Obtena.7952:

I continually see this idea that everything needs to be driven to equality to be balanced, and I hate it.

I am not necessarily saying they have to be equal. It is difference in roles and strengths that bring out competition and need for organization. I am only saying that all of our symbols deserve the chance to have their nuances, their weaknesses and strengths. Previously, this was handled by associating each symbol with a boon and managing its cast time and uptime. With the new symbols and longbow symbol we now have another variable. Longbow symbol provides Burning (condition ‘burst’ damage), Scepter symbol provides Smite effect (physical damage over time) and Sword symbol provides teleport (movement) – in addition to their existing boons, uptime and cast time – or in other words, doing what other symbols do. I think it makes sense that rest of our symbols have some additional niche to go along with them like the latest 3 symbols, and the cast times and uptimes of symbols retuned.

We can use Symbol of Blades for its movement and Fury to put pressure, but wouldn’t it be nice to use Symbol of Faith for a burst heal and Regeneration if things didn’t go as we liked? We can use Symbol of Punishment to punish opponents rezzing a downed enemy from range, but what if we could also use Symbol of Swiftness for a small knockback to help a stomp instead?

I still don’t see how what you are proposing isn’t a drive to equality … you find old symbols lacking a particular aspect the new ones have and proposing that gap be filled.

Its an argument of semantics at this point. The way I see it if the old symbols were tweaked so that they also teleported or had Smite effect, or similar effects as a bandaid solution for all symbols – they would be driven to equality. If the tweaks were done to polish and push out different roles for each symbol (just like each book they are associated with have different roles), then they would be driven to balance. Of course, for me, it makes perfect sense for each symbol to have their gimmick effects (the reason I started the thread) but its a discussion thread after all. Why is it that you feel skills that fall under the same category (symbols) should have a skewed balance?

If we want to make a bit support with mace symbol when we cast targets are no longer there and our ally is figthing in other place, people also tend to pull enemies out of guardian simbols (bad rangers im looking at you -.-" ), and the heal does not help allies either.
Can mace simbol be casted faster and get a increase on its initial healing allies???? it is so sloooooow….

Still, symbols ovehall are quite decent on the class it was a very good improvement, atm we only lack similiar rework for signets… and spirit weapons…. spirit weapons if they worked would be so coool ANET… really coool!