Guild Wars 2

I have been playing with my friend for few days. He rolled as a Human guardian while I rolled as a Norn guardian. At one point, I realized that my Whirling Wrath does much less damage than his.

We both have same damage listed on the tooltip of the skill. Also, I have 40% crit chance while he has 7% crit chance and we have pretty much similar level gear.

When we did some testing, side by side on the same enemy, I was usually below the tooltip damage even with 40% crit. However, his Human guardian was able to give the full damage listed on tooltip with only 7% crit chance. Truly Ridiculous.

We tried to find the reason behind this and it seems like for some reason, Norn’s Whirling Wrath miss the target more since the blue tornado like things are spread more randomly where as human guardian’s mostly hit the target.

Can any of you guys confirm this by comparing Whirling Wrath between different Race?

I am extremely mad at this. Now I know why my Guardian was doing much less dmg than his. I don’t want to reroll as Human guardian so I hope this gets fixed ASAP.

Can’t say I’ve noticed anything on my charr guardian. I can hit at around 2k if I crit, otherwise regular damage range from 600-1000. I’m level 80 btw.

What does you tooltip say for the damage? I think this is size issue so charr should technically suffer this problem as well. If you don’t crit, do you do the damage listed on the tooltip? As a reference, Human guardian was usually able to do the tooltip damage without crit.

1,035 (x9). Also just in case, my traits are 0/10/20/30/10.

I am lvl 80 fully geared and I get up to 3,5k on heavy armored mobs/champions…

Maybe you might consider turning off “auto-targeting” in your options, for WW you are required to stand “inside” your enemy for the projectiles to hit as often as intended!
DIVA

EDIT: I am Norn.

As you have mentioned, you do 600-1000 regular damage which is on average below the tooltip damage. From my testing, human guardian was able to deliver full tooltip damage without a crit. Also, he definetely had much less blue tornado thing flying everywhere like my Norn guardian. I think there is a bug with the skill regarding character size.

Any Norn player wanna chime in?

D I V A.6018:

I am lvl 80 fully geared and I get up to 3,5k on heavy armored mobs/champions…

Maybe you might consider turning off “auto-targeting” in your options, for WW you are required to stand “inside” your enemy for the projectiles to hit as often as intended!
DIVA

EDIT: I am Norn.

I see what you are suggesting. What I am trying to say is that Human guardian is able to lend most of the projectiles on to the target where as Norn guardian miss many of them under same setting; using auto-targeting while not being inside the enemy.

I wish I know how to record video and edit them to post on Youtube.

this would suck, I really don’t want to have to re-roll my guardian because I lose damage just because I’m a norn…

@BlueprintLFE

w/ sarcasm I suppose? So you are suggesting that if there is indeed a bug where due to size difference, projectiles fly more randomly, I should not care about it?

Hi Nismoz,

Yes, this is an issue that ties in to several Guardian abilities. Size differences subtly change the efficacy of Guardian PBAoEs, and the effect is more evident in extreme size differences (say, Norn vs. Asura). So Whirling Wrath’s radius of effect scales with a Norn’s hitbox. The bigger the Norn, the wider the area, the smaller the chances of consecutively hitting a single nearby enemy.

Mace #3 and Shield #5 scale with Norn size as well, providing a wider area of cover, so being a Norn Guardian does come with some benefits.

Another poster on this forum—I’m sorry; I can’t recall your name—suggested turning off the Melee Attack Assist option from your in-game settings, which prevents you from running through an enemy’s hitbox. If you position yourself carefully enough inside the enemy’s hitbox, you’ll see more hits from your Whirling Wrath.

If ANet has commented at all on size differences affecting skill radius, I have not seen it yet.

Good luck.

Nismoz.4836:

@BlueprintLFE

w/ sarcasm I suppose? So you are suggesting that if there is indeed a bug where due to size difference, projectiles fly more randomly, I should not care about it?

Huh?

No sarcasm. I’d be frustrated if my norn does less damage than a human because I’m bigger.

Eveningstar.6940:

Hi Nismoz,

Yes, this is an issue that ties in to several Guardian abilities. Size differences subtly change the efficacy of Guardian PBAoEs, and the effect is more evident in extreme size differences (say, Norn vs. Asura). So Whirling Wrath’s radius of effect scales with a Norn’s hitbox. The bigger the Norn, the wider the area, the smaller the chances of consecutively hitting a single nearby enemy.

Mace #3 and Shield #5 scale with Norn size as well, providing a wider area of cover, so being a Norn Guardian does come with some benefits.

Another poster on this forum—I’m sorry; I can’t recall your name—suggested turning off the Melee Attack Assist option from your in-game settings, which prevents you from running through an enemy’s hitbox. If you position yourself carefully enough inside the enemy’s hitbox, you’ll see more hits from your Whirling Wrath.

If ANet has commented at all on size differences affecting skill radius, I have not seen it yet.

Good luck.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read numerous posts about the hitbox of all race being equal. Did it change thru recent patch?

I thought ANet wanted to minimize the race imbalance. I can see that larger AOE defensive skill being beneficial (on second thought, it does not really benefit myself. It is a benefit to my teamates instead) but the disadvantage from reduced Whirling Wrath damage easily overthrow the advantage because this skill is the most important and often used skill for Greatsword build. Also damage difference is quite large to simply ignore it. (My Norn char should do 1400 damage but does only 900 damage on average)

In PvP environment, I can’t see myself carefully aligning with enemy just to lend all the projectiles on him when there are so many other things I have to care about. I really think this is huge disadvantage.

It seems like ANet knows the issue. Are they planning to fix this or they think it is fine the way it is.

Same stats on gear ( e.×. berserker’s v.s. valkyrie), traited/builds are the same? power is the same? and especially crit damage, because i often 7k crits on my whirling wrath. and, while i have only 41% crit chance without food, i have over 80 crit damage. Might be a issue of hit boxes, may be testing inaccuracies due to rng, etc.

Velisong.9543:

Same stats on gear ( e.×. berserker’s v.s. valkyrie), traited/builds are the same? power is the same? and especially crit damage, because i often 7k crits on my whirling wrath. and, while i have only 41% crit chance without food, i have over 80 crit damage. Might be a issue of hit boxes, may be testing inaccuracies due to rng, etc.

We were both level 26 when we tested it. By this, I can ignore any gear difference and trait/build difference. As I mentioned in the thread, we have similar gear and it is not like gear is hugely different at level 26.

Even not considering the gear/trait/build, it is a matter of how much damage do you deliver compared to the tooltip? My Norn does about 60-70% of tooltip damage conpared to 90-100% tooltip damage of Human.

Thank god I didn’t realize this at lvl 80 because I would be so mad. Since I am at low level, I will just re-roll as Human guardian and not worry about it. Still this is ridiculous and should be fixed ASAP. How do we report a bug to ANet?

Same targets? stationary v.s. moving around/through mobs? whirling wrath is picky, and it could still be how the comparison was done.

Exact same target and we were stationary (as close as we can get to the enemy and used the skill while both the character and enemy were standing still). Basically, identical setting.

We replicated about 15 times each and the number above are the average from the result.

You guys are bleeping nuts.. There is NO difference in damage based on race.

Get the tin foil off your heads ..

@Lysico

Not sure if you are troll or not but read the thread more carefully. I KNOW there is NO difference in SKILL DAMAGE between race. However, due to size difference, lending full skill damage on single target is hard for bigger character.

Its like firing a same number of rifle rounds where person A mostly hits the target but person B miss target most of the time thus not doing enough damage.

Some more testing of this would be useful. Try going to the Mists and testing on the dummies there for a while and see if it’s consistent. There’s obviously a big difference in Shield of Absorption for different races, so other skills might be affected too, but I’d like to see more evidence.

This should be easily testable. Create shortest Human guardian and tallest Norn guardian and test the Whirling Wrath skill on dummy at lvl 2. My chracter slot is full already so I can’t do it.

This is not possible.
All characters have the same hitbox, and your “blue discs” are exactly the same as the human.

Obviously your friend is specced differently, or is doing a better job at getting inside the models to get the discs to hit the target.

Did you turn off “melee assist”? That won’t allow to go inside models.

@ Red Falcon

Please please read the thread. I am writing this multiple times by now.

1. We were both level 26 when we tested so there isn’t any difference in “spec”. Also we had near identical gears.

2. I am not sure about the blue discs having the same size and shape. What I am 100% sure is that the Norn disks are flying everywhere compared to Human hence less damage.

3. The test, obviously, was conducted under the exact same condition. Melee assist was both turned on so that we cannot go inside the enemy. We both approached to the enemy as close as possible. Enemy and our characters were both stationary.

4. We conducted a test simultaneously side by side using laptop and desktop so that we can see the differences clearly.

5. Can any of you guys actually test this instead of flat out saying this is not possible? I know this shouldn’t be possible. That’s why this is a bug that must be fixed. Someone else please do a test to confirm this.

Running Tests.
Be back in a bit.

Test subject and environment:
I ran a series of 10 whirling wraths on the Test Golem – Heavy in the heart of the mists with each of the three races in question; Norn, Human, and Asura.

Each character was created, run through its starting quest and then ported to heart of the mists. They all unlearned their traits, did not trade out armor or neck, bought an unsocketed greatsword and reported to the test golem. Melee assist was turned off and each character stood in the center of the test golem and pressed “3”.

Asura height and body types set to smallest.
Human height and body type set to middle “average”.
Norn height and body type set to largest.

Asura – Human – Norn
1206 – 1295 – 1025
1006 – 1158 – 1152
1015 – 1595 – 1042
1064 – 1025 – 1042
1080 – 1103 – 1047
1108 – 1037 – 1042
1059 – 1047 – 1086
1153 – 1130 – 1032
1108 – 1108 – 1003
1008 – 1099 – 1086

Averages:
1080.7 – 1159.7 – 1055.7

Test average: 1098.7

Indication:
In this test humans produced the highest outlying results and thus produced more damage. In a larger test the significance of these may be less pronounced. However, within the limitations of this very short survey, humans produced an average of 9.8% more whirling wrath damage.

My conclusion:
While my sample testing may indicate that humans are doing more damage, the survey pool in the test is too small to say that there is any statistical significance to indicate the obvious conclusion “Humans do more! Look at that 1595!!!L!O!L!”

A Bigger test may give the same indications, but that’s more time then I am willing to invest into a class I don’t play. I also ran asura to see if there was some kind of obvious scaled hitbox issue. If what the test indicates is true, I expect it is something human specific related due to the fact that norn and asura yielded very similar results.

Suggestions for those who want to replicate the test:
Run a bigger test with hundreds of entries.

For the OP:
You guys are in different gear. By your own statements you had 40% crit and he had 7%…what your post should be about is the different stat values for whirling wrath. For a made up example: if you hit for 150 every second and never crit then your dps is 150; however, if you hit for 100 every second and crit for 150% damage 50% of the time, your dps is only 125. Now I’m not suggesting that your friends stats are this different from yours, but you can better understand the value of crit chance. READ: If you hit like a kitten then you will also crit like a kitten.

Final conclusion: If we want to talk about racial imbalances, Lets talk about the norn starting quest. Took me three times as long as the other two races

The hitboxes should be same, but the animation of skills are not, and I’m not sure if it’s intended or not… I would guess not since race should be cosmetic only for pvp, and only differ with some (subpar in most cases) extra racial skills.

And it’s not ‘tin foil conspiracy’, check other thread on this matter:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Huge-Problem-with-Shield-of-Absorbtion/first

The question is, whether the same bug is plaguing the Whirl.

I have a level 26 Norn Guardian of max height (second-most girth), and I notice the same issue. I never deal the full damage listed in the tooltip to any mob.

@ BAMBOO

That was an awesome test. Well done!

I have one request though. Would you be able to run the same test using Melee assist turned ON so that you cannot go inside the enemy? Personally, I prefer it being turned on so that I don’t run thru the enemy and miss my attack. I am sure there are many others like me.

When we conducted a test, we were both playing with this option turned on (not being able to go inside enemy). And because of that, the difference in damage was much more significant. Assuming that you didn’t delete those test characters you created, it should only take you few min. I wish I can do it but my character slot is full.

As for the damage, I was referring to the number that appears when you perform Whirling Wrath, not DPS. Correct me if I am wrong but that number should be the total damage I dealt with Whirling Wrath. I was suggesting that even with crit chance of 40%, I was not able to do the damage listed on the tooltip where as Human was able to deliver full damage listed on tooltip with only 7% crit. So I am very positive that Human with 40% crit chance will do much more damage than what tooltip says.

Instead of adding up total damage, you should use the combat log to count the number of projectile hits. That way you can bypass the variance introduced by crits and weapon damage range. Whirling Wrath hits 7 times with ordinary AoE and also fires 7 projectiles in (seemingly) random directions. The ordinary AoE hits do roughly 2.7 times as much damage as the projectiles, so they should be pretty easy to distinguish.

With a maximum-size female charr, I’m able to consistently land all 7 projectiles on the heavy armor dummy by standing inside it.

Edit: with Melee Attack Assist enabled, I usually land only 1 projectile and never more than 2.

@ Aseyhe

Would you be able to perform the same test by creating smallest Human guardian with Melee Attack Assist enabled? I am sure it will land more projectiles onto the target than max female charr. I was able to visually see this when we did our testing side by side: more projectiles hit the target

Well, I don’t really want to play through the tutorial on a test character when anyone is able to test this on an existing character! Just look at the combat log — show chat panel (arrow in the bottom left) and you should see a combat log tab; and if you don’t have it, you can enable it in any tab by clicking the drop-down arrow and checking “combat”.

Modryn.4857:

Can’t say I’ve noticed anything on my charr guardian. I can hit at around 2k if I crit, otherwise regular damage range from 600-1000. I’m level 80 btw.

Im a human guardian. Non crit and no buffs i hit 1000-1500. With buffs from staff i average 2000-2500 damage at 80. But my gears focused into power.

I’m human female, and I noticed my damage wasn’t near the one in the tooltip as well.
I though “Hmm, this must be the maximum damage if every projectile hits then”.

I didn’t knew you could stand inside the enemy for all projectile hits though.

So, is my human bugged? Am I norn at heart? Because clearly, I’m suffering the same issues as the OP’s norn!

Also, reading someone asking to test about randomness… that’s so random it’s not even funny.

“Because I’m sure that standing at 20y far, humans hit their targets 15% more frequent!”

Are you serious?

Danicco.3568:

Also, reading someone asking to test about randomness… that’s so random it’s not even funny.

“Because I’m sure that standing at 20y far, humans hit their targets 15% more frequent!”

Are you serious?

Heh, for the most part you are exactly right. Testing a random occurrence, such as number of hits for whirling wrath that fires in random directions, is going to give you random results. It’s very much like flipping a coin 10 times, expecting exactly 5 heads/tails and then calling the coin broken when it comes up tails 9 out of 10 times.

Probability happens.

What interested me in this topic is the that youtube video linked earlier with the bubbles. It appears legit, but really it needs to be tested in an internal sandbox where the golems and players can be replaced in identical locations and then compared. There is very little for players to test with that other then “ohh look, it appears that the big guy has a bigger bubble that may be functional or cosmetic since more things get knocked back further.” I assume people who play guardians understand the random functionality of the bubbles when standing in large wvw groups…They don’t knock 30 players away from keep doors.

So why do the tests? Cause Devs read the forums too. Sometimes when players assume that something is working as intended and dismiss it, then the Devs do too. My interest in this topic is that many abilities across all classes are PBAOE based and if the area effect relates to the size of your character then that either needs to be explained or addressed. An argument could be made that larger/smaller characters benefit from inherent advantages and disadvantages and this may be anet’s development standpoint(large vs small in Everquest for one example). It’s unlikely, but if it is the case then a bit of disclosure at character creation is warranted. Preferably before I invest significantly into another character

Anyway, Off Topic..sorta. More Test Data: Melee assist turned on and standing what I can approximate as directly in the face of the golem. While i’m including the Damage included, I mainly monitored and recorded the number of hits for each whirl from the combat log (damage from combat log DOES NOT match what you see in scrolling combat text, But that’s a whole new issue).

Asura – Human – Norn (Number of hits)
874(9) – 758(8) – 821(9)
894(9) – 895(9) – 787(8)
720(7) – 740(8) – 752(8)
783(8) – 779(8) – 741(7)
782(8) – 741(8) – 782(8)
783(8) – 736(8) – 747(8)
768(8) – 758(8) – 704(7)
758(8) – 775(8) – 715(7)
763(8) – 720(7) – 883(9)
742(8) – 731(8) – 828(9)
Total Hits:
81 – 80 – 80

And now, The Char-Files!
Small Char – Medium Char – Super Size Me Char
774(8) – 835(9) – 705(7)
731(7) – 765(8) – 736(8)
838(9) – 685(6) – 856(9)
695(6) – 752(8) – 715(7)
829(9) – 765(8) – 720(7)
768(8) – 850(9) – 773(8)
787(8) – 839(9) – 799(9)
700(7) – 851(9) – 861(9)
714(7) – 714(7) – 825(9)
809(9) – 731(8) – 768(8)
Total Hits:
78 – 81 – 81

While there are some small oddities such as the pair of 6 hit wraths I recorded for the char’s and one 10 hit crit for 2364 that I eliminated(9th entry on the norn btw) when someone else attacked the golem at the same time and it appeared to get double hit by my wrath; but, Overall it appears that results are following the statistical variance that you would expect. Small Char is a little low…but it is within probability.

Also, as a final and hopefully obvious conclusion from my tests is that You do more damage with whirling wrath while Melee assist is turned off. In gameplay, this will amount to a very real chance to do significantly more damage on a well placed wrath to a single player or dungeon npc.

I deleted one of my lowest level character just to do this test

Test Setup:
- Tested at Heart of the Mists on Heavy Target Golem
- Used normal PvP Gears and Greatsword
- Trait points were not spent at any where
- Melee Assist option was turned ON which prevents me from going inside the enemy
- Tallest Human and Shortest Norn were used
- Number recorded are the number that appear on screen when Whirling Wrath is performed
- Whirling Wrath tooltip indicates that it does 1251 damage
- Sample size is 30

Results:
Human – Norn
1054 – 1141
1061 – 1111
1017 – 971
1077 – 847
1100 – 1147
952 – 817
931 – 1130
1010 – 833
1054 – 910
1068 – 1094
1135 – 860
1095 – 774
966 – 1032
1062 – 1240
1088 – 804
1096 – 747
995 – 704
1038 – 660
1128 – 972
1025 – 695
1051 – 892
1015 – 854
973 – 938
1029 – 1079
1045 – 748
1199 – 1301
1080 -720
1064 – 799
1118 – 956
988 – 841

Human Average for 30 tries: 1050
Norn Average for 30 tries: 912

Human damage range: 973 – 1199
Norn damage range: 660 – 1301

.
Conclusion:
Obviously, there is a difference in average damage between Human (1050) and Norn (912). This is more than 10% difference and I think its a huge difference especially when ANet is advertising that Race is only different in cosmetic aspect. More important finding is the huge difference in damage range between Human and Norn. The lowest damage for Human was 973 compared to the Norn which was 660. The highest damage for Human was 1199 compared to the Norn which was 1301. The fact that Norn has more variance in Whirling Wrath damage supports my initial hypothesis that the projectiles fly more randomly resulting in extremely low or high damage. If you look at the numbers in result, you can clearly see that Norn’s damage is very random and usually lower than Human’s damage which is consistent and high. For example, there are multiple 700-900 damages for Norn where as the lowest damage for Human was 975.

I am not sure why my data is different from BAMBOO’s data though. I don’t know why his average damage was in the range of 700-800 while mine was around 1000.

This test is enough proof for me to delete my level 31 Norn guardian and re-roll as Human Guardian. Its depressing and I doubt this issue will be fixed within few months.

I totally understand that Melee assist turned off might minimize the difference in damage but I really do prefer it being on and want to play with it on because enemy usually move around and it is difficult to always position right inside the enemy especially if it is PvP. This means for person like me, I am at huge disadvantage to play Norn character.

Don’t know if it would change the results much, but the next time you do a test use the steady weapons bought from the pvp vendor. Thats what they’re for. They have the same low end and top end damage. Just an FYI for you/anyone else reading the thread.

PvP Greatsword Weapon Strength: 995-1,100
PvP Steady Greatsword Weapon Strength: 133-133

All these do is eliminate the range of weapon damage so your results are less random(since you can still crit).

I haven’t played PvP yet so I am not sure what steady weapon is but I used the free “PvP Greatsword” from the Weapon vendor at the Heart of the Mists for both Norn and Human Guardian.

A few things:
- As said before, this isn’t possible due to the same hitboxes between races. Their may be different animations between the races due to size differences, but I HIGHLY doubt the actual technical projectiles are different between races.

- As said before, check the combat log for per-projectile damage, not overall damage.

- Use steady weapons in the mists to test, not normal PvP weapons. Steady weapons have the same min and max damage, and thus the damage of your attacks will never change.

Nismoz.4836:

Human Average for 30 tries: 1050
Norn Average for 30 tries: 912

Specifically, your human average is 1050±11 while your norn average is 921±31 (standard error of the mean). That’s a discrepancy of 3.9 standard deviations and so if there is no systematic error in your measurements, it’s pretty likely (~99.994%) that the difference is meaningful.

It’s odd that you would find a discrepancy when BAMBOO did not, however. There must be something different between your tests. Also, I’d be more confident if you were counting the number of hits. At least then we’d know for certain whether that’s the source of the issue.

TimeBomb.3427:

A few things:
- As said before, this isn’t possible due to the same hitboxes between races. Their may be different animations between the races due to size differences, but I HIGHLY doubt the actual technical projectiles are different between races.

- As said before, check the combat log for per-projectile damage, not overall damage.

- Use steady weapons in the mists to test, not normal PvP weapons. Steady weapons have the same min and max damage, and thus the damage of your attacks will never change.

1. I am not saying that actual projectile itself is different. Instead, there is a difference in projectile randomness between Norn and Human. Projectiles of Human tends to hit the target more often than Norn.

2. Are you suggesting that the overall damage that is displayed when the skill is used is not accurate? This damage is supposed to be showing the whole damage the skill has dealt including both normal AOE hit and projectiles hit. If this number is high, than it clearly means the damage done is high as well. Please explain me why I should look at combat log instead of overall damage displayed because I don’t get it.

3. I have done the Whirling Wrath 30 times for both Norn and Human. Statistically speaking, if Norn and Human have absolutely no difference, they should have similar average damage after 30 replications. This is not the case here and the evidence are the difference in average damage (1050 vs 910) and general trend in the damage numbers where Norn’s damage seems to be much random and lower than Human’s

Aseyhe.2948:

Also, I’d be more confident if you were counting the number of hits. At least then we’d know for certain whether that’s the source of the issue.

That is a good suggestion but I found it would be too much work to calculate for 30 replications of both character thus total of 60 replications. I could do this but for now, I am busy leveling up the re-rolled Human Guardian.

Although it is an educated guess, I think it is clear that the damage difference should be due to less projectiles being hit because this is the exact reason why standing inside the enemy deals more damage than standing outside the enemy. Another reason I believe this is true is because when I see less projectiles flying on the screen, the damage is higher. Norn usually has at least one more projectile flying on the screen compared to Human.
.
.
P.S. Do you guys know how to report a bug to ANet? I think this difference is not intentional and must be reported.

“1. I am not saying that actual projectile itself is different. Instead, there is a difference in projectile randomness between Norn and Human. Projectiles of Human tends to hit the target more often than Norn.”

Omg you’re really serious…

“Please explain me why I should look at combat log instead of overall damage displayed because I don’t get it.”

Because that is probably the average damage of the skill taken into account X factors which we don’t know. What we CAN know is what the combat log tells us, and check the REAL difference in damage.
Also, what the other poster said, is for you to check for each projectile damage, not the overall. If it isn’t obvious for you:

Human Test 1
Physical Hits: 7 – 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100
Projectiles: 3 – 200, 200, 200

Then you can count how many projectiles hit and see if the variation in this number is what is causing such discrepancies.

“I have done the Whirling Wrath 30 times for both Norn and Human. Statistically speaking, if Norn and Human have absolutely no difference, they should have similar average damage after 30 replications.”

Statistically speaking, you have nowhere enough samples for accurate data.

Run at least 100, although it’d be ideal for a thousand or so, 10, 20 or 30 isn’t enough for accurate data. If you get “lucky” 5 or 6 times in a row, that’s enough to change drastically the numbers you’re getting.

Whirling Wrath releases 6 projectiles. Whirling Wrath, in close range, hits consistently 7 times. The number of projectiles hit, in some tests:
2, 0, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 2, 0, 2, 2, 2, 1… you get the idea.

Knowing everyone’s damage is theoretically the same (same weapons, same build), and the number of hits is also the same, also is the number of projectiles cast… the projectiles of the norn hit:
1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 0…

Counting the totals… 27 total hits for human, 23 total hits for the norn.
It’s clearly a bug. Also, the norn didn’t hit not even ONCE 3 projectiles in my 18 test samples. I doesn’t matter it did 2 samples later, which I haven’t input here because I stopped clicking with my human at #18.

Good job on switching to human. You clearly did the only logical choice.

Danicco.3568:

Statistically speaking, you have nowhere enough samples for accurate data.

That is untrue. As I mentioned earlier, the standard error of the mean for Nismoz’s two data sets are 11 and 31 respectively. The two data sets are discrepant by about (1050-921)/sqrt(11^2+31^2) = 3.9 standard deviations; the probability of this occurring by pure random chance is about 1-in-16000. It’s fair to say that either his conclusions are accurate or there is some other systematic bias in his measurements. Either way, the sample size is not the issue.

Please use the steady weapons instead of something with rng. I would but all my char slots are filled up =/

Aseyhe.2948:

Danicco.3568:

Statistically speaking, you have nowhere enough samples for accurate data.

That is untrue. As I mentioned earlier, the standard error of the mean for Nismoz’s two data sets are 11 and 31 respectively. The two data sets are discrepant by about (1050-921)/sqrt(11^2+31^2) = 3.9 standard deviations; the probability of this occurring by pure random chance is about 1-in-16000. It’s fair to say that either his conclusions are accurate or there is some other systematic bias in his measurements. Either way, the sample size is not the issue.

Thank you for the wonderful answer. I’m a mathematician (not a statistician), but have been using some t-tests in my recent work. It is very robust with low sample size. My rudimentary understanding is that having a larger sample size would increase power/reduce the type 2 error (i.e. reducing the chance for false negatives). If the above data lead to the rejection of the null hypothesis I do not understand why we would need to increase the sample size.

There’s no point in this discussion until someone does some tests using a steady greatsword. I would, but I’m at work!

I just tested this on a Norn Guardian and a Human Guardian. There is absolutely no difference in damage using a steady greatsword on a heavy golem.

Starting armor, steady greatsword, traits reset both races do exactly nine attacks for 17 damage, barring crits or glancing blows.

nldixon.8514:

I just tested this on a Norn Guardian and a Human Guardian. There is absolutely no difference in damage using a steady greatsword on a heavy golem.

Starting armor, steady greatsword, traits reset both races do exactly nine attacks for 17 damage, barring crits or glancing blows.

How many times have you tested on both? Were you standing directly inside the golem? Even though the description only state 9x attack, you can hit up to 14 hits from whirling wrath (swings + projectiles). I just did some small tests on the heavy golem with my average size human female. If you stand directly on top of the golem, it’s a 14 hits with no misdirection projectiles.

Trungalung.7850:

nldixon.8514:

I just tested this on a Norn Guardian and a Human Guardian. There is absolutely no difference in damage using a steady greatsword on a heavy golem.

Starting armor, steady greatsword, traits reset both races do exactly nine attacks for 17 damage, barring crits or glancing blows.

How many times have you tested on both? Were you standing directly inside the golem? Even though the description only state 9x attack, you can hit up to 14 hits from whirling wrath (swings + projectiles). I just did some small tests on the heavy golem with my average size human female. If you stand directly on top of the golem, it’s a 14 hits with no misdirection projectiles.

The damage is the same. It’s a conspiracy theory.