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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

The Dev’s have done nothing to improve this class since launch. Not one thing. Every other class has had improvements (some nerfs too). We have seen nothing but a couple of tiny bug fixes and a string of really unnecessary nerfs. I have seen nothing happen that makes this class more fun to play.

Is asking to log in 6 months later and find your class more fun than at launch too much to ask?

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Ynna.8769

Ynna.8769

If you didn’t find the profession fun enough to begin with, why do you insist in playing it?
Because despite all the issues we have, most people who want to see the profession improve actually like playing it.

“Come on, hit me!”

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

If you didn’t find the profession fun enough to begin with, why do you insist in playing it?
Because despite all the issues we have, most people who want to see the profession improve actually like playing it.

Liked it at first but its not improved at all. If things need to be nerfed fine, but there are lots of issues that they have done nothing to improve.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Hicci.8761

Hicci.8761

Guardian is already one of the most balanced classes in the game. The nerfs are never as big as people like you make them out to be.

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

Guardian is already one of the most balanced classes in the game. The nerfs are never as big as people like you make them out to be.

This is not a whinge about nerfs, but a complaint that they have not looked at and done anything positive at all for us. We have some poor weapons, some poor utilities, some weak trait lines. Do something to improve the class. End of story.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Ganzo.5079

Ganzo.5079

Guardian is already one of the most balanced classes in the game. The nerfs are never as big as people like you make them out to be.

This is not a whinge about nerfs, but a complaint that they have not looked at and done anything positive at all for us. We have some poor weapons, some poor utilities, some weak trait lines. Do something to improve the class. End of story.

@relentliss

Agree.

@Hicci
Some nerf was very heavy(or just without any kind of sense or real explaination), no matter if they dont touch your playstile, with no real compensation to balance where the class lack: Mobility or attack range.

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL

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Posted by: Brutaly.6257

Brutaly.6257

Frankly i think OP has a point, its kind of bad that stuff that were addressed in Beta, BWE and after a launch hasnt been fixed.

Skill 1 on scepter
The validity of symbols as a main tool
Zeal and its uses and to some extent Radiance
One build for everything

Just to mention a few that could be fixed with relative ease.

Im all for nerfing and i think we actually need more nerfs in some areas, dungeons being one of them. Its starting to be thin ice now and they should probably start providing ice dubbs in the shape of options and usability.

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Posted by: Hicci.8761

Hicci.8761

My point is that if they start balancing classes, they will rather drop stronger classes to the level of weaker classes to balance things out. Yes we have our own problems but those are nothing compared to rangers, engineers and necromancers. Class balancing is a tricky subject because no matter what they do, there will be people whining about traits, weapons, mobility, damage etc… We have weapons for different situations. Scepter is clearly meant for pve and we don’t need a ranged weapon for pvp or WvW coz we can rock their world with our melee CC. Only1 who can make your class more enjoyable is you and you only.

Ps. Who used spirit weapons anyways? The shield of the avenger is cool and all but I only use it in fractals.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Liked it at first but its not improved at all. If things need to be nerfed fine, but there are lots of issues that they have done nothing to improve.

Huh… Because if you run (or wanted to run) Battle Presence, this patch is bloody brilliant.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Aenaos.8160

Aenaos.8160

Guardian seems to be ok in PvE when up against less mobile targets,but in PvP it is one of the less useful classes.
PvP is a mayem of dps and speed and ranged dps and utilities and the guardian is just too slow paced.
Not to mention that in order to make it work you have to go for
raw stats.
It’s symbols are too few and too small.
It’s healing can in no way replace toughness or vitality.
It’s virtues are powerful but have very long cooldowns even with 30 points spent
on virtues traits.
So the way it is now the guardian is a euphemism for warrior.With less dps.
And a crappy ranged weapon.
When it clearly is not the best class in close combat.
The warrior is better.And so is the thief.And they both have better ranged weapons as
well.
As a guardian speced as not a guardian,the easiest class to kill atm is another guardian
speced as a guardian.(OOOooooOOOO)

-Win a pip,lose a pip,win a pip,lose a pip,lose a pip,
lose a pip,win 2 pips,lose a pip,lose a pip…………..-
-Go go Espartz.-

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Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

The Dev’s have done nothing to improve this class since launch. Not one thing. Every other class has had improvements (some nerfs too). We have seen nothing but a couple of tiny bug fixes and a string of really unnecessary nerfs. I have seen nothing happen that makes this class more fun to play.

Is asking to log in 6 months later and find your class more fun than at launch too much to ask?

agreed and /signed

“Be like water” – Bruce Lee

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

Playing from a little after release I have to agree. So far from my perspective they killed 1h AH builds, SW builds, STILL have not given us a viable ranged weapon, and have not given us any way to help stay on people in pvp. As far as buffs, alot of them were not really buffs but actually bug fixes (such as Battle Presence being fixed for immunity and correctly working with the virtue trait) However other things such as Pure of Voice are still broken for half of the skills that use it. Also things Like glacial heart, and almost all of the Zeal tree just lay there as dead pointless traits.

Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]

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Posted by: Ynna.8769

Ynna.8769

My first post here may have suggested I don’t think the Guardian has problem. People who’ve read other posts of me know that isn’t true.
It’s just that Relentliss is a font of negativity. I wouldn’t have called him out if other professions had gotten proportionally more love or if our profession was downright underpowered.

“Come on, hit me!”

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Posted by: Aveneo.2068

Aveneo.2068

I still remember the nerf on Symbol of Wrath (10s→20s) where we were fed some BS answer that it was because ANet wanted Retaliation as a situational benefit.

Same kind of BS they fed to Rangers when they nerfed Shortbow and claimed it was to fix an animation glitch (that never existed).

And now the nerf on Spirit Weapons, making them and their traits completely worthless.

Valiant Aislinn – Aveneo Lightbringer – Shalene Amuriel – Dread Cathulu
Fojja – Vyxxi – Nymmra – Mymmra – Champion of Dwayna .. and more

Highly Over Powered Explorers [HOPE] – Desolation EU

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Posted by: Tim.9850

Tim.9850

I agree with the first post also. I also disagree with anyone who says the complaints are not as big as people make them out to be. They definitely are that big. There is no excuse for literally destroying the spirit weapons.

I should also add, I have also not even used the 2 handed sword again since they nerfed that.

(edited by Tim.9850)

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Posted by: Ganzo.5079

Ganzo.5079

I agree with the first post also. I also disagree with anyone who says the complaints are not as big as people make them out to be. They definitely are that big. There is no excuse for literally destroying the spirit weapons.

I should also add, I have also not even used the 2 handed sword again since they nerfed that.

i understand you, Gs simbol build was my first decent build

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL

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Posted by: Indure.5410

Indure.5410

I agree that the Guardian class seems to be one of the least focus classes in getting improvements and we still have some glaring problems, but for how broken our class is in many aspects we still perform well and above other classes.

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Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

…but for how broken our class is in many aspects we still perform well and above other classes.

That’s very debatable and situational.

“Be like water” – Bruce Lee

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Posted by: Alarox.4590

Alarox.4590

To anyone who claims Guardians are fine and they’re super balanced in almost every way… 30 Valor =/= Guardian

I’ve said this many times before: if you like heavy support or heavy survival, then you’ll probably love the Guardian and rarely (if ever) see a problem. If you want to have build variety (viable) and have a different kind of playstyle, then you’ll see all the problems the Guardian has.

To anyone looking at the Guardian who hasn’t played one, it’s probably understandable that they think the Guardian is perfectly fine and with few issues. After all, they see a huge number of effective bunker builds in sPvP and in PvE you can use almost anything as a Guardian and seem to do well. In WvW you’ll see a lot of staff/hammer AH builds, almost the same as in sPvP.

People think being super tanky and full-on support is what the Guardian basically is. This is incorrect, it’s just that almost every viable build on the Guardian involves tankiness and support, and a large portion of Guardian players like to tank/support.


I think this is a very important thing we need to discuss. It’s clear that build diversity isn’t improving (and is clearly getting worse, especially after this patch). The primary reason for playing a game is to have fun. Being able to play how you want to, and have some way to be reasonably effective is crucial for any game. If people can’t have fun, then they’ll move on.

Alarox – Human Guardian
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows

(edited by Alarox.4590)

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Posted by: Indure.5410

Indure.5410

…but for how broken our class is in many aspects we still perform well and above other classes.

That’s very debatable and situational.

We have strong damage, strong survivability, and strong support, when specced appropriately. With some powerful unique skills to boot.

Half the classes in the game can’t say the same.

(edited by Indure.5410)

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Posted by: Ynna.8769

Ynna.8769

To anyone who claims Guardians are fine and they’re super balanced in almost every way… 30 Valor =/= Guardian

This is true, but in casual play other options are least usable and we have (one or two) builds that can be less than 30 Valor and still playable. From what I understand, Necromancers (to give an example) don’t even have that.

“Come on, hit me!”

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Posted by: Alarox.4590

Alarox.4590

This is true, but in casual play other options are least usable and we have (one or two) builds that can be less than 30 Valor and still playable. From what I understand, Necromancers (to give an example) don’t even have that.

True. I rarely run 30 Valor builds; I’ve done nothing but experiment with builds every time I’ve logged in for the last 2 months or so. There are workable builds that aren’t competitive like 30 Valor, which are almost exclusively what I use. In trading raw survival, I try to pump out as much damage/control/utility as possible. However, at a certain point it gets too frustrating. Nothing like chasing an enemy with the GS who has the 25% passive movement speed and not landing a single hit because he has half the brain required to dodge WW/LoF/BB. Things like that don’t happen often, but when they do it basically shoves the reality of balance into your face. I don’t mind not having top-tier builds that match my playstyle, but simply being ineffective in situations I specifically build for (because of inherent imbalance) gets to be too much.

People will of course say “use 30 Valor with meditations and a 1h sword!” basically the other cookie cutter: 10/30/30/0/0.

1.)I prefer to not be completely ineffective in all situations I didn’t build specifically for;

2.) I prefer to not use a build that can be completely shut down by enemies who understand it;

3.)I prefer to use builds that I make and that match my playstyle.

I once considered that maybe I’m under the impression of “the grass is always greener” or some other kind of delusion, and that the problems aren’t nearly as bad as I thought. When thinking about fights I’ve had, I noticed how easily my enemies could have countered me but didn’t. Now that I’ve got another main and I’ve played on more alts, I’ve had a chance to see how easily it actually is to counter most builds, and how extremely good the few competitive builds like AH really are.

Yes we have our own problems but those are nothing compared to rangers, engineers and necromancers.

For the sake of my sanity, I’m only going to respond to this.

At least, on my Engineer, I’ve got choice and can actually make builds that do what I want them to. Yeah their damage might not be high compared to other classes, my base survival might be lower, and there will probably be bugs, but at least I can make it work and I can definitely win by being more skilled.

The Guardian barely has those kinds of choices. Maybe it’s just a thing with Engineers, but comparatively Guardians are severely lacking in that regard.

Alarox – Human Guardian
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows

(edited by Alarox.4590)

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Posted by: Login.5102

Login.5102

try playing a necro to truly understand bugs, useless trait lines and utilities.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

I’ve been acused of trolling for merely daring to suggest a build without 30 Valor/AH. The groupthink bound up in that one trait is insane. Yes, it’s good. Yes, I’ve run it. Frankly I find having 30 points tied up in Valor to be DULL. No, its not required to make an effective and fun Guardian. At this point AH has become full-on toxic to the class balance refinement of Guardians as a whole.

Honestly what I’d like to see is Altruistic Healing live up to the name. Make the heals 25% stronger – but only proc off of boons granted to others, not yourself. Right now its more like Ulterior Motive Healing than any sort of altruism.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Ganzo.5079

Ganzo.5079

Honestly what I’d like to see is Altruistic Healing live up to the name. Make the heals 25% stronger – but only proc off of boons granted to others, not yourself. Right now its more like Ulterior Motive Healing than any sort of altruism.

Kinda lame suggestion. Our healthpool is really low, link this flush of heal entirely on boon on other party members, will just kill the class on solo purposes without any kind of health flush\health pool compensation. (or we will just roll only monk focus builds lol)

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL

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Posted by: green plum.7514

green plum.7514

The did buff Hammer and Greatsword (yes, I consider it a buff) along the way. IMHO, Guardian is doing very well for all kinds of gameplay (solo PvE, group PvE, WvWvW and PvP) as long as you can get past the ranged damage limitations. There is a reason why Guardian is regarded as one of the top tier classes in the game (and if you don’t believe me, try reading other class forums for a change).

Now I absolutely agree that the recent SW changes are way to drastic. But this is a problem with pets in general. Increase their health slightly, make them resistant to AOE and make the cooldown start when the weapon is summoned and the problem is solved.

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

Honestly what I’d like to see is Altruistic Healing live up to the name. Make the heals 25% stronger – but only proc off of boons granted to others, not yourself. Right now its more like Ulterior Motive Healing than any sort of altruism.

This wouldn’t change a thing. It would make AH builds even more effective in dungeons and WvW, and people would still swap to monk’s focus and meditations for soloing.

My suggestion, move either AH or monk’s focus to a different trait line.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Ganzo.5079

Ganzo.5079

Honestly what I’d like to see is Altruistic Healing live up to the name. Make the heals 25% stronger – but only proc off of boons granted to others, not yourself. Right now its more like Ulterior Motive Healing than any sort of altruism.

This wouldn’t change a thing. It would make AH builds even more effective in dungeons and WvW, and people would still swap to monk’s focus and meditations for soloing.

My suggestion, move either AH or monk’s focus to a different trait line.

And with this you only obtain build with both traits. Hammer builds with meditations, no matter if the choosen traitlines are (for example) zeal and radiance, 30\30\x\x\x will become mandatory then.

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

If the OP has a point, it’s lost in the rant so gratz on sinking your own thread before it’s even out of the dock.

I personally don’t feel that just because ‘nothing positive’ has been changed for Guardians, that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes not getting the attention in an MMO is a blessing in disguise, otherwise you get things like nerfed retaliation, Honor 5 and spirit weapons (see where I’m going?).

Now, I’m not saying guardians couldn’t use improvements but if you think those improvements are going to be the result of negative rant threads like this one, you’re sorely mistaken.

Bottom line: What you think is positive change is likely not in the direction that the devs are going to take any profession so poking them with pointy sticks isn’t likely going to get the changes you want.

(edited by Obtena.7952)

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Posted by: Nakoor.1980

Nakoor.1980

Guardians are fine. The way I am spec’d I can 1v1 any class easily and win, it all comes down to skill at that point for me. If they are more skilled they win, if not I win. As for a guardian having a low hp pool, that shouldn’t really matter so stop complaining. A good guardian can wreck with low hp easily.

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

Guardians are fine. The way I am spec’d I can 1v1 any class easily and win, it all comes down to skill at that point for me. If they are more skilled they win, if not I win. As for a guardian having a low hp pool, that shouldn’t really matter so stop complaining. A good guardian can wreck with low hp easily.

Show me a video of you 1v1ing a DD ele who is not uplevelled or a complete noob. I want to see it. PVP is about more than 1v1 anyways.

Guardian class is pretty balanced. Has been for some time.

TBH this is guardian forum. I don’t care if Necros have more issues etc.

My only point is that there are lots of things that could be improved to make the class more fun. I would like to see them put EQUAL time into this.

- many useless utilities
- zeal line needs looking at
- toughness for all classes
- CD too long on some skills
- both ranged weapons need looking at
- general disatisfaction with shield

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

(edited by Relentliss.2170)

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Posted by: Nakoor.1980

Nakoor.1980

Guardians are fine. The way I am spec’d I can 1v1 any class easily and win, it all comes down to skill at that point for me. If they are more skilled they win, if not I win. As for a guardian having a low hp pool, that shouldn’t really matter so stop complaining. A good guardian can wreck with low hp easily.

Show me a video of you 1v1ing a DD ele who is not uplevelled or a complete noob. I want to see it. PVP is about more than 1v1 anyways.

Guardian class is pretty balanced. Has been for some time.

TBH this is guardian forum. I don’t care if Necros have more issues etc.

My only point is that there are lots of things that could be improved to make the class more fun. I would like to see them put EQUAL time into this.

- many useless utilities
- zeal line needs looking at
- toughness for all classes
- CD too long on some skills
- both ranged weapons need looking at
- general disatisfaction with shield

Fight a D/D ele? You are kidding right? I’m in the same boat as D/D eles they can’t kill me and I can’t kill them. As for videos I would get one if I could ever actually find the really good one I fought ages ago. Man that guy was good.

Sorry only answered part of your post. Yes there is some things that could be worked on for guardians, but overall guardians are fine as they are. Zeal tree is iffy, there is alot to work with there but it doesn’t show for much as the other trees do even in combination. Staff I believe does its role well. Scepter I would like to see a bit more idk BAM to it.

Edit: Made a mistake lol. Anyways, shield is still useful in its own. The 5 skill still excellent in fights.

(edited by Nakoor.1980)

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Posted by: Alarox.4590

Alarox.4590

Guardians are fine. The way I am spec’d I can 1v1 any class easily and win, it all comes down to skill at that point for me. If they are more skilled they win, if not I win. As for a guardian having a low hp pool, that shouldn’t really matter so stop complaining. A good guardian can wreck with low hp easily.

Show me a video of you 1v1ing a DD ele who is not uplevelled or a complete noob. I want to see it. PVP is about more than 1v1 anyways.

Guardian class is pretty balanced. Has been for some time.

TBH this is guardian forum. I don’t care if Necros have more issues etc.

My only point is that there are lots of things that could be improved to make the class more fun. I would like to see them put EQUAL time into this.

- many useless utilities
- zeal line needs looking at
- toughness for all classes
- CD too long on some skills
- both ranged weapons need looking at
- general disatisfaction with shield

Fight a D/D ele? You are kidding right? I’m in the same boat as D/D eles they can’t kill me and I can’t kill them. As for videos I would get one if I could ever actually find the really good one I fought ages ago. Man that guy was good.

Sorry only answered part of your post. Yes there is some things that could be worked on for guardians, but overall guardians are fine as they are. Zeal tree is iffy, there is alot to work with there but it doesn’t show for much as the other trees do even in combination. Staff I believe does its role well. Scepter I would like to see a bit more idk BAM to it.

Shield can give burst of hp if used correctly since it counts as a light field. I’ve seen people healed for about 4k hp or more with someone blasting that light field.

Just going to point this out. Light field =/= healing. Actually, Light Fields are entirely unrelated to healing in any way.

Alarox – Human Guardian
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

Just going to point this out. Light field =/= healing. Actually, Light Fields are entirely unrelated to healing in any way.

Saw it, knew someone would point it out, was too lazy at the time :P

Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]

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Posted by: Nakoor.1980

Nakoor.1980

Just going to point this out. Light field =/= healing. Actually, Light Fields are entirely unrelated to healing in any way.

Saw it, knew someone would point it out, was too lazy at the time :P

Eh seems like it does every time I did do it. Might just be some kittened up timing for the heals being dropped at same time. I take back what I said lol….was half asleep.

I did edit main post. My bad. lol

(edited by Nakoor.1980)

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Honestly what I’d like to see is Altruistic Healing live up to the name. Make the heals 25% stronger – but only proc off of boons granted to others, not yourself. Right now its more like Ulterior Motive Healing than any sort of altruism.

Kinda lame suggestion. Our healthpool is really low, link this flush of heal entirely on boon on other party members, will just kill the class on solo purposes without any kind of health flush\health pool compensation. (or we will just roll only monk focus builds lol)

Just pointing out that ANet seem perfectly comfortable with Battle Presence doing NOTHING for the solo player. Its a standard that could be extended to the most over-used trait in the class.

I’d be pleased as punch if they make good on their intentions to give all classes 5-6 strongly competitive builds strictly by enhancing the sub-par options, but in the end I expect they’ll have to knock a couple of percent of the effectivness off of Altruistic Healing and THEN bring the newly annointed alternatives up to that standard.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

I’d be pleased as punch if they make good on their intentions to give all classes 5-6 strongly competitive builds strictly by enhancing the sub-par options, but in the end I expect they’ll have to knock a couple of percent of the effectivness off of Altruistic Healing and THEN bring the newly annointed alternatives up to that standard.

Sadly, they seem quite content to nerf every option available to every class till you are left with 1 or 2 that they can then really control the numbers on. Rift did the same thing, nerfed the hell out of everything till you only had 2 builds to pick from. Its a rather weak and pathetic way to balance.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

Fight a D/D ele? You are kidding right? I’m in the same boat as D/D eles they can’t kill me and I can’t kill them. As for videos I would get one if I could ever actually find the really good one I fought ages ago. Man that guy was good.

One second you are saying you roam around the map laying waste to everyone and everything and when I call you on it, its no well I can’t kill ‘them.’

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Ganzo.5079

Ganzo.5079

Just pointing out that ANet seem perfectly comfortable with Battle Presence doing NOTHING for the solo player. Its a standard that could be extended to the most over-used trait in the class.

Its exactly the opposite.
Traits like battle bresence must be improved to help also the solo players.(even something “stupid” like +100 healing power with the existing effect)

That “standard” as you call it is broken, just because even if you roam with a party, exists situation where you are alone, or where your party is spread.
Really i cant immagine to play something that can become totally useless if for some reason i divide from my party members.

edit:
For AH, after the vigorous precision change, AH have lost a lot of efficiency, Its still a must have, but its healing is already cut down by a lot when you are in solo.

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL

(edited by Ganzo.5079)

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Posted by: Nakoor.1980

Nakoor.1980

Fight a D/D ele? You are kidding right? I’m in the same boat as D/D eles they can’t kill me and I can’t kill them. As for videos I would get one if I could ever actually find the really good one I fought ages ago. Man that guy was good.

One second you are saying you roam around the map laying waste to everyone and everything and when I call you on it, its no well I can’t kill ‘them.’

You challenged what I said by listing out a specific class build. I said that it would be basically us not being able to kill each other. You forget I also said it comes down to skill at some point because I’m spec’d so that I “CAN” kill any class easily, but if I’m not as skilled as them then of course I’ll lose.

Just because you are spec’d with a build that CAN win doesn’t mean you WILL win.

I have lost 1v1s before everyone has no matter what the build.

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Posted by: Dabrixmgp.4758

Dabrixmgp.4758

When you see 4 Guardian/Mesmer groups doing speed runs like Warriors do then the class will be fine.

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

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Posted by: Hicci.8761

Hicci.8761

When you see 4 Guardian/Mesmer groups doing speed runs like Warriors do then the class will be fine.

I think your post just gave me a cancer. What part of GUARDian do you not understand? There won’t be a day that guardians roll dungeons with glass cannon builds and friking longbows. We have a wonderful class that leaves so much potential to skill-based gameplay and if you just wanna compare your dic… damage with others then you better just pick a different game.

(edited by Hicci.8761)

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Odd, I’ve been in guardian-centric groups for dungeons (3 of 5) and ALL-Guard groups in the fractals… and those runs were a breeze. Embarassingly easy.

I run a very agressively group-buff oriented build rather than AH-uber-alles, so those group may have had better role-balance than people typically imagine. And at least one of them seemed content swap to a heal-then-dps weapon set-up when the other maniacics finally managed to bite off more than they could chew. But not having to ever stop to put someone back on their, much less actually rez anyone does sort of speed things along .

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Alarox.4590

Alarox.4590

Guardian =/= 30 Valor AH or a heavy support build.

Yeah, Guardians are asked to come in most fractals groups, and most sPvP groups. Do you know why? Because in sPvP they want bunkers (so 30 Valor AH) and in fractals they want heavy support builds (heavy Honor/Virtues with Staff/Hammer/Mace-Shield) that can also tank and save you (likely 30 Valor again, but not necessarily).

Having 1-2 incredibly effective base builds that everyone wants your profession for does not make it balanced. What it means, is that you can choose to forgo your playstyle and any other kind of build and be be a buff kitten or tank that everyone will fight over you for.

If you want to say screw everyone else, the Guardian is fine the way it is because I just so happen to like the playstyles it currently caters to, then you’re really not advocating balance.

(P.S. don’t reply claiming that I don’t try builds and that I’m ignorant (happens almost every time I say something along the lines of the above). Every time I log in I do almost nothing but retrait and experiment while playing, and I’ve got north of 1000 hours playing the Guardian since beta.)

Alarox – Human Guardian
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows

(edited by Alarox.4590)

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

I kind of laughed a bit at this. The only fully viable non 30 valor build I have seen has been healway. Every damage build requires 30 valor for the crit damage and the self heals. Why? Because our horrible health pool requires us to need those self heals for any type of survivabilty. I have tried many many builds but as it stands there are
Pretty much the x/x/30/20/x builds, the healway builds, and the different variants of 10/30/30/0/0 builds. The only other dps build i know of is 30/x/30/x/x which is posted in this forum as well. Out of all of those only 1 does not require 30 in valor, and that is because it is stacked in healing power so it does not need the self heals.

Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

I kind of laughed a bit at this. The only fully viable non 30 valor build I have seen has been healway. Every damage build requires 30 valor for the crit damage and the self heals. Why? Because our horrible health pool requires us to need those self heals for any type of survivabilty. I have tried many many builds but as it stands there are
Pretty much the x/x/30/20/x builds, the healway builds, and the different variants of 10/30/30/0/0 builds. The only other dps build i know of is 30/x/30/x/x which is posted in this forum as well. Out of all of those only 1 does not require 30 in valor, and that is because it is stacked in healing power so it does not need the self heals.

According to who, though? This is your opinion, own bias, and personal experience, not a fact.

Our horrible health pool is fair-we are not another game’s Paladins/Holy Warrior despite few similarities. Monk+Paragon =/= Paladin class (though it’s fair to see yourself as one-just don’t ask for a higher health pool.) The Guardian Profession is quite powerful with our low hit points as it is.

You mentioned quite a few builds, then say that only Valor and “Healway” (which is an artificial term, as there are MANY, MANY different builds focusing on heals) are the only viable ones (did you notice that?)

Focusing on DPS, which is FAIR, will always trade in some survivability-you can’t have your cake and eat it too (much as focusing on Toughness or Heals will sacrifice something else-this is intended, and fair.)

The builds posted on these forums are not the only builds available.

x/x/x/x/x is not a build-those are traits distributions, and the traits used within the different number combinations are often more than variants. Not every 30 Valor build is the same, even though I still maintain you don’t “need” 30 Valor. Weapon/skill combinations are also part of the build, not just “variations” (to the point you can have whole NEW builds with different weapon/trait selections and exactly the same x/x/x/x/x distribution.)

In short, I do not laugh at your opinion, because I respect it, but it seems to me that you are exaggerating to make your point. Even you know that there are not only two viable builds-you may prefer to play “only two”, but that is your choice (and a fair one at that-just don’t pretend there aren’t any other viable choices just because you won’t use them), and many other players play whatever they want effectively. As soon as we stop looking for whatever is meta and “more powerful/efficient”, and just start enjoying the game with whatever we have fun with, these kind of negative, exaggerated discussions die away.

The above is not intended to offend you, and I was not singling you out-I just know there aren’t “two or three” viable builds,, and wanted to state so; additionally, the Guardian profession has been improved in some areas as well, and people still complain because they keep focusing on the details THEY want improved, being lacking in a more honest perspective.

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

Guardian =/= 30 Valor AH or a heavy support build.

Yeah, Guardians are asked to come in most fractals groups, and most sPvP groups. Do you know why? Because in sPvP they want bunkers (so 30 Valor AH) and in fractals they want heavy support builds (heavy Honor/Virtues with Staff/Hammer/Mace-Shield) that can also tank and save you (likely 30 Valor again, but not necessarily).

Having 1-2 incredibly effective base builds that everyone wants your profession for does not make it balanced. What it means, is that you can choose to forgo your playstyle and any other kind of build and be be a buff kitten or tank that everyone will fight over you for.

If you want to say screw everyone else, the Guardian is fine the way it is because I just so happen to like the playstyles it currently caters to, then you’re really not advocating balance.

(P.S. don’t reply claiming that I don’t try builds and that I’m ignorant (happens almost every time I say something along the lines of the above). Every time I log in I do almost nothing but retrait and experiment while playing, and I’ve got north of 1000 hours playing the Guardian since beta.)

You can still play whatever the heck you want, Alarox. Being “bunker” is not the only way to play, and I wouldn’t refuse you in a party for wanting to go full DPS? I don’t see the problem? For instance, I don’t play most of the “base” builds you mention (at least not even most of the time) and don’t say to people “screw you” because Guardian “caters to my playstyle”-yes, I play mostly support, but my own way, not “Healway”, “AH-way”, or whatever other “ways” people artificially create for themselves in the hopes of establishing meta builds.

Also, that the Guardian isn’t like another profession doesn’t make it unbalanced (I know that isn’t your original point, but many people think Guardians or favorite profession must do everything as well as others professions too-that their favorite profession must be “uber” in some way.)

If somebody/ any party wants you to use 2 “effective” builds, don’t play with them. Play the way you want, not according to a silly “meta” that doesn’t really exist, for there are many ways to accomplish things, and you KNOW this from experience with your own experimenting. It’s obvious to me that you don’t prefer the 2 “base builds” you mention, so just don’t play what you don’t like, but people liking them above anything else doesn’t mean everything else is not viable/unbalanced (at least not necessarily so.)

(I do feel bad for any Spirit Weapon player, because I can’t imagine those weapons being “too powerful” in any way or form, and developers can’t claim they weren’t working “as intended”, as they often do. They were just unique summons, and should not have been vulnerable, as that was what made them special-it’s not as if they were able to be kept up all the time, plus it required many traits to make them more powerful/effective. They should forgo this change, or even improve them a little bit, so people feel more free to try builds around them again.)

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

I kind of laughed a bit at this. The only fully viable non 30 valor build I have seen has been healway. Every damage build requires 30 valor for the crit damage and the self heals. Why? Because our horrible health pool requires us to need those self heals for any type of survivabilty. I have tried many many builds but as it stands there are
Pretty much the x/x/30/20/x builds, the healway builds, and the different variants of 10/30/30/0/0 builds. The only other dps build i know of is 30/x/30/x/x which is posted in this forum as well. Out of all of those only 1 does not require 30 in valor, and that is because it is stacked in healing power so it does not need the self heals.

According to who, though? This is your opinion, own bias, and personal experience, not a fact.

Our horrible health pool is fair-we are not another game’s Paladins/Holy Warrior despite few similarities. Monk+Paragon =/= Paladin class (though it’s fair to see yourself as one-just don’t ask for a higher health pool.) The Guardian Profession is quite powerful with our low hit points as it is.

You mentioned quite a few builds, then say that only Valor and “Healway” (which is an artificial term, as there are MANY, MANY different builds focusing on heals) are the only viable ones (did you notice that?)

Focusing on DPS, which is FAIR, will always trade in some survivability-you can’t have your cake and eat it too (much as focusing on Toughness or Heals will sacrifice something else-this is intended, and fair.)

The builds posted on these forums are not the only builds available.

x/x/x/x/x is not a build-those are traits distributions, and the traits used within the different number combinations are often more than variants. Not every 30 Valor build is the same, even though I still maintain you don’t “need” 30 Valor. Weapon/skill combinations are also part of the build, not just “variations” (to the point you can have whole NEW builds with different weapon/trait selections and exactly the same x/x/x/x/x distribution.)

In short, I do not laugh at your opinion, because I respect it, but it seems to me that you are exaggerating to make your point. Even you know that there are not only two viable builds-you may prefer to play “only two”, but that is your choice (and a fair one at that-just don’t pretend there aren’t any other viable choices just because you won’t use them), and many other players play whatever they want effectively. As soon as we stop looking for whatever is meta and “more powerful/efficient”, and just start enjoying the game with whatever we have fun with, these kind of negative, exaggerated discussions die away.

The above is not intended to offend you, and I was not singling you out-I just know there aren’t “two or three” viable builds,, and wanted to state so; additionally, the Guardian profession has been improved in some areas as well, and people still complain because they keep focusing on the details THEY want improved, being lacking in a more honest perspective.

See the issue is though that specing for DPS as a guardian gets you blown up fast. We dont have the added 8k health that warriors have, we get the better self healing. Sadly, it is all at the end of the valor tree. I have tried running 30/30/10/0/0 myself, sacrificing the self heals, and for 1v1 fights it was great. the second i went into a group fight it was horrible. I can understand sacrificing DPS for survivability, I do that already with my build through my low vitality and loss of boon use.

As I said in my post, i have tried ALOT of builds, as I tend to get bored very easily, and my conclusion is that unless you run a healing power build you are almost required to have 30 in valor. Are there exceptions? of course there are, but out of the most viable builds 95% of them will be 30 valor deep. It is just too strong of a trait line, with defense, offense, and our 2 strongest self heals all in one line. Honestly though I think those skills would be much better suited in the Honor line since that line is almost completely dedicated to healing and support of you and your allies.

Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

I’ve done some additional playing in sub-20 level areas (with both on-level and level 80 guards) and spirit weapons got insanely powerful there. They tank event bosses like it ain’t no thang, and on more than one ocassion I’ve been downed, waited for button 4 to come up, and healed myself back up without being interrupted once as the spirit weapon gathered up all aggro and then held them all while I recovered.

If they would do THAT on endgame maps… rock on.

I did notice that their new status does make them both AH and Battle Presence friendly – they act like extra party members even while you are alone, and definfitely get the benefits of Battle Presence.

I also have a 46th level Guard I’ve just swapped to spirit weapons to see if I can pin down what level range they become comparitively inept.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.