Guild Wars 2

So… I was doing FoTM dungeon one day and I came across my parties chat between 2 GW1 vets. They started talking about how GW2 lacks build viability and how most builds are solo oriented, how combo fields aren’t really doing what they are suppose to do; promote team play and how there were only a limiting amount of builds that are considered “good”. I have never played GW1 before, but I kinda agree with them about the build being viable part. If you look at our major rune traits in ZEAL you can see that many of them are actually pure useless compared to other traits.

Example:
‘Protectors Impact: Leave a symbol of protection when you take falling damage. Take 50% less falling damage’. What kind of trait is that? Am I suppose to lure people into falling so I can kill them?

’Revenge of the Fallen: Deal 50% more damage while downed… Really? When will this ever be useful?

Not only ZEAL, but there are some in other trait lines as well.
Enough with the useless traits… , but many of the traits don’t even synergize well either.

Example:
Unscathed Contender: Deal 10% damage under the effect of aegis. This could be a great trait if there were more ways to apply aegis.

Inner Fire: Gain Fury when you are set on fire. This is highly situational and there is no way to set your self on fire. I though the torch skill would do it, but it doesn’t.

I for one won’t spec anything into ZEAL just because it offers nothing. Condition duration is close to useless because of the 1 condition we have and any major trait isn’t even close to good compared to other traits.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

10 points in Zeal gives you Fiery Wrath plus 100 power, which is an easy +13% damage for relatively little investment. It’s actually one of the best adept-tier traits we have.

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Relentliss.2170:

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Haha, I like your PvE comment. So a guardian is a buffer, healer, tank, and dps? Can I ask you what a Guardian is not? You pretty much named all the roles….

When I’m just clearing maps and doing jumping puzzles ‘Protectors Impact’ is always on, on my Guardian. One of the traits I use the most.

You don’t have to fear ‘dodging’ of floating rocks or being knocked off from ledges by various types of monsters (mostly Dredge).

Yes I agree. I played GW1 too, and builds in this game are a shell of what is possible in GW1.

There are secondary professions in GW1 which allowed a profession to use another profession’s attributes points (kind of like trait lines) and skills, and whatever weapon you wanted. A profession would still be the best at using their particular set of skills, but everyone had the option to use them.

I would love if they brought secondary professions back in some way, but I don’t think it’s possible with the way the professions are built in this game, especially with the introduction of stealth, clones, and other class mechanics.

Imagine a thief/mesmer with a greatsword, a guardian/elementalist with a staff, and a necro/warrior with a rifle. It would be great fun for the players, but it would be nigh impossible to balance with the way things are right now.

GW1 is the reason why I don’t understand people’s perspective on what the guardian, or any other profession, should be. No class should be limited in what they do, but how they do it. The build system in GW1 was the reason why I played that game for so long, because there were so many possibilities. I really hope they expand the build system more, to keep the game fresh in both PvE and PvP.

As for the guardian specifically. Some of our traits are so good that they make all the other mediocre ones looks like crap. The same goes for our utility skills. It’s always fun to try out different builds, but when it’s time to chew bubble gum and kick kitten I always end up in the same old tried and true builds with 30 in valor.

You’ll never have the variety that Guild Wars 1 offered, simply by the way the game is designed. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

It’s also worth noting that it’s not just that Zeal has bad traits, it’s also that the other lines have pretty good traits.

There are a lot of traits that are just genuinely bad for every class. Makes me wonder if that was intentional to limit the amount of potential builds purely to the ones worth taking.

Blind exposure – Inflicts one stack of vulnerability for 5 seconds when you blind. Think about that for a moment. Thats 1% damage for 5 seconds, on a 30 second cooldown that refreshes on kills.

There are tons of these.

Servanin.5021:

Blind exposure – Inflicts one stack of vulnerability for 5 seconds when you blind. Think about that for a moment. Thats 1% damage for 5 seconds, on a 30 second cooldown that refreshes on kills.

If you take Sword and Greatsword, you get a lot more blinds.

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Haha, I like your PvE comment. So a guardian is a buffer, healer, tank, and dps? Can I ask you what a Guardian is not? You pretty much named all the roles….

Can’t actually do all at once as you need specialised gear.

And since your buffs are kinda average and your heals kinda average it kinda feels like half a role of each.

Tanky dps- I think you might get what I mean if you played LOL. There were a number of characters that didn’t really excel at tanking or dps and were kinda a hybrid. Guardian feels alot like say Garen.

Tbh I don’t dungeon much. I am sure that people have a little more variation than this, but I never really feel like a tank or dps, just kinda a mix.

Relentliss.2170:

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Haha, I like your PvE comment. So a guardian is a buffer, healer, tank, and dps? Can I ask you what a Guardian is not? You pretty much named all the roles….

Can’t actually do all at once as you need specialised gear.

And since your buffs are kinda average and your heals kinda average it kinda feels like half a role of each.

Tanky dps- I think you might get what I mean if you played LOL. There were a number of characters that didn’t really excel at tanking or dps and were kinda a hybrid. Guardian feels alot like say Garen.

Tbh I don’t dungeon much. I am sure that people have a little more variation than this, but I never really feel like a tank or dps, just kinda a mix.

The question is not being able to do it all at once, but its about having options. You labeled all the options.

And specialized gear is the point, to go down a chosen path.

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Haha, I like your PvE comment. So a guardian is a buffer, healer, tank, and dps? Can I ask you what a Guardian is not? You pretty much named all the roles….

Can’t actually do all at once as you need specialised gear.

And since your buffs are kinda average and your heals kinda average it kinda feels like half a role of each.

Tanky dps- I think you might get what I mean if you played LOL. There were a number of characters that didn’t really excel at tanking or dps and were kinda a hybrid. Guardian feels alot like say Garen.

Tbh I don’t dungeon much. I am sure that people have a little more variation than this, but I never really feel like a tank or dps, just kinda a mix.

The question is not being able to do it all at once, but its about having options. You labeled all the options.

And specialized gear is the point, to go down a chosen path.

There really are not a lot of options. One or two viable specs is not a lot.

Relentliss.2170:

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Leonard.2867:

Relentliss.2170:

Pretty much. With no ranged option, there is one whole playstyle denied us. Generally, I find we only have 2 playstyles for each mode, wvw, spvp, pve. Each only has only 1 or 2 playstyles.

WvW – buffer/healer with staff, semi tanky ji bomber
Spvp – bunker
Pve – buffer/healer with staff, tanky dps

The core guardian abilities are pretty sound, which is great, but as a result our traits are pretty watered down, leaving us with few really viable options.

Zeal is a bad traitline and Radiance is pretty bland

Haha, I like your PvE comment. So a guardian is a buffer, healer, tank, and dps? Can I ask you what a Guardian is not? You pretty much named all the roles….

Can’t actually do all at once as you need specialised gear.

And since your buffs are kinda average and your heals kinda average it kinda feels like half a role of each.

Tanky dps- I think you might get what I mean if you played LOL. There were a number of characters that didn’t really excel at tanking or dps and were kinda a hybrid. Guardian feels alot like say Garen.

Tbh I don’t dungeon much. I am sure that people have a little more variation than this, but I never really feel like a tank or dps, just kinda a mix.

The question is not being able to do it all at once, but its about having options. You labeled all the options.

And specialized gear is the point, to go down a chosen path.

There really are not a lot of options. One or two viable specs is not a lot.

Ok, what other options do you suggest if its not tanking, dps, healing, or support? Or is those options that you have already listed not viable? Because I am confused here!

Of course I do have a friend who plays the ‘lazy’ option….

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

10 points in Zeal gives you Fiery Wrath plus 100 power, which is an easy +13% damage for relatively little investment. It’s actually one of the best adept-tier traits we have.

thats not true.

it is +13% damage IF the target is burning. People always say its so easy to keep your target burning as a guardian – thats just not true. a constant burn that utilizes the 10% is only applied by VoJ and purging flame – purging flame beeing the best option since it is pbaoe and burns all targets around you.

the 1second burn we apply every 5th hit does not cut it. especially since it will only provide 13% damage on the next one or two hits depneding on your weapon speed.

fact is that the 13% is only true for single target fights. in pve you have to a lo more to utelize the 10% on all opponents.

Asmodal.6489:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

10 points in Zeal gives you Fiery Wrath plus 100 power, which is an easy +13% damage for relatively little investment. It’s actually one of the best adept-tier traits we have.

thats not true.

it is +13% damage IF the target is burning. People always say its so easy to keep your target burning as a guardian – thats just not true. a constant burn that utilizes the 10% is only applied by VoJ and purging flame – purging flame beeing the best option since it is pbaoe and burns all targets around you.

the 1second burn we apply every 5th hit does not cut it. especially since it will only provide 13% damage on the next one or two hits depneding on your weapon speed.

fact is that the 13% is only true for single target fights. in pve you have to a lo more to utelize the 10% on all opponents.

Ever try runes that increase burn duration? Or do I need to make a video on how to keep constant burning…

I’ve come to this conclusion as well. It appears the Guardian only shines in 4 specs.

Altruistic Healing/Hammer (A tanky build).
Spiritmaster Builds (DPS Spec)
Greatsword Builds (DPS/Hybrid)

If Guardian’s 1h Sword and Scepter had some improvements, like combo fields, finishers, boons, or some kind of ‘other’ beneficial effect to yourself (or allies). Then, I could see the class having a lot more variety, and not being pigeonholed into a few specs.

Guardian’s need quite a bit of work. I’ve done everything, with every gear combination, and every spec. The class is just severely pigeonholed due to the traits.

For example, seals are a great mechanic. Why doesn’t Sword or Scepter apply seals or boons? The ranged Consecration-Trait for Consecration abilities from the virtue line is fantastic for support. But, you lack too much in other things in order to get it.

The guardian’s main issue is the Low base HP, Armor-Stat Combinations, Poor 1hand Weapon Variety, and the traits are spread too far apart to build solid builds of anything.

Haseno.6417:

I’ve come to this conclusion as well. It appears the Guardian only shines in 4 specs.

Altruistic Healing/Hammer (A tanky build).
Spiritmaster Builds (DPS Spec)
Greatsword Builds (DPS/Hybrid)

If Guardian’s 1h Sword and Scepter had some improvements, like combo fields, finishers, boons, or some kind of ‘other’ beneficial effect to yourself (or allies). Then, I could see the class having a lot more variety, and not being pigeonholed into a few specs.

Guardian’s need quite a bit of work. I’ve done everything, with every gear combination, and every spec. The class is just severely pigeonholed due to the traits.

For example, seals are a great mechanic. Why doesn’t Sword or Scepter apply seals or boons? The ranged Consecration-Trait for Consecration abilities from the virtue line is fantastic for support. But, you lack too much in other things in order to get it.

The guardian’s main issue is the Low base HP, Armor-Stat Combinations, Poor 1hand Weapon Variety, and the traits are spread too far apart to build solid builds of anything.

Played all those builds and then some.

Mace/Focus for Tank/Heal
Hammer/Staff for Heal/Support
Greatsword-Mace/Focus for Control+Tank/Heal
Sword for point DPS

I donno… should I go on? I found every build I made viable….

You’re too harsh with some builds, and i think this is because of some “lateral” thinking about “cookie cutter builds” and “DPS meters” that reminds me of WoW.

The Guardian is actually one of the most versatile class of all the game, but we pay that flexibility with the WORST base stats of the game period.

I’ve now tried most, if not all the builds of the guardian, even the most obscure ones (i have yet to try and build a burning condition build…), and i can assure you that guardian is viable in any role, and the “efficiency” of certain builds is only in ease of play and sustained effects.

For example, my favorite build, Hammer/AH, a tanky build as it was defined, really shines only if you have at least a melee partner. If you don’t have her, Mace/Shield is way better (try it if you don’t believe me), and in that case, Empowering Might would have to be switched for WoP.

In this game, builds are not “static”. I often change traits during a dungeon, and i have done things unthinkable in other mmo, as switching from a tanky dps role to a ranged healer/support role in a few seconds, simply switching my traits and some bits of armor (which i always have with me).

The concept of static builds is reminescent of WoW-clone games, where your role is defined and determined. Try doing it for a change, do Ascalonian 2, “tank” Spider, Kohler, and the Breeder, and then switch “Support” for the last boss. Without going to the trainer. It IS easier than you could expect, and will get rid of your concept of “builds” faster than a wall of text as i have written now.

TLDR; builds are not static, try changing, even on the move.

TLDR: we lack escape mechanics and good range dps so we are stuck with just a few traits and items to hang in there and acomplish something.

Sorry for the wall of text but its hard to explain in a shorter manner.
Have to agree with OP that we lack a variety in builds but its not cause of traits. This is my humble opinion and ill explain why i think so. Ill speak mostly based on my www experience.

Many if not most other classes can go easy on the vitality and toughness and do full damage setups due to being able to either already having a high base hp or having good range or some form of escape. The guardian lacks both range, base vitality and escape from the start and when u try to fix it with items and traits you really feel locked to only a few working builds.

We are pushed into 30 valor and 5 virtues cause of valor that gives us 2 sources of extra heals at grandmaster and since we have such low hp base its a must. Not to mention 30% extra crit dmg that i always miss if i try somethin else or the extra 4-5% crit rate from toughness.
Virtues give an extra 5 sec of protection so we dont always have to have a slot for a protection applying skill and so this always feel like a must have.

Gearwise i always end up with tanky gear due to lack of hp vs conditions and toughness beeing so mediocre in acually tanking all those high nukes and random aoe that you eventually end up around with. Need to increase toughness by 500+ wich still feels like 10% less dmg. Really feels like im locked up with certain stuff. If i try anythin else but 18k+ hp and 3k armor i die too fast due to this high presence in battle and high aggro. Im always the first target no mather what.

I have all posible exotic sets (burned a ton of gold) and tested all runes and i can never ever go full beserker or rampager like many can due to their escape mechanics or nice range skills. Pisses me off when i see my dmg output with beserker gear beeing on par with my thief friend or warrior friend but i lack his stealth and speed mechanics or warriors hp to get the hell away when i need to. Same with my mesmer friend and his stealth and clone swapping. My warrior friend can afford his high dmg thanks to not having to worry about boosting his hp and has two buffs that give him 9 seconds of dmg imunity and 2 dashing skills and not to mention constant uptime of swiftness from elite.

If we encounter others 4 vs 4 im always the focused one since they cant see my thief friend and cant focus on the mesmer thanks to clones. The warrior is constantly mobile thanks to swiftness and fast skills that keep him on the move. When or IF its time to run i cant cause of no escape mechanics while my friends always get away alive if they have to.
Thank god i picked norn and get snow-leopards hide skill so if i manage to live the 1 sec cast time and stealth then rush away i can live but then im stuck with 240 second cooldown. You have no idea how many times this elite skill saved my kitten I feel sorry for other non norn classes runnin guardians without this elite. If we encounter a bigger group or 4v4 again during my elite cooldown theres a big chance ill end up on the floor lol.

While we rush in to dps and control i watch the party hp bars and everyone is untouched while im the first to end up on 50% hp and then have to back off or die. If im in dps gear i dont even have time to back off cause of low hp and armor and i just melt or cant escape or divert their attention from me. Guardian gets waaay too much aggro both pve and pvp. Iv seen my friends even rush into a zerg by them selfs and finish a person alone then get away from 50 ppl. When i do that theres a big chance ill die due to no good escape mechanic. Conditions get reapplied waay too much so unless u stealth or rush from the focus ur dead. So many classes can but guardian cant.

So yeah i agree with op on lacking builds and variety and i find its not cause of traits sucking but cause of no flexiblity in gear due to low base hp and no escape mechanics.

I think maybe guardians were a tad bit overnerfed regarding hp and that some of our gap closers could use a “no target required” feature. I cud use Judges Intervention or Flashing Blade to blink away fast when i would need to without having to look for a Rabbit to target xD I read that those skills didnt need targets in betas and that we had much more hp.

I do still love the class and what its capable of and where its currently at. Once you end up locking your self to certain traits and gear and your skill is topnotch you do excel as a guardian in almost everything but range and escape

@Hostility:
You seem to know the class well, but why are you so oblivious of our strengths, and instead focus on our weaknesses?

First of all: Why Escape? Guardians must think AGGRESSIVE all the time, because our entire class is DEFENSIVE. I know it seems contradictory but it’s simple in practice.
You have to be aggressive, focus one target and run it down, ignoring damage due to our toughness and resilience, and focusing on enemy weaknesses.

Charging in a Zerg: Did it. A lot of times. We have means to do that and survive, we even have means to escape, but i usually neglect them because a charge of a guardian and at least two AoE melee (another two guardians = ideal) can seriously disrupt an enemy formation.

Escape: Do you really miss them? Well, we have Merciful Intervention (but i hope they fixed that kitten bug). I am not sure, but i think even Flashing blade can be used in a pinch without target to escape. And we have Renewed Focus, now, this is not escape, but more often than not three virtues+RF+three virtues all while moving have saved me much more than a Shadowstep.

Mobility: No, seriously. Please, we have Retreat, Flashing blade, Judge Intervention (these two can be combined), even Save Yourselves! What do you mean by “mobility”? Certainly a thief is much more agile and mobile, but compared to a warrior? What do they have more? A charge? We can “charge” at 1800 range with JI+FlashingBlade.

Conditions: This, you’re right. Conditions are our weakness, we can build around it, but it will be always our demise, along with boon-stealers. Nuff said.

My way: I often play with Retreat(Mobility), Wall of Reflection (Disrupting archer/mage formations while charging), Contemplation of Purity (Condition Removal while overwhelmed)

Some of the things you said about gap closers are right, but don’t be so pessimistic, we have good offensive and defensive capability, and we especially shine in large groups, and in a very specialistic role in tpvp, bunker point defense.

I rarely feel not useful in PvP.

I agree this game compared to gw1 is lacking a lot of viable build options. I think they need to change some of our more useless traits and skills not just for this class but for all classes and later in the future and some new skills to the weapons so we can swap those out so when a guardian runs into another guardian and they both have a great sword they aren’t the same. Also let us use the racial abilities in pvp I mean they are meant to add flavor to a race so why don’t they just let them? I don’t want them to tell me its a balance thing cuz then that seems like a lazy answer to a simple question.

@Hostility.4961

I agree with you completely about the Guardian having little in terms of escape and range and how you explained them. However, I disagree that those are ‘viable build options’, but rather class mechanics. In the context of the thread, build options are the… oh imma tank, imma healz, or I does dps.

I think the Guardian can fill any role the game has designed and that other classes cannot truly attempt. And I think the Guardian can do all roles very well. The mechanics you describe are not really builds, but rather additions to any build.

Now I will double back on myself with a contradiction and strike a compromise in that; not having such options as you describe can constrict a build, esp. in WvW and sPvP. The question is… playstyle and how the Guardian is perceived to play… they class that ‘Stands its Ground’.

@Fabsm.5897

Hostility was mostly talking about maneuvering around in the fight and falling back if need be. Your section on ‘Escape’ just reinforced his point. Did not know if you was trying to debunk him or not….

Leonard.2867:

@Fabsm.5897

Hostility was mostly talking about maneuvering around in the fight and falling back if need be. Your section on ‘Escape’ just reinforced his point. Did not know if you was trying to debunk him or not….

The point is, the entire perspective on “escaping” is wrong.
As i said, Guardians have to play aggressive and be the focal point of hate from their foes, while your mates do the DPS we lack.

We can Maneuver as easily as other classes. Judge Intervention + Flashing Blade can reach even the fastest straggler. We can have 25s of Swiftness with Retreat, on a short CD. We even have an AoE interrupt/pull on GS. I don’t think we lack in maneuvers.

We lack in escape, because this won’t EVER be a viable option for a frontline charger as the Guardian. This is built in the class, you don’t escape, it is win or die for us, we are the last man standing (or falling) in the breach, even when we lose.

Fabsm.5897:

Leonard.2867:

@Fabsm.5897

Hostility was mostly talking about maneuvering around in the fight and falling back if need be. Your section on ‘Escape’ just reinforced his point. Did not know if you was trying to debunk him or not….

The point is, the entire perspective on “escaping” is wrong.
As i said, Guardians have to play aggressive and be the focal point of hate from their foes, while your mates do the DPS we lack.

We can Maneuver as easily as other classes. Judge Intervention + Flashing Blade can reach even the fastest straggler. We can have 25s of Swiftness with Retreat, on a short CD. We even have an AoE interrupt/pull on GS. I don’t think we lack in maneuvers.

We lack in escape, because this won’t EVER be a viable option for a frontline charger as the Guardian. This is built in the class, you don’t escape, it is win or die for us, we are the last man standing (or falling) in the breach, even when we lose.

The point is, the entire perspective on “escaping” is wrong."

No his perspective on escaping is spot on. Escaping is, by defining itself… escaping, no perspective on it. Even you understand this; “We lack in escape…”

Next is context. His entire post was about not being able to escape. Then you address his context with your little statement about escaping, which only reinforced what he stated.

Now his opinion on the matter is that a Guardian should have better escape options instead of using the shout skill, ’I’m Left Behind!‘. In this context, his opinion is no less than yours vs. ’Stand Your Ground!’

Leonard gets what i mean and heres my view on your posts Fabsm and i get what you are saying but dont agree

We are just a class liek every other in gw2 with same rights and we deserve same things or close to it in some way or another. We dont need stelth or anythin but we dont need to be a dedicated repair paying cannonfodder either. 1 man left to die while 4 easly get away. This is a game not some action drama movie xD
No mather how you look at it escape is a feature guardian lacks in 90% of its current form.

Its not right that guardian dies first or last and has to be left behind only to respawn pay repairs and run back to his group that got away due to mechanics of the game and not the player skill lvl.
Also by trying to avoid death just to last in the battle we are forced to focus on tanking waaay too much to cover the lack of stats and escape mechanics. While others go full on dps (beserker for ex) we cant do that. Go full beserk with a group of 5vs5 and you will 100% be dead first while the thief will 2-3 shot a target and stealth, mesmer wont get focused cause theres clones runnin around confusing ppl, elementalist will out tank you and outdmg you (seen elementalists in tier1 screw around with 20 ppl for long time and get away lol). Warrior will kill 2 ppl with his dps then tank 3 with his 25k+ hp and 3k armor then buff dmg imunity and dash away. Iv seen all this happen on daily bases around me. Ppl with full on dps 11-25k hp depending on class get away while i “THE TANK” am not tanking enough acually and cant follow to retreat lol. When i focus on “guarding” i get even more aggro cause of flashy skills and ppl go “oh theres the guardian get him”. So even when we go tank mode we aint tanky enough or surviving long enough. So why go tank in the end? Only way to be present in the battle really. Cant dps without tanking but die with wich ever eventually. Lesser of two evils i guess. Still havin fun tho no mather what thanks to occasional wall of reflection to cover my kitten first then snowleopard stealth escape.

I can play almost any other class the way i play guardian with crazy aoe dmg and controls and knockbacks and what not. If i decide not to use stealth or clones or ride lightning or rush away with 5 second 0 dmg or mist form or whatever i will end up in the same situation as u describe guardian: last man standing then dead man on the floor. Waving to your party from the floor while they dissapear to refresh health and engage again pretty dam soon. Hero by choice? No, hero by must. Guardian does really remind me of action drama movies.

Its not right by any game design we shud die first due to higher aggro cause of our battlefield presence wich is not due to our dmg or threatlevel. Any class can be and is a threat some even higher than guardians. We are just there like everyone else pulling and pushing and then kitten hits the fan ppl die but we are forced to it due to no escape.

When i play a guardian i am always on the front line or midrange/between or in the center of aggro, splitting ppl/zergs up with my utilities. Iv done such crazy stuff u wouldnt belive cause guardian is awesome front line pusher. Our Aoe dmg is just insane. Iv managed to combo 12k+ dmg aoe in 2-3 seconds just with focus shield of wrath 6-7k crits and hammer mighty blow 5k+ crits. GS is also crazy. I basicly love every weapon guardian has and switch between constantly cause i cant decide wich is better xD So i know all about where we shine
Take this as somethin of a tip to test out on guardian. I dont use condition removers as i find them pointless with the current condition system. It just reapplies way too constantly and stacks too long really. I hate beeing imobilized for 10 seconds. So after extensive use of them i dumped the whole clense conditions skills and am now using rune of melandru and -40% condition duration 70vit food for a total -65% condition duration wich i can testify helps a toooon more than just removing conditions once or twice only to have them reapplied 1 second later. Hell even arrowcart spammage isnt bothering me when i use this.

Judges intervention and Flashing blade both require a target. They didnt need one in beta from what iv read on forum. Maybe thats why we lack escape. I dunno. Prolly revert it back if posiblle so we can turn cam and port 1200+ range like any other class without lookin for a rabbit. Most of the time theres just no chance to do this. I dont want luck on my side to hope to accomplish somethin.

Tested mecrifull intervention and its still the same. I get ported to no where i want to be 99.999% of the time i can tell you that.

Imagine how much more configurations in gear and traits you could use with a decent escape mechanic. I can be like a thief for 10 seconds with full beserker dps gear and dps traits and pop snow leopard to get away…..fun buuuut 240 sec cd -.- and norn based.

We are badly derailing from the original thread, so i don’t know how long can we continue without being OT all the times.

I see your (and Leonard’s) point, but not your tactics. If the tactics of your group are “hit and run”, why are you running with them? Our class is not suited to this tactic (and it’s not the only one, think about necros, or engineers).

Your group could find a sound tactic to make you useful and needed in it, not a liability to be sacrificed only because we “lack in escape”: and, with good tactics, we shouldn’t be forced to “go tank”, we could go flailing about in full dps and 30 zeal (ideal, but possible).

Even in tanky build, a good group focus fire + CC tactic will work wonders in your survivability. You will then be the focal point of the attack, the “main assist” to paraphrase WoW lingo.

These tactics will minimize the need for escape (that we lack), and in that case, we could use our long lasting norn elite CD or burning all our utilities and do a dash (there is little that can stop me if i run Retreat, SYG, and WoR plus RF).

But we won’t need them at any encounter, because the group tactics will be much more suited to you.

We aren’t forced in determined build, but often our groups force us to do that to ease their work, when all contributions should be equal.

That makes sense even in answering original poster: there are lots of builds, but we tend to consider “viable” only the ones that let us be accepted more easily by groups.

I dont think we are offtopic at all since im trying to say and connect the lack of viable builds freedom to lack of escape mechanics. Beeing forced to pick survival traits and gear means less variety. Imagine how much more flexible you could be without the need to focus on surviving through gear and traits but instead surviving through some mechanic like higher hp or some form of diverting or losing focus like with stealth or acually beeing able to leap 1200 to a safer distance of your choice when u need to.

There’s too much “forced” even while havin allot of “flexible” when it comes to guardian imo. Even in larger group the mentioned classes can escape easly except the guardian unless he stelths or diverts the focus somehow by luck. Other clases have natural skills or a huge health pool to get away. We dont. Not even 45% dmg drop with 3k armor saves me from 10 second imobilze, 10 second cripple and so on large group small group or seige or whatever. I’v experienced the same lack of escape in all www situations. I have on so many ocassions had to say on teamspeak “get the hell out i cant im rooted and all on cd”. Way too many times.

Some classes do have it allot easier than others. Ill try and put them in a ladder based on escape survivabilty. Remember alos that if made norn all of these classes can have an elite skill with stealth and dash to add to their escape:

Thief (stelth, shortbow)
Mesmer (stelth, clones diversion, portal)
Warrior (high swiftness up time, high hp and armor, 0 dmg skill and blocks and dashing)
Elementalist (earth skills for knockbacks, air skills like ride lighting and knockback, pick a spot teleport skil, not to mention the ability to have 98% less duration from conditions like imobilize chill and cripple if setup right-.-)
Engineer (not so fermiliar to me but i read they got stealth)
Ranger (transfer dmg to pet and start runnin lol)
Guardian (stealth if norn, 3 second immunity, one 600 dash, 3 teleports all need a target)

Dont even get me started on if the class is a mini asura xD. “is that a person or a pet O.o” This also could add to limitations in builds and push a norn giant or somethin big like charr to go more defensive than offensive all the time. So anoying with mini asuras i dont understand what anet was thinkin really. K this was a bit off topic

I find all other classes escape techniques better than guardians. I still will play the class as i love it for what it is even now but theres no need to not state an opinion Just cause we are “fine” doesnt mean we shudnt ask to be improved in areas other classes are

Here is the root of all issues w/ Guardian:

- You have to spec 0/0/30/15/0 for any kind of survivability.

Reason being, Survivability is our ‘Escape’: A poor one at that becasue the reality is it just prolongs death unless you’re fighting near a keep/tower to run into.

The point is this: Other classes inherently have escape mechinicsm in thier weapon skills or attached to thier weapon skills.

This could be in the form of Stealth, Blinks, Slows/Roots/Imob, Charges, Invulnerables etc.

The key to these is the majority of other classes ~do not have to have an enemy targeted to use this abilities~.

You truely need to be the Agressor with the Guardian. Even with the Scepter (which is bad, but not as bad when you start using in within 600r), you need to be in thier face, not at 900+.

The class does not do good/great (it does ok, i guess) with Full Zerker Gear/Jewelry and any for of x/x/0/0/x build. Glass Cannon build = Dead on Sight. There is ZERO escaping and outside of killing all.