Guild Wars 2

So, where is our place in raids, dear guardians. Currently, I see none, give the fact, that mesmers, revenants and druids have much better support than us + they get a lot more. I kept thinking about this, and the question is, is it time to reroll?

As someone who tried the raid on the last BWE i can pretty much confirm your fears and my reasons for most likely rerolling.

Right now there is absolutely NOTHING a guardian brings that makes him a desirable raid member.

But but but Aegis!

True, HOWEVER, from what i experienced last raid, all 1 shots were linked to raid mechanics and could not be mitigated, only prevented through fulfilling certain conditions. Like having 4 people standing in 1 spot would prevent the AoE, otherwise its a party wipe.

Bosses had MULTIPLE sources of damage, and this is probably the most important factor that throws aegis out of the window. Encounters involved facing 3 minibosses at the same time, or having pulsing damage from multiple sources (orbs). Damage did not come on single slow hits, like say Archdiviner.

Midway through the raid i actually started to feel worthless and really wondered why i was on a guardian instead of something with more utility, healing, or support

Protection together with aegis might as well have not been there. All it mattered was our druid who topped everyone up like no tomorrow. Reflects were also not an issue at all.

Now lets compare it with chronos that have HUUUUUUGE utility through aclarity and you start seeing how pathetic the guardian is right now.

Reapers are twice as tanky and provide superior DPS ESPECIALLY with gravedigger spam once boss drops below 50.

Really guys…i didn’t think it would be this bad untill i tried raid.

Maybe i don’t know how to play guardian after 4k hours on one…

Guardian is dead for raids, but it’s still good on fractals, though not for long if they decide to nerf burning, and even then we will be replaced by Chronomancers and Revenants so rerolling might be a good idea (Thief has the same problem because of Ranger).

Aegis, reflection/barriers, and allied burst healing, off the top of my head. I haven’t actually played a raid yet though, so I can’t comment with surety.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Aegis, reflection/barriers, and allied burst healing, off the top of my head. I haven’t actually played a raid yet though, so I can’t comment with surety.

Aegis: I already went over it. Instead of getting hit once every 2-3 sec like vs archdiviner it would be kittens every 1. Boss also was hitting like a wet noodle, so any class would face tank him. The problem was preventing AoE 1 shots by standing in select areas and by avoiding the orbs which could hit for like 1-2k

Reflect/barrier: Not needed. Besides, Rev is better at blocking projectiles as its built into hammer, 6 sec duration, 12 sec cooldown.

Allied burst healing: Druid surpassed the guardian in heal by about 10x, i am not even kidding. A single druid would keep the whole raid up. There is a reason they are changing druid healing coefficients a little bit.

Before playing the raid, i was thinking we would have to stack guardians/eles. But after playing it i can tell you will need

Chronos: Acclarity is HUUGE

Engie/scrapper: Good DPS and Condi which is a MUST for raids.

Druids: No explanation needed. A druid with 0 healing power would heal better than a full cleric guard and also provide SUPERIOR DPS to any cleric classes

Herald: Pulsing might,fury,prot,regen, reflects. superior single target DPS due to shiry swiftness and 50% INCREASED BOON DURATION AURA

Reaper: Good melee DPS and tankability in 1. Can soak hits nicely. Once boss hits 50%, gravedigger pushes DPS above any class.

+/- Tempest: Does more of what the ele already offers. Not a must but a good addition.

idk I didn’t have any problem when I played it. I run DPS, which is definitely an important role to have a few people filling. I think you guys are over-estimating the importance of everybody bringing a special mechanic to the table; I really doubt you’re ever going to get snubbed just for being a Guardian. Just because other classes can do X, Y, or Z a little better doesn’t mean you won’t be able to find a group, especially when coordinating with your group before going in is very important.

Feel free to roll another toon though; there’s a reason some people keep 80’s of every profession, and if you’ve been playing a while, and do your dailies often, you should have plenty of free XP to level new characters with.

We only saw the first boss in the raid, Other bosses likely will have different mechanics. I’d hold off on the doom and gloom until we see those other boss fights.

I can see Guardians being valuable for aegis and allied stability, but Guardians will definitely be less valuable in PvE than they’ve been. Especially if new mob mechanics will rely on mobile combat. We’ve always been bottom of the barrel at damage/support on the go.

There’s plenty of opportunity for Guardians to carve a niche. Doom saying well get you nowhere.

I don’t recall Guardians ever really being known for their burst healing. Most of what they do is heal over time.
Guardians can bring lots of Burning which is safer than most power options. Also, Aegis is still going to prevent damage, and you can trait it for many effects. You can tank easily with AH and symbols/shouts. This AH build van easily be a good self sustaining tank with different kinds of options depending on content. This hybrid build provides tons of damage and can do so safely from range. Either could easily be welcome in a raid.

Ghotistyx.6942:

There’s plenty of opportunity for Guardians to carve a niche. Doom saying well get you nowhere.

I don’t recall Guardians ever really being known for their burst healing. Most of what they do is heal over time.
Guardians can bring lots of Burning which is safer than most power options. Also, Aegis is still going to prevent damage, and you can trait it for many effects. You can tank easily with AH and symbols/shouts. This AH build van easily be a good self sustaining tank with different kinds of options depending on content. This hybrid build provides tons of damage and can do so safely from range. Either could easily be welcome in a raid.

Did you try the raid during BWE3?

I did not have the opportunity to play myself, no.

Yes, it’s time to reroll. No reason to stay on this sinking ship

Ghotistyx.6942:

I did not have the opportunity to play myself, no.

Then you probably shouldn’t be commenting or rebutting my argument.

Let me re-phrase the convo…

I agree there doesn’t seem to be anything we will be BEST at, my question is are we TERRIBLE at everything. Only way I will switch mains is if we SUCK, simply not being the best is not that important to me if I enjoy my character.

Hunter.4783:

Ghotistyx.6942:

I did not have the opportunity to play myself, no.

Then you probably shouldn’t be commenting or rebutting my argument.

Hey, for all I know you are, in fact, bad despite your 4k hour boast. It invalidates neither of our opinions. Just because you’ve played the raid doesn’t make you an authority on anything related. You don’t get immunity from scrutiny.

Garimeth.8725:

Let me re-phrase the convo…

I agree there doesn’t seem to be anything we will be BEST at, my question is are we TERRIBLE at everything. Only way I will switch mains is if we SUCK, simply not being the best is not that important to me if I enjoy my character.

You’ll still very much be able to play a Guardian in PvE. It won’t be terrible at everything, but you’ll just end up being an aegis bot, for the most part.

Hunter.4783:

Then you probably shouldn’t be commenting or rebutting my argument.

Did you try more then a single raid boss?
No? Yet you’re making arguments about raids as a whole based on such an incredibly small amount of raid experience.

The thing is, people can still have worthwhile perspectives and ideas even if they haven’t tried something themselves, or have had little experience with it. You can understand the rules of baseball and know what a good play is even if you’ve never touched a baseball bat in your life.
There’s no need to be dismissive like that. If you take issue with the point someone made, address that point. Don’t ignoring it and attack them instead.

Hunter.4783:

As someone who tried the raid on the last BWE i can pretty much confirm your fears and my reasons for most likely rerolling.

Right now there is absolutely NOTHING a guardian brings that makes him a desirable raid member.

But but but Aegis!

True, HOWEVER, from what i experienced last raid, all 1 shots were linked to raid mechanics and could not be mitigated, only prevented through fulfilling certain conditions. Like having 4 people standing in 1 spot would prevent the AoE, otherwise its a party wipe.

Bosses had MULTIPLE sources of damage, and this is probably the most important factor that throws aegis out of the window. Encounters involved facing 3 minibosses at the same time, or having pulsing damage from multiple sources (orbs). Damage did not come on single slow hits, like say Archdiviner.

Midway through the raid i actually started to feel worthless and really wondered why i was on a guardian instead of something with more utility, healing, or support

Protection together with aegis might as well have not been there. All it mattered was our druid who topped everyone up like no tomorrow. Reflects were also not an issue at all.

Now lets compare it with chronos that have HUUUUUUGE utility through aclarity and you start seeing how pathetic the guardian is right now.

Reapers are twice as tanky and provide superior DPS ESPECIALLY with gravedigger spam once boss drops below 50.

Really guys…i didn’t think it would be this bad untill i tried raid.

Maybe i don’t know how to play guardian after 4k hours on one…

Tried the raid as a guardian & must say hunter is right.

Pretty much every mechanic needed for the first boss is done much better by someone else.

Really at this point all the guardian does better then others is aoe stability & some AOE quickness.
Reflects, AOE healing, projectile blocks, condition damage etc… are all done much better by others.

Unless the other bosses have allot of need for stability I doubt how much a guardian will be wanted vs other specs.

Black Box.9312:

Garimeth.8725:

Let me re-phrase the convo…

I agree there doesn’t seem to be anything we will be BEST at, my question is are we TERRIBLE at everything. Only way I will switch mains is if we SUCK, simply not being the best is not that important to me if I enjoy my character.

You’ll still very much be able to play a Guardian in PvE. It won’t be terrible at everything, but you’ll just end up being an aegis bot, for the most part.

Sorry I should have specified I mean the raid, obviously we will continue to be at least as proficient in any existing content as we are now – and right now I feel like I do fine comparatively speaking.

I’m not really a number cruncher – does our DPS suck? Does our ability to tank suck? I won’t ask about healing since I know that’s gonna go to druid anyway. I guess what I am saying, is if playing guardian is actually a hindrance to my guild, I’d probably play something else – but if I’m just a mediocre choice, I’ll be fine with that and make up for it by being a proficient player.

Arewn.2368:

The thing is, people can still have worthwhile perspectives and ideas even if they haven’t tried something themselves, or have had little experience with it. You can understand the rules of baseball and know what a good play is even if you’ve never touched a baseball bat in your life.
There’s no need to be dismissive like that. If you take issue with the point someone made, address that point. Don’t ignoring it and attack them instead.

Wow. I wish you had been here a week ago, when I was getting chewed the kitten out.

Garimeth.8725:

I’m not really a number cruncher – does our DPS suck? Does our ability to tank suck? I won’t ask about healing since I know that’s gonna go to druid anyway. I guess what I am saying, is if playing guardian is actually a hindrance to my guild, I’d probably play something else – but if I’m just a mediocre choice, I’ll be fine with that and make up for it by being a proficient player.

Nothing of what we can do sucks, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. We can still do high damage, we can easily tank, and we can even heal fairly well. You and your guild will need to work around what each of you individually bring, both character-wise and skill-wise (y’know, just like any group content or even any team based activity). Guardians can contribute, and contribute well, to every aspect of GW2 combat. Do what you need to, but don’t let your opinions be swayed by people who usually are trying to compete with the Dead Sea for sodium content.

Black Box.9312:

Wow. I wish you had been here a week ago, when I was getting chewed the kitten out.

I should’ve been there for you. I’m in a similar position as yourself, just with an opposite outlook on DH. Sorry about that.

I think people thought they figure out the whole raid thing way too early.

All we know currently is one part of raid with one boss.
There could very likely be future raids that involve heavy projectiles, hard hitting one shot mechanic (boss does 99999 damage if not dodged/blocked), periodic area CC (promotes stability), and so on.

It’s way too early to judge whether a class would be good for raid or not.

It really depends if you are willing to switch toons during the raid and what lvl of min/maxing you are trying to achieve. I did try the raid for about 6h, it’s not much but it gave me enough time to experiment with the guardian (not the rofl dh).
For the first boss i think we are going to be switched out with other professions, in high end groups. Herald will take care of the perma 25 might/fury, druid will take care of the healing (druid heals while dealing damage!!), chronomancer will take care of the quickness and alacrity.
Reflects are a non issue for that boss, same for aegis. CCs are important for the seekers; but you can apparently ignore them, thanks to the druid heals (haven’t tested this).
So yeah..i’d say switch to another profession for that boss. For the rest of the raid it’s too soon to say.

I like the guardian and have been playing it since the first year exclusively; but i don’t feel like being an hindrance to the raid, so i will switch it out when not needed (vale guardian).

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Tried the raid as a guardian & must say hunter is right.

Pretty much every mechanic needed for the first boss is done much better by someone else.

Really at this point all the guardian does better then others is aoe stability & some AOE quickness.
Reflects, AOE healing, projectile blocks, condition damage etc… are all done much better by others.

Unless the other bosses have allot of need for stability I doubt how much a guardian will be wanted vs other specs.

For me the worst part of the raid was that none of our utilities worked.

• Wall of Reflection didn’t reflect anything
• Stability didn’t prevent me from getting teleported (if I recall correctly)
• Blinds are useless on champions
• Too much AOE spam for aegis to work
• No conditions to cleanse

So that leaves us with the hammer’s protection (which comes with an annoying light field) and Shield of Courage. Of course we can still do DPS but, like you said, other classes fulfill that role much better.

Hunter.4783:

Allied burst healing: Druid surpassed the guardian in heal by about 10x, i am not even kidding. A single druid would keep the whole raid up. There is a reason they are changing druid healing coefficients a little bit.

I’m saying this based off of the matches I’ve played as a druid in PvP: I honestly don’t believe druids have better burst healing than guardians (I also think guardians have better burst cleansing too). That is to say, I don’t think druids can heal the amount guardians can in a short period of time, although I do think druids have far superior sustained healing.
Based on the calculations that I’ve made, in a period of about 10 seconds, a guardian can heal over 50000 health on all of his allies within a mostly 600-1200 range/radius, but a lot of those abilities will be on a fair-to-long cooldown afterwards. A druid can do around 35000 in 10 seconds, but most of a druid’s burst healing is in a 240-300 radius centered on the druid, which often makes it impractical, limits the number of allies you’ll be able to heal, and makes those in the healing AoE more susceptible to enemy AoE.
The reason they’re changing the druid’s healing bases and coefficients was because the benefit from healing power was almost non-existent.
Not sure where you got “10x” more healing from. It’d be true if you were comparing a druid to a guardian who wasn’t using a healing build, I guess. Again, based on the calculations that I’ve made, a druid’s sustained healing (in terms of HP/S) is about 3x better than a healing guardian’s sustained healing assuming that the druid always hits their (often extremely difficult to aim) healing.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I don’t recall Guardians ever really being known for their burst healing. Most of what they do is heal over time.

There are two burst heals on the staff, VoR’s active is a burst heal, Merciful Intervention is a burst heal, Healing Breeze is one of the biggest burst heals in the game, and Signet of Courage is the biggest burst heal in the game. As for sustained healing, there’s Selfless Daring, and Bow of Truth’s active, and even then both of those are almost sustained burst. There’s also Sanctuary, but the healing on that is mostly just flavouring. Guardians also have slightly less HP/S compared to a staff water elementalist due to the fact that they have a farming ability where their healing auto-attack should be. So I really don’t see how most of what they do is over time.

Fashion Mage.3712:

There are two burst heals on the staff, VoR’s active is a burst heal, Merciful Intervention is a burst heal, Healing Breeze is one of the biggest burst heals in the game, and Signet of Courage is the biggest burst heal in the game. As for sustained healing, there’s Selfless Daring, and Bow of Truth’s active, and even then both of those are almost sustained burst. There’s also Sanctuary, but the healing on that is mostly just flavouring. Guardians also have slightly less HP/S compared to a staff water elementalist due to the fact that they have a farming ability where their healing auto-attack should be. So I really don’t see how most of what they do is over time.

I don’t think you know what burst actually means. Healing breeze is the only burst heal that you mentioned, all other heals are just one time.

Ragnarox.9601:

I don’t think you know what burst actually means. Healing breeze is the only burst heal that you mentioned, all other heals are just one time.

I know exactly what it means. Burst healing is healing a large amount in a small period of time, typically with a fairly large cooldown. Just because Healing Breeze is an exceptionally large burst heal doesn’t mean the rest aren’t burst heals. If you’re going to be like that, then Signet of Courage is the only burst heal in the game by comparison.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Hunter.4783:

Allied burst healing: Druid surpassed the guardian in heal by about 10x, i am not even kidding. A single druid would keep the whole raid up. There is a reason they are changing druid healing coefficients a little bit.

I’m saying this based off of the matches I’ve played as a druid in PvP: I honestly don’t believe druids have better burst healing than guardians (I also think guardians have better burst cleansing too). That is to say, I don’t think druids can heal the amount guardians can in a short period of time, although I do think druids have far superior sustained healing.
Based on the calculations that I’ve made, in a period of about 10 seconds, a guardian can heal over 50000 health on all of his allies within a mostly 600-1200 range/radius, but a lot of those abilities will be on a fair-to-long cooldown afterwards. A druid can do around 35000 in 10 seconds, but most of a druid’s burst healing is in a 240-300 radius centered on the druid, which often makes it impractical, limits the number of allies you’ll be able to heal, and makes those in the healing AoE more susceptible to enemy AoE.
The reason they’re changing the druid’s healing bases and coefficients was because the benefit from healing power was almost non-existent.
Not sure where you got “10x” more healing from. It’d be true if you were comparing a druid to a guardian who wasn’t using a healing build, I guess. Again, based on the calculations that I’ve made, a druid’s sustained healing (in terms of HP/S) is about 3x better than a healing guardian’s sustained healing assuming that the druid always hits their (often extremely difficult to aim) healing.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I don’t recall Guardians ever really being known for their burst healing. Most of what they do is heal over time.

There are two burst heals on the staff, VoR’s active is a burst heal, Merciful Intervention is a burst heal, Healing Breeze is one of the biggest burst heals in the game, and Signet of Courage is the biggest burst heal in the game. As for sustained healing, there’s Selfless Daring, and Bow of Truth’s active, and even then both of those are almost sustained burst. There’s also Sanctuary, but the healing on that is mostly just flavouring. Guardians also have slightly less HP/S compared to a staff water elementalist due to the fact that they have a farming ability where their healing auto-attack should be. So I really don’t see how most of what they do is over time.

10s is fairly long to be counted as burst. If you exclude the 3min signet heal, how much can a guardian heal in 3s.

A druid (not going to count sigil proc or anything, just base skill with 40% outgoing healing from traits and food) can heal 4 allies, in a 3s window, 12.8k + 7.8K + 5.2k = 25.8k. I still haven’t counted that the 5.2k heal is on 5s cd, there’s a 4s water field which pulses 5 times for 1.7k a heal to allies on a 8s cd, a separable 1.7k heal auto in CA form or that glyphs can heal 1.8k each. The 2 biggest heals (12.8k and 7.8k) can be repeated every 19s.

Not sure how a Guardian can match that. Receive the light with 40% outgoing heal will tick at around 2.2k in clerics, but over 4 pulses. In comparison, the CA form 4 does 1.7k but pulses 5 times so they are on par. However, the 4 skill on druid is on an 8s cd and is a water field making it much better.

In summary, I don;t think Guardians, or any other class for that matter, has the raw burst potential of a druid i.e. go from 1 to full health in a few seconds (excluding the 3min guardian signet). The fact that druids can repeat this every for 2/3’s of a fight makes them have high sustained healing as well as burst.

@OP It’s still too early to judge Guardian’s role but even if they’re not meta, just raid with friends and play Guardian if you enjoy it.

Ehhhh, sounding like you guys are having the same problems as us necromancers….so from what I’m getting at revenant and Druid are pretty much pushing you guys out?

TheLastNobody.8319:

Ehhhh, sounding like you guys are having the same problems as us necromancers….so from what I’m getting at revenant and Druid are pretty much pushing you guys out?

They are either giving part of what makes us good to them or making what we offer seem less important.

So many nonreflectable crap being added to raids and new content it’s annoying. As well as unblockable attacks. But the biggest problem is with so much little damage constantly being thrown around in raids, it is becoming much harder to get reliable blocks on the hard hitting attacks.

Oh and while they were at it, they nerfed our 4 second quickness ELITE!!!!

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Ehhhh, sounding like you guys are having the same problems as us necromancers….so from what I’m getting at revenant and Druid are pretty much pushing you guys out?

They are either giving part of what makes us good to them or making what we offer seem less important.

So many nonreflectable crap being added to raids and new content it’s annoying. As well as unblockable attacks. But the biggest problem is with so much little damage constantly being thrown around in raids, it is becoming much harder to get reliable blocks on the hard hitting attacks.

Oh and while they were at it, they nerfed our 4 second quickness ELITE!!!!

I think that that is the single most annoying thing that Anet is doing with PvE. Because of the ridiculous nature of reflect scaling, they’ve decided to make every PvE projectile completely unblockable instead of just adjusting reflect damage.

It makes Guardians near useless in a fight.

Black Box.9312:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Ehhhh, sounding like you guys are having the same problems as us necromancers….so from what I’m getting at revenant and Druid are pretty much pushing you guys out?

They are either giving part of what makes us good to them or making what we offer seem less important.

So many nonreflectable crap being added to raids and new content it’s annoying. As well as unblockable attacks. But the biggest problem is with so much little damage constantly being thrown around in raids, it is becoming much harder to get reliable blocks on the hard hitting attacks.

Oh and while they were at it, they nerfed our 4 second quickness ELITE!!!!

I think that that is the single most annoying thing that Anet is doing with PvE. Because of the ridiculous nature of reflect scaling, they’ve decided to make every PvE projectile completely unblockable instead of just adjusting reflect damage.

It makes Guardians near useless in a fight.

Yeah I can see that being a big problem, not like you guys have 2 health bars, or extended periods of invulnerability. Making something unblock able is just lazy design, and I do think they’ve put out too many reflects on other classes, which has caused them to make this decision. Then again they have made other attacks undodgeable and what not which counters thief mechanics as well, but seems raids are focusing on more sort of damage reduction and regeneration rather than outright avoiding damage all together.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Making something unblock able is just lazy design, and I do think they’ve put out too many reflects on other classes, which has caused them to make this decision. Then again they have made other attacks undodgeable and what not which counters thief mechanics as well, but seems raids are focusing on more sort of damage reduction and regeneration rather than outright avoiding damage all together.

the problem I see is that they have to make them unblocakble because if they dont dragonhunters would trivilize most encounters. you just huddle up and chain F3 roman battle formation style.

but I am not that concerned overall. the minmaxers will sure find a set up that will exclude 40-50% of the classes anyways. 2 revs, 2 eles, 2 mesmers, fill up with whatever brings the best gap fillers and the diversity is already gone.

we gonna do the raids in our guild for fun and the challenge itself until we make it work with whatever classes people want to bring. It will take time until the strategy guides are out but after that with a little practice I do not see it matter much.

An even if it is something not everyone is to complete with his favorite classe then so be it.

Terra.8571:

10s is fairly long to be counted as burst. If you exclude the 3min signet heal, how much can a guardian heal in 3s.

A druid (not going to count sigil proc or anything, just base skill with 40% outgoing healing from traits and food) can heal 4 allies, in a 3s window, 12.8k + 7.8K + 5.2k = 25.8k. I still haven’t counted that the 5.2k heal is on 5s cd, there’s a 4s water field which pulses 5 times for 1.7k a heal to allies on a 8s cd, a separable 1.7k heal auto in CA form or that glyphs can heal 1.8k each. The 2 biggest heals (12.8k and 7.8k) can be repeated every 19s.

The exact number of seconds is kind of irrelevant really. All it means is that for a short duration, guardians are capable of healing around 5000 health a second, which definitely qualifies as burst healing. Also, I’m not arguing that the druid has better sustained healing; I already know they do, although I do still stand by the fact that druid healing is often impractical or impossible to aim (maybe snap ground-targeting will help?).

As far as I’m aware of, no skill on the druid is capable of healing 12.8k in a single ability. I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. I’m assuming the 7.8k is Glyph of Rejuvenation, in which case the value for that should be higher using 40% outgoing healing and full healing power as stats.
Assuming you’re using full cleric’s gear with monk runes for your healing values:
Orb of Light+detonation (1/2 cast time): 2464
Healing Breeze (2.25 cast time): 8280
VoR active (instant): 2943
Merciful Intervention (instant): 3014
All of that multiplied by 1.35 (monk runes, force of will, riceballs) adds up to 22546 healing. I could’ve added in another 6750 from the shield’s detonation, a selfless daring roll, and a signet pulse, but those are somewhat situational so I left them out.

Asmodal.6489:

we gonna do the raids in our guild for fun and the challenge itself until we make it work with whatever classes people want to bring. It will take time until the strategy guides are out but after that with a little practice I do not see it matter much.

An even if it is something not everyone is to complete with his favorite classe then so be it.

This will be us as well.

Garimeth.8725:

Asmodal.6489:

we gonna do the raids in our guild for fun and the challenge itself until we make it work with whatever classes people want to bring. It will take time until the strategy guides are out but after that with a little practice I do not see it matter much.

An even if it is something not everyone is to complete with his favorite classe then so be it.

This will be us as well.

This thread is not really about that. You can do most content with a few members being dead weight.

This thread is about whether or not Guards still bring something worth while to the group, or do we become a burden if other classes are vastly superior to us in regards to what we usually bring to a group.

Run a full necro team for all we care, but the thread is about if Guard is still a staple or bench warmer.

Asmodal.6489:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Making something unblock able is just lazy design, and I do think they’ve put out too many reflects on other classes, which has caused them to make this decision. Then again they have made other attacks undodgeable and what not which counters thief mechanics as well, but seems raids are focusing on more sort of damage reduction and regeneration rather than outright avoiding damage all together.

the problem I see is that they have to make them unblocakble because if they dont dragonhunters would trivilize most encounters. you just huddle up and chain F3 roman battle formation style.

but I am not that concerned overall. the minmaxers will sure find a set up that will exclude 40-50% of the classes anyways. 2 revs, 2 eles, 2 mesmers, fill up with whatever brings the best gap fillers and the diversity is already gone.

we gonna do the raids in our guild for fun and the challenge itself until we make it work with whatever classes people want to bring. It will take time until the strategy guides are out but after that with a little practice I do not see it matter much.

An even if it is something not everyone is to complete with his favorite classe then so be it.

Some utilities would indeed trivialize the raid. We shouldn’t wish for another one-shot Giganticus Lupicus scenario. But I have to agree with TheLastNobody that it is lazy design. A good AI design should be able to analyze their opponent and see when they are unable to hit their target and thus create a counter-move or temporarily suspend their attack. Let us make use of every utility instead of making everything, literally everything, unblockable. Right now it seems we’re getting the short end of the stick. Personally, it does concern me when the meta is going to be revolved around three classes. Although we will have to wait and see what the rest of the raid has to offer.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Garimeth.8725:

Asmodal.6489:

we gonna do the raids in our guild for fun and the challenge itself until we make it work with whatever classes people want to bring. It will take time until the strategy guides are out but after that with a little practice I do not see it matter much.

An even if it is something not everyone is to complete with his favorite classe then so be it.

This will be us as well.

This thread is not really about that. You can do most content with a few members being dead weight.

This thread is about whether or not Guards still bring something worth while to the group, or do we become a burden if other classes are vastly superior to us in regards to what we usually bring to a group.

Run a full necro team for all we care, but the thread is about if Guard is still a staple or bench warmer.

False dichotomy. There is room for more gradation than Meta, or non-Meta. Which is what my attempt to reframe the convo was about. At the very least there is Meta, Acceptable, and Bad. If guardian is Acceptable, then cool – not every class is always going to be one of the best so whatever. Its when that same class is pushed into the Bad category that its a problem and I personally would consider rerolling. If I wanted even more gradation in that I would extend that to “how much of the raid is a numbers thing, and how much is it a skill thing?” Because a good player on an Acceptable, can outperform a bad player on a Meta build if there is enough skill involved as the determination of success. Not everybody in this thread cares about being the BEST, we just don’t want to be the WORST.

TL; DR: To suggest that if your class isn’t the best in role makes it completely useless is simply inaccurate.

It doesn’t make it useless, but it doesn’t make it meta, and if you aren’t running meta no ones going to take you into raids

Fashion Mage.3712:

exact number of seconds is kind of irrelevant really.

It’s actually completely relevant. However, if you are trying to say if it’s 3s or 4s and that the 3 I chose is arbitrary, then I agree with that. With regards to what the number should be, is based on how long an enemy takes to deliver heavy damage. A good example is the archdeviner who attacks roughly every 3s (hence my choice). Regardless of the number, in a raid or PvE setting, you can be downed/ killed 2 or even 3x by hard hitting bosses within a 10s frame which is why I said it was too high. Healing them up at 5k a tick every second for 10s won’t cut it. That was the point I was getting at.

Fashion Mage.3712:

As far as I’m aware of, no skill on the druid is capable of healing 12.8k in a single ability. I’m not sure where you’re getting that from.

You’re right, it’s actually a 15k heal, forgot to count the pet trigger from cultivated synergy!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNQQFAmm0rCFsikZGAOcWA-TRhXwA1UCaU9HA7PgQ5XKdAkCwv9WA-e

The editor does not add the 40% outgoing heal (20% from trait, 10% from rice ball, 10% from monk runes).

If you want the math, here it is:

• Glyph of Rejuvenation in CA form base heal = 4,860 to allies. (Coefficient = 1)
• Cultivated Synergy (trait, heals when heal skill used) base heal = 1,000 (but triggers twice, once around you, once around pet. Coeff = 0.2)
• Verdant Etching (trait, using a glyph plants a seed of life) base heal = 500 (Coeff = 0.5)

With 1757 healing power, those numbers with their respective coeff are now:

• Glyph of Rejuv = 6617
• Cultivated Synergy = 1351 (x 2)
• Seed of Life = 1379

That’s a total of 10698 from just the glyph which has a 1s cast (the seed takes 2s to blossom), but it’s all 1 ability.

Add 40% outgoing healing and that’s 10698*1.4 = 14977 to 4 allies. That skill is on a 19s cd and pretty much blows receive the light out of the water.

Fashion Mage.3712:

I’m assuming the 7.8k is Glyph of Rejuvenation, in which case the value for that should be higher using 40% outgoing healing and full healing power as stats.

Nope (see above). This is actually glyph of alignment.

• In CA form, glyph has a base healing = 2,585 (Coeff = 1.0)
• Verdant Etching (trait, using a glyph plants a seed of life) base heal = 500 (Coeff = 0.5)

With 1757 healing power that’s

• Glyph = 4342
• Seed of Life = 1379

So that’s a 5721 heal to 4 allies base. Add 40% outgoing healing % = 5721 × 1.4 = 8009. That’s on a 16s cd with 0.5s cast.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Assuming you’re using full cleric’s gear with monk runes for your healing values:
Orb of Light+detonation (1/2 cast time): 2464
Healing Breeze (2.25 cast time): 8280
VoR active (instant): 2943
Merciful Intervention (instant): 3014
All of that multiplied by 1.35 (monk runes, force of will, riceballs) adds up to 22546 healing. I could’ve added in another 6750 from the shield’s detonation, a selfless daring roll, and a signet pulse, but those are somewhat situational so I left them out.

Technically the modifier is 1.33 if I’m pedantic as cleric has 0 vitality but anyways. The biggest heal there, healing breeze aka receive the light is over 5s. Like I said, if archdeviner hits an ally for 8k and the ally has 2k hp left. You start casting healing breeze and they get hit again. The 8k heal would have saved them if it was not over 5s. That is the key to burst healing, big heals over a couple of seconds at most. At least in this game.

I don;t disagree with the number you put there and you may well be able to get a 10k+ burst (in 3s) using 3-4 skills. However, most of those abilities will be on 30s cd even after traited.

In comparison, the druid heal alone in CA form is better than all of them combined. Even the glyph of alignment is better at healing than the healing breeze because it’s faster and on a much lower cd.

We haven;t even mentioned CA 3 which is a big 5k heal on kitten cd or CA 4 which is an 8k+ water field heal over 5s on an 8s cd.

I agree, the 1 skill heal is difficult to use on moving targets but you don;t need that to burst heal but it is a useful 1.7k spammable no cd auto attack heal that will be used not for the healing but to get you the stacks for a 20% healing boost and your allies a 15% dps boost (a new trait druids are getting).

So as far as healing as a druid goes, you will rely on skill 3, 4, the heal (skill 6) and skill 7 (the other glyph) +/- the elite depending how good it is. You don;t even need the cumbersome 1. That’s a lot nice than trying to heal with the guardian staff xD.

Overall, the gap is pretty wide, test it this weekend. It’ll be the first time you see healing numbers in double digits.

1,757 healing power in a PvE build. That’s a good one.

Terra.8571:

Fashion Mage.3712:

exact number of seconds is kind of irrelevant really.

It’s actually completely relevant. However, if you are trying to say if it’s 3s or 4s and that the 3 I chose is arbitrary, then I agree with that. With regards to what the number should be, is based on how long an enemy takes to deliver heavy damage. A good example is the archdeviner who attacks roughly every 3s (hence my choice). Regardless of the number, in a raid or PvE setting, you can be downed/ killed 2 or even 3x by hard hitting bosses within a 10s frame which is why I said it was too high. Healing them up at 5k a tick every second for 10s won’t cut it. That was the point I was getting at.

From my experience with that boss, healing someone for 5000 health a second is definitely enough to keep them alive (unless they’re affected by agony’s healing reduction, although that affects all healers of course).
Using your logic, if the burst is really that bad, since most burst healing on the druid is close-ranged, simply chasing allies who just got bursted won’t be feasible, nor will they necessarily stand in one spot to receive healing from stuff like Seed of Life/Verdant Etching. Group healing is also out of the question because most of the radii are small. Of course this is all assuming that raids can’t abuse stacking.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Technically the modifier is 1.33 if I’m pedantic as cleric has 0 vitality but anyways. The biggest heal there, healing breeze aka receive the light is over 5s. Like I said, if archdeviner hits an ally for 8k and the ally has 2k hp left. You start casting healing breeze and they get hit again. The 8k heal would have saved them if it was not over 5s. That is the key to burst healing, big heals over a couple of seconds at most. At least in this game.

If Healing Breeze was over a 5 second duration, I don’t think anybody would ever touch such trash. Healing Breeze is over a 2.25 second duration, so that’s about 3500 healing per second.

Black Box.9312:

1,757 healing power in a PvE build. That’s a good one.

It could very much be a thing in raids, especially when druids have their healing coefficients buffed and their bases nerfed.

Fashion Mage.3712:

From my experience with that boss, healing someone for 5000 health a second is definitely enough to keep them alive (unless they’re affected by agony’s healing reduction, although that affects all healers of course).

I’m not sure healing will be needed in fractals, we’ll have to see. I was simply using Archedeviner because he has the capabilities of one or two shooting people. However, unlike raids, all his damage can be mitigated though blocks, reflects, dodges and evades.

Like I mentioned, 5k/s heals for say 3s = 15k healing. But say an ally needs 11k to survive the next attack, the 5k/s is too slow. Whether or not raid bosses will have such heavy hitting attacks we’ll have to see. But obviously you’ll have to factor in protections and other damage mitigation abilities.

I’m not trying to say Guardians can’t heal, I’m trying to say Druids can do it easier/ better.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Using your logic, if the burst is really that bad, since most burst healing on the druid is close-ranged, simply chasing allies who just got bursted won’t be feasible, nor will they necessarily stand in one spot to receive healing from stuff like Seed of Life/Verdant Etching. Group healing is also out of the question because most of the radii are small. Of course this is all assuming that raids can’t abuse stacking.

Verdant etching is instant whilst seed of life is only 10% of a 14k heal. Group healing is definitely not out of the question, watch this Lost Vale kill:

He pretty much keeps up his whole party and if you look for reddit threads, they attest to that.

Druid heals are mainly 300 radius which is enough for everyone around the boss. Stacking was originally used when group huddles in a corner to LoS mobs into their territory. Simply grouping around a boss (like in the video) isn’t really stacking. Given the above scenario, druids can definitely group heal. Just keep them in their own party so they can hit members outside their party and you’re set.

With regards to landing moves like healing seed, you’ll need some coordination with the tank who can easily move the boss over the seeds.

Fashion Mage.3712:

If Healing Breeze was over a 5 second duration, I don’t think anybody would ever touch such trash. Healing Breeze is over a 2.25 second duration, so that’s about 3500 healing per second.

You have to count the cast time, same as when calculating dps. The cast is 2.25, then the heal starts which is 3s.

Overall, like I’ve mentioned, it’s too early to say whether Guardians can or cannot fill the healer spot. However, Druid’s have higher burst and higher sustained healing. Both theoretically and practically. My long posts, sorry for that, wasn’t to disregard your opinions, but I wanted to point out factually that druids can heal more than any other class in terms of raw healing than everything else by some distance.

You are right though, whether that kind of healing is necessary is another question and that’s why you are getting posts like should druids use zerkers, clerics or zealots.

My whole rant/ posts was because you said:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I honestly don’t believe druids have better burst healing than guardians

I simply wanted to show some evidence and reading back it’s turned into a long tirade :P. Anyways, as mentioned, if you like guardian healing builds, give them a go.

Most of the “guardians suck” posts are purely based off of the mechanics from the first boss.

Utility guardians might be very good for other fights. Really though I expect condi guards to be very useful for any fight that involves AOE or cleave. If you’ve ever raided in another MMO you’d know how important AOE DPS is and condi guard is sitting up at the top of that category with Permeating Wrath.

Just for a second i will break the healing debate and will say that guardian might compete for a DPS spot in raids. This is just me with only “napkin” maths.

I haven’t tried DH in a raid, ironically i was playing DPS Shiro/Herald, but i did tried DH in a Arah trio.

I can say that the ammount of dmg multipliers we will have from Zeal, Radiance and DH will result in some gross numbers output. This is even more true with the new https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Sight minor that we didn’t had available on the last BWE.

I was doing 9 – 11k mace autos in Arah on a risen Elite, with only Force/Frailty sigils no Undead potion and no new pure of sight trait. Ohh, i fogot to mention no warrior/ranger buffs and, wait for it.. 0 might!. I don’t recall if vuln was capped on the target but i was playing with a Scrapper/Reaper.

Now imagine all those multipliers with Force/Impact sigils (impact for when the boss is stunned) with Scepter Smite getting 13%!! from pure of sight and torch hitting like a truck, then switch to mace/hammer for melee.

So yeah, i don’t think we will compete for support, at least for the first boss anyways.

You guys gotta realize that just because guardian isn’t the best at something, doesn’t mean that it’s useless and people won’t take it. People will continue to play guardian because they find it fun/like the aesthetic.

No need to burn down (no pun intended) guardian player’s hopes for raids.

First boss in raid may not need guardians but that doesn’t mean the other bosses won’t.

Also Shield of Courage can be a 7s block that allows you to get rezzes on people without taking any damage. That’s gotta be useful for something.

CadeRG.4508:

You guys gotta realize that just because guardian isn’t the best at something, doesn’t mean that it’s useless and people won’t take it. People will continue to play guardian because they find it fun/like the aesthetic.

No need to burn down (no pun intended) guardian player’s hopes for raids.

True, but the same thing was said about necros and rangers in dungeons. And look where they are. I play a necro, and while I do love it to death, it’s been my main almost since I started GW2, they are rarely wanted in dungeons simply because they don’t bring much to the table.

Ideally, every class should be the best at something, or decent at multiple things. Revenants are boon factories, Druids are super healers, Warrior will still have phalanx strength to help provide a constant stream of might, engineer is locked in simply for it’s Condi damage capabilities but still has great support, thieves have stealth which is always helpful, reapers are going to be bruiser gods and can pull people that are downed out of the danger zone, eles are a good Jack of all trades, mesmers have portal and give alclarity with chronomancer.

The guard’s whole schtick is that it can help negate damage that would normally wipe a party off the face of tyria with reflects, projectile blocks, and aegis. But if there is enough unblock able attacks, then a guardian will start to be nothing more than an active spectator…..dear Grenth i hope this doesn’t sound hostile, truly don’t mean it to if it does. Just wanting to make a point, and Hopefully I’m dead wrong.

In short, to summarize, I don’t think people are afraid guardian will not be meta, I think they’re afraid that they’ll start thinking they same way I did on my necromancer for the longest time. “Well, if I was on another class, I could do something.”

TheLastNobody.8319:

The guard’s whole schtick is that it can help negate damage that would normally wipe a party off the face of tyria with reflects, projectile blocks, and aegis. But if there is enough unblock able attacks, then a guardian will start to be nothing more than an active spectator…..dear Grenth i hope this doesn’t sound hostile, truly don’t mean it to if it does. Just wanting to make a point, and Hopefully I’m dead wrong.

I know you are already admitting that you are likely wrong but to anyone that does think this kind of thing:
It is just unreasonable to even consider that every boss will be doing unblockable, unreflectable skills and attacking quickly and like a wet noodle. There will be bosses that need guardians, it is just that guardians are usually Useless Or All Important due to the fact that they 100% mitigate effects.

Take Auras for example, traited for heals and protection, that doesn’t depend on the boss at all and if balanced correctly would be useful for any and every fight.
Then take Aegis, if a boss hits once every 10 seconds we can Block 100% of the damage. Or Reflects, if a bosses damage is only projectile than a Guardian or 2 will block 100% of his damage(or even kill him extra quick with returned damage)
Our Mechanics depend on the boss a lot more.

I am sure there will be bosses that require these mechanics, maybe in very complicated ways like relfected projectiles heal boss, but have to reflect, so have to angle away, then 1 or 2 Guardians will be required. Maybe we will take the Boonstrip mesmers place after first boss as that won’t be needed, maybe we will take the aggro tankers place as that boss won’t have aggro mechanics, maybe might will be corrupted so Revs are out….. So Many Possibilities . . . Take a deep breath and relax.

Terra.8571:

I’m not trying to say Guardians can’t heal, I’m trying to say Druids can do it easier/ better.

I mostly agree, but I’m still not convinced that guardians are worse at (practical) burst healing specifically. :p
I suppose whether or not the range restrictions on druid burst healing are a problem or not will only be able to be truly seen once the expansion hits.

Terra.8571:

Verdant etching is instant whilst seed of life is only 10% of a 14k heal. Group healing is definitely not out of the question, watch this Lost Vale kill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thS431kCOcg

He pretty much keeps up his whole party and if you look for reddit threads, they attest to that.

Druid heals are mainly 300 radius which is enough for everyone around the boss. Stacking was originally used when group huddles in a corner to LoS mobs into their territory. Simply grouping around a boss (like in the video) isn’t really stacking. Given the above scenario, druids can definitely group heal. Just keep them in their own party so they can hit members outside their party and you’re set.

With regards to landing moves like healing seed, you’ll need some coordination with the tank who can easily move the boss over the seeds.

That’s true, coordination helps a lot, although I don’t think grouping together that tightly is always going to be a viable strategy. At least I know it isn’t in stuff like PvP and even in some fractals. Perhaps (all? some?) raids are different though.
I don’t recall Verdant Etching’s seeds exploding instantly.

Terra.8571:

You have to count the cast time, same as when calculating dps. The cast is 2.25, then the heal starts which is 3s.

I’m pretty sure I would’ve noticed Healing Breeze having a longer cast time (in total) than Signet of Courage. The actual healing effect starts at around 0.3-0.4 seconds. From what I counted, it doesn’t seem like that “3 second” breeze is 3 seconds long either, so I’m assuming the tooltip is incorrect unless the breeze persists after the cast.

Terra.8571:

Overall, like I’ve mentioned, it’s too early to say whether Guardians can or cannot fill the healer spot. However, Druid’s have higher burst and higher sustained healing. Both theoretically and practically. My long posts, sorry for that, wasn’t to disregard your opinions, but I wanted to point out factually that druids can heal more than any other class in terms of raw healing than everything else by some distance.

You are right though, whether that kind of healing is necessary is another question and that’s why you are getting posts like should druids use zerkers, clerics or zealots.

I think it’ll be recommended in raids, at least. I don’t believe guardians have the sustained healing to keep a whole group up indefinitely, but I still do believe that they have the most practical burst healing, so maybe they’ll fit in as zealot DPS/supplemental burst healers or something. Overall I do agree that druids generally outheal guardians pretty hard.

Terra.8571:

My whole rant/ posts was because you said:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I honestly don’t believe druids have better burst healing than guardians

I simply wanted to show some evidence and reading back it’s turned into a long tirade :P. Anyways, as mentioned, if you like guardian healing builds, give them a go.

It’s k. I was wondering on the details of this matter anyway, and your posts helped me realize that I was underestimating/miscalculating how much healing druids can put out, although I never really thought their general healing was weaker in the first place. :>
I plan to use both a guardian and a druid. I don’t see the need to “reroll” to be honest.