Guild Wars 2

Obtena had a great post in another thread that pretty much said “Play to our strengths”.

That said, I took a second to re-evaluate just what our intended strengths are by the mechanics that the devs put out for us.

So what are our strengths?

• Protection
  We have more frequent sources of protection for longer durations than other professions. This makes sense since we are supposed to be the “defensive, boon based fighters”, yet we have the lowest health pool. so this is supposed to be one of the things that lets us survive.

• Healing
  Per our class mechanics, we are on the lowest tier of health pools, but we are supposed to have that offset by our virtues. Namely Virtue of Resolve. Increasing our healing power directly increases our combat survivability. The usefulness of healing power can be argued, but the best way to increase our effective health is by damage mitigation and healing.

• Regeneration
  This is not something unique to Guardians, as necromancers and other professions can have high up time of regeneration as well, but this plays back onto our effective health from the previous bullet.

• Condition Removal/Conversion
  Guardians have probably the most sources of condition removal or conversion available in our trait lines. This is probably due in part to our low health pool and the need to remove them in order to live.

• Boons
  This can be argued that boons are not specific to Guardians, and it is true, other professions have plenty of access to the boons that they need already, but we do have frequent applications of boons for self and group, which provide support/utility

• Projectile Defense
  We have multiple sources of projectile blocks and reflections, available to any build

• Stability
  We have multiple and fast refreshing, long duration stability sources which help keep CCs off of us and groups.

• Blinds
  Two low cool down blinds on sword and great sword and also spamable AE blind with virtue of justice if traited. Also a blind with focus, but less reliable due to longer windup/travel time and some bounce issues if multiple enemies near by, but still useful for a few quick succession blinds if it works.

• Blocks/Aegis
  We have a moderatly low cooldown block with the mace, but we also have on demand capability to use Aegis. The only other profession that really makes use of aegis is the mesmer, and that is on a random boon basis for the most part. Aegis has 45-60 cooldown on shout and a 30-40 cooldown on virtue depending on traits.

Some additional secondary effects that can be gained from aegis to passively activate on removal, but not very high priority on the threat/utility list. Still it is worth noting as something that we “excel” in.

This was a quick list, but what else do you guys think we “excel” at?

Update 8/4/2013

I think an overall summation of the one thing guardians do better than other professions is to apply boons to groups. We can focus on 100% protection, might, regeneration, retaliation, or even swiftness to allies around us.

The biggest problem is that we can not do that simultaneously and the other professions are able to make due without those boons up 100% of the time.

Our most beneficial addition to a group is typically protection in pve or retaliation in pvp. Regeneration and stability come in at a second most wanted boon from the guardian.

After that we are there for group condition cleansing and projectile blocks.

Is this role defining enough? when I put it that way it seems kind of meh to me.

How can we play to our strengths and become better as an individual? More often than not you may hear, if you want “x” go play “y” class. Normally you heard that if people wanted to bunker, but some of these posts are indicating that we are losing ground on that as well.

Don’t tell them how powerful we are SHHHH…

Well, thats what we can do, unless someone has more to add.

Now as far as making builds, should we build to our strengths and apply all or most of the above in every guardian build?

Are builds that don’t not as good?

Thoughts.

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Lol Chritos, scrap all that and just give us GM commands. I think that would make all guardian players much happier all around

What about blocking and maybe even blinding as damage mitigation. Frequent burning.

Doesn’t playing to a professions strength always means master the profession mechanic?
As was once said by the devs Guardians are supposed to be boon warriors and feel strong when they have boons but weak when they don’t. Hence our strength would be to have as much boons as possible at any point in time.

I considered block/blind as our “strengths” in the past, but honestly other professions block/blind better.

Blind may still be one of our strengths as we have fast cool down on blind, but warriors can block more frequently than guardians can honestly.

Other professions can blind a lot in a short duration, but on longer cool downs I think, such as blinding powder.

Aegis IS one of the guard’s main strengths. No other class can provide on-demand aegis to nearby allies reliably (mesmer using SoI to provide aegis doesn’t count because it requires the mesmer having it already, hence not on-demand, reliable).

Also, not all classes can chain blinds like guardians can. VoJ traited (aoe blind, and spammable in PVE and WvW zerg v zerg) sword 2 (short cd), gs 3 (only 15 sec, not bad), focus 4 (can be aoe blind). All in all, guards can produce lots of blinds, and I would count that as a strength.

CMF.5461:

I considered block/blind as our “strengths” in the past, but honestly other professions block/blind better.

Blind may still be one of our strengths as we have fast cool down on blind, but warriors can block more frequently than guardians can honestly.

IME, it doesn’t matter that Warrior could theoretically block more often, because he/she still lacks sustainability vs a Guardian (I have and love both.) However, it’s OK because the Warrior shouldn’t have the sustainability of a Guardian, as much as I wished it was better, even after the recent improvements (a Guardian with no vitality investment is more prone to be one-shotted on PvE in some encounters, though.)

One has also to take into consideration the player’s “strengths” and personal preferences. Even though many Guardian’s abilities-especially the ones noted on this thread-are defensive, a player could also play his/her Guardian more offensively if that is what he/she desires-while still being true to the Profession’s “strengths.”

I’m fairly certain that ranger has a higher protection up time than guardian. And a higher regeneration up time.

After reading your list, I think the only strength guardian has now is retaliation and aegis. Every other strength, other classes can do better.

Aegis use to be powerful, but with the blind change and thieves endlessly spamming it, it makes aegis look weak.

We should be careful on how we Asess strength. Sure other classes do some things better. That doesn’t mean those things aren’t Guardian strengths. Effectiveness isn’t really a measure either.

For example: Our speed is not our strength. Because other classes are faster? No, it’s because we need to be so specialized to be fast that it takes up resources from our other abilities.

Another example: Aegis IS a strength we possess, even with the blind change. No one can debate any other profession has as much access to Aegis as we do.

The original list is pretty accurate, though I’m not sure I would put regeneration up there.

Agree with all of those, my build pretty much fits all of them… (My build) Damage sucks though, but I’m more of a group support than damage dealer.

Burst damage seems to be overall underrated for the Guardian. The Guardian can throw some big damage numbers out very quickly, and without sacrificing too much survivability. Being able to get 12 stacks of might in 2,5 seconds, and inflict almost constant burning, should not be disregarded.

I’ll edit the list later to add block/aegis and blind up there as well.

As far as the list being too defensive and player preference may prefer an offensive setup, that was the original point of the post honestly.

How can we play to our strengths and gain a well rounded offensive build without them being gimicky and not sustainable.

So the built in mechanics of the class to survive while building more towards damage to make up for our lower HP pool and various mobility issues or what ever other downfalls people have felt was lacking in their gameplay.

On a lunch break right now so don’t have time to go into a lot of analysis at the moment, but feedback is always appreciated to help myself and others that may be interested in this topic.

Also I’ll go back and look at ranger, but it seemed like a 1s protection thing on roll I think. (factoring in the time it takes to roll which is 100% mitigated due to evade, and then 1s of up time after the roll is completed).

So it seems like they have frequent protection but not long lasting protection that can cover a 5-20 second period of damage).

Again anything I missed let me know.

CMF.5461:

I’ll edit the list later to add block/aegis and blind up there as well.

As far as the list being too defensive and player preference may prefer an offensive setup, that was the original point of the post honestly.

How can we play to our strengths and gain a well rounded offensive build without them being gimicky and not sustainable.

So the built in mechanics of the class to survive while building more towards damage to make up for our lower HP pool and various mobility issues or what ever other downfalls people have felt was lacking in their gameplay.

On a lunch break right now so don’t have time to go into a lot of analysis at the moment, but feedback is always appreciated to help myself and others that may be interested in this topic.

Also I’ll go back and look at ranger, but it seemed like a 1s protection thing on roll I think. (factoring in the time it takes to roll which is 100% mitigated due to evade, and then 1s of up time after the roll is completed).

So it seems like they have frequent protection but not long lasting protection that can cover a 5-20 second period of damage).

Again anything I missed let me know.

You didn’t consider their spirits, one gives protection for 3 secs (with no boon duration bonus) and it has a 10 sec cd.

I’m still waiting for a new elite that lets us use the “real” ray of judgement. You know, the giant beam from the sky. Juuudgement daaaay!

I’ve try a bunker build for Warrior. In cleric armor I’ve 22k hp and I regen 1000-1200 hp at second. Whit a non-stop regen. Whit the banner that give regeneration, I’ve always regen. 4 stack sec of regen every second.
Cleric build, the right traits, dolyak rune and the sigil that give regeneration.
I can resist a ele for 20+ seconds just standing there, whitout use skills. And I give good boons to the party by using my banners.
Infinite Regen for everyone, guys!!!!

Now… compared to a Guardian that need to use a skill of 1 sec of esecution that last 4 sec and has 8 sec of cooldown, whit a limited range… you can upgrade it’s range and duration, but you can be blocked during the execution of the skill, and you must use always that skill or you have not the regen.
Then, warrior have a infinite regen whit a more larger radius and whitout use skill, for the duration of 90 sec. The banner, whit the trait, recharge in 96 sec… then you’ve a permanent regen whitout problem.

Then you can use a mace+shield to defend and live well against 2 enemy.
And whit the mace+shield build you can stun your enemy for 3+1+1 sec and block every attacks for 4 sec.

I can’t do that whit my guardian…

Silv.9207:

I’ve try a bunker build for Warrior. In cleric armor I’ve 22k hp and I regen 1000-1200 hp at second. Whit a non-stop regen. Whit the banner that give regeneration, I’ve always regen. 4 stack sec of regen every second.
Cleric build, the right traits, dolyak rune and the sigil that give regeneration.
I can resist a ele for 20+ seconds just standing there, whitout use skills. And I give good boons to the party by using my banners.
Infinite Regen for everyone, guys!!!!

Now… compared to a Guardian that need to use a skill of 1 sec of esecution that last 4 sec and has 8 sec of cooldown, whit a limited range… you can upgrade it’s range and duration, but you can be blocked during the execution of the skill, and you must use always that skill or you have not the regen.
Then, warrior have a infinite regen whit a more larger radius and whitout use skill, for the duration of 90 sec. The banner, whit the trait, recharge in 96 sec… then you’ve a permanent regen whitout problem.

Then you can use a mace+shield to defend and live well against 2 enemy.
And whit the mace+shield build you can stun your enemy for 3+1+1 sec and block every attacks for 4 sec.

I can’t do that whit my guardian…

You are right, warriors have become great bunkers. I do not believe guardian can outheal a warrior passively. They have more burst heals for group though: empower, merciful intervention, tome of courage, shield #5. Over the past year with all the changes to different classes, I feel that guardian has lost its strength to other classes. This was bound to happen though, its just the nature of mmos.

Updated main post, you all got me kind of negative you debby downers :p

CMF.5461:

Updated main post, you all got me kind of negative you debby downers :p

The negative is good, there is nothing wrong with it.

From what I see, Guardian has two strengths.

High retaliation uptime and aegis. That’s it. Aegis is out weighted by blind, which is like a reverse aegis and spammable by thieves. Guardian’s access to blind is no where near the level that a thief can produce.

Retaliation is ok, but its been nerfed so much, so in turn it has made guardian lose power. I made a thread the other day about signet of judgment, how almost a year ago it was nerfed not to take advantage of vengeful trait. Now with the changes its still that way, which makes no sense. Because SoJ is basically a signet version of SyG. My point is, sometimes Anet takes things too far without looking at things in the long run.

Through out the months guardian has been nerfed with little to nothing in return. All of those little things add up eventually.

Silv.9207:

I’ve try a bunker build for Warrior. In cleric armor I’ve 22k hp and I regen 1000-1200 hp at second. Whit a non-stop regen. Whit the banner that give regeneration, I’ve always regen. 4 stack sec of regen every second.
Cleric build, the right traits, dolyak rune and the sigil that give regeneration.
I can resist a ele for 20+ seconds just standing there, whitout use skills. And I give good boons to the party by using my banners.
Infinite Regen for everyone, guys!!!!

Now… compared to a Guardian that need to use a skill of 1 sec of esecution that last 4 sec and has 8 sec of cooldown, whit a limited range… you can upgrade it’s range and duration, but you can be blocked during the execution of the skill, and you must use always that skill or you have not the regen.
Then, warrior have a infinite regen whit a more larger radius and whitout use skill, for the duration of 90 sec. The banner, whit the trait, recharge in 96 sec… then you’ve a permanent regen whitout problem.

Then you can use a mace+shield to defend and live well against 2 enemy.
And whit the mace+shield build you can stun your enemy for 3+1+1 sec and block every attacks for 4 sec.

I can’t do that whit my guardian…

regen…
on one skill?
can be blocked?
on guardian?
WTF?!

mace+shield with guardian, and no problem with stand agains two enemies…

PS. source of regen on guardian, that I know:
traites resolve gives regen on active efect
“Hold the Line!” shout (regen +protection)
Symbol of Faith

I have never been very active on the forums, in any game, but since I love GW2 so much I want to be better at the game.

However, I am unhappy.

I fell in love with the Guardian.
I thought the idea of a tanky character that can do some buffing, some healing, and some protection.

So I set up my traits for it.
Taking Healing power, toughness, boon duration, and vitality in my trait lines.

I was doing alright.

Then my friend decided to give somthing similar a try on his warrior.

Behold, the warrior can indeed effectivly do the same thing.
Without being entirly speced for it.

He had is warrior build for mostly damage, with a few points in toughness and vitality.

He just changed som traits to make his banners heal.
Then is able to heal and buff just as well as I am, however he has a absorbatant amount of HP.

So we tested this.

We have mirrored stats on gear and traits.

With JUST his banners he was matching the healing of every skill that I could pop AND he didnt have to do a thing, just let the banners do their thing.

He can sheild block for longer, stun, and do more damage, as well as buff for long periods of time and all he has to do is focus on fighting.

Now say he switches to shouts heal, the amount they heal is the same a the Guardian Resolve use, BUT he has multiple shouts and some only have a 25 second CD.

As much as I love the idea behind the guardian, the warrior does everything the same, if not better, plus has access to ranged weapons, and just MORE HP. We had the same items and build but he had 4000 more HP.

Needless to say, I now have a warrior until the guardian gets some love.

You cannot contain THIS!
~Famous Last Words

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

I don’t think Guardian is strong or weak. Can be strong at times if you have boons up, weak at others. If you get a bunch of guardians together they can be very strong in WvW or you can team a guardian up with nearly any other class and do pretty well in SPVP. A team fo 5 guardians is pretty invincible in pvp or pve. Alone they are kinda meh.

But to be honest, I have gotten pretty bored with it. It just seems to lack anything to make it special. There is nothing that really defines my guardian from another or from other characters. And nothing I can do that a Warrior can not. I just do it in blue.

I have to admit I haven’t logged in much lately as a result. It just lacks that exciting skill or two to really define it. And again our traits are pretty bland.

I am hoping in future expansions they allow some form of dual classing because atm the Guardian, well GW2 in general, is very bland if you like to build classes and have fun with the game that way. The trait system, which should provide customisation, is so bland its not fun to play with.

i think for starters, we need to cease or somehow contain the “if i wanna do X, i’ll just go warrior/ele/what have you”.

take it for what it’s worth, i think it’s true, perhaps we can’t out blind a thief, we can’t out damage a _, we can’t our regen a ranger, etc etc.. but if we want to we can do a LOT of these things VERY well, all. at. the. same. frigging. time. sure, many call us jack of all trades, master of none. is that a terrible thing to be had? and how far off are we from the so-called “masters”? i like to believe that the Guardian’s strength lies in the fact that we can be so versatile, with a huge access to boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times, as long as you’ve took the time to understand how damage is done in the game and are mindful of how you choose your gear and trait your build.

akamon.2769:

i think for starters, we need to cease or somehow contain the “if i wanna do X, i’ll just go warrior/ele/what have you”.

take it for what it’s worth, i think it’s true, perhaps we can’t out blind a thief, we can’t out damage a _, we can’t our regen a ranger, etc etc.. but if we want to we can do a LOT of these things VERY well, all. at. the. same. frigging. time. sure, many call us jack of all trades, master of none. is that a terrible thing to be had? and how far off are we from the so-called “masters”? i like to believe that the Guardian’s strength lies in the fact that we can be so versatile, with a huge access to boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times, as long as you’ve took the time to understand how damage is done in the game and are mindful of how you choose your gear and trait your build.

I had a VERY similar train of thought, and trust me, I WANT to GUARDIAN to be that. The issue is, specifically a WARRIOR can do all of those things BETTER. The Warrior has access to “boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times.” All of this with higher numbers on all of them than the GUARDIAN.

You can build a WARRIOR entirely for defense, buffing, and healing. Do all of these things for larger amounts, longer durations, and take more damage while doing it. THEN STILL do more damage.

I really want someone who TRULY believes the GUARDIAN is better at these things to sit be down and show me I am wrong. I absolutely LOVE the GUARDIAN.

AtlasUnbound.1082:

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

The nature of the class system means that you cannot just take parallel builds and compare it like that. That wouldn’t be very exciting anyways.

So you claim your friend can support better than a guardian? Well, he might be able to get bigger numbers but pray tell, can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill? Or spam removal and turn them into boons. Or create 2 barriers that prevent enemies from coming in? Or bounce projectiles back to the enemy? Or provide protection with every 3rd attack? Group stability?

I don’t play warriors, but I’m just curious.

My build is mostly offense, but I can still provide most of these.

I’m not saying Guards are the best in the game, but I think people aren’t fully aware that they can do a lot more then some would imagine.

And yes, thanks.

AtlasUnbound.1082:

akamon.2769:

i think for starters, we need to cease or somehow contain the “if i wanna do X, i’ll just go warrior/ele/what have you”.

take it for what it’s worth, i think it’s true, perhaps we can’t out blind a thief, we can’t out damage a _, we can’t our regen a ranger, etc etc.. but if we want to we can do a LOT of these things VERY well, all. at. the. same. frigging. time. sure, many call us jack of all trades, master of none. is that a terrible thing to be had? and how far off are we from the so-called “masters”? i like to believe that the Guardian’s strength lies in the fact that we can be so versatile, with a huge access to boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times, as long as you’ve took the time to understand how damage is done in the game and are mindful of how you choose your gear and trait your build.

I had a VERY similar train of thought, and trust me, I WANT to GUARDIAN to be that. The issue is, specifically a WARRIOR can do all of those things BETTER. The Warrior has access to “boons, group wide damage mitigation/support, while contributing steady DPS at all times.” All of this with higher numbers on all of them than the GUARDIAN.

You can build a WARRIOR entirely for defense, buffing, and healing. Do all of these things for larger amounts, longer durations, and take more damage while doing it. THEN STILL do more damage.

I really want someone who TRULY believes the GUARDIAN is better at these things to sit be down and show me I am wrong. I absolutely LOVE the GUARDIAN.

People need to stop putting too much on comparing guardian to other professions. Jesus

Let’s put some things to rest.

- Guardian is not the best or even close to the best bunker in the game.

- Guardians are crippled in the mobility sector, as we are forced to go GS/Sword + JI. (IF that playstyle suits what you’re trying to do, you’re not crippled at all: Period. It has a ton of mobility, but you have to take those 2 weapons… at a cost of DPS (due to sword)… sword really needs a stun or imob (signets) ~or~ chill/cripple (we dont’ have) to become effective).

- Guardians are hands down the best point control / Group Damage NEGATION class in the game: Staff/Hammer + Wall + Sanct + Shield(s). PERIOD>

- Guardians have the best Group Stability in game.

- Guardian TOP Burst rotation is Gimmicky, but very good when pulled off.

- Guardian TOP Burst falls off w/ larger group vs group as splash/aoe dmg kills Focus and our low HP pool.

- Guardian Sustain is good.

- Guardian Group Healing is great.

~~~~
Guardians were the poster child for Balance and now that most classes have been balanced they are feeling ‘weak’, as we could previously take less survivability and add more DPS and still be ok… this is becoming less and less due to our significantly LOW HP pool as other classes get buffed to “our” standard…
~~~~~

The cycle will repeat.

I think there is a fine line between always thinking the grass is greener on the other side and recognizing and acknowledging limitations and downfalls.

I’m torn between wanting a homogenization between all classes so that we can all play equally and uniqueness so that we have our own specialized role or flare in play style.

If we are the defensive melee fighters, then I’m good with that. But then make us more defensive than anyone else can ever possibly be which makes people reconsider trying to take us on.

If we are the support class then I’m fine with that, but then make us as supportive as possibly can be and unique in our boon capabilities which makes people want us.

If we are an offensive class then make as offensive as possible can be in a way that can melt face and strike fear in the hearts of others.

Right now we get closest to the most defensive class, and maybe support in “some” areas. But in a game with no tanks or healers and everyone has ready access to boons that they, then what is the point of being defensive and support. So then we go offense and that’s when people start to compare how we stand up to others.

I understand there is a disparity in how another class works and how our class works. That is what makes us unique and different. But when our primary and secondary build are less needed and our tertiary build is not as cool as others, it makes people look at those greener pastures.

I could be happy with my pinto. It’s comfortable, it gets me where I need to go, and I have used it this whole time. Then someone drives up in a porsche, then suddenly I realize my car is ok but there is better.

Now the question is, do I try to build up my pinto or do I scrap it and get a porsche, or do I just keep with my status quo and forget about it and just be happy with what I got?

I"m the kind that would like to make what I have as good as possible. Maybe it isn’t ever going to be as fast as the porsche, but I’ll be happy with what I was able to pull off with what I do have.

I think we need to avoid comparing ourselves to other classes in the thread as it is titled to play to OUR strengths.

So what if X profession can do something better then us, that isn’t the point of the OP or I could be mistaken.

To play to our strengths I think we can start just from the beginning of a build. What are our best trait lines? Honor and Valor. Take what is the best traits from those lines and build from there. I.E. Selfless Daring – Use energy Sigils, Pure of Voice – Use Shouts, Purity – Just a great trait.

CMF.5461:

Right now we get closest to the most defensive class, and maybe support in “some” areas. But in a game with no tanks or healers and everyone has ready access to boons that they, then what is the point of being defensive and support. So then we go offense and that’s when people start to compare how we stand up to others.

So to sum it up, the problem is in the mind of some in the community, not in the Professions as a whole. They should be improved, but some things in people’s mind will never change. The common logic is flawed: “no tank and healers/everybody can support themselves=no point in defensive abilities/support… DPS is all that matters!” That’s a community’s perception problem, everything is viable but some won’t have any of it.

A Guardian shouldn’t be made into a Thief/Warrior/etc. because they are Guardians. There’s nothing wrong with going full offense with a Guardian, just never go claim that “my Profession can’t be as XXX as this other” afterwards. You decided to go full offense, so live with the choice, which isn’t good or bad, but up to individual taste and playstyle. If your burst can’t hit as hard as a Thief’s, it doesn’t mean that your offensive capabilities are flawed, but perhaps that it’s how the Profession generally works.

And why should we care when people start to compare DPS between Professions. It’s such a silly exercise, as if it was all that really mattered (fact of the day-GW2 isn’t only about direct damage). Just play your way and have fun.

Amins.3710:

Let’s put some things to rest.

- Guardian is not the best or even close to the best bunker in the game.

- Guardians are crippled in the mobility sector, as we are forced to go GS/Sword + JI. (IF that playstyle suits what you’re trying to do, you’re not crippled at all: Period. It has a ton of mobility, but you have to take those 2 weapons… at a cost of DPS (due to sword)… sword really needs a stun or imob (signets) ~or~ chill/cripple (we dont’ have) to become effective).

- Guardians are hands down the best point control / Group Damage NEGATION class in the game: Staff/Hammer + Wall + Sanct + Shield(s). PERIOD>

- Guardians have the best Group Stability in game.

- Guardian TOP Burst rotation is Gimmicky, but very good when pulled off.

- Guardian TOP Burst falls off w/ larger group vs group as splash/aoe dmg kills Focus and our low HP pool.

- Guardian Sustain is good.

- Guardian Group Healing is great.

~~~~
Guardians were the poster child for Balance and now that most classes have been balanced they are feeling ‘weak’, as we could previously take less survivability and add more DPS and still be ok… this is becoming less and less due to our significantly LOW HP pool as other classes get buffed to “our” standard…
~~~~~

The cycle will repeat.

Guardian’s are the best bunkers in the game. Look at the top tpvp teams and there bunker is a guardian. When you type something like they aren’t it basically invalidates everything else you wrote because most knowledgeable players will stop reading after that.

Not sure what our strengths are, it is defiantly not healing unfortunately. My ranger does better self healing than my guardian. Still trying to find a build that works for me, although on my other class’s I never say ahh crap its a guardian this fight is going to suck. I do say that about other class’s though.

Speaking of the only part of the game that matters WvW:

At least to me it is the only part that matters.

What I find the guardian lacking is mobility, and the ability to finish any one who wants to leave the fight….so perhaps a strong ranged option.

Mobility for example, our symbol of swiftness also slows us down as soon as a mob or some one from the chasing group steps in it making it detrimental to our health. Our great sword leap has the same cool down as the rangers although the ranger covers twice the distance as us. We also have no passive movement increase such as the rangers signit, engineers, necros, warriors etc.

If we do engage an enemy who wants to leave the fight their is little to nothing we can do about it, ele, ride the lightning, rangers swoop, thiefs, engineers etc. Often times our burst is not up to the task of finishing the kill.

SIGH … clearly some people aren’t getting the idea that a strength is something you do well, even if someone does it better or even if it’s not a great thing to do.

The idea you play to your strengths has NOTHING to do with the fact that a warrior is better sustain or a Ranger does better self heals. You guys are completely missing the point here.

One approach is the idea that the ‘best’ builds are the ones that will play up the most strengths a profession has.

Example: Why is Hammer so good? Why do people like shouts? Because it plays to MANY strengths. Why is Scepter and spirit weapons so crap? Because they play to hardly strengths.

Kwll.1468:

Amins.3710:

Let’s put some things to rest.

- Guardian is not the best or even close to the best bunker in the game.

- Guardians are crippled in the mobility sector, as we are forced to go GS/Sword + JI. (IF that playstyle suits what you’re trying to do, you’re not crippled at all: Period. It has a ton of mobility, but you have to take those 2 weapons… at a cost of DPS (due to sword)… sword really needs a stun or imob (signets) ~or~ chill/cripple (we dont’ have) to become effective).

- Guardians are hands down the best point control / Group Damage NEGATION class in the game: Staff/Hammer + Wall + Sanct + Shield(s). PERIOD>

- Guardians have the best Group Stability in game.

- Guardian TOP Burst rotation is Gimmicky, but very good when pulled off.

- Guardian TOP Burst falls off w/ larger group vs group as splash/aoe dmg kills Focus and our low HP pool.

- Guardian Sustain is good.

- Guardian Group Healing is great.

~~~~
Guardians were the poster child for Balance and now that most classes have been balanced they are feeling ‘weak’, as we could previously take less survivability and add more DPS and still be ok… this is becoming less and less due to our significantly LOW HP pool as other classes get buffed to “our” standard…
~~~~~

The cycle will repeat.

Guardian’s are the best bunkers in the game. Look at the top tpvp teams and there bunker is a guardian. When you type something like they aren’t it basically invalidates everything else you wrote because most knowledgeable players will stop reading after that.

Just because they run a guardian does not mean its ‘the best’ bunker. It’s the class that suits their style the most.

I thought that would have been evident.

Guardians are not the best bunker.

Obtena.7952:

SIGH … clearly some people aren’t getting the idea that a strength is something you do well, even if someone does it better or even if it’s not a great thing to do.

No I completely get it, play to our strengths even if our strengths are laughable. Like having a pinto in a crash up derby with bradleys and tiger IIs the pinto will have some strengths, just not any that are going to be worth while in an encounter. That is the problem, when in the only part of the game that matters we are not that great unless we have a zerg to hide behind.

Still trying to find a viable build, the class is fun although it is not a real threat when roaming and camp flipping.

ArchonWing.9480:

AtlasUnbound.1082:

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

The nature of the class system means that you cannot just take parallel builds and compare it like that. That wouldn’t be very exciting anyways.

So you claim your friend can support better than a guardian? Well, he might be able to get bigger numbers but pray tell, can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill? Or spam removal and turn them into boons. Or create 2 barriers that prevent enemies from coming in? Or bounce projectiles back to the enemy? Or provide protection with every 3rd attack? Group stability?

I don’t play warriors, but I’m just curious.

My build is mostly offense, but I can still provide most of these.

I’m not saying Guards are the best in the game, but I think people aren’t fully aware that they can do a lot more then some would imagine.

And yes, thanks.

First of all, you can compare like that. They should essentially be equal in the build or simply have some trade offs. Here you did list some of these trades so lets go over it. You did make some perfectly valid points. Thank you for that.

“Can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill?”

The answer is a no, not with 1 skill.
However he can get Shouts to remove conditions with Runes of the Soldier, which also buff his allies, and can heal as well should he choose. The heal of EACH SHOUT is higher than the use of the GUARDIAN virtue use effect. Meaning that he can double or triple it if he carries with just “For Great Justice” that has only a 25 second CD! This also give 3 stacks of might that last….. wait for it… that’s right, 25 seconds.

SUM IT UP:
“For Great Justice” (25 second cool down)
- Heal 2000+ HP
- Remove 1 condition
- Fury 8 seconds
- Might x3 25 seconds

Barriers, that’s just a no… 1 point for GUARDIAN.

Reflect Projectiles, Yes, Shield Skill 5 gets a trait for it.

Protection every 3rd attack, no. However it stops 33% of damage dealt. You can also get the same effect from spamming healing effects.
Now say he forgoes the healing shouts in favor of banners granting healing. This becomes a constant Buff that also heals constantly (for more than the guardian passive effect)
That persist until they time out even after downed or death.

Group Stability, yes, from the Battle Standard or Warbanner.
The stability effect is on a 15 second CD and can be used by anyone, not just the warrior. (again, the banner also heals allies if traited)
Not to mention that when the Warbanner drops it revives any downed allies in an AREA!
(This is something the GUARDIAN should have since he is seen as the Divine Magic Defender)
I have seen people on our server fight groups 2-3x larger than us JUST because some warriors were not greedy and brought this ability getting 5-6 players up with it at a time.

Now keep in mind, unlike the symbols these banners are mobile, and their effects are over a larger area.
Each one (except the Battle Standard) adds 170 of one stat.
170 Toughness and Vitality is an example of one of these.

Most of these effects are still achievable on an offensive build for the WARRIOR with just 1 defensive trait line.
Not to mention the MUCH larger health pool they get over the GUARDIAN.

~ Thanks for being civil guys.

Actually with these claims that rangers and warriors heal more, I would like to see the evidence of this.

Not saying its false but I want to see the numbers. Staff pumps a good amount of healing on its own, this is outside of traits and gearing.

Bailey.6892:

Obtena.7952:

SIGH … clearly some people aren’t getting the idea that a strength is something you do well, even if someone does it better or even if it’s not a great thing to do.

No I completely get it, play to our strengths even if our strengths are laughable.

I hope you aren’t implying our strengths are ‘laughable’ if you intend to be taken seriously by anyone. If Guardian isn’t working for you, it’s not the profession that has a problem. There are many effective builds for Guardian in WvW, including ones for roaming and camp flipping, all well documented in this forum by people more experienced in it than you or I. I suggest you give those a serious run for your money if you are going to challenge the notion established by very experienced players that Guardian is a more than effective WvW class.

AtlasUnbound.1082:

ArchonWing.9480:

AtlasUnbound.1082:

ArchonWing.9480:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

Guardians are terrible. It takes 5 people to remove me from a circle. It should take 50. I hope all the scrubs get this message and will abandon this class asap and stop making us look bad.

;)

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Guardians, but I am finding out that Warriors can do all the same things, just better. As far as all of my play has gone anyway. Maybe its just me? Maybe the Warrior and I just sync better.

P.S. GREAT Quote BTW.

The nature of the class system means that you cannot just take parallel builds and compare it like that. That wouldn’t be very exciting anyways.

So you claim your friend can support better than a guardian? Well, he might be able to get bigger numbers but pray tell, can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill? Or spam removal and turn them into boons. Or create 2 barriers that prevent enemies from coming in? Or bounce projectiles back to the enemy? Or provide protection with every 3rd attack? Group stability?

I don’t play warriors, but I’m just curious.

My build is mostly offense, but I can still provide most of these.

I’m not saying Guards are the best in the game, but I think people aren’t fully aware that they can do a lot more then some would imagine.

And yes, thanks.

First of all, you can compare like that. They should essentially be equal in the build or simply have some trade offs. Here you did list some of these trades so lets go over it. You did make some perfectly valid points. Thank you for that.

My point is that trying to play one class like another is inevitably going to result in discrepancies.

“Can he remove every condition from his nearby allies with one skill?”

The answer is a no, not with 1 skill.
However he can get Shouts to remove conditions with Runes of the Soldier, which also buff his allies, and can heal as well should he choose. The heal of EACH SHOUT is higher than the use of the GUARDIAN virtue use effect. Meaning that he can double or triple it if he carries with just “For Great Justice” that has only a 25 second CD! This also give 3 stacks of might that last….. wait for it… that’s right, 25 seconds.

This is not a valid comparison because Runes of the Soldier are not specific to warriors. Guardians can remove even more conditions with it, and also you really can’t compare virtues that are basically handed to you for every fight compared to a utility slot.

Protection every 3rd attack, no. However it stops 33% of damage dealt. You can also get the same effect from spamming healing effects.
Now say he forgoes the healing shouts in favor of banners granting healing. This becomes a constant Buff that also heals constantly (for more than the guardian passive effect)
That persist until they time out even after downed or death.

That’s a bit of an apples vs oranges things. Depending on who you are buffing, -33% Protection to the less tanky is most likely more valuable. Not gonna say who’s better.

However, you should realize that the hammer protection requires no investment to be effective besides the hammer itself. You can offer it regardless of gear or traits and still work very well. Healing, at least healing that matters, isn’t necessarily the same thing.

Group Stability, yes, from the Battle Standard or Warbanner.
The stability effect is on a 15 second CD and can be used by anyone, not just the warrior. (again, the banner also heals allies if traited)

That… actually sounds pretty good.

Now keep in mind, unlike the symbols these banners are mobile, and their effects are over a larger area.
Each one (except the Battle Standard) adds 170 of one stat.
170 Toughness and Vitality is an example of one of these.

Most of these effects are still achievable on an offensive build for the WARRIOR with just 1 defensive trait line.

Well, nobody will doubt that warriors have superior mobility to guardians. This is where they have the edge for sure.

You’re not necessarily wrong. I just think you’re most likely underestimating the value of certain things.

I’ve tried many builds in this year, for example, retaliation or blind oriented, symbol optimizing, AH…..many many. Finally I focus on to maintain the equilibrium of sustain, support and damage. I found that it can’t be reached without investment lot of trait points in the lines of toughness and Health.

Compared to warrior, trying different builds can make me feel unique and novel and make me find a new position in different circumstances of group playing.

Lots of people in here saying that Warriors are better than Guardians in every aspect.. I hope this is a PvE thread.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think guardians are bad.

We’re useful in every venue of the game.

Are we the best in any section? Probably not, no, but we’re still useful. We don’t have glaring issues like necromancers and engineers, certainly.

The primary reason warriors are not better bunkers than guardians is the lack of protection. Warriors have none.

While a warrior may be able to get high amount of regen and have a higher health pool, they are weaker against burst builds than guardians. In addition a regen warrior has no burst healing.

A guardian can withstand burst better due to a very high uptime on protection and has burst healing. Furthermore, a regen warrior provides less support to the group that a shout guardian.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think guardians are bad.

We’re useful in every venue of the game.

Are we the best in any section? Probably not, no, but we’re still useful. We don’t have glaring issues like necromancers and engineers, certainly.

He was joking =).

Superkav.5012:

The primary reason warriors are not better bunkers than guardians is the lack of protection. Warriors have none.

While a warrior may be able to get high amount of regen and have a higher health pool, they are weaker against burst builds than guardians. In addition a regen warrior has no burst healing.

A guardian can withstand burst better due to a very high uptime on protection and has burst healing. Furthermore, a regen warrior provides less support to the group that a shout guardian.

Dito, also Guardian best strength is not the healing but damage prevention, one thing i noticed is that guardian has the role of the protection monk, while warriors work more like the paragon, with alot of party buffs.

Wow … I cannot believe some the comments in this thread …

First, my views are all PvE focused, I don’t give a toss about PvP / WvW.

Guardians have no idea what a ‘jack-of-all-trades’ class that does nothing, and I mean NOTHING, well is until you play a ranger. Period.

Bland traits?? Hell, I will take ‘bland’ traits that work and have some synchronisation with each other and weapons /utility skills over the uncoordinated mess rangers have any day.

I came to the guardian profession in Jan/Feb after maining a ranger since game launch. The only thing rangers have that guardians don’t is 25% speed buff signet, and that was introduced at the same time anet took away our one and only DPS burst skill. That is it, a bit of perm mobility if you run that signet. And please, do not mention ranger spirits, these are still a major profession embarrassment, of which rangers have many.

Sorry, rangers have one other thing guardian don’t have, their class mechanic is a liability. Rangers are penalised for having pets.

If guardians are a pinto, then rangers are a gremlin (if anyone remembers or knows that car).

And if some of you are only now realising that warriors are anet’s favorite child, where have you been for the past year??

So what if some of the other classes have been buffed here and there. I don’t the see guardians being kicked from dungeons any time soon …