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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I’m liking the positives getting posted and very good point that our strengths don’t have to mean better than everyone else, but simply what we do well in our own rights.

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

Its hard to say play to your strengths when the class is pretty average at almost everything.

We have to spec way deep into both gear and traits to do anything even remotely well.

About the only thing I feel the Best at is providing defense for my team mates, but it comes at a pretty big cost and is most noticeable in dungeons. And it is a YAWN playstyle that few people really enjoy.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

Its hard to say play to your strengths when the class is pretty average at almost everything.

We have to spec way deep into both gear and traits to do anything even remotely well.

About the only thing I feel the Best at is providing defense for my team mates, but it comes at a pretty big cost and is most noticeable in dungeons. And it is a YAWN playstyle that few people really enjoy.

I don’t understand what you are saying. What profession can do things well without traiting or gearing towards it?

Uturunku Yana, Guardian / Chullachaqui Yana, Engie
Group Stability is a hell of a Drug – Rick James
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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

Its hard to say play to your strengths when the class is pretty average at almost everything.

We have to spec way deep into both gear and traits to do anything even remotely well.

About the only thing I feel the Best at is providing defense for my team mates, but it comes at a pretty big cost and is most noticeable in dungeons. And it is a YAWN playstyle that few people really enjoy.

We are not “average at almost everything”….

Not sure where you’re getting that from. If it’s from personal experience, then I would suggest rummaging through the forum and finding another build that better suits ~your~ play-style.

Guardians are very good at a couple of things and not so hot at the others.

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

It’s a typical trap for this class to spec only for support, and then proceed to complain that you can’t do anything else.

One needs to realize that you can only pick so many traits and utility skills so analyzing all these skills in a vacuum with other classes is highly inaccurate.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Kirschwasser.3972

Kirschwasser.3972

Guardians are bad and need buffs and by the Six Anet pls make us heal for more and do more damage. And more mobility and CC too please, like cripples. Thx.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think guardians are bad.

We’re useful in every venue of the game.

Are we the best in any section? Probably not, no, but we’re still useful. We don’t have glaring issues like necromancers and engineers, certainly.

He was joking =).

It was very late when I wrote that response. Rereading his post now, I can’t imagine for the life of me why I thought he was serious.

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

Sorry it took me so long to reply.

I do admit you have several valid points.

First of all I want you to keep in mind I want to play the class the way it was intended.

The only thing I could be accused of is playing a Warrior LIKE a Guardian, not the other way around. Ironically the Warrior is still seeming to do the Guardian’s job better.

This all did star with an offensive warrior build being better at supporting than a support guardian build.

Then he respec’d for it and my jaw hit the keyboard is awe.

I don’t want you to get the idea that these were small differences that made me think, “That seems to be better”

This was an OUTRAGEOUS difference.
These shouts as I tested again last night are healing for around 2400 HP EACH, with a 20 Second cool down using my build.
That’s healing me AND all nearby allies.
Also buffing which negates most conditions.

In order to stack Shouts on a Guardian to change Conditions into Boons. You would almost HAVE to stack 3 shouts because the cool downs are 30-35 seconds on the SHORTEST CD shouts.

Not to mention you have to give up Battle Presence for the condition to boon effect.

Are you really going to give up abilities like Intervention or Sanctuary in place of more Shouts?

Then they give the Guardian greedy traits like Monk’s Focus. Instead of having it heal an ally it heals their self.

Healing Breeze is a cone in front of you so you have to move to the back of the group to hit people instead of having it AOE around you so you can stay out in the front.

So then you have to look at this. The good defensive abilities have such long cool downs compared to the offensive for the guardian.

Sanctuary 180 Seconds
Hallowed Ground 80 Seconds

With their mighty divine magics they ca revive just 1 target?

The warrior waves around a friggin flag and can get as many people up as he can fit in the AOE.

(edited by AtlasUnbound.1082)

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

[quote=2588627;AtlasUnbound.1082:]

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

Sorry it took me so long to reply.

I do admit you have several valid points.

First of all I want you to keep in mind I want to play the class the way it was intended.

The only thing I could be accused of is playing a Warrior LIKE a Guardian, not the other way around. Ironically the Warrior is still seeming to do the Guardian’s job better.

This all did star with an offensive warrior build being better at supporting than a support guardian build.

Then he respec’d for it and my jaw hit the keyboard is awe.

I don’t want you to get the idea that these were small differences that made me think, “That seems to be better”

This was an OUTRAGEOUS difference.
These shouts as I tested again last night are healing for around 2400 HP EACH, with a 20 Second cool down using my build.
That’s healing me AND all nearby allies.
Also buffing which negates most conditions.

In order to stack Shouts on a Guardian to change Conditions into Boons. You would almost HAVE to stack 3 shouts because the cool downs are 30-35 seconds on the SHORTEST CD shouts.

Not to mention you have to give up Battle Presence for the condition to boon effect.

Are you really going to give up abilities like Intervention or Sanctuary in place of more Shouts?

Then they give the Guardian greedy traits like Monk’s Focus. Instead of having it heal an ally it heals their self.

Healing Breeze is a cone in front of you so you have to move to the back of the group to hit people instead of having it AOE around you so you can stay out in the front.

So then you have to look at this. The good defensive abilities have such long cool downs compared to the offensive for the guardian.

Sanctuary 180 Seconds
Hallowed Ground 80 Seconds

With their mighty divine magics they ca revive just 1 target?

The warrior waves around a friggin flag and can get as many people up as he can fit in the AOE.

Did you take in account the guardians dodge rolling trait and the heals on the staff? How about the heals on the mace?

VoR?

Uturunku Yana, Guardian / Chullachaqui Yana, Engie
Group Stability is a hell of a Drug – Rick James
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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

S

Ironically the Warrior is still seeming to do the Guardian’s job better.

This all did star with an offensive warrior build being better at supporting than a support guardian build.

Then he respec’d for it and my jaw hit the keyboard is awe.

I don’t want you to get the idea that these were small differences that made me think, “That seems to be better”

This was an OUTRAGEOUS difference.
These shouts as I tested again last night are healing for around 2400 HP EACH, with a 20 Second cool down using my build.
That’s healing me AND all nearby allies.
Also buffing which negates most conditions.

In order to stack Shouts on a Guardian to change Conditions into Boons. You would almost HAVE to stack 3 shouts because the cool downs are 30-35 seconds on the SHORTEST CD shouts.

So then you have to look at this. The good defensive abilities have such long cool downs compared to the offensive for the guardian.

Sanctuary 180 Seconds
Hallowed Ground 80 Seconds

What you have not experienced is the following:

- Tome of Courge – 1s casts healing for 1800-2300 for 20s.
- Empower – 16s Cooldown, heals for 3.1k and stakcs 12 might.
- VoR – ticks for 170+
- Stability (Stand your Ground – Stun Break)
- Wall of Reflection
- Sanctuary (or HTL – 35s colldown, heals for 2800 over 7s).
- 80% Swiftness uptime + Light Field for Conditon Removal
- 2 – 2.5k Ranged AoE heal every 8s.
- 1.25-2k Dodge Roll Healing every 6s (dont’ even get me started w/ Sigil of Stamina… i’m freak’n yoda w/ this)
- Point Control – LoW
- 150 Toughness to 5 people

That’s just w/ the Staff, in ONE SPEC (0/0/30/30/10), and doesn’t encroach on anyone’s Regen…. pure healing and damage negation..

How a Guardian “Supports” thier team is incredibly different: The warrior can’t even come close to doing this

You can check out many of my video’s on the Hammer/Support section… from small roaming group to zerg roaming/open field, to tower zerg defense.

Having said all that… this does NOT mean that there aren’t issues w/ the class. This is the spec the devs’ intended guardians to play in larger scale battles.. and for the most part, it is the ~only~ spec to play because it is just soooo darn over the top that anything else is over-shadowed completely….

though I do love my hammer – perma light field + protection w/ symbols healing, shout build…. which the warrior cannot do… either. /grin

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

(edited by Amins.3710)

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Posted by: akamon.2769

akamon.2769

hmm, anecdotal evidence – if i’m forming up a PUG dungeon run, and i am running Guardian, i see two more Guardians joining up? we KNOW it’s going to be faceroll easy. and we just go huehuehue never die. EVEN if people aren’t specced for support, a lot of the Guardian’s abilities are by nature supportive. a lot of skills we do are defensive AND offensive at the same time. imagine if a dedicated player puts his heart into supporting, all the while doing consistent, sustained damage.

if we must compare…. if i join a group, and i see 3 warriors, i don’t think this is going to be faceroll. no one says anything actually.

not saying Warrior’s can’t run dungeons. not saying Guardian’s is easy mode. it does still depend on the player, obviously, but i think people’s reactions to that are testament to what the class can provide in small group content to a certain extent.

and this is just one instance where the Guardian can shine. again, not saying we’re the best at it, but we’re kitten GOOD at it without a doubt.

Akaimon | Jolly Good Guardian
Akaigi | Warrior Made of Wood
[CDS] – Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: bri.2359

bri.2359

hmm, anecdotal evidence – if i’m forming up a PUG dungeon run, and i am running Guardian, i see two more Guardians joining up? we KNOW it’s going to be faceroll easy. and we just go huehuehue never die.

I have been in some guild dungeon runs with 2 other guardians that have been terrible.

3 guards does not necessarily mean all will go well if one or 2 of them are either badly specc’ed, or do not understand the class, or do not understand the dungeon, or are simply bad players. Just saying …

Lvl 80’s: Ranger; Guardian; Mesmer; Necromancer; Thief
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Posted by: akamon.2769

akamon.2769

fair enough. thus why i stated the anecdotal disclaimer. everyone’s mileage may vary obviously. but i’ve had enough experiences, same as those in my party at those times, who i’ve never met before, where having many Guards did trivialize a lot of the more riskier content in the game, for us to have that perception.

not saying it’s fact, but at least for me, more cases than not, that has been the case. ; ))

by your virtue, if we take into the players ability, understanding of mechanics game and class and encounter at hand, any class can be the “best” class, and any class can be the “worst” class.

[added: again, just highlighting the innate sustainability the Guardian has, whether or not specced for it, that we can bring for ourselves, as well as those around us.]

Akaimon | Jolly Good Guardian
Akaigi | Warrior Made of Wood
[CDS] – Sanctum of Rall

(edited by akamon.2769)

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

@AtlasUnbound

I think you need to understand the guardian a little more before being discouraged when comparing it to the warrior. After looking at everything, if you are still discouraged then you will have to wait for changes from Anet or I’d play the warrior.

Also I think we are derailing the thread as the discussion is to play to our strengths and not comparing our strengths to other professions.

Uturunku Yana, Guardian / Chullachaqui Yana, Engie
Group Stability is a hell of a Drug – Rick James
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Posted by: akamon.2769

akamon.2769

above all else, we got blue bubbles!

Akaimon | Jolly Good Guardian
Akaigi | Warrior Made of Wood
[CDS] – Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

^ Here is akamon the pro guardian right here utilizing a bubble.

Attachments:

Uturunku Yana, Guardian / Chullachaqui Yana, Engie
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Posted by: bri.2359

bri.2359

LOL!!

/15chara

Lvl 80’s: Ranger; Guardian; Mesmer; Necromancer; Thief
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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

^ Here is akamon the pro guardian right here utilizing a bubble.

haha, nice one!

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Great, now we are going to get nerfed due to the oversized bubble exploit

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

Guardian needs more skills and traits that are designed to enhance themselves and not others. Guardian being support oriented is odd for a game that shuns supportive roles. I feel this ties into the need for most guardian players to spec into a support oriented build.

Because of low hp the class is forced to spec into something that can consistently restore hp. This alone tends to isolate radiance and to a degree zeal builds because they have nothing that can sustain the guardian’s low hp pool. While other classes have high health for a form of mitigation, ways to negate damage by escaping. Guardian doesn’t have this.

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

Though I do love my hammer – perma light field + protection w/ symbols healing, shout build…. which the warrior cannot do… either. /grin[/quote]

[The symbols that heal about 600 HP, not impressed]

- Tome of Courage – 1s casts healing for 1800-2300 for 20s.

[The tome that roots you in place while you get beat on, or the tome that roots you in place and has short range so you can’t actually heal the group in WvW because they moved away from you? Oh wait, they are the same.]

- Empower – 16s Cool down, heals for 3.1k and stacks 12 might.
[ I think you are talking about the ability that roots you in place here too but I’m not sure… oh yea it has a 2.5 sec cast time before the heal goes off. Warrior shouts can heal for just as much and are instant, and can be used while in the fray]

- VoR – ticks for 170+
[This is entirely negligible. The use effect can heal for 2.5K but so can warrior shouts]
[Also if you don’t get shouts heal, Warriors banners heal for 400+ a second]

- Stability (Stand your Ground – Stun Break)
[We already covered this, Warbanner, try to keep up]

- Wall of Reflection

- Sanctuary (or HTL – 35s cool down, heals for 2800 over 7s).
[Hold on to your hats kid, this is about to blow, YOUR MIND. Sanctuary Heals for around 3000 HP, for everyone you can manage to get in that bubble. Which it is inevitable that someone is going to get missed. It also has a 120 SECOND COOL DOWN. Shouts heal, just use FEAR ME! 60 Second CD, Heals for 2500 HP, hits EVERYONE AND buts nearby enemies out of commission for 2-3 seconds. Use it twice, get more healing AND you can MOVE WHILE DOING IT!]

[Say you want to go to Hold The Line instead. BANNER OF TACTICS, Heals for about 30 HP less but over 5.5 seconds, and only has a 10 second cool down, but wait there’s more. That’s right folks, ANYONE can use it, not just the Warrior.]

[NOTE: It also has swiftness AND…. increases healing bower by 170, AND… Boon duration by 10%]

- 80% Swiftness uptime + Light Field for Condition Removal

[You didn’t quote an ability here]

- 2 – 2.5k Ranged AoE heal every 8s.
[Again no quoted ability, I’m guessing you mean

- 1.25-2k Dodge Roll Healing every 6s (don’t even get me started w/ Sigil of Stamina… i’m freak’n yoda w/ this)
- Point Control – LoW

- 150 Toughness to 5 people
[See notes on Banner of Tactics above, also +170 Power from the Warrior traits.]

Its like you all insist on repeating the same discussion that ArchonWing.9480 and I had.

Except you seem to be doing a poor job.

I Really want you to realize the Warrior is doing ALL OF THIS WITH JUST THE LAST 4 SKILLS ON HIS HOT BAR. 3 Utility and 1 Elite skill. Not bringing weapon skills and still keeping up with the Guardian. All the while he can take much more damage, stay in melee range, stun, and bleed his targets.

Or use a bow and combo field with Fire and Blast for AREA MIGHT!

You are going to need a Much better build than support staff Guardian to keep up. Because this Warrior can heal more, buff more often, take more damage, actually put out damage, and do it all while mobile and not rooted to specific area with cast times.

Not to mention the AOE RALLY!

Get your big boy pants on and bring your “A” game guys.

You are not covering any other bases that ArchonWing.9480 and I have not brought up to each other.

Just a comment on the Guardian hammer…Have you seen the long animation for that last hit? The only way to get the most out of it is to hit a target with it AND an ally as well. Only useful for gate smashing. (Again you are using weapons skills but I will indulge you. The warrior is doing all this with no weapon skills and still out healing you.)

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

But lets take a break from the Shout build I use, lets check out my friend who uses a more Banner oriented build.

He uses 3 banners

- 400-500 HP per second
- +170 Healing
- +10% boon duration
- +170 Toughness
- +170 Vitality
- +170 Power (from traits)
- Each one can cast swiftness
- 1 of them has a heal cast with 10 second CD
- 1 of them can AOE Rally
- That same one can cast Stability
- All of this over a MASSIVE AREA and can be taken to the next location and once they are dropped, no work need be done, its all passive.

Then he just yells “For Great Justice”

Hahahahahaha

I have been playing a Guardian since Beta, so don’t think I am unfamiliar, Blasino.3128.
All of these are supposed to be the strengths of the Guardians, yet the Warrior does it better, faster, and more often, barely has to spec for it, is much more mobile, and still does damage.

At least now that I have a consensus that you are all on the same page and similar builds I know it wasn’t me. I was playing the guardian to their fullest.

All that support and still cant take a real hit ( due to low health pool)

I can get the same effect from my Warrior and stay on the front line like a man.

P.S. Please don’t forget to spell check kids… a little goes a long way.

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

Just a comment on the Guardian hammer…Have you seen the long animation for that last hit? The only way to get the most out of it is to hit a target with it AND an ally as well. Only useful for gate smashing. (Again you are using weapons skills but I will indulge you. The warrior is doing all this with no weapon skills and still out healing you.)

I’ve come to the conclusion you have absolutely no idea how a guardian is played, seeing as you misquoted almost every skill and really just, plain and simply, either don’t understand the mechanics of the class or just haven’t figured it out yet….

On top of that, you do not understand the overall game mechanics of “sources”: Boons Vs. Direct.

G’luck to you, as I truly do not have time to show you the way and clearly, this class is not for you.

Best wishes.

Amins – Guardian
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(edited by Amins.3710)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Let me try to turn this thread around and clarify my intent.

Stealth, burst, and escaping are a strength of rogues which define the class and make them strong
Conditions and control are a strength of necromancers which define the class and make them strong
Illusions and evasions are a strength of mesmers which define the class and make them strong
Mobility and pets are a strength of rangers which defines the class and makes them strong?
Diversity and fluidity (jack of all trades) is a strength of elementalists which defines the class and makes them strong
Offense and attacks are a strength of warriors which defines the class and makes them strong.
Mobility and kits/gadgets are a strength of engineers which defines the class and makes them strong.

So in general, group support and healing are a strength of guardians which defines the class and makes them strong?

Or is this statement not true enough?

What do we have that makes other players worry about if confronting us or celebrate for bringing us?

Granted I’m not fully knowledgeable at all the other profession, so the other statements may be off as well. But that was the intent at my original post.

What do we guardians do that makes people fear/want us?

I do agree to some degree that healing/support are not as high on the appreciation list at the current junction of this game, but hopefully we will start to shift the meta away from just damage eventually.

This whole topic comes on the heels of the zerker is everything mindset, and the overwhelming orientation on defensive mechanics the guardian has. While guards still have a good spotlight in groups for pve and pvp on being supporty and defensive, and we do have a good crowd going offensive….should we bother going offensive, or just play to our strengths? Do we have offensive strengths? or are they just mediocre overall?

Are we still “fine”, as everyone says?

Every AMA or Dev talk/interview I watch the speakers bring us guardians and the consensus is kind of a shrug and a non emotional “guardians? they are ok”.

Nothing real strong or weak, just ok. I think we deserve better/more attention.

There is always room for improvements and I want to push the envelope.

(edited by CMF.5461)

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

Just a comment on the Guardian hammer…Have you seen the long animation for that last hit? The only way to get the most out of it is to hit a target with it AND an ally as well. Only useful for gate smashing. (Again you are using weapons skills but I will indulge you. The warrior is doing all this with no weapon skills and still out healing you.)

I’ve come to the conclusion you have absolutely no idea how a guardian is played, seeing as you misquoted almost every skill and really just, plain and simply, either don’t understand the mechanics of the class or just haven’t figured it out yet….

On top of that, you do not understand the overall game mechanics of “sources”: Boons Vs. Direct.

G’luck to you, as I truly do not have time to show you the way and clearly, this class is not for you.

Best wishes.

Thank goodness that guy is done talking. I don’t even think he read ANYTHING that I posted. He just assumed I was wrong about something just because I don’t agree with him.

Take a good long read here “Jethro”
I quote many of the Boons that the warrior puts out as well as the Direct healing. (instead of the indirect damage prevention like Protection or Condition Removal)
I think you may need to get a grip on a few of the finer point.

In order to get the most out of the Hammer’s 3 hit you have to hit both an enemy AND an ally. Since the ability does damage AND grants boon (or that tiny tiny thing you call a heal if you get it for symbols though traits)

Base stats on Symbol of Protection (Level 80,no stats applied)
Cast Time: 1 1/4 Seconds!
Damage: 370
Damage (x3): 555
Symbol Duration: 2 seconds
Protection(3stacks): 1 second

Total time to use this is 2.25 seconds due to the first 2 attacks.

But because of the super low health pool, losing 90 toughness (for not having a shield)
AND losing the 62ish defense (you can correct me on that, not sure on that one)
You lose more than you gain in the 3 second interval.
That should be a total defense loss of 152 (toughness is 1:1 for defense)

Next time just try to stick to nice, helpful, CONVERSATION!
You know, a couple of facts and numerical data too maybe.
Instead of trying to be an @$$, then doing a bad job at it.

~Thanks ;-)

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

So in general, group support and healing are a strength of guardians which defines the class and makes them strong?

This is odd because gw2 was designed around self support, but clearly guardian has become more of a traditional type support/healer, something gw2 devs went against. And here lies the problem with the class, they are designed to support in a game that doesn’t really cater to support.

This brings up a lot of issues that are present with traditional support classes, which generally include a few common symptoms: low hp, mediocre damage and lack of mobility. The only thing separating guardian from the traditional healer/support class is the fact they are a heavy armor user.

Another issue is anet’s philosophy about the class, which was they gave them teleports and no escape skills because they wanted them to stay and fight within the group of enemies. Problem? Really only on trait does this well and thats AH. If a guardian was to go radiance + zeal then they could not live up to that expectation set by anet, since there is nothing in either trait line that allows guardian to live long enough to stay in the midst of enemies.

This is why common complaints pop up such as mobility, ranged damage and low health, because most of the guardian traits do not reinforce that description set by anet.

If anet wanted to build upon their idea, then each trait tree would have to provide some sort of sustain to balance the low hp pool. Maybe a trait that changes in radiance that gives a brief buff that steals hp from incoming attackers.

Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
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(edited by Aza.2105)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I am seeing some of these same holes as you Aza, I don’t think it is all totally bleak and in dire straights, but there is room to tighten things up and give us a proper strength that isn’t hindered by the no trinity philosophy.

Also, please refrain from flaming each other and bragging. I wanted this to be constructive not destructive.

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Posted by: AtlasUnbound.1082

AtlasUnbound.1082

Let me try to turn this thread around and clarify my intent.

Stealth, burst, and escaping are a strength of rogues which define the class and make them strong
Conditions and control are a strength of necromancers which define the class and make them strong
Illusions and evasions are a strength of mesmers which define the class and make them strong
Mobility and pets are a strength of rangers which defines the class and makes them strong?
Diversity and fluidity (jack of all trades) is a strength of elementalists which defines the class and makes them strong
Offense and attacks are a strength of warriors which defines the class and makes them strong.
Mobility and kits/gadgets are a strength of engineers which defines the class and makes them strong.

So in general, group support and healing are a strength of guardians which defines the class and makes them strong?

Or is this statement not true enough?

What do we have that makes other players worry about if confronting us or celebrate for bringing us?

Granted I’m not fully knowledgeable at all the other profession, so the other statements may be off as well. But that was the intent at my original post.

What do we guardians do that makes people fear/want us?

I do agree to some degree that healing/support are not as high on the appreciation list at the current junction of this game, but hopefully we will start to shift the meta away from just damage eventually.

This whole topic comes on the heels of the zerker is everything mindset, and the overwhelming orientation on defensive mechanics the guardian has. While guards still have a good spotlight in groups for pve and pvp on being supporty and defensive, and we do have a good crowd going offensive….should we bother going offensive, or just play to our strengths? Do we have offensive strengths? or are they just mediocre overall?

Are we still “fine”, as everyone says?

Every AMA or Dev talk/interview I watch the speakers bring us guardians and the consensus is kind of a shrug and a non emotional “guardians? they are ok”.

Nothing real strong or weak, just ok. I think we deserve better/more attention.

There is always room for improvements and I want to push the envelope.

I do agree with you, in excess I might add.

I really do see the “meh” feeling that is given off by a guardian.

That is why the warrior has been my prime example.
He can do the group support and healing role rather nicely.
For that matter so can Engineers. (who also oddly enough get an AOE RALLY?)
[not saying the Engineer is as good at it as the Guardian, I crunched the number, not quite enough Ooph from their skills + it’s too random sometimes)

I understand the Guardian does these things, but how come another class does it better.

Keep warriors the way they are, but show the Guardian some love.

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

I mostly play spvp and from my experiences the Guardian excels mostly when supporting over damage(I think everyone knows this). The Guardian has very few passive traits that offer substantial benefit besides Vigorous precision. I think since the main benefit for guardians relies heavily on symbols, it should be substantial. Quite a few other professions can maintain significant survivability while staying mobile.

With less than desirable mobility, burst damage, escapability, obviously telegraphed skills, condition application, skills that heavily rely upon being near teammates for full effect and a few others. One would think we would be stronger in more areas than just support.

I’m not saying this profession is kitten, this is absolutely not the case since all teams run with at least one Guardian. However, said Guardian is always the bunker to provide support for their team and nothing else. With the recent Warrior buffs, they’re getting dangerously close if not on par with Guardians in terms of personal condition management. I guess with the current meta, this is expected.

I always compare this profession to the warrior since it closely resembles it. If we were to compare/contrast each professions viability overall, I think it would look something like this.

Burst: Warrior>Guardian
Mobility: Warrior>Guardian
Condition application: Warrior>Guardian
Support: Guardian>Warrior
Personal Condition management: Warrior=Guardian
Team condition removal: Guardian>Warrior
Escapability: Warrior>Guardian

I want to improve both professions to be viable in any situation. Hopefully we can have a discussion on how to make them all worthwhile.

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Posted by: Scaramuccia.1258

Scaramuccia.1258

Defense abilities are the strength of the guardian. Especially, the ability to effectively use them in full offensive build, like 0/30/0/30/10 without dps drop.

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

The real strengths of the Guardian are in it’s ability to hold a point more than anything else. To me, this is counterintuitive to the games design of mobile combat. This along with no real utilities that benefit just us for a longer period and instead using skills to help ourselves as well as others for a rather short period of time(5 seconds usually).

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

I am seeing some of these same holes as you Aza, I don’t think it is all totally bleak and in dire straights, but there is room to tighten things up and give us a proper strength that isn’t hindered by the no trinity philosophy.

Also, please refrain from flaming each other and bragging. I wanted this to be constructive not destructive.

I don’t feel its bleak, but negatives do exist that are very contrast to guardians few positives. While thinking what can be done about guardians lack of sustained healing outside of AH, I thought about this from GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Protection

If guardian had a elite like this, lets say on a 60sec cd, 5-10 sec duration. Then it would be possible to stay in the midst of enemy groups without having to spec into valor or honor. Something like this would make zeal, radiance and to a degree virtues more attractive.

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

Our “Sustain” healing might feel like it “lacks” in comparison to others because of the 3rd source of stacking….

Ours comes from “Symbols Heal”, which is yet again, in the Honor Tree…

Guardian:
Regen
VoR
Symbols Heal.

Ranger:
Regen
Signet
BM

Warrior:
Regen
Signet
Adrenaline

It’s the 3 sources that makes the bunker builds so effective while still being mobile… add in an Ele Partner and now you have 3 passive sources that cannot be removed + regen.

Now, ofcourse, this doesn’t take into account every other source of healing we have…

I don’t believe our “sustain” lacks, but that we give up an incredible amount of offense in order to have this… which other classes don’t.

Therein lies the issue w/ bunker guardians.

Most of the other classes that bunker down tend to go into Conditions… unfortunatly, we only have Burn…. and an abundance of it.

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

(edited by Amins.3710)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Amins, that is pretty astute and insightful concerning what gives us sustain. Lately I have been messing around in pvp with a 0/0/20/30/20 setup or a 0/10/10/30/20 setup, but it always revolves around regen, symbols, and vor (depending on if I want more crit or not for endurance).

We do get encouraged to go down the honor and valor trees a lot, which do not have a lot of offensive potential. This in turn makes us 99% defensive.

With no meaningful condition damage and no threatening way to do that burning damage, we find ourselves punching bags and boon bots. Still this brings up another point, while we have an abundance of burning which hasn’t been very threatening while bunkering, we DO have retaliation, which has proven threatening to some classes. This is especially true in group fights.

So the next question is two part: Does our retaliation make up for the lack of offensive ability while bunkering? Can we improve our burning damage while being a bunker to make it threatening to attack us?


On other fronts, I was checking out some of the offensive based builds again and I have noticed a lot of people touting Brazil’s PvE dungeon build. This build revolves around radiance as the core of its offense while going down honor for group utility.

Another strength of guardian’s I think is our ability to get high amounts of crit with 1h weapons. Do we have the highest possible crit rating out of all classes?

In essence we can ensure that 1h weapons always do 1.5+ extra damage, which in essence allows us to gear for crit damage and reach near 100% crit damage and ignore power for the most part. This changes the 500 damage attacks on the tooltips into 1000 damage crits with 90-100% crit chance.

All of this while ignoring the zeal tree and emphasizing survival traits (blinds, voj refresh, shouts, dodge heals, endurance).

(edited by CMF.5461)

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

^^

It wouldn’t be as big of an issue if it wasn’t for the fact that Burning → Condi… Retal → Pwr.

Two entirely different builds, yet while bunkering, you need more than 1-2 sources of primary dmg.

Condi’ builds have multiple dmg sourcing and dmg negation: poison/burn/bleed/conf/terror…. Chill/Cripple/WEAKNESS…

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

Maybe the balance comes that our bunker builds can incorporate Area denial and CC?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Not sure if we have an overwhelming CC ability, area denial is mostly in the form of wards, which are fairly good but not sure if it is a trade off since it is on a decently long cooldown and short duration.

As far as knockbacks, hammer has a decent cooldown, shield is fairly long though.

It would be nice if mace protectors strike had an ae knockback like it looked like it did in some of the promotional videos before release ><

Trying to avoid comparing to engineers, warriors, mesmers, elemntalists, and maybe even necros as far as area denial/CC. At most I would say we have good group area denial/CC, but others might have more frequent single target area denial/CC.

I do feel retaliation is pretty powerful, and works well with clerics gear since you don’t need critD/precision to make it work. The only downside is that again it is not specific to guardians, but that confuses what we do well with what we do uniquely. Fine line to walk when looking for our strengths.

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

Maybe the balance comes that our bunker builds can incorporate Area denial and CC?

I think anet’s definition of area denial isn’t fairly accurate. The way it plays out in real time is a guardian drops a symbol or if you use scepter, skill #2 and it causes enemies to scatter. This works often, but its sort of self defeating. Enemies move out the area yes, but the problem is guardian no longer does damage to them.

Guardian CC is lacking, there isn’t much at all. And its found in odd places, skills that players don’t use often. And in comparison to other classes its not great.

Yes retaliation is guardian’s primary strength but over the months its been nerfed a lot. They could give guardian traits that increase the damage of retaliation. That would be great if they did, but unlikely to happen.

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

Not only do you sacrifice offense but also mobility in the process for sustainability. In comparison to say a Warrior who traits into adrenaline heal/signet, you’re looking at around 400/hp a tick with another 410 every 3rd tick without sacrificing any mobility whatsoever. I think if you’re stuck in a specific spot due to some of your professions mechanics, it should be inherently stronger than those with mobility

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I think the biggest problem with retaliation is that it only hinders fast attacking low damaging abilities, which not all classes/builds use.

So the slow/hard hitting abilities out pace retaliation, which kills us faster than we can kill them.

To answer that we need something that we can apply directly back, which would seem to scream burning damage as our response, but it has been shown time and time again it isn’t enough to warrant a threat when coming from guardians.

Maybe we should do more research into condi bunkers? Or find a hybrid with condi/retal bunkers. It has been done before in the past, but always lacked survival, but maybe we are smarter now with game mechanics.

(edited by CMF.5461)

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

I think the biggest problem with retaliation is that it only hinders fast attacking low damaging abilities, which not all classes/builds use.

So the slow/hard hitting abilities out pace retaliation, which kills us faster than we can kill them.

To answer that we need something that we can apply directly back, which would seem to scream burning damage as our response, but it has been shown time and time again it isn’t enough to warrant a threat when coming from guardians.

Maybe we should do more research into condi bunkers? Or find a hybrid with condi/retal bunkers. It has been done before in the past, but always lacked survival, but maybe we are smarter now with game mechanics.

I’ve actually given this a go with very little results. Guardians have limited applications for burning outside of torch. Even with Judges Intervention/VoJ, you’re looking at a very short duration burn. Without traits to boost the application for this condition(burn on crit), I believe it will only supplement our damage instead of being something we can turn to as an alternative.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

To respond back to the warrior bunker and self heal responses, I have a hard time with some of those numbers, and I would need to see them for myself.

Guardian’s also have a fairly high self heal rate with Virtue of Resolve and Regeneration ticking, add in symbol heals as well (although not mobile, but frequent enough to place again).

To just crunch some numbers, full heal traited/geared in pvp with full stack of sigil of life, signet of mercy, and traited for mace healing power as well as improved VoR should provide around 2093 healing power:

Regeneration: 392 hps
Virtue of Resolve: 262hps
Writ of the Merciful: 264hps

Total of 918hps for the guardian (could be traited to share VoR to allies if you want).

Also factor in dodge heals that are half of healing power in pvp and 100% of healing power in pve. So that is potentially an 1175 in pvp and 2359 in pve heal on demand.

What were the numbers broken down to the second and skill for warriors? Remember, to divide regeneration down to a second and not the total done, that is misleading.

(edited by CMF.5461)

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

I think the biggest problem with retaliation is that it only hinders fast attacking low damaging abilities, which not all classes/builds use.

So the slow/hard hitting abilities out pace retaliation, which kills us faster than we can kill them.

To answer that we need something that we can apply directly back, which would seem to scream burning damage as our response, but it has been shown time and time again it isn’t enough to warrant a threat when coming from guardians.

Maybe we should do more research into condi bunkers? Or find a hybrid with condi/retal bunkers. It has been done before in the past, but always lacked survival, but maybe we are smarter now with game mechanics.

This is true, they could change the formula to be like gw1. Which was 33% of the damage done to you is reflected back.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Retribution

But it might make things reverse as they are now. Big attacks become better and smaller attacks being reflected feels weak.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Yeah, I don’t think doing a flat 33% back would be good for balance, as much as I liked the idea originally when I started playing on release and felt retal was weak.

To mix things up, while we are talking about bunkering and defensive guardians, I do not want to neglect the offensive guardian as well.

So lets keep up these discussions, but this is not only about defensive guardians, but strengths as a whole.

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

Yeah, I don’t think doing a flat 33% back would be good for balance, as much as I liked the idea originally when I started playing on release and felt retal was weak.

To mix things up, while we are talking about bunkering and defensive guardians, I do not want to neglect the offensive guardian as well.

So lets keep up these discussions, but this is not only about defensive guardians, but strengths as a whole.

I agree.

I think they should focus on making guardian’s defense into its offense. As I wrote in a previous post, giving guardian’s a skill elite similar to mark of protection would allow them to push into offense while remaining defense to make up for lack of damage, hp and mobility.

Some other thoughts I had were to bake in healing into weapon skills. Maybe Zealot’s defense steals a percentage of the targets hp. Or blocking steals targets hp. These are just IDEAS, not suggestions.

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

I made a small video showcasing a Berserker warrior with its potential healing due to traits/healing skill. Notice I sacrifice zero mobility to attain it.

http://www.twitch.tv/elricalphonse/b/443785381

This isn’t to bash the balancing of the game but rather to show that there isn’t anything sacrificed to gain such regeneration. At times I was getting nearly nearly 1k health every 3 seconds.

I also did a test for the Guardians regenerative abilities with symbol of faith, VoR, symbol heals and AH. It came out to be 550hp/tick.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I see the defense is our offensive in a lot of our abilities, but it doesn’t play out in most areas of the game.

Retaliation is supposed to have us outlive attackers, burning on blocks is supposed to let us punish big hits with return damage, condition conversions is supposed to provide us with more boons to make us stronger the more you attack us.

Problem is those things are not enough to be offensive and we mostly just scrape by with defense.

Do they need buffs, or are we using the wrong?

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Arken.3725

The problem with retaliation and burn on block is both the small damage(retaliation) and short duration burns from blocking. The mechanic behind condition conversion is a little lopsided since the condi’s you convert don’t last nearly as long as the boons converted into conditions.

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

I see the defense is our offensive in a lot of our abilities, but it doesn’t play out in most areas of the game.

Retaliation is supposed to have us outlive attackers, burning on blocks is supposed to let us punish big hits with return damage, condition conversions is supposed to provide us with more boons to make us stronger the more you attack us.

Problem is those things are not enough to be offensive and we mostly just scrape by with defense.

Do they need buffs, or are we using the wrong?

They can’t buff them simply because the boons are universal. What they can do is make passive skills that can do the same thing as a boon. Like maybe the grandmaster passive trail of zeal could be a passive retaliation. That stacks with normal retaliation, get what I’m saying?

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I made a small video showcasing a Berserker warrior with its potential healing due to traits/healing skill. Notice I sacrifice zero mobility to attain it.

http://www.twitch.tv/elricalphonse/b/443785381

This isn’t to bash the balancing of the game but rather to show that there isn’t anything sacrificed to gain such regeneration. At times I was getting nearly nearly 1k health every 3 seconds.

I also did a test for the Guardians regenerative abilities with symbol of faith, VoR, symbol heals and AH. It came out to be 550hp/tick.

Awesome, thanks for the video, lets me see whats going on. Also lol, I forgot I’m logged in so I’m afk on the forums (saw the whispers to me in video).

So you heal for 410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives life for 405 passively with max adrenalin
Regeneration pops every 10 seconds when crippled/chilled/immobilized which does 175 a tick.

That is about 990 a second if all of them are active, but regen is not persistent….although you could go for banners like you mentioned before and get even more healing per second.

The kicker here is that you have a reliable form of weakness to help reduce damage done and keep healing more effective. I think that is one of the big things guardians are missing.

Although we do have a frequent application of protection, so maybe that is just as good?

Also, how does the adrenalin heal work, it seemed to not tick sometimes and other times tick frequently. Is it supposed to be every second?

As far as the guardian build, try this and see if it performs to your liking:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNApeWlUgyCXFyJEm4ESmiVCBxegRfUHdpwheIA-TsAgzCmIASBkDIDQSgs3MaY9x8DA

The down side is that you lose all offensive pressure. As you mentioned before, the warrior can still be offensive while doing those things, and you speced 100% full into heals and took into account a full stack of sigil of life and the warrior still out healed the guard

(edited by CMF.5461)