Guild Wars 2

There’s little advantage over a Greatsword currently:

Autoattack: Deals the same or less damage, hits more often for Virtue of Justice procs but doesn’t give Might, so I’d say it’s even.
#2: Gap Closer that does less damage on almost the same CD of Leap of Faith (traited)
#3: Burst damage that does less damage than Whirling Wrath, and it’s not AoE. Block projectiles, but it’s unreliable imo.

Greatswords can also drop a Symbol which means more Virtue of Justice procs among boons and heals if traited.
Greatswords can be enhanced with various traits (for symbols, healing, grants boons, controls, reduced cooldowns) while Swords doesn’t even compete with a single 5% extra damage and 15% extra crit only.

Point by point Swords are worse than Greatswords by a mile.
Please buff Swords, thank you!

…by a Sword & Shield Guardian.

I would love the Sword and probably use it almost exclusively, if it weren’t for such low AoE damage and how the playstyle is essentially “spam 1”.

All they need is to rework Zealot’s Defense and add more damage to Flashing Blade.

I would love to see Zealot’s Defense become a skill that throws out projectiles horizontally and carries the projectile barrier in front of you, as you move. As it is now, it’s a medium-high damage, easy to avoid attack that requires CC to set up and is on a long cooldown. It’s essentially 100b with twice the cooldown, less than half the damage, and is single target.

It’s actually better to spam ‘1’ in most cases than it is to use Zealot’s Defense, because if you don’t connect with every projectile you would have done more damage with the auto-attack. Using this skill also puts you out of melee range.

You can’t hold an off-hand with a Greatsword.

You cant compare the 4/5 skills for sword/gs just because You can vary those depending on your build. Sword auto attack is actually very strong because of the speed and number off attacks. 3hits in 2.5 seconds for GS vs kittens in 2.5 for sword. This allows sword to crit more which helps certain traits and food. They both have gap closers on #2 that add aoe blind, gs does more damage and is a leap finisher, but sword ignores movement restriction through being a shadow step. The only thing i would change there is a bit more damage on flashing blade.

1. are both burst skills that do about the same damage. WW has AoE and a bit of movement while ZD roots you and is single target, however ZD also absorbs projectiles and has a longer, though semi unreliable range. Overall though both weapons are on pretty good terms, sword is more single target while GS is more group, but the off hand choice I think makes sword far more versitile than gs

Bakitten291:

snip

I don’t see how you can say ZD is even comparable to Whirling Wrath.

WW:
AoE
Lets you move at a reduced speed
8-10s cooldown
*More than 1251 damage (actual damage is higher than listed, as the listed number is 9 hits, not 14 like it actually does).

ZD:
Single target
Immobilizes you
15s cooldown
888 damage

Zealot’s Defense: 888 damage over 3s.
Sword Auto: 269+269+504 damage over 1.5s.
Whirling Wrath: 1251 over .75s.

Zealot’s Defense: 296 DPS
Sword Auto: 505 DPS
Whirling Wrath: 1668 DPS

I’m not considering offhand skills, just by comparing each skills to their relative (autoattack, burst and gap closer) the Greatsword is superior in all of them.
It is also superior with trait synergy.

The only thing the sword has for it is the extra hits due it’s fast attack, but even this is neglected if you consider the Greatsword’s Symbol which also counts as hits for proccing Virtue of Justice.

Example case:
I’m currently facing 4~5 risen per pull and I almost die if I take them on with a Sword & Something. With a Greatsword they die in 3~4 seconds.
If I face a single mob, I take the same time or longer than using a Greatsword.
And if I’m facing an enemy that relies heavily on projectiles, the Sword’s Zealot Defense isn’t reliable alone, so the same mechanic I’ll apply to this fight can be used with a Greatsword with superior results.

So, please, buff Swords.

I’ve made various threads and posts about this and I agree with Danicco.
A quick summary of my ideas for it are thus:

- Make Sword Wave hit in the normal melee arc. It’s currently quite narrow.
- Make Flashing Blade do more damage.
- Make Flashing Blade a leap finisher.
- Make Zealot’s Defense hit foes in a line.

All of a sudden, sword isn’t so bad!

Two things though:
- I wouldn’t be opposed to remaking Sword Wave altogether and making it a single hit, normal melee arc skill that reliably gave a condition though (like cripple! :O ).
- It says that Zealot’s Defense blocks projectiles on the tooltip but it actually absorbs them, either make it clear that they’re absorbs or make them actual blocks to give us more trait synergy, something the sword lacks a good deal of. Ironically, we would then have three weapons that block that aren’t shields….

Swords do need something.

My thoughts…

Flashing blade damage increased close to Leap of Faith
Add a 2 sec root to Zealots Defense

That would be enough for me

Personally I love the sword, and the fix to the Sword Wave to hit low targets makes it even better.

1. It’s a bit quicker and perfect synergy with Virtue of Justice. The 5 hit also has more synergy with Empowered Might if Mights is what you are concerned about
2. Gap closer is instant and unpredictable (unless your reflexes are in the fractions of a second). In PvP that is a hundred times more important than slightly more damage. Add in the cooldown being 10 instead of 15 seconds, and I actually prefer the swords 2 over the GS.
3. It’s true that this really isn’t a killer damage move, but still useful. An anti projectile move that lets you still damage the attacker? Thank you.

Now if you’re going to talk about cleave, then yes the GS is 100 times better than sword… but that’s not the purpose of the sword. But then, if you’re farming multiple mobs in Orr, why are you using sword instead of hammer?

[edit] Fixed my horrible grammar in the first sentence. :p

Sword is actually really good so I don’t really get the suggestions or complaints here. Depending on what you are doing, even better than GS in some cases. I certainly think that with the right build, nothing beats the damage output of Sword. Just the fact you can offhand another sigil makes it super powerful. If you know what you are doing, that capability more than outweighs any lack of apparent damage or tricks it can do vs. any 2H weapon.

Also worth considering is that you can swap from a strong offensive offhand (torch) to a strong defensive offhand (focus) without any compromise to how your gear impacts your offensive capability in your main hand or the capabilities of your offhand. Conversely, swapping 2 handed weapons to swing between more offense and defense will always prompt me to swap a few items and some traits to maintain my optimal gameplay (If I able of course).

Hi folks,

Here are my two cents.

GS and Sword/Focus complement each other perfectly in a build with blind giving vulnerability. Focus 4 hits even twice so I usually apply 9 – 12 stacks of vulnerability quite quickly with sword 2 and focus 4. If I jump in the middle of a mob with S/F, my HP goes down zero or minimally, especially if they are missile throwers. Swith to GS 4 and 3 (for added retaliation) and you will kill the rest of the mob rapidly.

The way I see sword and focus, it’s a nice blend of attack and defense while GS is more offensive. And if you are a switcher like me, you will love using S/F while GS skills are recharging.

The only thing I would change (I agree with Silver on that one) is making Sword 3 real blocks (like the description says)… I had much hope to get loads of might from that one, alas…

To Drawing Guy: Indeed, the unpredictable nature of the teleport is quite nice. Gives a thief feeling to the guardian.

Cheers!

Sword/Focus and Scepter/Shield are still my favorite setup in sPvP. IMO, the sword damage is fine as it is. The reason I changed to GS and Hammer/Staff recently is because I love spinning the GS in WvW mobs and having Two-handed Mastery trait is much more efficient than CD reduction traits for wielding two weapons.

If you feel your damage is not enough, maybe change your shield to focus. Sword is a balanced offense and defense main-hand while focus for off-hand. If you wanna compare GS’ Symbol, compare it with your off-hand skill. I personally think an AoE blind and extra exploding blocks are much more interesting than Symbol and Pull.

Danicco.3568:

I’m not considering offhand skills, just by comparing each skills to their relative (autoattack, burst and gap closer) the Greatsword is superior in all of them.
It is also superior with trait synergy.

The only thing the sword has for it is the extra hits due it’s fast attack, but even this is neglected if you consider the Greatsword’s Symbol which also counts as hits for proccing Virtue of Justice.

Example case:
I’m currently facing 4~5 risen per pull and I almost die if I take them on with a Sword & Something. With a Greatsword they die in 3~4 seconds.
If I face a single mob, I take the same time or longer than using a Greatsword.
And if I’m facing an enemy that relies heavily on projectiles, the Sword’s Zealot Defense isn’t reliable alone, so the same mechanic I’ll apply to this fight can be used with a Greatsword with superior results.

So, please, buff Swords.

Ok are we just talking PvE here or pvp? because Pvp those symbol hits are never going to happen, Also regardless you are once again counting symbol hits as “making up” for the attack speed. If we want to go that route Ill take torch #5 which can hit up to 5 enemies 10 times each for better VoJ activation, while also cleansing debuffs on allies.

As I said before, In a group fight GS will shine, since that is kind of its point. In a one on one fight a sword + offhand will do better just because of the versatility of having the offhand. In PvE I run sword+focus /GS just because of the amount of killing power I get from both weapons.

As far as trait synergy goes, it once again depends on your build and offhand. I run a 20/20/30/0/0 build and the Sword works amazingly with it. With focus offhand I get extra blinds that give more vulnerability, and a 3block blast finisher that each block adds a stack of 15s long might, or it blows up for 5k+ damage. If I run torch I get the AoE damage from #5, and the burst damage from #4 that also increases my damage due to the 10% added damage from burning trait.

I really don’t get why people only look at the sword and say its weak, Everyone really needs to start looking at the full package that comes with off hands and the huge amount of synergy that comes with that. Not only with traits but between the weapons themselves

First, comparing a two-handed weapon to a one-handed is not the best comparison. A one-handed weapon’s versitility is always going to necessitate it being a little worse that a two-handed weapon in a one v. one match up.

Second, the developers should really be looking into our other weapons long before they get to the sword, which is perfectly viable. Unlike, say, the scepter, which should be the subject of a serious overhaul.

Perhaps we need a better offhand? Maybe another sword?

Bakitten291:

Danicco.3568:

I’m not considering offhand skills, just by comparing each skills to their relative (autoattack, burst and gap closer) the Greatsword is superior in all of them.
It is also superior with trait synergy.

The only thing the sword has for it is the extra hits due it’s fast attack, but even this is neglected if you consider the Greatsword’s Symbol which also counts as hits for proccing Virtue of Justice.

Example case:
I’m currently facing 4~5 risen per pull and I almost die if I take them on with a Sword & Something. With a Greatsword they die in 3~4 seconds.
If I face a single mob, I take the same time or longer than using a Greatsword.
And if I’m facing an enemy that relies heavily on projectiles, the Sword’s Zealot Defense isn’t reliable alone, so the same mechanic I’ll apply to this fight can be used with a Greatsword with superior results.

So, please, buff Swords.

Ok are we just talking PvE here or pvp? because Pvp those symbol hits are never going to happen, Also regardless you are once again counting symbol hits as “making up” for the attack speed. If we want to go that route Ill take torch #5 which can hit up to 5 enemies 10 times each for better VoJ activation, while also cleansing debuffs on allies.

As I said before, In a group fight GS will shine, since that is kind of its point. In a one on one fight a sword + offhand will do better just because of the versatility of having the offhand. In PvE I run sword+focus /GS just because of the amount of killing power I get from both weapons.

As far as trait synergy goes, it once again depends on your build and offhand. I run a 20/20/30/0/0 build and the Sword works amazingly with it. With focus offhand I get extra blinds that give more vulnerability, and a 3block blast finisher that each block adds a stack of 15s long might, or it blows up for 5k+ damage. If I run torch I get the AoE damage from #5, and the burst damage from #4 that also increases my damage due to the 10% added damage from burning trait.

I really don’t get why people only look at the sword and say its weak, Everyone really needs to start looking at the full package that comes with off hands and the huge amount of synergy that comes with that. Not only with traits but between the weapons themselves

Would you say the 20% Reduced CD on focus is better then +10% damage to foes with a condition + 15% crit chance with a 1h?

Its is a bit less bursty but the 100 extra power is nice. I already run 50% crit on my sword as it is so adding more is not a full on requirement for me. However i do plan on going back to 10/30/30/0/0 to compare damage again to see which feels better.

I’m talking PvE only, PvP is highly subjective.

I see it like this:
Against 1 mob: Greatsword wins/tie with Sword & Anything else.
Against 2 mobs: Greatsword wins easily. (kills faster)
Against 10 mobs: Greatsword wins easily.

Trait-wise:
Greatswords can be enhanced with better Symbols, healing, damage, reduced cooldowns that share with other 2 handed weapons and both our underwater weapons.
Swords can only be enhanced with Right Handed Strength and Sword Mastery, which works with other 1 handers and adds Spear damage.

I’d say Greatswords are slightly ahead trait-wise.

Utility-wise:
Both have gap closers and burst damage, the Greatsword control and AoE for it’s extra 2 skills should be equivalent to the Sword + Offhand combo, but it stills wins flat out for damage.

In short, Greatswords have better damage, control, same utility, more trait-synergy with other weapons (Hammer & Staff, both uses Symbols, share the reduced CD and passively grant boons) where the Sword & Offhand only have an extra Sigil to compensate.

It’s an easy conclusion to favour GS over sword if your so willing to dismiss the offhand effectiveness. Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE and that extra sigil is also more value that you realize as well. I really question if the GS damage is better too: if it is, it’s not by much and certainly nothing noticeable for PVE stuff.

It seems like an empty argument to me. At best you show it’s slightly ahead and that’s questionable IMO. Even if that’s true, it’s not really cause for improving sword.

Obtena.7952:

Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.

I literally laughed.

Whirling Wrath:
1251+ damage (actual damage is significantly higher http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath)
1668 DPS
8-10s cooldown
360 degrees
14 total hits

Cleansing Flame:
1000 damage
235 DPS
12.75-15s cooldown
Frontal cone
10 total hits

Whirling Wrath is significantly better.

Obtena.7952:

I really question if the GS damage is better too: if it is, it’s not by much and certainly nothing noticeable for PVE stuff.

Sword Auto: (269+269+504)/1.5=694DPS
GS Auto: (269+269+443)/1.5=654DPS

Whirling Wrath: 1668 DPS
Zealot’s Defense: 888/3= 296 DPS

Leap of Faith: 406/.5= 812 DPS
Symbol of Wrath: 925/.25 = 3700 DPS (this is formated for the following map, the DPS here is relative to the cast time)

Sword DPS over 1m: 694 (mathematically, it’s actually worse DPS wise to use anything but ‘1’ spam)

GS DPS over 1m: Assuming 6 WW casts, 3 SoW casts, 4 LoF casts, and the rest auto-spam, the math is:

Time: (6*.75)(3*.25)(4*.75) = 8.25s, so 52s for auto spam.

Damage: [(1668*4.5)(3700*.75)(3*812)+(654*52)]/60=

(2775+7506+2436+34008)/60=779 DPS

But also, the above DPS can easily hit 3 enemies, and most of it 5 enemies. It’s also using the lower DPS of WW rather than the real.

Alarox.4590:

Obtena.7952:

Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.

I literally laughed.

---

Whirling Wrath:
1251+ damage (actual damage is significantly higher http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath)
1668 DPS
8-10s cooldown
360 degrees
14 total hits

Cleansing Flame:
1000 damage
235 DPS
12.75-15s cooldown
Frontal cone
10 total hits

Whirling Wrath is significantly better.

A) you are never getting 14 hits unless your lucky.
B) torch 4 can crit for just as much damage as a full WW at 1200 range.
C) think the guy meant torch 5, but you also get the added effect of cleansing allies, and more hits = more procs of on crit attacks.

Forget swords. I rather have them focus on GS and Hammer and stabilize them. GS + Hammer is the best combo for cc + dps.

Bakitten291:

A) you are never getting 14 hits unless your lucky.
B) torch 4 can crit for just as much damage as a full WW at 1200 range.
C) think the guy meant torch 5, but you also get the added effect of cleansing allies, and more hits = more procs of on crit attacks.

A) The damage listed is actually only for 9 hits, so to reach that level of damage you don’t even need to hit with all. It’s easy to get most of the hits.

B) No it can’t, unless you have a low critical chance and thus deal little damage with WW, and then get a lucky crit with torch 4.

C) Torch 5 is nothing compared to WW for damage, as I’ve already shown, and taking into account on-crit effects WW benefits more. WW lasts basically 1s, torch 5 lasts 3s. However, they both hit about the same amount of times. Meaning, you can pop WW then hop back to auto attack or other skills, while Torch 5 keeps you locked for 3s, meaning you’ll still get more hits with the GS.

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

A) you are never getting 14 hits unless your lucky.
B) torch 4 can crit for just as much damage as a full WW at 1200 range.
C) think the guy meant torch 5, but you also get the added effect of cleansing allies, and more hits = more procs of on crit attacks.

A) The damage listed is actually only for 9 hits, so to reach that level of damage you don’t even need to hit with all. It’s easy to get most of the hits.

B) No it can’t, unless you have a low critical chance and thus deal little damage with WW, and then get a lucky crit with torch 4.

C) Torch 5 is nothing compared to WW for damage, as I’ve already shown, and taking into account on-crit effects WW benefits more. WW lasts basically 1s, torch 5 lasts 3s. However, they both hit about the same amount of times. Meaning, you can pop WW then hop back to auto attack or other skills, while Torch 5 keeps you locked for 3s, meaning you’ll still get more hits with the GS.

Torch #4 crits for 5-6k for me, WW gets about the same, and I run a High crit build. Also It applies burning, which increases all of my damage by 10% Also, once again Torch 5 also clears conditions on people while doing damage. Also torch 5 has a longer range, and does not limit your movement at all, where as one dodge roll can negate all of WW damage. There are advantages to both Skills, but shunning torch 5 when it is a comparable AoE doesn’t make any sense.

Archer.1658:

Forget swords. I rather have them focus on GS and Hammer and stabilize them. GS + Hammer is the best combo for cc + dps.

Because it is great to force a class to require only 2 weapons out of the 9 they can possibly use. Yay build diversity right?

Bakitten291:

snip

I actually love the Torch, but I also think skill 5 is really unbalanced because of the low damage output (less than the auto-attack). Can you honestly tell me you would rather have Torch 5 over Whirling Wrath if you could pick one or the other (excluding all other variables)?

I just want the Guardian to have real balance, even internally.

EDIT: I’m off-topic. Let’s redirect the conversation back to the sword.

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

snip

I actually love the Torch, but I also think skill 5 is really unbalanced because of the low damage output (less than the auto-attack). Can you honestly tell me you would rather have Torch 5 over Whirling Wrath if you could pick one or the other (excluding all other variables)?

I just want the Guardian to have real balance, even internally.

EDIT: I’m off-topic. Let’s redirect the conversation back to the sword.

I use GS/ Sword+torch So I don’t have to >.> Would I prefer WW? Yes, but the #5 skill does have its place as well, and helps make up for the AoElessness (yay making up words) of the Sword.

I think the single target nature of the sword is its biggest weakness. Like I mentioned earlier, making Sword Wave hit foes in the normal melee arc (it’s currently a projectile skill that can be reflected!) and making Zealot’s Defense hit foes in a line would largely address this if you ask me.
I’m not against single target weapons but I think the scepter would be a better candidate. Obviously, scepter would need some decent tweaking to get it to that point.

I know people are using sword to great effect and all that but I think the only builds where sword is really viable are those with decent critical chance and on crit effects. The only real trait synergy it has is with Blind Exposure, which is also generally only picked up by damage/crit based buids anyway. You could argue for Supreme Justice and Permeating Justice but I think going 20-30 points into virtues is sacrificing far more damage and/or utility than it gains you.

Say, for instance, if Zealot’s Defense’s projectile absorbs suddenly became blocks instead, all of a sudden we’ve opened up some good trait synergy for the Valour line! You know, that line that everyone originally thought was weak but is now the line we can’t live without?

Alarox.4590:

Obtena.7952:

Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.

I literally laughed.

That’s all nice on paper. There are lots of advantages to using torch and if built right, a sword/torch build is comparable in damage to GS, no problem and can exceed it in certain situations, many of them being the PVE ones that the OP is wanting to limit the discussion to. That’s part of the problem with the OP’s argument. The weapons aren’t comparable in isolation because when someone wields a weapon, it has a build supporting it.

The only conceivable change I would like to see for sword is that it gets some sort of secondary effect support. Examples would be getting an offensive symbol or a boon of some kind.

I’ve been using a sword/torch build for a few weeks on and off. I’m very certain that the setup does more damage than a GS one. But not by much.

I feel that the comparisons to gs vs sword are a bit unfair, since it usually compares all five gs skills to the three skills sword has. A better comparison would be to use focus or a torch with the 1h sword.

The right handed strength trait makes sword/torch do a lot of dps.

I think the better advantage of the sword is it can be paired with the defensive weapons: the shield and the focus. Whereas the sword can have offensive and defensive capabilities, the Greatsword has absolutely none.

It really is comparing apples to oranges. The OP should have been comparing the sword to the mace and the scepter, where the scepter comes out the clear loser.

Been playin guard since beta the 1 handed sword is weak … I want to like it but I can’t. The lack of damage on the #2 skill makes it unpressable unless your in pursuit, and the #3 skill is weak because you have to stop and cast it. Stoping in this games is a invitation to die and why would I want to stop to cast when with a sword I need to be close to my target to hit it? # 2 skill needs more damage attached to it or a cripple on next hit and the # 3 skill needs to be able to be cast on the move because in its current state u have to cast #2 if you cast # 3 just to catch up to your target again , unless its a mindless Npc.

I want to love 1H sword as well, but it’s not worth it compared to GS attacks 1, 2, 3.

If sword 3 was an AoE (like mesmer sword 2) then I’d consider it. Right now there’s no AoE except for the auto attack (which you get on any melee auto attack). Don’t try and sell sword 2 “reflect” as an AoE — that’s not going to fly with anyone that’s used real AoE skills and has tried sword 2.

Im very dissapointed that they still havent done anything, Im about to quit the game cuz of this, I refuse to use GS and I play mostly Guardian :/
its like the dev team dont know any other weapon exists beside the GS

Hammerhorn.1347:

The lack of damage on the #2 skill makes it unpressable unless your in pursuit, and the #3 skill is weak because you have to stop and cast it.

Sword 2 isn’t about the damage (though the damage is admittedly shockingly horrible). It’s a blind and gap closer with a short recharge. It’s meant to be spammed. If the damage were increased, the recharge time would have to be, as well.

In addition to being a projectile (blessed few for Guardians), Sword 3 also blocks incoming projectiles.

People here complain as if damage is the only thing these skills do. The damage on the Sword is scaled back because the Sword does other things, too. More defensive things. Like most of the Guardian skills, the Sword suffers because it does multiple things at once. Maybe a little tweaking might be called for on the Sword, but it’s certainly not the Guardian’s worst weapon. If the devs are going to be looking at a Guardian weapons rebalance, they certainly need to be looking to non-sword weapons first.

I hope Anet read this thread…

According to my test result, you are wrong about the true damage of WW.
The 1251 damage from WW is with 14 hits (even if all 14 hits lands, it’s damage still about 15% lower than 1251).
If WW only land 9 hits, its damage is LOWER than ZD.
Go to mist and test it if you haven’t yet.

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

snip

I don’t see how you can say ZD is even comparable to Whirling Wrath.

WW:
AoE
Lets you move at a reduced speed
8-10s cooldown
*More than 1251 damage (actual damage is higher than listed, as the listed number is 9 hits, not 14 like it actually does).

ZD:
Single target
Immobilizes you
15s cooldown
888 damage

---

Zealot’s Defense: 888 damage over 3s.
Sword Auto: 269+269+504 damage over 1.5s.
Whirling Wrath: 1251 over .75s.

Zealot’s Defense: 296 DPS
Sword Auto: 505 DPS
Whirling Wrath: 1668 DPS

Meow.5794:

I’m very disappointed that they still haven’t done anything, I"m about to quit the game because of this, I refuse to use Greatsword and I play mostly Guardian :/

You’re going to quit the Guardian because the Sword isn’t exactly how you want the Sword to be?
And there are certainly builds out there that do not use the Greatsword. I hardly ever use it, and I do just fine. And the Greatsword even got weakened into a rather boring weapon (especially when compared to what it was).

Only sword change I see regularly requested that I would agree with completely is make the blocks from button 3 actually be blocks – visible in the UI and triggering block-based effects.

Alarox.4590:

Obtena.7952:

Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.

I literally laughed.

---

Whirling Wrath:
1251+ damage (actual damage is significantly higher http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath)
1668 DPS
8-10s cooldown
360 degrees
14 total hits

Cleansing Flame:
1000 damage
235 DPS
12.75-15s cooldown
Frontal cone
10 total hits

Whirling Wrath is significantly better.

You should pay more attention when reading The poster you quoted was talking about Torch #4, which applies 8-9 seconds of burning to enemies around you. Depending on the situation, this will deal more damage than Whirling Wrath. Not to mention that #4 activation ability deal tons of damage.

Torch #4 will only hit three targets whereas Whirling Wrath hits up to five. Cleansing Flame is a little more comparable at least but I find the activation time a little prohibitive.

Sure, but we know WW also misses. Is 3 sure burning targets better than 5 maybe hit ones? Depends how often you are fighting 5 mobs vs. 3. In my experience, not often. Are the other advantages of one weapon make it better than the other? No, it’s completely dependent on your build and what you are doing. The whole thread is nonsense.

I don’t think the point is to argue about AoE attacks. The point was simply that the OP disregarded a significant factors in his assessment on how bad swords are for Guardian.

I would still argue that out of all the weapons available to Guardians, sword and scepter (probably torch too) have the least amount of trait synergy and viability across builds. I think this is partly to do with how they were designed and partly due to Guardian’s reliance on symbols in some builds.

That’s a more reasonable statement and I think that’s just more indicative of 1H weapons being most beneficial when you have Rad 30. That’s a trait design issue, not a weapon one. Even if sword had more ‘things’, there would still be low trait synergy.

Well I think things could still be improved on those weapons. Heck, I don’t even know why Flashing Blade isn’t a leap finisher, I would take the piddly damage on it for a Leap Finisher!
Zealot’s Defense has plenty of room to be made more reliable, I mean it’s a technically a ranged skill that will pretty much miss if you use it at range…

- I wouldn’t be opposed to remaking Sword Wave altogether and making it a single hit, normal melee arc skill that reliably gave a condition though (like cripple! :O ).

I support this. As we are forced into melee (we all know that our ranged options suck) we should have ways to make sure to stay in melee range. Yet we are the only profession without cripple.

(Underwater downstate and Tome of Wrath don’t count)

You may like the thread I made a little while ago Lavra. It’s about the very issue you’re talking about
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Comparison-of-soldier-s-melee-effectiveness/first

Iavra.8510:

- I wouldn’t be opposed to remaking Sword Wave altogether and making it a single hit, normal melee arc skill that reliably gave a condition though (like cripple! :O ).

I support this. As we are forced into melee (we all know that our ranged options suck) we should have ways to make sure to stay in melee range. Yet we are the only profession without cripple.

(Underwater downstate and Tome of Wrath don’t count)

So the unique thing about Sword is that it gives 5 separate attacks with its auto chain. I would be very disappointed if this was removed. S/X RHS effect on crit builds are viable and removing this would seriously hurt the viability of these builds, forcing AH/MF even more. Sword Wave is one of the few saving graces of this weapon.

Go test on the mists golems, Sword/Torch is higher single target damage output than GSword. On average, with Berserker’s and optimal traits for each weapon S/T takes 19 seconds to kill a pack of Heavy/Med/Light golems. GSword takes 22 seconds. On a side note traiting and using Spirit Weapons reduces all times by 2 seconds which is a shame they recently changed it. I get 4K+ ZD’s but WW maxes out for me at 2.9K all things equal. GSword feels like it wins in full AoE situations but the question then is AoE good for the group or is it better to focus down targets. Granted this does not take into account what either loadout does for the group. Lastly, this is coming from a strictly PvE perspective.

I would like to see Flashing Blade’s damage increased slightly and attach a Leap Finisher to it and/or ZD having a projectile finisher. ZD also needs to allow movement during and have its reflect fixed, maybe give Aegis instead?

I feel that after you have survival down DPS should be a close second on the priority list unless you’re focusing on support. Sword gives quite good DPS but it does need some improvement.

Blood~

@Deathmond: There are at least 5 people here that think the Sword works okay for every one that thinks it doesn’t. I don’t think the problem is as big as you think it is.

I love sword and torch for PvE..I dont WvW
Flashing Blade
Virtue of justice
Zealot’s Fire
Zealot’s Defence..over 6k on last hit
Zealot’s Flame between 4k and 6k when released
Its so quick i can take on at least 3 mobs at a time.