Guild Wars 2

Just some speculation for the purifier/firebrand.

Firstly I’d like to take note of the new seraph stats with the Thackeray prefix. I think it’s reasonable to speculate that Logan will become a purifier/firebrand since he mentioned changes to his body in The Head of the Snake (“Recovery has been slow. The blighting pod…changed me. Not my mind, but…my body feels different.” – https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers )
If that’s true, then if the stats that set grants are any indication, I’m assuming this spec is gonna be able to do about the same sort of stuff (conditions/healing/boons), which also fits in to the three tomes/virtues.
Another thing worth mentioning is that some fairly reliable sources believe that the spec is split between conditions/offensive support, healing, and protection. There are also some rumours going around that one of the next elite specs will be able to apply group perma-quickness, and I wouldn’t be shocked if the purifier/firebrand is the spec in question.

Skill/trait speculation:
[Can’t post leaked images here unfortunately]

Axe skills:
Axe #1 – Perhaps some sort of ranged cleaving AoE judging by the leaked picture. Its actual range is vague. I’m assuming it inflicts a condition of some sort. It seems to strike multiple times (in the leaked picture their are multiple “hit rings” appearing when it hits the golem).

Axe #2 – The icon looks like a thrown axe making a symbol. I wouldn’t be shocked if it applies resistance due to the spec’s theme. In light of the “perma-quickness” rumors, I suppose it could apply quickness instead. I feel that it’s more likely that the tome replacing justice will be where all the quickness comes from though, but there’s really no way to know.

Axe #3 – No idea. Looks like some sort of AoE skill perhaps (just based on the skill art). I wouldn’t be shocked if it applied a condition of some sort. Perhaps it cleanses too. No way to really know. The skill art kind of makes it look like the axe is rising or cleaving (hard to tell).

Overall, judging by axes typically having 900 range, I’m speculating that this axe is also 900 range. At the very least, it certainly doesn’t look melee (since summoning a spirit axe to attack in melee range with a normal axe seems kind of redundant). I don’t entirely understand how a close-ranged weapon would fit with tomes anyway (unless tomes got butchered into some kind of close-ranged abomination).

Utility Skills:
Healing mantra – I’m assuming the symbol on that icon is the symbol of the purifier/firebrand. Can’t really say much besides that.

Winged mantra – Considering the angelic motif, this mantra probably has something to do with healing or revival.

Fire mantra – Some sort of burning mantra I’m sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s like the mesmer’s mantra of pain but with burning instead.

Protection mantra – This mantra looks like it has a symbol in it similar to a symbol found in the protection prayer “mark of protection” from GW1. In fact, it even shares a noticeably similar colour scheme to Mark of Protection, so I’m assuming it’s some sort of protective support. The skill icon resolution is rather small though, so I could be wrong about that symbol.

Eye mantra – Probably has something to do with revealing stealthed targets.

Elite mantra – The icon depicts chains breaking (I think). I guess it could have something to do with stability or stunbreaking, but the guardian already has a ton of options for stability, so an amped-up Mantra of Concentration would appear to be a really meh elite skill. As such I suspect it does something else, but I really have no clue what that something else is. Just based on the rumors, I suppose it could apply quickness, or maybe some kind of unique buff.

I suppose it’s worth mentioning that these might actually be wells (just judging on the skill art), assuming the leakers are wrong/lying that is (I have my doubts). The skill art does look quite a fair bit like GW1 mantras, but at the same time the art also kind of looks like chronomancer wells.

Tomes:
Tome of Justice/Wrath/Smiting: If it’s anything like Tome of Wrath, it’ll focus on offensive support and damage (mainly burning I’m sure). As I mentioned previously, I’ll be surprised if this doesn’t apply a lot of quickness.

Tome of Resolve/Healing: I’m gonna guess (and hope) that this’ll take Heal Area from the old Tome of Courage. Light of Deliverance is pretty much Signet of Courage though, so I’m assuming that’ll be different along with most of its skills. Could get Purifying Ribbon back I suppose, and I personally hope it does. Heal Area and Purifying Ribbon were very fun to use and looked pretty to boot.

Tome of Courage/Protection: I’m assuming this’ll be like the old Tome of Courage minus Heal Area and Light of Deliverance. I’m expecting aegis or protection, maybe some barriers and reflects, maybe even a defensive buff ala Jalis’ elite from revs.

Initiative thing: This functions either like an energy bar for the tomes, or a timer for the tomes. I have no idea how it gets charged though (assuming it really is a charge gauge and not something like energy/initiative).

A leaker claimed that there’d be no healers on the level of druids this time around, but the same(???) leaker said that these tomes are cooldown-based (and made no mention of the blatant resource next to tomes) and that they’re like old tomes in terms of skills, so there seems to be a lot of contradiction there. Additionally, a reliable source of mine heavily implied that this spec is more or less split between conditions, healing, and protection.

I noticed that beneath the icon for each tome, there was a thin line of colour. Red for Justice, blue for Resolve, and white for Courage. Perhaps this correlates to how the bar is filled. For example, perhaps dealing condition damage gives red “initiative”, whereas healing allies gives blue “initiative”, and applying boons or blocking/reflecting attacks fills the gauge with white “initiative”.
Red is always associated with offense and burning, and Blue is heavily associated with healing (literally every #6 heal skill is blue, guardians are blue, water eles are blue, druids have a lot of blue, etc). The tome replacing Courage has a shield on it, so it’s fairly obvious that it’s a defensive tome.

Traits (in order of the trait wheel leak):

Axe icon: The icon indicating that axes are usable.

Minor – Tome icon: The trait indicating that tomes are usable.

Adept – Purifier/Firebrand icon: No idea. I suppose the silhouette behind it looks angelic, so maybe it could be related to healing somehow. The icon is also only shown on their healing skill, which furthers the association with healing.

Adept – Circle with arrows: Almost certainly the trait for mantras. Restorative Mantras for mesmers also uses three arrows for its icon, so that seems to be a predominant symbol for mantras.

Minor – Hat with tiny wings: The symbolism correlates to knowledge because of the hat and possibly healing because of the tiny angel wings(?). There was a “leak” recently (that could’ve been false) that mentioned a “Precise Healing” trait that let healing crit; this would match up pretty perfectly with the trait icon (the hat symbolizing critical hit chance which is associated with intelligence, and the angel wings symbolizing healing, assuming those are angels wings).

Adept – Flying diamond thing: At first I couldn’t tell what this was a picture of, but it’s definitely a picture of the diamond-shaped initiative-like resource next to tomes. So it’s most certainly a trait for generating whatever that resource is.

Minor – Angelic Shield: I wouldn’t be shocked if this enhances or has something to do with aegis.

Master – Swinging axe: Some axe-related trait surely. Probably reduces the cooldown of axe skills and likely offers some kind of condition-related benefit.

Master – Hand: No idea. I suppose hands are usually associated with utility. Perhaps it has something to do with weapon/tome swapping or quickness?

Master – Axe and silhouette: Another axe related trait possibly? I suspect otherwise since there’s already an axe trait in the spec’s master traits.

Grandmaster – Pages/initiative diamonds: Either these are pages and are related directly to tomes, or they’re the icon for the initiative-like bar next to tomes. Either way it’s likely tome-related, but I’m betting on the latter. I suppose it could add another two diamond-things onto the resource bar.

Grandmaster – Crown: Not sure. The symbolism isn’t really used anywhere else afaik. It could be an aura since crowns are obviously associated with leadership.

Grandmaster – Opening shining tome: Some sort of direct benefit to tomes I’m sure.

If it’s defensive by nature then it’s DoA in PvE. In PvP… who knows, they will probably crank the numbers into blatantly broken territory to sell the x-pac.

I’ve thrown enough salt already, so I will try to be constructive here.

I agree that Firebrand will be tied to Logan. Braham has already become Dragonhunter, and books are really not his style. Logan is a natural leader and after the Blighting Pod he doesn’t seem to be in a potition to fight, so he can take a supportive role. And of course, he’s now the leader of the Pact. Not to mention the Seraph stat combo.

Now, let’s hope the spec offers more than just quickness.

If a good alternative to chronomancers becomes available for the position of tank, then this would likely also be viable by extension due to the lose of quickness (assuming this applies quickness). It could potentially also be a good alternative to druids for the position of healer, but too much info is unknown to really say anything solid.

YuiRS.8129:

If it’s defensive by nature then it’s DoA in PvE. In PvP… who knows, they will probably crank the numbers into blatantly broken territory to sell the x-pac.

It’s looking supportive in all regards (the tomes will almost certainly offer offensive support, healing support, and defensive support respectively), and it’ll very likely deal a fair bit of condition damage as well.

Since we’re throwing out skill wish-lists, here’s one of mine.

Trait: Virtue of Justice is now Flames of Justice.

Flames of Justice

• “F1 passive proc, FoJ will now cleanse 1 condition to nearby allies who are near the Guardian every 5th hit.

• “F1 activation, allies around you have the Guardian’s F1 passive 5th hit burn proc for 7 seconds.”

Firebrand

Not that this topic is a wish-list, but okay. Also that fist icon isn’t a “virtue”, it’s a tome (according to various leakers anyway).

I like your idea of crit healing, it makes sense with Seraph’s +precision being one of the higher stats when it’s a condi/support stat combo.

Fashion Mage.3712:

I noticed that beneath the icon for each tome, there was a thin line of colour. Red for Justice, blue for Resolve, and white for Courage. Perhaps this correlates to how the bar is filled. For example, perhaps dealing condition damage gives red “initiative”, whereas healing allies gives blue “initiative”, and applying boons or blocking/reflecting attacks fills the gauge with white “initiative”.

I would be inclined to say that I hope the tome replacing Justice doesn’t require condition damage to be charged, since most core guardian weapons offer little or no condition damage outside of Justice procs. Would be better to base it off damage of any kind if it’s to have a druid-esque charging mechanic.

I don’t think our resource will work like that because it’s extremely build-restrictive. Like, imagine if you want to play condi healer, your bar will be contantly getting filled with red diamonds potentially locking you out of F2.

But it’s true those coloured bars are there, so they must mean something. In the screenshot, the initiative bar is empty, so maybe the diamonds don’t start filling up until you are holding a tome.

I have a lot of doubts about it working like that too; I was just throwing out a theory. I only noticed it now, but the fact that the guardian in the leaked picture is attacking but still has an empty gauge probably means that it isn’t something like the druid’s celestial bar.

I suppose the tomes could be activated, and instead of having a duration, the gauge gets filled up upon activating a tome, and then it acts as an energy bar.

So it could be something similar to weapon conjures, then?

draxynnic.3719:

So it could be something similar to weapon conjures, then?

Probably. I’m suspecting something like kits with initiative.

I think the bar is empty, and it starts filling over time (like initiative, since they have the same look) when you equip a tome. Maybe it works like that so you don’t use the best spell from each tome and drop it, but you have to camp it a bit before you have enough initiative to use the higher-cost spells.

Then maybe each tome uses a different initiative bar, colour-coded like Fashion Mage said, so that you have to build each individually and your progress is saved when you drop the tome, and that’s what the bars in the icons could mean: how much initiative you have stored for each tome.

the bar could be a number of uses bar? like when you pick up a tome all the pips light up and each skill you use depletes a pip and when all pips are out the tome disappears? and maybe skills 4 and 5 use more than 1 pip so you have to decide do you spam skill 1 and use 1 pip at a time or do you only use 2-3 skills for the whole bar? anything could be a potential due to the screenshots not actaully using a tome so we dont know how they work together.

How do they recharge if they work like that though? Like, if the bar is always full when you open a time, what’s there to stop you from going through all the tomes spamming skills?

maybe once all the pips are used that specific tome has a cooldown before you can reuse it? it could also be that potentially you could use maybe 3 -4 pips in 1 tome then swap to another tome that has full pips but when you swap back to the first tome it still has 3-4 pips used and wont recharge until all pips are used and tome is off cooldown?

Fashion Mage.3712:

Adept – Flying diamond thing: At first I couldn’t tell what this was a picture of, but it’s definitely a picture of the diamond-shaped initiative-like resource next to tomes. So it’s most certainly a trait for generating whatever that resource is.

Or a flying book. Not that this made more sense. Accio tome!

Fashion Mage.3712:

Master – Hand: No idea. I suppose hands are usually associated with utility. Perhaps it has something to do with weapon/tome swapping or quickness?

I’d associate it with ‘lay on hands’. So either supportive, healing, or removing something.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Master – Axe and silhouette: Another axe related trait possibly? I suspect otherwise since there’s already an axe trait in the spec’s master traits.

Axes are quite frequently associated with Ferocity in GW2. Even on Guardian (s. Retributive Armor). So maybe it’s referring to that instead of the weapon itself.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Grandmaster – Crown: Not sure. The symbolism isn’t really used anywhere else afaik. It could be an aura since crowns are obviously associated with leadership.

It reminded me of the personality system. Can’t really draw any functionality from it. But the traits name could be ‘Noble…’, ‘Honorable…’ or ‘Dignified …’ sth.

If it’s like the old tomes before they were removed from guild wars 2 it’s like weapons with no charges but a time limit like 30 seconds more or less time depending on its power level. The weapon could be hybrid or condi, regardless you can still use the trait line without using axe.

Someone pointed out to me that the axe’s auto-attack had a red line under it, so that probably means that it’s close-ranged (or the auto-attack is at least). Doesn’t really make sense to me given that mantras aren’t good in close-range, and given that tomes are long-ranged (if they haven’t been butchered).

Xaylin.1860:

I’d associate it with ‘lay on hands’. So either supportive, healing, or removing something.

That makes sense actually, especially since there doesn’t seem to be a supportive master trait (assuming those are master traits).

Xaylin.1860:

Axes are quite frequently associated with Ferocity in GW2. Even on Guardian (s. Retributive Armor). So maybe it’s referring to that instead of the weapon itself.

I didn’t even realize that was an axe until you mentioned it. That makes sense, although I’m not sure if it’s actually the case since ferocity in a condition or support build doesn’t seem too helpful. Either way, as you implied, it’s probably damage related.

I think Axe auto will hit in a cone in front of you, similar to Ele’s Lightning Whip, so not quite melee range, but still pretty short.

I don’t think Tomes being long ranged is any indicator, quite the opposite really as you will always have access to a 1200 range “weapon”, so Axe itself doesn’t have to be ranged. And we have DH with a longbow and melee traps, so..

That been said, there’s a trait that shows a throwing axe, so that’s a clue, or the trait could grant extra range.

I can’t tell if the elite is a chain that breaks or that is on fire. Maybe it’s something similar to Entangle with burning instead of bleed?

I couldn’t really make it out either. The chain circle is definitely being broken, but I’m not sure what the stuff in the center is.

RabbitUp.8294:

I think Axe auto will hit in a cone in front of you, similar to Ele’s Lightning Whip, so not quite melee range, but still pretty short.

I don’t think Tomes being long ranged is any indicator, quite the opposite really as you will always have access to a 1200 range “weapon”, so Axe itself doesn’t have to be ranged. And we have DH with a longbow and melee traps, so..

That been said, there’s a trait that shows a throwing axe, so that’s a clue, or the trait could grant extra range.

I suppose that’s true, although using a long-range weapon with traps will probably function better than charging mantras in close-range.

I was thinking it could enhance the range of the axe, but it did feel a tiny bit like wishful thinking on my part.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Xaylin.1860:

Axes are quite frequently associated with Ferocity in GW2. Even on Guardian (s. Retributive Armor). So maybe it’s referring to that instead of the weapon itself.

I didn’t even realize that was an axe until you mentioned it. That makes sense, although I’m not sure if it’s actually the case since ferocity in a condition or support build doesn’t seem too helpful. Either way, as you implied, it’s probably damage related.

Yeah, Ferocity doesn’t make too much sense when assuming a class suitable for the seraph combo. But sure… could just be something damage or Precision (which would fit seraph) related. The other icon which comes close to it is for Pure of Heart but I’d say it’s just by coincidence.

Do you suppose the purifier/firebrand will use axe/torch and staff combo?

Also I would love for the staff 1 skill to apply burning

Every skill applies burning if VoJ is off cooldown.
ThinkingMan.jpg

Even if F2 is healing, I wonder if Firebrand can play as a healer. We sure don’t have anything close to Druid’s staff or Ele’s Staff in Water attun.

I wish they buffed our staff. It doesn’t need a huge amount of changes, just up the healing numbers, add some healing to #1, put a blast finisher on #2 (and maybe #4), increase the might duration on #4, reduce #5’s cd by 10 seconds like it is on pvp, maybe add projectile destruction on #5, but that’s pushing it.

RabbitUp.8294:

Even if F2 is healing, I wonder if Firebrand can play as a healer. We sure don’t have anything close to Druid’s staff or Ele’s Staff in Water attun.

I wish they buffed our staff. It doesn’t need a huge amount of changes, just up the healing numbers, add some healing to #1, put a blast finisher on #2 (and maybe #4), increase the might duration on #4, reduce #5’s cd by 10 seconds like it is on pvp, maybe add projectile destruction on #5, but that’s pushing it.

probably purgind conditisn for allies and heal them per condi removal, jus tlike we do with aegis traited to healing, firebad might be able to do small heals on purging condis..

See the spec as a smitthing monk + ritualist

the ritualist is arroud this skill design..
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Xinrae%27s_Weapon
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wielder%27s_Remedy
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Vengeful_Weapon

Wich i think it is what we saw with the spirit lookign Axe effect.

Ogwom.7940:

Do you suppose the purifier/firebrand will use axe/torch and staff combo?

Also I would love for the staff 1 skill to apply burning

It’s not a condition weapon, so I don’t see why it should.

RabbitUp.8294:

Even if F2 is healing, I wonder if Firebrand can play as a healer. We sure don’t have anything close to Druid’s staff or Ele’s Staff in Water attun.

I wish they buffed our staff. It doesn’t need a huge amount of changes, just up the healing numbers, add some healing to #1, put a blast finisher on #2 (and maybe #4), increase the might duration on #4, reduce #5’s cd by 10 seconds like it is on pvp, maybe add projectile destruction on #5, but that’s pushing it.

If F2 is anything like Tome of Courage, it’ll definitely be able to play as a healer. The staff is a decent-ish healing weapon (could certainly be better), but as long as accessing tomes isn’t too infrequent, firebrands/purifiers should be able to heal just fine with tomes and healing utilities. The druid’s staff doesn’t actually heal all that much.

The staff’s auto-attack should just get reworked honestly. It should actually do something supportive (like on the level of the ele’s water staff) rather than literally being a farming tool.
The only other things I’d change after that is the cooldown on the orb detonation, and increasing the radius on Empower, but I’d really just be happy with the auto-attack being replaced.

Even if F2 is like Tome of Courage, it’s gated by some kind of resource, so it would be nice to have something to fall back on healing-wise, like Axe is apparently the same for a condi build even though F1 alone is quite a lot of condi pressure, before considering what the actual tome portion of it does.

While I agree the auto attack needs something more (and the shape is ideal to have it be an ally heal), that alone is not enough. #2 has too long of a cd for what it does, and Empower’s usefulness is questionable when blasting fire fields is so accesible. It could at least last as long as blasting a fire field, not half that.

RabbitUp.8294:

Even if F2 is like Tome of Courage, it’s gated by some kind of resource, so it would be nice to have something to fall back on healing-wise, like Axe is apparently the same for a condi build even though F1 alone is quite a lot of condi pressure, before considering what the actual tome portion of it does.

While I agree the auto attack needs something more (and the shape is ideal to have it be an ally heal), that alone is not enough. #2 has too long of a cd for what it does, and Empower’s usefulness is questionable when blasting fire fields is so accesible. It could at least last as long as blasting a fire field, not half that.

Where did you hear that about the axe? I suppose it all depends on how frequently tomes can be used.
If F2 is just a cleanse bot or something, that’ll be extremely disappointing.

I don’t really disagree; it really would be quite nice to have a proper non-tome healing weapon. Honestly, if I had it my way, I’d completely rework the staff. The boring WvW farming/swiftness bot aspect of it really holds it back.
- Wave of Farming should get trashed and replaced with a properly balanced version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_of_Judgment.
- Orb of Light’s cooldown is too high.
- Symbol of Swiftness applying swiftness is particularly boring and not that useful. Superspeed with a shorter duration would be much more interesting.
- Empower’s range should be increased to at least 900, or it should be able to be cast while moving.
- Line of Warding is fine.

I wouldn’t mind the staff’s current messy design if the new spec got a real support weapon, but since they thought that condition cancer was more important, they should really change some stuff on the staff.

Personally, I like the close-range area nature of guardian staff. I’d be quite sad to see its auto turned into a long-range poke like the other staves in the game (daredevil excepted, of course).

The areas I’d probably be focusing on would be:

Staff 2: Attempting to detonate is fiddly (can be quite hard to get it to detonate at the right location) and carries a significant cost (you can’t use the non-detonated Orb of Light for twelve seconds) for a pretty small reward even if you use it perfectly. I’d probably remove the increased recharge for detonation. This might require a bit of rebalancing of the detonate effect, but this might not actually be needed in an environment where healing of allies has been made substantially stronger than it was in vanilla GW2. I might even consider making detonation happen by default and make it a ground-targeted attack so it’s easier to place.

Staff 3: There is something paradoxical about a symbol that provides swiftness but requires you to remain in the symbol. I’d probably do one of two things:

1: Give it the Temporal Curtain treatment: a long-duration Swiftness boon if you don’t already have Swiftness, but if you already do, the application is shorter.
2: Give it some other effect. The shield icon suggests something defensive in nature (it used to be Symbol of Protection, and they didn’t think to change the icons…), so it could pulse 1s of Resistance, or a condition cleanse, or at least cleanse movement-impairing conditions.

I hope the “initiative” bar has nothing to do with the tomes. I am not completely sold on the idea of axe being a condition weapon or Firebrand/Purifier as a condition based specialization for Guardian yet, as it would completely render shield and focus as useless and force us to use torch in our offhand (which is arguably our most poorly designed weapon IMO). But to kind of compromise between power and condition, here is my idea:

I would like to see the initiative bar act in reverse as it does for thief. For example, a successful auto attack (number 1) would generate one initiative. Once you generate the six or so initiative your number 2 and 3 attack would also afflict torment onto the target (the stacks should be at fairly substantial, maybe one stack per initiative). Once this occurs, your initiative bar is reset and your chain starts over. I think this would offer good synergy with other traitlines, namely Zeal/Radiance for the passive burning applications based off symbols, while maintaining some power damage.

Axe autoattack would be three chains, first chain single hit, second chain two hits, third chain would one hit and our symbol that pulses quickness to five targets. Melee range.
Axe 2-3 would operate as 900 range. Preferably offering some sort of piercing or cc to help Guardians in that department

I would like for it to not be only a power or condition based specialization, but able to do either effectively

Fashion Mage.3712:

RabbitUp.8294:

Even if F2 is like Tome of Courage, it’s gated by some kind of resource, so it would be nice to have something to fall back on healing-wise, like Axe is apparently the same for a condi build even though F1 alone is quite a lot of condi pressure, before considering what the actual tome portion of it does.

While I agree the auto attack needs something more (and the shape is ideal to have it be an ally heal), that alone is not enough. #2 has too long of a cd for what it does, and Empower’s usefulness is questionable when blasting fire fields is so accesible. It could at least last as long as blasting a fire field, not half that.

Where did you hear that about the axe? I suppose it all depends on how frequently tomes can be used.
If F2 is just a cleanse bot or something, that’ll be extremely disappointing.

I don’t really disagree; it really would be quite nice to have a proper non-tome healing weapon. Honestly, if I had it my way, I’d completely rework the staff. The boring WvW farming/swiftness bot aspect of it really holds it back.
- Wave of Farming should get trashed and replaced with a properly balanced version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_of_Judgment.
- Orb of Light’s cooldown is too high.
- Symbol of Swiftness applying swiftness is particularly boring and not that useful. Superspeed with a shorter duration would be much more interesting.
- Empower’s range should be increased to at least 900, or it should be able to be cast while moving.
- Line of Warding is fine.

I wouldn’t mind the staff’s current messy design if the new spec got a real support weapon, but since they thought that condition cancer was more important, they should really change some stuff on the staff.

A single-target/dual-target heal I can’t control? I’d rather keep the lootstick.
Keeping the AA as is mechanically is completely fine, just add a heal component to it. The animation is slow, the damage is low, what is worrysome about it? Ele’s water AA heals in an AoE around the impact (and you can cast it on your feet to heal around you) on top of other potent healing skills the staff carries.

Making axe a support weapon would just make me quit the class because it would show they have no intention of fixing the class’ problems. We have 2 underperforming support weapons, they can buff those instead of releasing a third behind a paywall.

Falseprophet.1502:

I hope the “initiative” bar has nothing to do with the tomes. I am not completely sold on the idea of axe being a condition weapon or Firebrand/Purifier as a condition based specialization for Guardian yet, as it would completely render shield and focus as useless and force us to use torch in our offhand (which is arguably our most poorly designed weapon IMO). But to kind of compromise between power and condition, here is my idea:

I would like to see the initiative bar act in reverse as it does for thief. For example, a successful auto attack (number 1) would generate one initiative. Once you generate the six or so initiative your number 2 and 3 attack would also afflict torment onto the target (the stacks should be at fairly substantial, maybe one stack per initiative). Once this occurs, your initiative bar is reset and your chain starts over. I think this would offer good synergy with other traitlines, namely Zeal/Radiance for the passive burning applications based off symbols, while maintaining some power damage.

Axe autoattack would be three chains, first chain single hit, second chain two hits, third chain would one hit and our symbol that pulses quickness to five targets. Melee range.
Axe 2-3 would operate as 900 range. Preferably offering some sort of piercing or cc to help Guardians in that department

I would like for it to not be only a power or condition based specialization, but able to do either effectively

There’s exactly 0 chance the initiative bar is tied to the axe, they have never tied a new profession mechanic to the new weapon.

I have no doubt axe is condi, all our weapons are pure power, how could it be anything else? As for the off-hand, focus and shield are not used for damage anyway, but for their utility, and will continue to be used for the same reason. Torch is already mandatory for power DPS builds.

Yeah, I’m 99% certain the new resource has nothing to do with the axe or some sort of passive condition cancer. I don’t see it being related to anything but tomes honestly; in fact it’s even right next to them.

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I like the close-range area nature of guardian staff. I’d be quite sad to see its auto turned into a long-range poke like the other staves in the game (daredevil excepted, of course).

Why? It’s completely useless for anything except farming; using it in PvE or PvP literally isn’t even worth the casting time. It’s not exactly a high-skill auto-attack either. It’s the biggest factor holding the weapon back from being a true support weapon. As soon as you’re done using skills #2 to #5, there’s no reason to even think of staying on the staff.

RabbitUp.8294:

A single-target/dual-target heal I can’t control? I’d rather keep the lootstick.
Keeping the AA as is mechanically is completely fine, just add a heal component to it. The animation is slow, the damage is low, what is worrysome about it? Ele’s water AA heals in an AoE around the impact (and you can cast it on your feet to heal around you) on top of other potent healing skills the staff carries.

Making axe a support weapon would just make me quit the class because it would show they have no intention of fixing the class’ problems. We have 2 underperforming support weapons, they can buff those instead of releasing a third behind a paywall

A 600 range cone is much larger than Water Blast’s area of effect, you can be certain that if it ever heals, it’ll heal for some garbage amount like 100 health. Not that I agree with that since it wouldn’t self-heal, but I’m sure that’s how the devs would balance it. I’d rather have a really strong single-target heal (which is something that doesn’t actually exist in the game right now) rather than a poor man’s Water Blast. Also if it just targets the ally with the lowest health in range, I don’t think it’d need to be controlled. Additionally, if F2 is a healing tome, the long-range auto-attack would fit in nicely for the staff.
If they actually gave Wave of Wrath a substantial healing value because it can’t self-heal, I wouldn’t mind either way, but I still think something like Light of Judgment would be better.

I hate to break it to you, but that’s already the case. The class has no condition weapon, and the axe is that weapon.

How is the AA holding staff back, though? That implies it’s either too good or too abusable, and I don’t think the lootstick is either of those.

It’s not even unique, flamethrower has the same utility, and it’s still has multiple useful aspects.

RabbitUp.8294:

How is the AA holding staff back, though? That implies it’s either too good or too abusable, and I don’t think the lootstick is either of those.

It’s not even unique, flamethrower has the same utility, and it’s still has multiple useful aspects.

I meant that it’s holding it back because it doesn’t do anything supportive (or anything besides farming anyway) like the rest of the weapon. It’s “okay” right now because it has some use in WvW and that’s it (and even then mainly just as a farming device). Every other weapon in the game has an auto-attack that let’s you do what the weapon is supposed to do in-between cooldowns, but with a staff you should really just swap the weapon no matter what because you aren’t supporting kitten with Wave of Farming.

The flamethrower inflicts huge amounts of burning, hence why it isn’t garbage and actually does what the weapon is supposed to do. If the staff’s auto did an equivalent amount of healing, I’d be fine with it.

Fashion Mage.3712:

If they actually gave Wave of Wrath a substantial healing value because it can’t self-heal, I wouldn’t mind either way, but I still think something like Light of Judgment would be better.

That’s what I’m balancing it around, it will be a purely selfless heal. And you are underestimating Water Blast. The radius is not exactly tiny, and more importantly, you can heal from 1200 range.

I hate to break it to you, but that’s already the case. The class has no condition weapon, and the axe is that weapon.

What do you mean by that? That axe will be our only condi weapon and it will be behind a paywall (ignoring torch)?

I complained about the condi situation enough already, especially because they refuse to give us the pvp version of VoJ, which would help the base condi build a lot. Still, a condi weapon would be a new addition to the class, which is what elite specs do.

But a new support weapon would not be a new addition, when we have 2 support weapons already and they can buff those.

Fashion Mage.3712:

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, I like the close-range area nature of guardian staff. I’d be quite sad to see its auto turned into a long-range poke like the other staves in the game (daredevil excepted, of course).

Why? It’s completely useless for anything except farming; using it in PvE or PvP literally isn’t even worth the casting time. It’s not exactly a high-skill auto-attack either. It’s the biggest factor holding the weapon back from being a true support weapon. As soon as you’re done using skills #2 to #5, there’s no reason to even think of staying on the staff.

Several reasons:

1: It’s different. Apart from the odd environmental weapon, the only other weapon with a similar feel is the engineer flamethrower – and, arguable, elementalist dagger.

2: The cone attack is one of the most reliable ways to hit multiple targets in the game. You say that it “isn’t even worth the casting time” – even if I agreed, this, to me, is an argument for buffing it, not replacing it altogether. However, as long as you’re hitting at least two targets, Wave of Wrath out-DPSes Orb of Wrath, so I don’t think it’s that bad. It’s just not oriented towards fighting single opponents.

3: I personally don’t consider bouncing attacks to be the epitome of skill either. In fact, I’d say a cone requires more skill than a long-range bouncing attack, since you need to position yourself for best effect.

4: If you’re a support guardian (in core, at least – the new elite spec might change things) you WANT to be within 600 range of those you’re supporting (virtue actives, Empower, shouts, you may even be using Receive the Light), which likely means within 600 range of the target. So a 600 range attack doesn’t seem to be too much of a handicap. In fact, people have suggested adding a heal to Wave of Wrath – doing so would provide a perfectly decent supportive element and would actually be easier to ensure that the healing goes where it’s needed than the uncontrollable nature of bouncing attacks.

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

1. Well you said it yourself, it’s essentially a poor man’s flamethrower. I wouldn’t call that unique, but more importantly, I definitely wouldn’t call it interesting either.

2. If it was good for AoE damage, you would see more use of it in PvP. It isn’t, and thus it doesn’t show up in PvP outside of support builds, and in that case, it certainly isn’t being used for the auto-attack.

3. A cone doesn’t even need you to be in line-of-sight, let alone even needing to be locked on to the target. It is the epitome of a brainless auto-attack.

4. Again, that’d be fine assuming it’s balanced properly.

RabbitUp.8294:

That’s what I’m balancing it around, it will be a purely selfless heal. And you are underestimating Water Blast. The radius is not exactly tiny, and more importantly, you can heal from 1200 range.

I’d be happy with that then, but if it’s anything like the engi’s Med Blaster, then they can keep it.
On the contrary, I think Water Blast is really good and I wish the staff’s auto was more like it, but I feel like it heals as much as it does because the water staff as a whole basically does nothing but healing and some cleansing.

RabbitUp.8294:

What do you mean by that? That axe will be our only condi weapon and it will be behind a paywall (ignoring torch)?

I don’t really care about paying for the next expansion to get stuff, but yes, that’s essentially what I’m saying. The reason I buy the expansion will basically be to get a set of skills I already had two years ago that got removed for bad reasons (assuming tomes haven’t been butchered already).

Ideally, an elite spec should change how a class plays, but not necessarily change what the class is already capable of doing. The ele’s upcoming weaver elite spec is a perfect example of this. Hopefully the purifier/firebrand will be the same, although I wouldn’t mind if it allowed for a different condition build as long as it’s not the focus of the elite spec.

Fashion Mage.3712:

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

1. Well you said it yourself, it’s essentially a poor man’s flamethrower. I wouldn’t call that unique, but more importantly, I definitely wouldn’t call it interesting either.

2. If it was good for AoE damage, you would see more use of it in PvP. It isn’t, and thus it doesn’t show up in PvP outside of support builds, and in that case, it certainly isn’t being used for the auto-attack.

3. A cone doesn’t even need you to be in line-of-sight, let alone even needing to be locked on to the target. It is the epitome of a brainless auto-attack.

4. Again, that’d be fine assuming it’s balanced properly.

1. How many flamethrower-type weapons are there? Three, including elementalist dagger. How many long-range, two-handed poking sticks with a few circular AoEs and control effects among the 2-5 skills are there? Every longbow in the game, every other core staff, and arguably thief shortbow counts (the ‘arguably’ is because it only has 900 range)… and that’s without considering one-handed weapons with similar behaviours.

2. Like I said, this is a matter of balancing the numbers, not throwing it out altogether. Mind you, I suspect a large part of the reason it’s not seen in PvP is not that the #1 isn’t useful, it’s that the 2-5, by and large, are not useful in PvP. While the staff can pressure and support, none of the skills on the line can help to secure a kill/cap/decap or prevent the enemy from doing so, with the possible exception of a well-placed and well-timed Line of Warding… and the pushback from the shield will do the job just as well most of the time.

3. If all you want to do is get a hit in, sure. If you want to achieve the full potential, you need to position yourself to hit as many targets at once as you can (doubly so if a heal is added).

Autoattacks, by and large, generally aren’t intended to require a lot of thought. Most melee attacks are cone attacks, just range 130 or so rather than range 600. Projectile attacks require line of sight, but it’s still pretty mindless to just let your auto fire away in between other attacks. In a PvE situation where the enemy isn’t actively taking cover, I certainly would not say that a projectile has anything over a cone in the ‘brainless’ factor, and there’ll be situations where maximising the effect of a cone will require more thought than just plinking away with a projectile.

Now, line projectiles can require a bit more thought, in that they require both LOS, positioning, and often, careful choice of target. However, staff already has one of those in Orb of Light.

The reason staff is not used in pvp is because it offers no survivability or mobility, and it doesn’t have burst to make up for it either. Technically, the heals are supposed to be that survivability, but they are way undertuned and on a big cooldown.

RabbitUp.8294:

The reason staff is not used in pvp is because it offers no survivability or mobility, and it doesn’t have burst to make up for it either. Technically, the heals are supposed to be that survivability, but they are way undertuned and on a big cooldown.

That was pretty much what I was thinking of in terms of “securing a kill/cap or preventing the enemy from doing so”, except that I was also thinking of control effects like immobilise and hard CC, which staff also lacks. Good use of control can be the difference between a kill and a close shave, but Line of Warding is the only thing staff has in that area. Granted, I’ve seen Line of Warding (and the elementalist equivalent in the earth attunement on staff) make the difference… but it usually only does so once because it catches people by surprise. Once people are ready for it it’s mitigated fairly easily.

draxynnic.3719:

Snip

1. Nice cherry picking by generalizing every long-ranged auto in the game, but currently there’s only a single auto-attack (long-ranged or otherwise) which bounces to allies, and that’s the mesmer’s staff’s auto-attack. A bouncing heal like I suggested would also function as the only single-target heal in the game (afaik).

2. There are two reasons anyone would use the staff in PvP. One is to support allies with #2/#4/#5, and the other reason is to attempt to bunker via AH, which isn’t the best idea because Empower makes you a sitting duck, the user isn’t affected by outgoing healing, there’s no cleric amulet, and the mace does that better anyway. If people want AoE damage they’ll just use symbols from the sword/mace/scepter.

3. If by “positioning yourself” you mean “being in range and aiming your camera vaguely in the direction of the enemy”, then sure. It’s not a projectile either, so you don’t have to worry about anything missing or being reflected. It has enough range that you don’t need to worry about it being kited. You don’t need to think at all. The only thing you need to worry about is why you would have wasted a second casting garbage when you could’ve been doing something else.

Off the top of my head, the ele’s staff’s #1 skills certainly need to be used properly. If an enemy is moving too much they’ll miss and they can all be reflected back at you, in fact fireball is sometimes better aimed manually so that you can hit as many people as possible. Water blast also needs to be aimed manually, and Chain Lightning should be used for a homing attack (if one is desperately needed since Chain Lightning is kind of crap too). Coincidentally the ele’s staff and a lot of other long-ranged weapons really do need you to properly position yourself. Just off the top of my head, the ranger’s longbow and the mesmer’s greatsword both have auto-attacks that are range-dependent, and the druid’s staff needs them positioned between them allies to generate Astral Force. Coincidentally, all of these long-ranged auto-attacks are functionally quite interesting.

1. I presume you’re not including underwater weapons in that, since your very idea comes from an underwater weapon? Both mesmer and guardian trident do that too.

I don’t think it adds much uniqueness, and I don’t think a single-target heal from a bounce that you can’t control and often won’t hit the person who really needs it – particularly if that person is backing away – is really going to be as useful as you seem to think it will be. Particularly since skills that bounce to allies also have the potential of simply bouncing between enemies and not providing the support role you envision at all unless there’s only one enemy to hit.

I’d also note that guardian, by theme, is supposed to be a profession that fights or supports up close or at least in the midline, not hanging out at the back with the staff elementalist and the longbow ranger.

(Regarding ‘cherry picking by generalising’ – I recognise that every weapon has its own different perks and characteristics… and the same is true when you compare guardian staff to flamethrower and elementalist dagger. Nevertheless, all of those weapons I included, and others which I didn’t such as mesmer greatsword and revenant hammer, are quite similar in their general playstyle even if the skills themselves are different, while guardian staff is in a completely different family with little representation in the current game.)

2. I think RabbitUp and I have both explained why you don’t see staff often in PvP. It’s not the autoattack, it’s that the weapon as a whole is not suited for the current PvP environment.

3. Like I said, if all you want to do is get one hit in, sure. Getting all five (or one on each available enemy, if less than five) requires positioning. I’ve already mentioned line attacks, and I don’t consider ‘keep yourself at range’ to be a particularly taxing decision to make (generally, with a ranged weapon, you want to be close to the limit of your effective range anyway because that’s safer, unless you have a reason not to – which, granted, a greatsword mesmer might, because against a single target with no allies nearby, Mirror Blade is most effective up close… on the other hand, mesmers can summon allies). However, those examples are irrelevant, since you’re suggesting a bouncing projectile, where generally the limit of consideration is ‘target an enemy that will give the attack an opportunity to bounce into a desired secondary target’.

We all agree the staff doesn’t live up to expectation as a support weapon. Now arguing whether you can have skillful autoattacks in a tab-targetting game or how unique each mechanic is, it looks a bit pointless to me.

The point we need to get across is that staff and mace could use a rework and leave it at that.

RabbitUp.8294:

Falseprophet.1502:

I hope the “initiative” bar has nothing to do with the tomes. I am not completely sold on the idea of axe being a condition weapon or Firebrand/Purifier as a condition based specialization for Guardian yet, as it would completely render shield and focus as useless and force us to use torch in our offhand (which is arguably our most poorly designed weapon IMO). But to kind of compromise between power and condition, here is my idea:

I would like to see the initiative bar act in reverse as it does for thief. For example, a successful auto attack (number 1) would generate one initiative. Once you generate the six or so initiative your number 2 and 3 attack) would also afflict torment onto the target (the stacks should be at fairly substantial, maybe one stack per initiative). Once this occurs, your initiative bar is reset and your chain starts over. I think this would offer good synergy with other traitlines, namely Zeal/Radiance for the passive burning applications based off symbols, while maintaining some power damage.

Axe autoattack would be three chains, first chain single hit, second chain two hits, third chain would one hit and our symbol that pulses quickness to five targets. Melee range.
Axe 2-3 would operate as 900 range. Preferably offering some sort of piercing or cc to help Guardians in that department

I would like for it to not be only a power or condition based specialization, but able to do either effectively

There’s exactly 0 chance the initiative bar is tied to the axe, they have never tied a new profession mechanic to the new weapon.

I have no doubt axe is condi, all our weapons are pure power, how could it be anything else? As for the off-hand, focus and shield are not used for damage anyway, but for their utility, and will continue to be used for the same reason. Torch is already mandatory for power DPS builds.

Please read my post one more time. I never stated the initiative bar should be tied to axe only. My post was to find that median between power and condition damage, which proves that it should not be a weapon based purely off of condition damage. Why in the world would we get one condition based weapon out of the 10 we currently can use? If it is solely based off conditions, that will completely force players who enjoy optimization to play one way, killing off the fairly decent build diversity we have right now.

Also, I stated that attacks 1-3 should be tied to it, implying all weapons. (see bold) This would introduced unused skills in rotation, namely PVE where skills like Zealot’s Defense or Leap of Faith see no time in any proper rotation.

Sure, torch is required for optimization, but have you ever played a Power build in PvP/WvW with torch? No, because it’s not designed well, (my point in my original post) which you do not address, instead you point out something that is so blatantly obvious to anyone who mains Guardian.

To anyone that mains guardian, it’s blatantly obvious why torch won’t be a must-use weapon even if axe is purely condi.

RabbitUp.8294:

To anyone that mains guardian, it’s blatantly obvious why torch won’t be a must-use weapon even if axe is purely condi.

Wow. Talk about serious cherry picking and forgetfulness. Your perception is clearly your reality. I am in serious doubt you even play Guardian by the way you reply.

Explain to me how shield or even focus, after you even stated that “torch is already mandatory for power builds,” and yet moments later have the gull to even deny that torch will be a must use for a condition based build since it’s the only offhand weapon that applies any condition, will see any use in PvE if this elite specialization will be a condition based specialization?

Falseprophet.1502 i think wont be a condi spec but will be anti-condi spec, something like the reverse of necro.