Guild Wars 2

Does it exist?

Now I only play guardian/DH as an alt class for fun, but compared to my main necro that has so many different variations in viable builds, especially for condi, trying to do anything different than the metabattle copypasta build seems like you’re asking for failure.

I tried condi DH with and without traps, and it failed pretty hard, though I don’t think condi base guard would fare much better. It just felt like the virtues traits needed to have good condi application weren’t viable because you had to give up any form of sustain to do so.

I tried support builds. They can’t support in this meta. Too much cleave from revs or CC from other things to get rezzes.

Is there anything else I’ve overlooked? Are there any viable bruiser builds? Or is all we have “drop test of faith and hope that people walk through it more times than they should while spamming true shot?”

Guards used to have a decent bunker build back at launch, however it doesn’t really compare to other bunkers anymore.

Over all guardian just doesn’t have build diversity in multiple games modes due to multiple reasons like

1: Spirit weapons are crap & die easily

2: Signets are clunky, badly designed & even their trait is meh compared to what others have.

3: Consecrations, are extremely niche and not worth using for the vast majority of things.

4: About 1/3 to 1/2 the traits are extremely poor options for 99.99% of the game compared to other options available.

5: The sword, hammer, & staff all need some love if they want them to ever see serious use for anything.

Core Guardian burn builds actually do work a little better than DH burn builds, since you can run Radiance/Valor/Virtues for a good mix of burst and sustain. Dropping Radiance means losing a huge chunk of damage, losing Valor makes you glass, and giving up Virtues keeps you from being good for anything outside of 1v1’s. DH brings Cripple/Vulnerability for control and cover conditions, and potentially better condition cleansing, but unfortunately, it’s just not enough to compensate for the core capabilities you lose when you sacrifice the other lines.

That said, Burn Guardian still doesn’t have the easiest time in this meta. Revenants losing their perma-resistance helped out some, but Burn Guards still hate the abundance of cleansing, Resistance, and CC that the most popular builds have brought along with them. Conversely, condi Reapers and Revenants are bringing along boon corrupts, regular Stability, and a much wider variety of conditions to cover their damage against cleansing, so they don’t struggle with these issues to nearly the same degree. You can have some success with a Burn build, but it’s much harder than it was pre-HoT, and you’re going to struggle significantly more as your opponents get better. Burn Guardian’s biggest advantage, in my opinion, is the psychological impact it has on players with its quick stacking and good re-application of burns. If you can take advantage of that, you can still cut people down who aren’t ready for the build (which is a good number, since it’s all but disappeared from play by now).

You’re also correct regarding bunkers – even with the DH’s capabilities, the sustain is notably lower than it used to be and not nearly as viable in competitive play. My Cele Druid and even Marauder Scrapper feel just as tanky as any variation of Cele/Cleric’s/Magi Guardian that I’ve tried, and they don’t feel nearly as risky to play. If I mismanage my cooldowns on Bunker Guardian, I can be wiped out in short order (especially against coordinated condi pressure), while Druid and Scrapper allow for a number of mistakes before I die (assuming I don’t just disengage first via Ancestral Grace or Stealth Gyro).

Unfortunately, there was a reason why the Guardian/DH was the third profession to drop out of the competitive meta, right after Warrior and Thief. The game’s general power creep has made our build diversity significantly worse than it was in the pre-HoT meta (where it was feasible to run Power Meditation, Burn, or full Bunker builds). While some professions have flourished with the introduction of their elite specs, the DH’s mechanics are too shallow and don’t interact well enough with the core Guardian’s design to open up many new competitive possibilities. Our DH meta build is just our old Power Meditation build with the Zeal line swapped for DH, different weapons (Longbow/Sword+Focus instead of GS/Scepter+Focus), and Purification/Test of Faith instead of Shelter/Smite Condition.

If you’re interested, some further background on the issues at play here:

The Guardian is generally considered one of Anet’s “pet” professions when it comes to balancing, and I’ll grant that there’s a good basis for that opinion. From launch to HoT, we were always meta in every game mode, and I don’t think any other profession can make that claim. The truth is a little more complicated, though. Shouts, Meditations, and Shelter have actually just been good enough to carry us through each meta, despite increasing power creep in the game and the glaring flaws present in many of our weapons, traits, and utilities. As a quick example, 3 of our 5 core utility types have never been viable for dedicated builds in any game mode in the history of the game (Signets, Spirit Weapons, Consecrations), and from these utility types, only 4 utilities are ever used with any frequency in any game mode. To list them, you’ve got:

1. Bane Signet (PvE)
2. Shield of the Avenger (PvE)
3. Purging Flames (all)
4. Wall of Reflection (PvE/WvW).

You might occasionally also see a Signet of Judgment, and maybe a Signet of Wrath in a PvE Burn build (just for the stats), but those are rarities. If you look at all of the Guardian’s utilities, you’ll find that roughly half of them have never been used regularly in any game mode at any point in the game’s lifespan. I’m fairly sure that the Elementalist is the only other profession that’s dealt with such severe utility skill problems, and it should come as no surprise that Eles have also historically struggled with build diversity while riding on the things that make their strong builds so good.

As Ragnar mentioned above, we also have a number of frustrating weapon mechanics that aren’t aging well with HoT, and some traits that should have been obliterated with the specialization revamp (see Wrathful Spirit, Healer’s Retribution, the Zeal Minors, and so on). Many of our trait lines are badly designed in general. Besides the minor trait issues with Zeal, Honor is extremely overcrowded, and Virtues acts as a trait graveyard because of how mandatory Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage are for everything but Burn Guard and PvE Dragonhunter.

At the end of the day, what this all amounts to is that we have no recourse once our main builds finally give way to power creep. We have little room for innovation because too much of what we’ve got wasn’t even viable at launch, let alone now. I wrote this much without even going into our specific weapon issues, or how underwhelming our untraited profession mechanic is (3 crappy Signets, basically). Much like Warriors and Eles, Guardians (and Dragonhunters) are in need of a complete revamp to genuinely be “in a good spot.”

^Excellent post.

I agree with most of what you said Soryuju, but I just want to add that I’ve found a celestial trapper build that I’ve had great success with. I run honor instead of valor, which helps with rezzing as well as sustain while fighting on a point.. Basically, I have permanent vigor along with an extra 15% endurance boost which really helps me avoid the big attacks.

The burn damage isn’t insane, but it’s extremely helpful against enemies with protection or immunity to direct damage. I can usually deal between 400k – 700k damage in a match, and the sustain is amazing.

hotcarl.8621:

I agree with most of what you said Soryuju, but I just want to add that I’ve found a celestial trapper build that I’ve had great success with. I run honor instead of valor, which helps with rezzing as well as sustain while fighting on a point.. Basically, I have permanent vigor along with an extra 15% endurance boost which really helps me avoid the big attacks.

The burn damage isn’t insane, but it’s extremely helpful against enemies with protection or immunity to direct damage. I can usually deal between 400k – 700k damage in a match, and the sustain is amazing.

Glad to hear it! I think I tried something similar early on in HoT, but never got back around to playing it again. I did read that the 15% endurance boost from Purity of Body doesn’t stack with Vigor (but I haven’t tested it myself), and it’s kind of lame if that’s true. Honor is definitely great for sustain, though, and these days, I usually run it over Valor if I’m trying to play a DH bunker.

If you’re not opposed to posting your build, I’m sure the OP would appreciate the chance to try it out.

With my points above, I didn’t mean that there’s no possible builds left to try on the Guardian/DH, just that it’s an uphill battle and that it probably won’t get better without fundamental changes to the profession, or at least serious global nerfs that change the entire landscape of PvP. With Anet’s track record, those changes aren’t coming any time soon, so if something works for you, run with it.

Btw I used to use signet of resolve in all game modes (for my tanky shout/support guardian), and still use it in PvE and WvW. But I have switched over to purification for PvP.

That one example aside, I do agree with you that guardian has a huge number of traits and even more utilities that are completely useless.

Anyway Soryuju, +1 to your post, everything you said was spot on. And the OP is correct as well, necro has many viable builds, while guardian is pigeonholed into a few similar versions of trapper DH right now.

As for you nearlight, I can give you my shout/support guard build that I used pre-HoT for PvP, as well as the dragonhunter build I run now. I’m not entirely sure the bunker can hold its own in the current meta, but you’re welcome to try it:

Shout/Bunker Guard
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR5el0AhWhYvQwUIQQEHxDVNAagCAvEJRWkTxXMGB-TpBBwASuAAAeAAYOCAmLDUd/hNHEAA

Feel free to swap out Wall of Reflection for another shout (Hold the Line) if you don’t need the reflect.

As for my current DH build, I’ve definitely had a lot of success running this. I’m currently working my way through ruby and a lot of my wins are from my dragonhunter. It’s not quite as tanky as the bunker and does require some finesse and good positioning, but it has a lot more sustain than the current DH marauder meta.

Celestial Trapper Build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAT5en8cCddiVdCODBkdiFLiCLAqtlUO2v9fPLDKvzD-TpBBABVcBAA4BAgxRAQw9H24gAAWZAA

For this build you want to spend ~75% of your time using the longbow. Functionally, it’s pretty similar to meditrapper, just without the JI shadowstep (that’s why traveler runes are a necessity, plus they help with your boon/condi uptime). Swap to mace/shield when you are getting focused.

Wow, I didn’t know that the +15% endurance doesn’t stack with vigor, that kind of bums me out. Anyway, I’m glad I’m not the only person who’s a fan of the honor spec. When I tell people about this build they usually look at me like I’m crazy.. Until they’re matched up against me, anyway.

All you need is here… condy cleanse/tankiness/DPS

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsd7flsAhmhY5QwVIwPEL+Dl86P+tvVAUB1ZWSMhZIA-T5gAwAjLD05oAA4FAAA

ppl saying burn DH doesnt have survivability? what about F2 and F3?? 2x!!!

tested and killed everything!!! except eles running diamond skin.. :/ in that case just run and find another dead body

Pluton.7364:

All you need is here… condy cleanse/tankiness/DPS

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsd7flsAhmhY5QwVIwPEL+Dl86P+tvVAUB1ZWSMhZIA-T5gAwAjLD05oAA4FAAA

ppl saying burn DH doesnt have survivability? what about F2 and F3?? 2x!!!

tested and killed everything!!! except eles running diamond skin.. :/ in that case just run and find another dead body

The burn build I tried is almost identical to this one, and I found it to be lacking compared to condi reaper builds. I may give it another go though.

hotcarl, your cele build looks interesting, so I’ll be sure to try that out.

I’m glad that you guys are trying to come up with good things to run though!