Guild Wars 2

What you’ll find is that things like Shimmering Defense and Shattered Aegis are superfluous when you’re using a sword/torch with 90% burn duration. Sword is a guaranteed burn on every AA. It takes a little over two seconds to get through an AA chain, so you’ve already got nearly 100% uptime (on a single target) as it is just autoattacking. Add in Torch 4 and Purging Flames and you’re basically never going to run out of burning. So I’d swap those to Scepter Power for your off-set and Blind Exposure since you’ve got the 15 Radiance and 5 Virtues needed for excellent Justice spamming (which incidentally is another source of long duration burning).

Oh and switch to Shelter, you’ve got plenty of condition clearing for dungeons as it is.

Edited to add: Also, while it’s tempting to run torches on both sets, don’t – run a Focus with your scepter so that you have access to more blinds and condition clearing. You’ll want to swap it for Shield for certain encounters involving projectiles.

Would you say that it’s yet another option guardians can’t take due to the low base hitpoint problem which hounds them at every turn?

No, nothing about the usefulness of condition damage is tied to our low base HP. Our traits and abilities just aren’t made to make use of condition damage as a stat, but that’s not our HP’s fault.

I am trying to do this burn build with minimum cost from my current build but I am having trouble trying to get my burn duration to get over that 100% threshold to get that second tic. Am I doing something wrong here?

rare veggie pizza 40%
20 in zeal 20%
radiant fire 20%
superior sigil of smoldering 10%
superior rune of lyssa x2 10%

I still don’t see my burn duration increased…. where did I go wrong?

Anything that increases condition duration (like the pizza) won’t be seen directly in the times shown in the burning duration tooltips. It’s still there though.

You should have enough. Go to the mists, equip a sword, and run through the autoattack chain against a single golem. When you hit the last attack, you should see two burning ticks within a second of one another.

There are some interesting discussions here.

I think there are two main forks for using burning as a Guardian, and that is whether to us VoJ passively or actively.

Going active means you do not need 30 pts in Virtues, and opens up other synergistic traits (namely Justice is Blind/Blind Exposure/Renewed Justice).

Things to consider.

1. Combo fields/finishers.
Fire field + whirl = burning bolts (ex: Purging Flames/Hallowed Ground + GS2/GS5). Does anyone have numbers on this? More importantly, what is the synergy or lack thereof with VoJ procs? Also, since we use symbols, what impact do combos have with the symbols (which are all light fields)? I don’t even know if multiple combos are allowed, or if LIFO takes effect.
2. There are numerous synergies with aegis that may make Shattered Aegis very useful. I want to know if activating VoC could potentially trigger 5 Shatters from allies?
3. I do think torch is not useful for the passive fork, but may be much more useful for the active.
4. Superior Sigil of Generosity transfers a condition. Great for the WvW meta, but do transferred conditions also use condition duration bonuses?
5. Shimmering Defense – great way to rally in WvW. Unfortunately overlaps other useful traits.

I am going to continue playing with the active VoJ line and see what I can find.

foofad.5162:

You should have enough. Go to the mists, equip a sword, and run through the autoattack chain against a single golem. When you hit the last attack, you should see two burning ticks within a second of one another.

Thank you I will try this again…

Burning Bolts is crappy. Basically, you only throw out one bolt per second the whirl is active. Or maybe it’s half second, I forget. So in other words for something like Whirling Wrath you only throw out like two or three bolts, total. And they only apply a couple of seconds of burning.

You can’t get multiple combos from multiple fields. It picks the oldest on the pile and goes with that.

Shattered Aegis is also crappy. It’s a two second AoE burn, but you only have access to your auto-Aegis (every 40 or 30 seconds traited), VoC popping (long cooldown) and Retreat in terms of actually applying Aegis. So you’re looking at many many seconds of cooldown for little return. I’m not sure if Shattered Aegis applies to allies.

I suspect that SA is one of the traits that will get overhauled in the big patch. I’ve actually been waiting to edit this post in a significant way until the balance patch, in hopes of some new stuff dramatically changing things.

Shattered Aegis is probably more crappy than you think. ( added to FAQ#40 )

It’s not even AoE, just burns the attacker.

The bolts from Whirling Wrath trigger every 0.4 seconds ( you get 3 for 1 cast of Whirling Wrath )

@bllius – combos are explained here: FAQ#29

Ok, revisiting this thread and thus re-reading from the beginning because I’m toying with a solo WvW build around sword/torch and burning. I’m trying to use or modify one of the builds in the threads here within what I have (too cheap to buy a 4th set of armor) so a mix of solider/berserker is what I have to start – a even mix. Same with trinkets

Can you just go 10 in Zeal for Fiery Wrath?
In the build I have now I went 30 into Radiance (searing flames, powerful blades, and right hand strength). 30 in virtues for Retaliatory Subconscious, Supreme Justice, and Permeating Wrath.

It seems the builds here spread out a bit more and hit at least 10 in Valor for defenders flame. Something I completely missed… It also seems from reading torch isn’t really a requirement…

Tons of people just dip into 10 Zeal for Fiery Wrath. It’s one of the staple traits. Torch is only worthwhile if you lack Permeating Wrath, but even then it’s iffy at best.

Excellent thread. This actually made me rework my guardian to use Permeating Wrath on my build because my current build was just too boring:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARWlYg67mFyKEm4ES2jVCBVQLFEEChpAjyIA-jUyAotARfCUWsIaslsoV8CbFOIqIMlKRUtLpIa1CBsYNA-w

It’s pretty much your average bunker guardian, but I figured with 2s burning (on targets without -condi duration), you get to apply more pressure via burning rather than relying on autoattacks from staff or greatsword skills and retaliation.

I chose 20 Radiance over 20 Zeal for a few reasons:
Same amount of condition duration because of Radiant Fire, also allows you to use a torch if you feel like it
More condition damage, even if not a whole lot
More precision to proc Vigorous Precision slightly better
Justice is Blind minor trait to secure stomps, followed by Renewed Justice to recharge VoJ
Shorter recharge on Signet of Resolve (I only use this because massive lack of self condi removal)

Downsides I’ve found are shorter boon durations, lower healing power and less condi removal. Though I’ve only found the third problem to be really an actual problem XD

Those are my reasons, because I felt like that 200 power, 10% more damage vs burning foes and Greatsword Mastery weren’t really worth it compared to what I gain in Radiance (arguable if you’re going for more raw damage). I’ve been finding this build to be pretty decent in all the group fights I’ve been in so far (5-8vX). Only real issue I have is when I use SY! and pull off a plethora of conditions and start melting, but then again regen, dodge rolls and staff 4 >

Let me know what you guys think

Do you feel you’re getting the most out of your runes?

The runes I find are helping maintain pressure, and it helps against anyone with Hoelbrak runes and/or -40% condi food, allowing for at least 1 tick of burning. I guess if people wanted to drop down to at least 60% burn duration it’d work too, using either Rare Veggie Pizza + traits and swap out runes for something more useful (like Traveler, boon duration, healing power, Soldier’s) or keep the burning duration runes and swap out veggie pizza for -40% condi food or healing power food. Relatively flexible dependent on what you like.

As someone brand new to GW2, and fascinated by Guardians—particularly the idea of a Burn build.. is this viable, and what would you recommend trait wise? I’m reading through the thread but a lot of it is theorycrafting way over my head at the moment, as I try to figure out the game. grin I appreciate all of the work y’all have put into this over the months, as it’s great to see a guide going even if I don’t understand a lot of it just yet.

It depends on the definition of viable. It’s fun, yeah. I think the hammer/mace symbols + permeating wrath build I’ve got now is probably one of my favorites. I usually kite the gravelings in Ascalonian Catacombs path 1 during the Hodgins graveling mound ordeal, and typically I’m the last one standing because I’m able to keep burns on 20 or 30 gravelings (if it gets that bad) and actually kill them. There are other small moments when it really shines besides that. But ultimately it’s not “meta” – that is, it’s not the best, for anything. I’m hoping that the December 10 patch will do something about that, but I’m not holding my breath. I said the exact same thing for the last major balance patch, ha.

But for the time being, my build is fun. I can heal, I have very high AOE damage potential if anemic in 1v1, and it’s satisfying everywhere I’ve been so far. So yeah, go for it. Just be aware that it’s not going to be the best, but as long as you’re content with that it’s fun.

If you do use permeating wrath (which, for reference, is basically my definition of a “burn build” – little else compares) just keep in mind that any attack with multi-hit capability is going to be to your advantage. Sword autoattacking, symbols (multiple targets per pulse), Smite with the scepter, Whirling Wrath, and so on.

If you don’t use permeating wrath (or a torch, but you can find out what I think about that in the guide itself) then you’re going to be pretty behind in terms of how much burning you can actually apply.

Love all the information you have right now Foofad! Out of curiosity, is your guide updated to the most recent update or are you waiting for the next patch to update it?

And would you mind posting the hammer/mace symbol + permeating wrath build you’re using right now? I’d love to give a shot at it!

Nothing really changed for burn builds this past balance patch. I’m waiting for the next one to really redo everything. I’d do it now but class got in the way.

I’m using this guy

I swap things out fairly regularly though. That’s more of a dungeon variation. For WvW I swap in Writ of Exaltation and Pure of Voice. In condition heavy dungeons I swap Save Yourselves for Purging Flames and Vengeful for Master of Consecrations.

If you don’t want to craft Celestial armor, you can get basically the same results with Cleric’s helmet and legs, Berserker shoulders, gloves and boots, and Soldier’s chest. You’ll just have less healing power and less Crit Damage, but higher Power, so it basically balances out.

I also use Traveler’s runes in WvW instead of Monk/Water.

Has anyone decided to try out superior rune of tormenting and sigil of torment with guardian burning builds? I was curious if it could help with guardians problem of not having a second damaging condition.

The major problem with rune and sigil based conditions is that there just aren’t enough stacks to make it worthwhile. Tormenting runes only give two stacks, and only when you heal, which is 128~ dps tops, if they keep moving. Bleeding or torment sigils are another 100-200~ dps tops. A Force sigil will do that, and isn’t dependent on critical hits, and it can’t be cured. So eh.

foofad.5162:

The major problem with rune and sigil based conditions is that there just aren’t enough stacks to make it worthwhile. Tormenting runes only give two stacks, and only when you heal, which is 128~ dps tops, if they keep moving. Bleeding or torment sigils are another 100-200~ dps tops. A Force sigil will do that, and isn’t dependent on critical hits, and it can’t be cured. So eh.

Thats just sad. Thanks for the info though.

Updates pending, please pardon the mess while I reformat the guide.

Saw your recent thread about creating a Power/Healing Hybrid. Reminded me of this Permeating Wrath build I decided to try after the patch. Figured I’d post it for critique.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQRArf5elYgSCXGyIEf4ES2DR6AVQrHEEC5PYF0IA-TIAgzCmA

Is this for PvP or PvE? You’re using the PvP editor so I assume it’s that. I can’t really critique for sPvP, I don’t usually run burning there.

foofad.5162:

Is this for PvP or PvE? You’re using the PvP editor so I assume it’s that. I can’t really critique for sPvP, I don’t usually run burning there.

A burning build doesn’t work in spvp either, its easily cleansed.

The point of my build was just to be a constant reapplier. I do not try for any long lasting burning. Instead, if you get close to me and the point I’m on I’ll constantly give you burns to negate the existence of your cleanses.

With Virtue of Justice and Supreme Justice, why do people care about one long burning uptime? Because of fear of kiting? When I look at Engie, Necro, and Warrior it’s not about the length of their bleeds and burns that people care about in PvP, but the speed and consistency of application. The burning duration that does exist in the build is primarily for linking Supreme Justice applications once a person is out of cleanses. Then at the end of the day, burning by itself isn’t going to cut it anyhow which is why I tried branching out. Alternatively I can run this build with a Soldier’s Amulet and some other trait changes.

I built the build in PvP first since it’s the cheapest way to test builds. If I like a build enough, whether or not it’s viable, then I bring it out with some alterations for PvP. If it ain’t going to be viable why spend the gold on it just yet?

I find it very sad for this thread to be unstickied. One of the few threads that show the current situation for cond/burn guards with true details and facts. Foofad provided a lot of information for both old and new guards, and yet this thread is going to be lost. Shame on the person who did this…

Aza.2105:

foofad.5162:

Is this for PvP or PvE? You’re using the PvP editor so I assume it’s that. I can’t really critique for sPvP, I don’t usually run burning there.

A burning build doesn’t work in spvp either, its easily cleansed.

It does if you apply it every 2 seconds.

Shardun.4823:

I find it very sad for this thread to be unstickied. One of the few threads that show the current situation for cond/burn guards with true details and facts. Foofad provided a lot of information for both old and new guards, and yet this thread is going to be lost. Shame on the person who did this…

I concur. It seems that with this unsticky, Arenanet are consigning the very concept of variety of Guardian builds to the dustbin

I see it as a positive. When the guide got a sticky it felt as though the devs were trying to convince us that condi build on guardian was viable. Now that they have admitted that it is not, the unsticky makes me believe that they are still in the process of developing a viable alternative. Hey, at least we are getting some form of attention.

Proven.2854:

The point of my build was just to be a constant reapplier. I do not try for any long lasting burning. Instead, if you get close to me and the point I’m on I’ll constantly give you burns to negate the existence of your cleanses.

With Virtue of Justice and Supreme Justice, why do people care about one long burning uptime? Because of fear of kiting? When I look at Engie, Necro, and Warrior it’s not about the length of their bleeds and burns that people care about in PvP, but the speed and consistency of application. The burning duration that does exist in the build is primarily for linking Supreme Justice applications once a person is out of cleanses. Then at the end of the day, burning by itself isn’t going to cut it anyhow which is why I tried branching out. Alternatively I can run this build with a Soldier’s Amulet and some other trait changes.

I built the build in PvP first since it’s the cheapest way to test builds. If I like a build enough, whether or not it’s viable, then I bring it out with some alterations for PvP. If it ain’t going to be viable why spend the gold on it just yet?

Taken from another thread, but I basically got the reply I was looking for:

The main thing is that any condition weapon would need to allow for two things: The ability to consistently apply a second condition other than burning, and the ability to spike that condition. Consistency helps with overall DPS, but real condition builds rely on being able to dump a large amount of stacks on a target at once. Trickles tickle, spike damage is what gets kills. We will never have a real condition build without being able to spike conditions. It’s one thing to maintain burning and a couple of stacks of bleed. It’s something else entirely to dump 15 short duration stacks plus burning.

Bold added for emphasis. Don’t take this post as an attack or anything; it’s just the most reasonable reason I’ve seen stated with the issue of Guardian Condition builds, from someone I feel has the most balanced perspective.

Personally, I disagree a bit. The current meta viable condition builds are Warrior (Sword/Sword with Longbow), Necro (Terror, with and without Dhuumfire), and Engineer (Grenades and Bombs), and they’re considered frustrating to play against and OP. What people would prefer is more consistent application that can overpower cleanses. I feel like Burning application is in a good place for this, and Guardians can gain the ability to supplant it with something other than another condition, whether it be with extra support options or control options.

But, if one wanted parity with the other classes such that all (or at least the considered viable ones e.g. Berserker, Rabid, Cleric, Settler, and Soldier) gear choices were viable in some type of build for all classes, then yes we’d need an extra condition of some sort. I’d prefer Torment, since Guardians are slow anyhow.

Excellent job with this thread. I haven’t played GW2 in months, but this thread is going to get my back playing because I want to try this out.

A few questions:

I think you have more than proved that burning can be made to be decent in an AoE sense. You even proved that it can be viable in WvW, which was surprising.However, I am curious about single target encounters. You can contribute very well against multiple enemies, but how does your contribution fare during boss encounters.

Also, I know that your thread is primarily about math, but I am curious if a burn build could be made to be viable in fractals.

EDIT:
I tend to run my guardians defensively, so I am looking forward to your update about using burns to supplement defensive builds.

This is extremely interesting since I just recently started messing around with a longer burning duration on my meditation guardian since I found it extremely helpful for the people who decided I hit too hard and wanted to kite.

I probably won’t try making a burning guardian, but I see this helping out my med guardian in the future. Even then, this is how I imagined condition classes should play out by dissecting and focusing your build around 1 or a few conditions. It’s unfortunate that most condition play in this game is fighting to have access to every condition in the game and then dropping it on your opponent as soon as you have the opportunity.

I am with timidobserver.7925 on this one too. I would like to know if a build can be viable in fractals. I love the burn/dps build tested from here and it seems to work great with my Celestial setup.

Even after all this time, I’m still working on building real metrics by which to value condition damage against power based damage. But I can tell you that for one-on-one stuff, Burning specific builds are really not great. The one overwhelming advantage to things like Purging Flames and Permeating Wrath is being able to burn everything in the room. It’s essentially limitless AOE, which is not something anyone else really has.

Re: Fractals, “Viable” is a relative term. To me, viable means it can successfully clear the content in an average group. In that sense, yeah any Permeating Wrath build would be fine… to a point. Defensively, you aren’t missing out on anything the meta builds have; Permanent Vigor, Master of Consecrations and so on. Offensively you’re giving up some desperately needed power based damage which can really hinder you in the top end of fractals, mostly in terms of multipliers and raw damage stats.

My recommendation: Try it. See how far you can get. If it becomes clear that you just can’t hack it anymore, be willing to change. Report back on how far that was.

By the way, I am still completely rewriting the thread – I’m doing so off site though so it doesn’t become an unreadable mess in the process. I’m also releasing a version of some of my comparisons along with it.

Ok foofad.5162, I will see how far I just don’t want to be the guy that kick out for not supporting. XD however, I feel that fractals seems more of a speed run, puzzle, and how fast you can burn mobs down type of challenge. I will report progress once I start running it.

foofad.5162:

Even after all this time, I’m still working on building real metrics by which to value condition damage against power based damage. But I can tell you that for one-on-one stuff, Burning specific builds are really not great. The one overwhelming advantage to things like Purging Flames and Permeating Wrath is being able to burn everything in the room. It’s essentially limitless AOE, which is not something anyone else really has.

Re: Fractals, “Viable” is a relative term. To me, viable means it can successfully clear the content in an average group. In that sense, yeah any Permeating Wrath build would be fine… to a point. Defensively, you aren’t missing out on anything the meta builds have; Permanent Vigor, Master of Consecrations and so on. Offensively you’re giving up some desperately needed power based damage which can really hinder you in the top end of fractals, mostly in terms of multipliers and raw damage stats.

My recommendation: Try it. See how far you can get. If it becomes clear that you just can’t hack it anymore, be willing to change. Report back on how far that was.

By the way, I am still completely rewriting the thread – I’m doing so off site though so it doesn’t become an unreadable mess in the process. I’m also releasing a version of some of my comparisons along with it.

Yeh, I am going to try it. I think that trading a little single target dps is acceptable if the build is fun. I’ll just keep my meta gear in reserve for any super serious stuff like high tier fractals or serious wvw runs.

Another question for you. For someone that doesn’t like running a healing power build nor spending a month grinding up celestial gear, do you think it would work out as well going something like 10/0/30/0/30 with a knights/Berserkers mix instead of 10/0/0/30/30 with a celestial/cleric/berserker mix??

I guess that 10/0/0/30/30 with knight/berserker could work too?

I been playing with the builds and so far it seems that going 0,30,0,30,10 seems to provide really good survival. What are you take on that setup?

Zeal: 0
Radiance: IV, X, XI
Valor: 0
Honor: II, VIII, XI
Virtues: VI

timidobserver.7925:

foofad.5162:

Even after all this time, I’m still working on building real metrics by which to value condition damage against power based damage. But I can tell you that for one-on-one stuff, Burning specific builds are really not great. The one overwhelming advantage to things like Purging Flames and Permeating Wrath is being able to burn everything in the room. It’s essentially limitless AOE, which is not something anyone else really has.

Re: Fractals, “Viable” is a relative term. To me, viable means it can successfully clear the content in an average group. In that sense, yeah any Permeating Wrath build would be fine… to a point. Defensively, you aren’t missing out on anything the meta builds have; Permanent Vigor, Master of Consecrations and so on. Offensively you’re giving up some desperately needed power based damage which can really hinder you in the top end of fractals, mostly in terms of multipliers and raw damage stats.

My recommendation: Try it. See how far you can get. If it becomes clear that you just can’t hack it anymore, be willing to change. Report back on how far that was.

By the way, I am still completely rewriting the thread – I’m doing so off site though so it doesn’t become an unreadable mess in the process. I’m also releasing a version of some of my comparisons along with it.

Yeh, I am going to try it. I think that trading a little single target dps is acceptable if the build is fun. I’ll just keep my meta gear in reserve for any super serious stuff like high tier fractals or serious wvw runs.

Another question for you. For someone that doesn’t like running a healing power build nor spending a month grinding up celestial gear, do you think it would work out as well going something like 10/0/30/0/30 with a knights/Berserkers mix instead of 10/0/0/30/30 with a celestial/cleric/berserker mix??

I guess that 10/0/0/30/30 with knight/berserker could work too?

I actually really dislike Knight’s gear. It’s not a Power-primary stat allocation. If you’re going to be mixing in survivability to your gear, I vastly prefer doing so with Soldiers gear rather than Knight’s. Yes, you do lose some crit chance, but the increase in power is actually going to make up for part of that – not just with the gear itself, but also when you use Sharpening Stones – you basically double-dip with the Power bonus from those when you use Soldiers. Plus, having extra actual HP is hugely beneficial for resisting burst damage in WvW.

Just remember, there’s some obscure minmaxing that goes on when mixing armor and trinkets. There is a “cost” associated with critical damage. For any given slot, look at Berserker gear; sum the stat points of Power and Precision, divide that by the Critical Damage. The lower this number is, the less it costs to apply Critical Damage to that slot. So if you’ve got full Soldiers armor but you want to start adding in Berserker, you’ll find that the best place to start with that is the Shoulders, Gloves, and Boots. Likewise, Exotic Accessories are cheaper per point than Rings.

Ascended gear changes the costs somewhat so you’ll have to look at that differently.

My personal favorite PvP burning build has evolved to:

10/25/0/5/30
Fiery Wrath, Inner Fire, Signet Mastery, Master of Consecrations, Supreme Justice, Permeating Wrath

Carrion Amulet/Jewel for condi/power/vit

Runes of the Forge for Toughness, burn duration, protection duration, and aoe burning plus a total of 15 seconds of protection when you drop below 50% health.

Great Sword and Staff, both with Sigil of Geomancy or Fire for some aoe to proc more burning.

Signet of Resolve, Signet of Judgement, Stand Your Ground, Purging Flames, Renewed Focus

This build has better sustain than I would have thought with lots of protection and signet of Judgement(underrated skill) some condi removal, a bit of healing from staff, two stun breaks on fairly low cooldown, stability etc etc…

Physical damage is good and crit chance is usually very high thanks to inner fire. No extra crit damage but you get almost guaranteed constant +20% damage mod from traits.

Burning is constant. Without might stacks, I burn for 622 per tick. You will burn everything around you all the time. I stack 1-3 seconds of burning every second on average. In a team fight with more enemies or lots of pets/clones burn time stacks up very very fast. When cleared, just keep attacking and they will simply continue to burn. If you can last 10 seconds in a fight, you will burn everyone for around 6k damage. 20 seconds = 12k. That may not sound like a lot, but remember you will be hitting hard with weapon skills too, and lots of retaliation to boot.

This needs to be bumped.

Sticky this one please.

Thank you so much for doing this Danicia.

i dont now how many times i asked the mods for a sticky. Finally you are back where it belongs.

Thx mods and Foofad.

Awe, thanks =] 2.0 is done, doing a proofing pass and re-checking numbers and then I’ll update it.

Cant wait for an update .-)

Not gonna lie, I’m actually completely distracted by a combination of school and Space Engineers right now. It’s still coming, I promise.