I don’t understand why it’s even a trait. If power guardians don’t have to trait for retaliation to scale off of power, why should condi guardians have to waste a trait slot on it? Retaliation should just be redesigned to always scale off of the sum of a guardians power and condition damage (perhaps with diminishing returns past a certain point, if sinister stats make it too powerful, for example). This would make retaliation useful for power guards, condi guards, and even celestial guardians.
And yeah, at the very least this trait should not have to compete with a grandmaster trait that every condi guardian would want. Frankly since it’s ONLY changing which stat retal scales off of, I believe it belongs on the adept level if it really has to be a trait… :/
I’m very disappointed with the Radiance grandmaster selection as there are now two traits for condition guardians and absolutely nothing for a zerker guardian. :/ I want to be able to use the Radiance line as a power guardian and not be forced to take a GM trait based around signets.
Didn’t realize this trait was bugged but it’s super disappointing in the first place. Most condi guardian builds have a decent amount of power anyways and this barely gives any damage since retaliation isn’t a huge source of damage.
Even if it did work it would need to scale incredibly well in order to be better then power scaling since you start out with 1000 power at base but with no + condition damage.
Personally I wish they would just get rid of this trait and create one that is actually useful.
I mean its not like guardians are not going to take power gear, especially in PvP because all the amulets without power also don’t have vitality which leaves you stuck with 11k health and able to be nuked easily.
Radiant Retaliation is a way that full-condi Guardians (yes, I meant to say that) like Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman can have a secondary source of damage other than Burning (Dragonhunters will also get access to Bleeding). It isn’t for hybrids. It actually encourages you to get as much Condi as you can because every point of Condi is worth 2 points of Power.
Without Radiant Retaliation: Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman will do 179 retal damage.
With Radiant Retal and 1000 Condi: 230
With Radiant Retal and 1700 Condi: 299
With Radiant Retal and 2300 Condi: 358 (doable with undead/food/crystals/sigil/signet)
With Radiant Retal and 2750 Condi: 402 (12 stacks of Might from Empower and 3 stacks from either F1 boon or Empowering Might.)
With Radiant Retal and 3000 Condi: 428 (in WvW it is common to stack 25 stacks of Might before a fight.)
How much better do you think the scaling should get?
Radiant Retaliation is a way that full-condi Guardians (yes, I meant to say that) like Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman can have a secondary source of damage other than Burning (Dragonhunters will also get access to Bleeding). It isn’t for hybrids. It actually encourages you to get as much Condi as you can because every point of Condi is worth 2 points of Power.
Anyways the trait doesn’t even work in the first place lol.
Without Radiant Retaliation: Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman will do 179 retal damage.
With Radiant Retal and 1000 Condi: 230
With Radiant Retal and 1700 Condi: 299
With Radiant Retal and 2300 Condi: 358 (doable with undead/food/crystals/sigil/signet)
With Radiant Retal and 2750 Condi: 402 (12 stacks of Might from Empower and 3 stacks from either F1 boon or Empowering Might.)
With Radiant Retal and 3000 Condi: 428 (in WvW it is common to stack 25 stacks of Might before a fight.)
How much better do you think the scaling should get?
Your math is a bit off there. Retaliation is 267 damage at 0 power investment (198+0.075*base power). The damage of retal with only base power isn’t very far behind conditions. Retaliation isn’t even a reliable damage source in the first place though and it’s competing with Amplified Wrath which is a much much better choice for a condition build.
Radiant Retaliation is a way that full-condi Guardians (yes, I meant to say that) like Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman can have a secondary source of damage other than Burning (Dragonhunters will also get access to Bleeding). It isn’t for hybrids. It actually encourages you to get as much Condi as you can because every point of Condi is worth 2 points of Power.
Without Radiant Retaliation: Dire/Rabid/Settler/Shaman will do 179 retal damage.
With Radiant Retal and 1000 Condi: 230
With Radiant Retal and 1700 Condi: 299
With Radiant Retal and 2300 Condi: 358 (doable with undead/food/crystals/sigil/signet)
With Radiant Retal and 2750 Condi: 402 (12 stacks of Might from Empower and 3 stacks from either F1 boon or Empowering Might.)
With Radiant Retal and 3000 Condi: 428 (in WvW it is common to stack 25 stacks of Might before a fight.)
How much better do you think the scaling should get?
I’m in the process of moving so I don’t have my main computer at the moment.
The last test I did (months ago), Radiant Retaliation was bugged and still scaled with Power. On Rabid gear, does retaliation damage actually increase when you add Signet of Wrath? Is it working as intended now?
I still can’t imagine why anyone would choose Rabid and Radiant Retaliation when we have little to no on crit condition effects. The build is simply inferior. AW and Carrion is better in several ways.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
My math is reduced 33% because: “In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33%.” I included that part.
No, Radiant Retaliation isn’t working. My math is showing what it is “supposed” to do based on the numbers it had before it stopped working. I tested it just this week after that patch to fix the weird WvW interdimensional shennanigans (if you don’t know what that was, a lot of people missed it… but apparently some people were wandering an alternate maps where walls were down and they could hear enemies but not see them, and rangers and their pets were in different maps… seeing a pet running around without a ranger is weird. It was weird.)
One reason to take Rabid is to take on-crit Might like Sigil of Strength or Empowering Might. If you are benefitting from both the Power and the Condi then it can be good. And maybe another crit-sigil like Torment, Blight, Earth, or Incapacitation… or Blood if you want some extra sustain).
My math is reduced 33% because: “In PvP and WvW, retaliation damage is reduced by 33%.” I included that part.
No, Radiant Retaliation isn’t working. My math is showing what it is “supposed” to do based on the numbers it had before it stopped working. I tested it just this week after that patch to fix the weird WvW interdimensional shennanigans (if you don’t know what that was, a lot of people missed it… but apparently some people were wandering an alternate maps where walls were down and they could hear enemies but not see them, and rangers and their pets were in different maps… seeing a pet running around without a ranger is weird. It was weird.)
One reason to take Rabid is to take on-crit Might like Sigil of Strength or Empowering Might. If you are benefitting from both the Power and the Condi then it can be good. And maybe another crit-sigil like Torment, Blight, Earth, or Incapacitation… or Blood if you want some extra sustain).
Rabid is really bad for condi guardian IMO. Carrion is probably the best. Vitality scales much better than toughness since it’s a separate survivability multiplier and you already have high base toughness as guardian. Power increases base skill damage and also scales retaliation without having to lose Amplified Wrath. Plus you get free 30% crit with the new traits anyways so on crit is viable with that. Most on crit stuff is outclassed by on weapon swap though I think.
“For the idea of the bout, in fact you have to see this build within a group or zerg
It is true that the burning of about 800 damage, and retaliation 300. It adds up to 1100 dmg per second (assuming that the enemy hits once per second).
BUT, it’s not 1100 damage on a single target, but 5, see as retaliation does not stop at 5 targets.
So potentially (and I emphasize the word ^^), it’s not the 1k dmg per second, but the 5-6k.”
The thread go on to say that a Burn and Retaliation build is “strange” and its effectiveness is uncertain. But people do in fact use a burn-retaliation build… even if it’s a handful of people. Again, this was gathered from the French forums.
It makes me look at Radiant Retaliation a little differently. Not the fact that Retaliation could offer huge damage in a zerg, but people actually use that build type on a burn guard.
TL;DR: Retaliation Burn builds may be a thing to some people but the trait is still bugged in its current itteration.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
I wanted to post what Fr forums are saying as well
“For the idea of the bout, in fact you have to see this build within a group or zerg
It is true that the burning of about 800 damage, and retaliation 300. It adds up to 1100 dmg per second (assuming that the enemy hits once per second).
BUT, it’s not 1100 damage on a single target, but 5, see as retaliation does not stop at 5 targets.
So potentially (and I emphasize the word ^^), it’s not the 1k dmg per second, but the 5-6k.”
The thread go on to say that a Burn and Retaliation build is “strange” and its effectiveness is uncertain. But people do in fact use a burn-retaliation build… even if it’s a handful of people. Again, this was gathered from the French forums.
It makes me look at Radiant Retaliation a little differently. Not the fact that Retaliation could offer huge damage in a zerg, but people actually use that build type on a burn guard.
TL;DR: People actually use Radiant Retaliation but it’s still bugged in its current itteration.
People use retaliation yes because you get a bunch of it for free in Virtues. People don’t use Radiant Retaliation since it actually does nothing and the best stat combo for burn guardians is Carrion anyways.
I wanted to post what Fr forums are saying as well
“For the idea of the bout, in fact you have to see this build within a group or zerg
It is true that the burning of about 800 damage, and retaliation 300. It adds up to 1100 dmg per second (assuming that the enemy hits once per second).
BUT, it’s not 1100 damage on a single target, but 5, see as retaliation does not stop at 5 targets.
So potentially (and I emphasize the word ^^), it’s not the 1k dmg per second, but the 5-6k.”
The thread go on to say that a Burn and Retaliation build is “strange” and its effectiveness is uncertain. But people do in fact use a burn-retaliation build… even if it’s a handful of people. Again, this was gathered from the French forums.
It makes me look at Radiant Retaliation a little differently. Not the fact that Retaliation could offer huge damage in a zerg, but people actually use that build type on a burn guard.
TL;DR: People actually use Radiant Retaliation but it’s still bugged in its current itteration.
People use retaliation yes because you get a bunch of it for free in Virtues. People don’t use Radiant Retaliation since it actually does nothing and the best stat combo for burn guardians is Carrion anyways.
Right. What I meant was, it’s why Anet kept the trait at all. People would use it for the above reasons IF it wasn’t bugged.
I agree that Carrion is better in a lot of ways. I also agree that using Whirling Wrath on a full Retaliation team hurts like hell. RR just needs to be fixed for people who want higher group retaliation damage.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
They’re right, Retaliation isn’t something you consider just in terms of single-target dps numbers. People tend to think that way because on their screen they see the Retaliation damage they do… they don’t see all the Retaliation damage they caused by granting it to allies.
A thief backstabs you for 10k… you hit him for 350. A ranger Rapid Fires you for 7000… you hit him back for 3500. A soldier Engi flamethrowers you for 3k… you hit him back for more than 3k. Retaliation can do 3.5% incoming damage… 50% incoming damage… or over 100% incoming damage…
Now take all of those wildy varying damage percentages… and consider them on not only yourself, but on the allies you’ve buffed and every attack that lands on every one of them. The guy spamming AoE on your entire group could be taking 1750 per pulse from multiple pulsing attacks active at the same time. The actual damage output of a Retaliation skill/trait can be massive when the ground is covered in red-circles.
Radiant Retaliation is very punishing to certain attacks and very lenient towards others, but built right it will be something people will HATE to fight against.
They’re right, Retaliation isn’t something you consider just in terms of single-target dps numbers. People tend to think that way because on their screen they see the Retaliation damage they do… they don’t see all the Retaliation damage they caused by granting it to allies.
A thief backstabs you for 10k… you hit him for 350. A ranger Rapid Fires you for 7000… you hit him back for 3500. A soldier Engi flamethrowers you for 3k… you hit him back for more than 3k. Retaliation can do 3.5% incoming damage… 50% incoming damage… or over 100% incoming damage…
Now take all of those wildy varying damage percentages… and consider them on not only yourself, but on the allies you’ve buffed and every attack that lands on every one of them. The guy spamming AoE on your entire group could be taking 1750 per pulse from multiple pulsing attacks active at the same time. The actual damage output of a Retaliation skill/trait can be massive when the ground is covered in red-circles.
Radiant Retaliation is very punishing to certain attacks and very lenient towards others, but built right it will be something people will HATE to fight against.
The problem here is the competition. 15% burning damage and burn on block is much better considering that Carrion is the best stat for condi guardian anyways so your retaliation will already be pretty good.
Plus you want to get hit as little as possible. Dodge+Aegis+RF is a lot of time where retaliation is completely useless but burning puts in massive work.
This would only be good for supports in WvW and even then it’s still iffy considering it’s competing with the new signet trait and the new signet elite is going to be amazing in WvW. Also condi damage isn’t a great support stat.
Ready Up Episode 35 is up on youtube now which provides some more context to the patch notes we were given. It is less than 6 hours long.
This is what Karl had to say about Radiant Retaliation (5 hours 12 minutes in) “And then the last but not least Radiant Retaliation
Um, this is to help those who like to run more Condition style builds.
I’d say this is more of a Rabid build, or even it does pretty good damage if you have a Carrion amulet equipped, as well in PvP. Or that style of build overall.
Its always… and from… um…
The condition damage ticks get pretty high I gotta say."
I’m curious if they buffed Retaliation damage on Radiant Retaliation. Perma retaliation is back in the form of Signets. For those who don’t remember, way back when, we used to have higher retal damage and a near perma duration.
Could it be… do we have a viable Signet – Retal – burn build? I imagine it’ll only be useful in WvW or Zerg scenarios.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
Switch the trait with shattered Aegis and give the latter aegis on crit with a 10 sec cooldown. The trait makes no sense in radience except for the name
From what I heard, one of the preview streamers tried Radiant Retal against Svanir while wearing Carrion. He hit for 298 and declared it worthless. Then he went back to showing off 5-7k damage condi tics.
298 with the old formula would mean he had ~1663 condition damage which is plausible.
Radiant Retaliation is getting fixed but has not been changed.
I saw the section of video where he tested Radiant Retaliation. The damage returned was in line with the known pvp radiant retal damage formula, off by only a couple points.
He did not have nice things to say even though it was a 30% improvement in Retal Damage over regular retal. If he had been wearing Rabid or Dire, it would have been more than a 60% improvement over his regular retal.
