Guild Wars 2

It currently adds exactly ZERO damage, which for a Grandmaster damage trait is completely insane. Radiant Retaliation is completely broken, it does not change your retaliation damage at all even if you invest heavily in Condition Damage.

I pointed out this bug last year:

• In-game
• In the Bug Forum (where it got 0 replies)
• In the Known Issues 2014 sticky
• In a couple Condition Damage threads

I never did create a specific Guardian thread about it, so now is your chance to discuss how your life has suffered not being able to use this trait, and how you would feel if your favorite trait was completely unusable for months. You can talk about how all the attempts to make a successful Condi Damage guard have been thwarted by not being able to use Retaliation as Condition Damage. By the way, how long do you think Read the Wind could be completely broken before all the screaming pew-pew rangers got it hot-fixed?

Found this out awhile ago myself. I know ANet tend to ignore bugs, but this one seems kind of significant considering that the trait literally doesn’t work at all.

If you haven’t already done so head into Obsidian Sanctum, clear logs, duel someone, and compare.

Tested it in a level 80 PvE area and in Heart of the Mists, can confirm. Radiant Retaliation is simply not functioning, rather strange as it worked when it was first introduced; it’s supposed to calculate retaliation damage as 198 + (0.15 * Condition Damage) with the trait.
In any case I’ve added a bug tag to the wiki entry.

What’s your Power? I think when they previewed RR, it used the larger of the two.

When I tested it in PvE I had 2001 Power (~348) and 300 Condition Damage (~243). Testing it caused 350 damage with and without the trait.
In sPvP, where there is an additional 33% reduction, I had 1576 Power (~211) and 1407 Condition Damage (~273). Testing it caused 212 damage with and without the trait.

The trait worked when it was first introduced, I remember it being somewhat underwhelming because I had high expectations and then went to figure out the formula and documented it on the wiki.

PurebladeProductions.4875:

The trait worked when it was first introduced, I remember it being somewhat underwhelming because I had high expectations and then went to figure out the formula and documented it on the wiki.

Everyone had high expectations for it thinking it would kick our lack of condition play in the rear. Sadly, it missed.

The only reason to take Radiant Retaliation is if you are putting out a ton of Retal and are a FULL Condition Damage build, and I ran a couple variations based on that exact premise.

Even with that premise Radiant Retaliation doesn’t offer enough for its investment.

A significantly high uptime of Retaliation already requires certain traits and utilities which generally limits the appeal of Radiant Retaliation for most trait combinations. Even worse, why would you pick Radiant Retaliation if you could pull of the same Retaliation damage in a power build?

Even if you went for it, you won’t have enough points/utility slots left to ensure your survivability which is crucial to actually utilizing Retaliation as a major damage source to begin with.

• Radiant Retaliation should be way more efficient than power based Retaliation
• Radiant Retaliation should offer an additional functionality (e.g. proc Retaliation when being hit like Spiked Armor or proccing pbae Burning when Retaliation expires). Otherwise it would just not pay off even when the efficiency was increased.

Xaylin.1860:

Even with that premise Radiant Retaliation doesn’t offer enough for its investment.

A significantly high uptime of Retaliation already requires certain traits and utilities which generally limits the appeal of Radiant Retaliation for most trait combinations. Even worse, why would you pick Radiant Retaliation if you could pull of the same Retaliation damage in a power build?

Even if you went for it, you won’t have enough points/utility slots left to ensure your survivability which is crucial to actually utilizing Retaliation as a major damage source to begin with.

• Radiant Retaliation should be way more efficient than power based Retaliation
• Radiant Retaliation should offer an additional functionality (e.g. proc Retaliation when being hit like Spiked Armor or proccing pbae Burning when Retaliation expires). Otherwise it would just not pay off even when the efficiency was increased.

I agree with this.

Even if it did work properly, coming up with a viable build isn’t, due to the trait lines. It requires you to dump six into Radiance. After that you need at least three into Virtues for Virtue of Retribution. You would also be forced to take shouts like SYG and SYS. So the only build that could be somewhat viable would be 0/6/0/4/4 or 0/6/0/2/6. However due to the limited amounts of amulets in pvp, nothing would really work, maybe Settlers. Of course in WvW it would fair better since you can customize your stats.

Not sure who to thank (sPvP player base or game design) but retaliation was toned down just about a year ago to date – but that was the borderland bug fix. Then what, another year earlier it was butchered?

I can somewhat see the change in WvW due to “possible” number of players. However, in sPvP it is 5 v 5…

You guys are making it sound like we have to build a very specific way to get Retaliation uptime, and I think you are over-emphasizing Virtue of Retribution which is Self-Only. To get the most out of Retal, you want to use it as a group buff.

How to get Retaliation:

Option 1: Greatsword Symbol of Wrath can grant AoE Retaliation
Default duration about 5s, but can be increased to 11s or more.
Additional self-retaliation is gained from using the Leap Finisher.

Option 2: Zealot’s Speed minor trait can grant AoE Retaliation:
Default duration is about 10s if you stay within the symbol. Can be increased to 20+ seconds with traits and food.

Option 3: Hammer Mighty Blow can grant AoE Retaliation
Default duration is 3s. Can be increased to about 5.5s. There will be a noticeable pause between applications of Retaliation (unless you go nuts and take both 2h speed and longer lasting symbols).

Option 4: Virtue of Retribution
Virtues grant you (just you) Retaliation, can trigger very often.

Option 5: Utility Skills

• Stand your ground: 5s default duration AoE Retal (paired with Stability) can be increased to about 9.5s.
• Signet of Judgement: 3s default duration AoE Retal (paired with Weakness) can be increased to about 5.5s.
• Save Yourselves: 10s default duration self-Retal, about 18s traited with food

Option 6: Elite Skill Tome of Wrath grants a long Retaliation.

Option 7: Grab Bag
Leap combos, Retal on Aegis, Retal on Heal, Retal on Disable, Confusion converted to Retaliation, Superior Sigil of Luck, Superior Rune of Sanctuary, Superior Rune of Radiance for Light Aura on Heal and longer Light Auras.

^ You forgot the underated Wrathful Spirits: Grants retaliation when Aegis ends. Works with your team if you apply Aegis.

Prepatch, Radiant Retaliation doesn’t buff retaliation much at all… spending points for more retaliation damage to match 2k power users, is a complete waste of traits… At least thats how it was before patch…

Change “Radiant Retaliation” to turn Retaliation into physical damage. F1 Virtue of Justice just got a whole lot sweeter

" Even worse, why would you pick Radiant Retaliation if you could pull off the same Retaliation damage in a power build?"

“spending points for more retaliation damage to match 2k power users, is a complete waste of traits…”

At lower stat numbers, the Condition Damage scaling boost is not very noticeable:
In PvP, the stats remain relatively tame. A Condi Guardian with Radiant Retal is going to do maybe 10% more Retal damage than a Power Guardian. But that Condi Guardian that traits Radiant Retaliation may do 52% more retal damage than a Condi Guardian that doesn’t trait Radiant Retal.

The Condition Damage scaling is more noticeable when stats get boosted:
In WvW with food, guard stacks, sigil stacks, bloodlust, and getting 25 stacks of Might before pushes, the Condi Guardian can do 33% more retal damage than the Power Guardian. And the Condi Guardian who has to decide whether to trait Radiant Retal or not should know that with full stacks and might in WvW, this trait nearly doubles the amount of damage his retal does (if it ever gets fixed).

The question is not, “Should my Retaliation build be Power or Condi?” The question is, “Retaliation is something the Guardian has in abundance, should Condition Damage Guardians be able to utilize it?” And the answer is Yes, we need something in addition to Burning.

misterdevious.6482:

The question is not, “Should my Retaliation build be Power or Condi?” The question is, “Retaliation is something the Guardian has in abundance, should Condition Damage Guardians be able to utilize it?” And the answer is Yes, we need something in addition to Burning.

That’s not really what I’ve been discussing. Personally, I really like the idea of Radiant Retaliation. So my answer would also be “Yes, we need something in addition to Burning.” But my question is: Does Radiant Retaliation provide enough to be worth its investment?

There is a huge difference between a vaste access to Retaliation and having an efficient amount of Retaliation uptime. Most of the traits, skills and utilities are underwhelming. Feel free to prove me wrong. As a result, you are forced to pile up several traits, skills and utilities which limits build diversity and results in rather low survivability when compared to other condition builds. Additionally, I’d question the general usability of many Retaliation sources. Even more so when it is a major damage source. Or have you seen any power “Retaliation Guards” running around? And I’m not talking about zergingin WvW here.

If Radiant Retaliation is supposed to replace an active damaging condition it should be able to do so at the moment it is picked without jumping through additional hoops. It doesn’t matter that Radiant Retaliation could do 53% more damage in a condi build than common Retaliation. Because it won’t make up for the investment. And this is the point where it does no longer matter, that Radiant Retaliation enables condi Guardians to use it.

With other words: I do like the idea of Radiant Retaliation. I also believe that you can make the trait itself work. But I surely don’t believe that Radiant Retaliation is worth the investment.

I think this is a moot point outside the trait being broken, if it is. I mean outside our discussion here has any of the developers said anything? Let us say it is working, how many condition based Guardians do you see running around? And even so with this fixed do you expect to see more?

I don’t. Not much survivability and other classes still do the job better.

Crapgame.6519:

I think this is a moot point outside the trait being broken, if it is. I mean outside our discussion here has any of the developers said anything? Let us say it is working, how many condition based Guardians do you see running around? And even so with this fixed do you expect to see more?

I don’t. Not much survivability and other classes still do the job better.

The point is the trait is either not working at all, or it is working, but unnoticeably so. If it’s the latter then power builds do retaliation better… so there’s no reason to trait for it.
I rather not have a broken grand master trait, regardless if it ever gets utilized.

Saiyan.1704:

Crapgame.6519:

I think this is a moot point outside the trait being broken, if it is. I mean outside our discussion here has any of the developers said anything? Let us say it is working, how many condition based Guardians do you see running around? And even so with this fixed do you expect to see more?

I don’t. Not much survivability and other classes still do the job better.

The point is the trait is either not working at all, or it is working, but unnoticeably so. If it’s the latter then power builds do retaliation better… so there’s no reason to trait for it.
I rather not have a broken grand master trait, regardless if it ever gets utilized.

Oh, I agree regarding the broken part 100%. Just odd that if it truly has been around for a while then one would think A.net would admit or say something. Especially since the last patch changed and/or touched traits.

Saiyan.1704:

The point is the trait is either not working at all, or it is working, but unnoticeably so. If it’s the latter then power builds do retaliation better… so there’s no reason to trait for it.
I rather not have a broken grand master trait, regardless if it ever gets utilized.

You’re right about that. However, it is a good time to discuss its general usability if they have to work on the trait anyway. Maybe a dev will read the thread. In most cases we will never know. Regardless, while many player suggestions won’t make it into the game, I choose to believe that the devs take our opinions into consideration as long as they’re based on reasonable arguments.

Still Broken.

Radiant Retaliation has been completely broken for about 4 months. In comparison, Unholy Sanctuary was partially bugged and got fixed in about 28 hours.

The most recent bug forum thread about Radiant Retaliation: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Guardian-Grandmaster-Trait-Radiant-Retaliation-still-bugged/first#post4892438

Even if it worked at a noticable level It really shouldn’t be a trait anyway.

It should be a base line effect for everyone who has a condition damage of more then 1/2 their power.

Guardians should have a real grand master trait that actually adds something useful.

That trait in itself was pointless even if it was working, condition guardian just can’t become a thing unless they add more condition application to the class.

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

Nikaido.3457:

That trait in itself was pointless even if it was working, condition guardian just can’t become a thing unless they add more condition application to the class.

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

We found it!!! Someone else found a proof of how they listen to forums but won’t apply it to the game and rather sell it. I am still hoping LB is condi with skills like Blinding Blade and decent healing,let’s see how benevolent they are.

Sagat.3285:

Nikaido.3457:

That trait in itself was pointless even if it was working, condition guardian just can’t become a thing unless they add more condition application to the class.

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

We found it!!! Someone else found a proof of how they listen to forums but won’t apply it to the game and rather sell it. I am still hoping LB is condi with skills like Blinding Blade and decent healing,let’s see how benevolent they are.

I think LB is going to have slow auto attacks, who’s damage scales will be equivalent to warriors. With the exception of warriors burst F1 skill and his huge fire burning skill… we’ll be leaning on support; probably some type of regen or protection, to go with our damage. I think we’re getting 1 fire skill.
Our bow’s fire wont outdamage a warrior’s fire skills unless it’s some type of concecration ground effect and we can immobilize people on it.

Nikaido.3457:

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

A demonic-themed build that inflicts conditions on itself and then manipulates and spreads them? Certainly doesn’t sound like what a condition guardian should be to me.

If Radiant Retaliation had better scaling (and actually worked), I think it could be interesting for a possible condition guardian build.

It has been tried but still falls short. It isn’t that the trait doesn’t sound entertaining as it is but it is broke and doesn’t do jack in WvW meta. At least when I tried it anyway.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Nikaido.3457:

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

A demonic-themed build that inflicts conditions on itself and then manipulates and spreads them? Certainly doesn’t sound like what a condition guardian should be to me.

You’re talking about theme/lore related things, I’m talking about gameplay and combat mechanics.

Revenant is a class that brings a lot of similar utilities, such as reflection, group stability, blast finishers, group condition removal and control/CC. It literally fits all the roles a guardian would in a party while being condition focused. In terms of role in a group it’s taking what a condition guardian would if condition guardian actually existed (it doesn’t).

The idea of a burn/condition focused guardian will look even more ridiculous once this expac hits the market.

Nikaido.3457:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Nikaido.3457:

Revenant looks like it’s going to be what condition guardian should have been.

A demonic-themed build that inflicts conditions on itself and then manipulates and spreads them? Certainly doesn’t sound like what a condition guardian should be to me.

You’re talking about theme/lore related things, I’m talking about gameplay and combat mechanics.

Revenant is a class that brings a lot of similar utilities, such as reflection, group stability, blast finishers, group condition removal and control/CC. It literally fits all the roles a guardian would in a party while being condition focused. In terms of role in a group it’s taking what a condition guardian would if condition guardian actually existed (it doesn’t).

The idea of a burn/condition focused guardian will look even more ridiculous once this expac hits the market.

I’m talking about both. Revenants’ reflection is gained from their hammer, which condition revenants won’t be using (since it’s a purely power-based weapon). Stability and control are gained from Jalis, which isn’t necessarily what condition revenants will be using either, and blast finishers aren’t unique to guardians (compared to engis and eles, they’re not even that good at blasting either). I have to admit that Pain Absorption is fairly guardian-like, however, directly harming themselves and then spreading their own conditions to enemies doesn’t sound guardian-like in the slightest.

If you’re talking about a revenant using Jalis/Mallyx with a hammer, that sounds much more like a primary tank, secondary control/support than a condition-user. In such a build, Mallyx would likely be used mainly for cleansing or tanking against conditions rather than applying them.

There are countless little tweaks that could make the trait more attractive or more effective, but what if we push the trait further into condition territory? Looking at Terror… that trait takes a condition and turns it into a damaging condition (with unique damage icon), perhaps something similar could be done with Radiant Retaliation.

Radiant Retaliation: Retaliation damage scales from condition damage instead of power. Retaliation damages any enemy with an active condition on you.

While Retaliation is active, anyone that has at least one active condition on you will take Retal damage once per second. This would make Radiant Retaliation feel like a new damaging condition, and not just a slight tweak to an existing boon. The fact that enemies would be taking damage over time that couldn’t be removed by condition removal could be quite significant.

misterdevious.6482:

Radiant Retaliation: Retaliation damage scales from condition damage instead of power. Retaliation damages any enemy with an active condition on you.

okay so if the formular 198 + (0.15 * Condition Damage) would actually work
and we assume 1500 condi damage, we are talking about 423 retal damage per second per condition. so 7 condis from one necro (signet of spite) would deal 2.961 dps unavoidable damage over 10 seconds. in addition to any other hits he lands.

Could be either intersting. In Combo with SYS and the guards other abilities this could turn out pretty gamebreaking for some opposing builds to an extend far beyond frustration. maybe build in a range of 900.

In PvP/WvW the Retaliation damage is reduced 33%.

Even with that, it does sound overpowered the way you described. I was thinking it would not be a tic of damage “per condition” but simply damaging each enemy once per second if they have at least one condition on you while you still have Retaliation. 1 condition or 5, it wouldn’t matter. My thinking was not to make it a massive burst, but to make it simply a constant damage, which would be applied to anyone who put 1 or more conditions on you.

Of course, if they did want it to do significantly more damage, it could apply to each of the damaging conditions separately, but I still think that would be overpowered.

I wouldn’t put a range restriction on it, one advantage of Retaliation is that it affects anyone that hits you, regardless of range.