Guild Wars 2

So, tested in pvp with full condi build, ammy and rune set. Difference was about 40 more damage per tick than with full power build without the trait. What was the point of this trait again?

Edit: wasn’t full power build, was same build with carrion ammy and condi runes. Honestly not sure that the damage scaling is any different whatsoever.

I guess the point was to force a marriage between condition damage gear on retalitation builds … clearly a terrible idea.

Obtena.7952:

I guess the point was to force a marriage between condition damage gear on retalitation builds … clearly a terrible idea.

I’d use it if I was running a condition build with a 2h weapon.

Mind if I ask what your set up was? I was going to try this has well but I’m thinking we may be using similar set-ups. I was using carrion with Balthazar / flame legion runes and got around 1400 condition damage.

The problem with this set up from when I ran it before was the 2200 armor You get eaten alive. sword/focus/greatsword. I also tried scepter/shield and torch.

Crapgame.6519:

Mind if I ask what your set up was? I was going to try this has well but I’m thinking we may be using similar set-ups. I was using carrion with Balthazar / flame legion runes and got around 1400 condition damage.

The problem with this set up from when I ran it before was the 2200 armor You get eaten alive. sword/focus/greatsword. I also tried scepter/shield and torch.

Exact same setup. With power build the damage difference almost vanishes. All this 30 point grand master trait does is lower your retaliation damage unless you are deeply invested into condi damage, and then it brings it back to normal. They should rename it ‘Nerf Yourself’.

I notice it did less because you lose alot of might trying to get it

It also has really, really bad synergy with Tome of Wrath for those who use it, since that applies perma-retaliation but only multiplies your power.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Crapgame.6519:

Mind if I ask what your set up was? I was going to try this has well but I’m thinking we may be using similar set-ups. I was using carrion with Balthazar / flame legion runes and got around 1400 condition damage.

The problem with this set up from when I ran it before was the 2200 armor You get eaten alive. sword/focus/greatsword. I also tried scepter/shield and torch.

Exact same setup. With power build the damage difference almost vanishes. All this 30 point grand master trait does is lower your retaliation damage unless you are deeply invested into condi damage, and then it brings it back to normal. They should rename it ‘Nerf Yourself’.

Anet time to revise retaliation value!

I thought this trait had decent potential if Anet put the scaling in a place where investing in condi-damage meant you did a ton of retaliation damage but alas it’s not the case.

Guess we should leave it alone and wait and see if it gets buffed next patch to be decent.

Probably have a better chance of hell freezing over or winning the lottery.

Arena Net doesn’t buff Guardians. Just not in the cards we have been delt.

Obtena.7952:

I guess the point was to force a marriage between condition damage gear on retalitation builds … clearly a terrible idea.

So back to this new master trait. Anyone trying to make it work?

I’m trying a 6/6/2/0/0 at the moment but not having much luck on this stupid thing. GS/Mace/Torch. I’ve also tried scepter/shield. How are they expecting you to play this build.

I’m a tick over 1400 condition damage with food for duration. It is either broke, a gimmick build, or like you said – A TERRIBLE IDEA!

I’m going to eventually test some burning stuff but this new trait isn’t part of that test. I really can’t see the value in taking a C list stat and pairing it with a B list boon to provide crap damage in a very limited situation as a GM trait … nonsense comes to mind as the word I’m looking for ….

… maybe the devs should spend less time making jokes in their livestreams and work a little more on providing less trashy content.

Im so glad to see they botched this trait like I expected they would… /sarcasm.

The only way they could have made this work was to make it have a significant difference in damage compared to power since it was something power build ALREADY HAD. To make it even viable it would have to be so much of a change to make up for the loss of damage from going to power to a burning build… And they didn’t even come close.

Having the trait pairs the way they are right now is really annoying, to do the new trait you have to invest in the power/condi duration line. even tho it is clearly a condition damage trait.

power doesn’t help condition damage just like precision doesn’t help condition damage

having these traits paired up is just wonky….I mean precision and condition damage? really?

anyways…it’s just odd.

but someday I know things will get more normal.

Well has I noted above i tried several different builds and never once felt like I accomplished anything. In fact, I can’t even tell if the trait is working. I’ll be the first to admit I am clueless in setting up a new build but I do know it didn’t feel right. I made a few more changes and managed to get condition damage over 1,500 but still nothing earth shattering.

It did not feel has smooth has my triple meditation DPS roaming build. It didn’t have any speed. No staff and I had mix rune so no traveler. Defenses probably my fault since I’m used to my dps build but it seemed I would go down much quicker When I was running with a trio (2 x Mesmer and I) it was hit or miss. Mace / Torch / GS was my last weapon set with fire/smoldering sigils.

I’m not sure how you guys are testing. Is it in spvp or pve/wvw? In spvp the difference between scaling with power vs condition isn’t very apparent. In fact, I’m not even sure if it properly works???

In pve I tested. With a full zerker set and 2396 power, retaliation hits for around 386 per hit. Using a rabid set, veggie pizza and a tuning crystal and having 1659 condition dmg, retaliation hits for 456per hit. From my observation, radiant retaliation does make ret better with condition damage than power.

I suspect that the retaliation damage cap in pvp has something to do with the scaling not appearing to be better.

Sorry, I’m running it out in WvW. It would probably be cheaper for me to try in sPvP though /rollseyes.

My armor is Carrion and I’m using the same food and crystal has you mentioned. I’ve not tried using rabid armor but maybe if I tried to mix it in it would help buff up my weak armor which is at 2200 give or take using all carrion.

Aza.2105:

I’m not sure how you guys are testing. Is it in spvp or pve/wvw? In spvp the difference between scaling with power vs condition isn’t very apparent. In fact, I’m not even sure if it properly works???

In pve I tested. With a full zerker set and 2396 power, retaliation hits for around 386 per hit. Using a rabid set, veggie pizza and a tuning crystal and having 1659 condition dmg, retaliation hits for 456per hit. From my observation, radiant retaliation does make ret better with condition damage than power.

I suspect that the retaliation damage cap in pvp has something to do with the scaling not appearing to be better.

Retal is nerfed is in WWW also just like PvP. Just in PVE it isn’t.

In what way? I know they changed it a while back but to what? The tool tip just says scales so what is it capped at?

Seems rather dumb if so because it is a master trait /boggle

Blasino.3128:

Retal is nerfed is in WWW also just like PvP. Just in PVE it isn’t.

Yeah I see, I totally forgot about that. Radiant Retaliations scaling in spvp/wvw is horrible. The only way it can be good is if they make it so Radiant Retaliation removes the damage cap.

While it scales good in pve, ret isn’t a great boon for pve.

Crapgame.6519:

In what way? I know they changed it a while back but to what? The tool tip just says scales so what is it capped at?

Seems rather dumb if so because it is a master trait /boggle

In PVP and WvW retaliation damage is reduced by 33%

From the numbers I got testing in sPvP, the formula is:
214 + 0.15(Condition Damage) instead of 198.45 + 0.075(Power)

This trait is really in an awkward spot, since you will want to make more of a condi bunker build with this trait, but have to give up one of the other trait lines that actually make bunkers good. You also will have to give up some traits or weapons that give you retal or burning. You will need about 1000 Condition Damage just to break even with retal damage you would get from an average Power build. If you go for a massive amount of Condi Damage (2000), your retal will hit for over 500 though.

I don’t think it’s really worth a build.

It will hit for 500 in pve. In pvp/wvw (where the boon is actually useful) good luck reaching 300. This trait has replaced kindled zeal as new worst trait ever.

I didn’t even think that was possible… 0.o

Zinrae.3769:

From the numbers I got testing in sPvP, the formula is:
214 + 0.15(Condition Damage) instead of 198.45 + 0.075(Power)

This can’t be right. If you are testing against npcs in the spvp lobby then this is why you came up with this. From what I see, the reduction only applies when you are in actual pvp or on a wvw map.

In other words the damage is much lower than what your formula shows. Even with 1845 condition dmg, retaliation only hits for 315.

For some reason they thought that investing in radiance line was for condition damage.

They could have done something sane like add 20% of condition damage to current power for retaliation. It wouldn’t have been good anyways, but still…

This trait should have been merged with the zeal GM trait.

ArchonWing, have you lost yer mind? Merged with kindled trait is going to make it so overpower that warrior might actually start rerolling! roll eyes

So what is the intent for use or in what meta?

Would this even be used in PvE? I don’t PvE much and when I do I just go full DPS/Zerk in my limited play. I don’t think I’d like to be hit for something to work.

But in PvP / WvW it seems like it would be a good source of damage especially in WvW when crap is flying everywhere. But that is why this was adjusted to begin with. So thanks Arena Net for a stupid worthless trait. Can I get a refund?

Oh – that is probably why they offer free re-trait

No refund for you good sir, but we are offering a glory boosters if you insist^.^

Crapgame.6519:

So what is the intent for use or in what meta?

Would this even be used in PvE? I don’t PvE much and when I do I just go full DPS/Zerk in my limited play. I don’t think I’d like to be hit for something to work.

But in PvP / WvW it seems like it would be a good source of damage especially in WvW when crap is flying everywhere. But that is why this was adjusted to begin with. So thanks Arena Net for a stupid worthless trait. Can I get a refund?

Oh – that is probably why they offer free re-trait

My guess is they may have wanted retaliation to be a surrogate condition. In other words in addition to burning, enemies would have to deal with being hit with high retaliation damage too. I don’t think they took into consideration how the retaliation damage cap nullifies radiant retaliation. IF the damage cap was gone, then the trait would actually be good.

As it stands it has no use in pve and no use in pvp.

xFx.3247:

ArchonWing, have you lost yer mind? Merged with kindled trait is going to make it so overpower that warrior might actually start rerolling! roll eyes

Let’s be honest.

I could replace the 30 zeal slot with free cake, and still nobody would take it.

Aza.2105:

Crapgame.6519:

So what is the intent for use or in what meta?

Would this even be used in PvE? I don’t PvE much and when I do I just go full DPS/Zerk in my limited play. I don’t think I’d like to be hit for something to work.

But in PvP / WvW it seems like it would be a good source of damage especially in WvW when crap is flying everywhere. But that is why this was adjusted to begin with. So thanks Arena Net for a stupid worthless trait. Can I get a refund?

Oh – that is probably why they offer free re-trait

My guess is they may have wanted retaliation to be a surrogate condition. In other words in addition to burning, enemies would have to deal with being hit with high retaliation damage too. I don’t think they took into consideration how the retaliation damage cap nullifies radiant retaliation. IF the damage cap was gone, then the trait would actually be good.

As it stands it has no use in pve and no use in pvp.

Thanks for the feedback. That makes sense and now I’ll probably stop trying to make it work. I guess in a big group of people with multiple guardians it could work but that isn’t how I play. And I really don’t PvE so that pretty much seals the deal for me

Appreciate the discussion folds. And ArchonWing, I like cake so that trait would be fine with me At least I’d know what I was getting.

Retaliation is actually good against flamethrowers stuff in PvE. But the trait is just bad^.^

Mightymealworm.8409:

So, tested in pvp with full condi build, ammy and rune set. Difference was about 40 more damage per tick than with full power build without the trait. What was the point of this trait again?

Edit: wasn’t full power build, was same build with carrion ammy and condi runes. Honestly not sure that the damage scaling is any different whatsoever.

Just checked it out and it does 40% to 50% more damage. And with might stacking, 8 -10 stacks can take it up to 500 per tick.

That’s a lot of damage if you ask me.

500 per tick does hurt. Is that in PvP or WvW, Dirame? Remember that the damage is reduced by 33% in PvP and WvW. How much condi damage do you have?

Retal test, you can see how high it can get in PvP with 24 might stacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUbJi7Qtm0

xFireize.6318:

500 per tick does hurt. Is that in PvP or WvW, Dirame? Remember that the damage is reduced by 33% in PvP and WvW. How much condi damage do you have?

It was in SPvP; Without might stacks 1577. With 10 might stacks, it’s 1927 or thereabouts.

In WvW, you can probably get that to over 600 retal damage per tick.

EDIT: AH WvW has a retal cap. Nevermind that.

Interesting, it might be a step closer to a condi build of some sorts. You can’t clense retal so that is a plus (boon strip sure). At least this trait is in the radiance line which is a little more useful then zeal.

I rather want a Spirit Weapon Grandmaster traint in virtues that makes our Spirit Weapons permanent than having this conidtion one.

Dirame.8521:

Retal test, you can see how high it can get in PvP with 24 might stacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUbJi7Qtm0

xFireize.6318:

500 per tick does hurt. Is that in PvP or WvW, Dirame? Remember that the damage is reduced by 33% in PvP and WvW. How much condi damage do you have?

It was in SPvP; Without might stacks 1577. With 10 might stacks, it’s 1927 or thereabouts.

In WvW, you can probably get that to over 600 retal damage per tick.

EDIT: AH WvW has a retal cap. Nevermind that.

The spvp lobby does not have the retal cap. So that is why you were seeing big numbers. As soon as you get into a spvp match your ret will hit for around 271 or so with that amount of condition damage. And a bit over 315 per tick if you manage to get to 1927

The problem is that the Guardian is always getting useless things and not being corrected which is useless (utility, traits, etc.). I’m not asking for buffs, but for things that have utility. The Guardian is the class that has more useless stuff and are getting more and more useless things…

I know, but at least they are trying to give us a condi build. The idea is interesting, but not implemented in the best way.

We can only hope they improve things.

Blasino.3128:

I know, but at least they are trying to give us a condi build. The idea is interesting, but not implemented in the best way.

We can only hope they improve things.

There are other things they could “try”. Conditions are not one though. I actually forgot they made it a PvE/WvW split coefficient so was actually looking forward to it. I tried it several times out in WvW and just never saw much use out of it.

I’ll try again over the weekend in larger groups but for a solo or duo tandem camp or tower flipping pair it isn’t viable at all.

Aza.2105:

I suspect that the retaliation damage cap in pvp has something to do with the scaling not appearing to be better.

It’s not a cap, it’s a direct percentage reduction.

Still, it could be 200 more damage and it’d still be no good; nobody with 30 in Radiance stacking Condition Damage has the survivability to make it useful.

Maybe if it gave ADDITIONAL retal damage based on condi dam plus the scaling from power; rather than rescaling from condi alone.

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

Blasino.3128:

I didn’t even think that [=new worst trait ever] was possible… 0.o

Well, the last year should have told everyone that ANet is highly proficient in making the worst possible choices.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.