Guild Wars 2

I love how the Guardian has to sacrafice everything to get something.

We want DPS… there goes any type of real sustain in anything other than havoc groups.

We want Conditions… we have to use Sigils & Runes.

We want to Bunker down… we sacrifice any real damage.

And although #1 & 3 is “balanced” in theory, the amount of sacrifice is what brings the issue’s to light w/ the design of the class.

THAT has ~always~ been “the issue”…. The AMOUNT of sacrifice a guardian has in unparalleled by any other class. Fix this and the guardians will go back to being silent and content.

Amins.3710:

I love how the Guardian has to sacrafice everything to get something.

We want DPS… there goes any type of real sustain in anything other than havoc groups.

We want Conditions… we have to use Sigils & Runes.

We want to Bunker down… we sacrifice any real damage.

And although #1 & 3 is “balanced” in theory, the amount of sacrifice is what brings the issue’s to light w/ the design of the class.

THAT has ~always~ been “the issue”…. The AMOUNT of sacrifice a guardian has in unparalleled by any other class. Fix this and the guardians will go back to being silent and content.

I can’t agree with this more. So true and spot on.

BTW – nice 4th video.

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.

I’m saying there is no need to think about it not being in a trait line when you can easily get the sigil in pve/wvw. I mentioned sigil of earth, doom and geomancy because those can be used since there is no sigil of torment in spvp.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.

I’m saying there is no need to think about it not being in a trait line when you can easily get the sigil in pve/wvw. I mentioned sigil of earth, doom and geomancy because those can be used since there is no sigil of torment in spvp.

There is a need to think about it, because sigils/runes alone are NOT enough to make guardians have a viable condition build. MAYBE a hybrid build could work, and I have been testing and trying to make it work, but as it stands at the moment, a straight condition build does not work because we have to give up way to much to get it ,just like amins said.

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.

I’m saying there is no need to think about it not being in a trait line when you can easily get the sigil in pve/wvw. I mentioned sigil of earth, doom and geomancy because those can be used since there is no sigil of torment in spvp.

There is a need to think about it, because sigils/runes alone are NOT enough to make guardians have a viable condition build. MAYBE a hybrid build could work, and I have been testing and trying to make it work, but as it stands at the moment, a straight condition build does not work because we have to give up way to much to get it ,just like amins said.

The term viable is completely subjective. So I’m going to ask you what would your objective for a condition build be. Would it be bursting the enemy down with conditions faster than they can recover? Would it be a more team oriented role were you continuously apply pressure that will eventual overwhelm the enemy group?

Something that could actually be compared to a power build? As it stands, there really is no up side to take conditions compared to power as a guardian, be it bunker, glass cannon, or somewhere in between.

Bash.7291:

Something that could actually be compared to a power build? As it stands, there really is no up side to take conditions compared to power as a guardian, be it bunker, glass cannon, or somewhere in between.

From my experience, one positive is that a condition build is less affected by the lack of soft cc like a power build is. Kiting a condition guardian is much less effective since burning, binding blade and retaliation can be applied at range. Defenders’s flame works well with shelter while trying to close distance. Sigil of earth, geomancy and doom can also keep ticking while the enemy tries to close the distance.

So in my opinion a conditon build does have different strengths over a power build.

Amins.3710:

I love how the Guardian has to sacrafice everything to get something.

We want DPS… there goes any type of real sustain in anything other than havoc groups.

We want Conditions… we have to use Sigils & Runes.

We want to Bunker down… we sacrifice any real damage.

And although #1 & 3 is “balanced” in theory, the amount of sacrifice is what brings the issue’s to light w/ the design of the class.

THAT has ~always~ been “the issue”…. The AMOUNT of sacrifice a guardian has in unparalleled by any other class. Fix this and the guardians will go back to being silent and content.

Err… Intelligence sigil apparently makes Guardian hit hard even as bunkers, as far as I can tell, every burst Guardian runs Monk’s Focus with Full meditations and condi guards are powerful already, ease of application for other condis would be great but, no need to make it OP because frankly, we all like a challenge regardless of how much we’ll complain about it.

And to be honest, if I can sit on the face of a fear spamming necro as a condi guard, I call that a win.

Dirame.8521:

Amins.3710:

I love how the Guardian has to sacrafice everything to get something.

We want DPS… there goes any type of real sustain in anything other than havoc groups.

We want Conditions… we have to use Sigils & Runes.

We want to Bunker down… we sacrifice any real damage.

And although #1 & 3 is “balanced” in theory, the amount of sacrifice is what brings the issue’s to light w/ the design of the class.

THAT has ~always~ been “the issue”…. The AMOUNT of sacrifice a guardian has in unparalleled by any other class. Fix this and the guardians will go back to being silent and content.

Err… Intelligence sigil apparently makes Guardian hit hard even as bunkers, as far as I can tell, every burst Guardian runs Monk’s Focus with Full meditations and condi guards are powerful already, ease of application for other condis would be great but, no need to make it OP because frankly, we all like a challenge regardless of how much we’ll complain about it.

And to be honest, if I can sit on the face of a fear spamming necro as a condi guard, I call that a win.

The biggest issue with condis guard is not the damage, or sustain, for me it’s mostly the fact that we do not have any cripple, or chill, or fear, or AoE condition (except for traited VoJ?) A good necro will give you about EVERYTHING, so your heal won’t be as effective (Poison) your cooldown will be slow (Chill) you will be slow (cripple, chill) while receiving bleed, fire, torment damage. Warrior will put fire, cripple, bleed and CC you at the same time. Same goes for every other classes.

Even if the guard fire hits for 1k (in PvP it’s more like 800) it’s the only thing we have.

Also in PvP, the fact that we have low health pool means we have to go for HP or toughness, either way we get wrecked by either conditions (Toughness) or by any burst build (HP with trait and gear is hardly over 18k)

Trice.4598:

Dirame.8521:

Amins.3710:

I love how the Guardian has to sacrafice everything to get something.

We want DPS… there goes any type of real sustain in anything other than havoc groups.

We want Conditions… we have to use Sigils & Runes.

We want to Bunker down… we sacrifice any real damage.

And although #1 & 3 is “balanced” in theory, the amount of sacrifice is what brings the issue’s to light w/ the design of the class.

THAT has ~always~ been “the issue”…. The AMOUNT of sacrifice a guardian has in unparalleled by any other class. Fix this and the guardians will go back to being silent and content.

Err… Intelligence sigil apparently makes Guardian hit hard even as bunkers, as far as I can tell, every burst Guardian runs Monk’s Focus with Full meditations and condi guards are powerful already, ease of application for other condis would be great but, no need to make it OP because frankly, we all like a challenge regardless of how much we’ll complain about it.

And to be honest, if I can sit on the face of a fear spamming necro as a condi guard, I call that a win.

The biggest issue with condis guard is not the damage, or sustain, for me it’s mostly the fact that we do not have any cripple, or chill, or fear, or AoE condition (except for traited VoJ?) A good necro will give you about EVERYTHING, so your heal won’t be as effective (Poison) your cooldown will be slow (Chill) you will be slow (cripple, chill) while receiving bleed, fire, torment damage. Warrior will put fire, cripple, bleed and CC you at the same time. Same goes for every other classes.

Even if the guard fire hits for 1k (in PvP it’s more like 800) it’s the only thing we have.

Also in PvP, the fact that we have low health pool means we have to go for HP or toughness, either way we get wrecked by either conditions (Toughness) or by any burst build (HP with trait and gear is hardly over 18k)

The damage hits from 800 to 1k. The damage builds up if you use might stacking in the form of Might of the Protector and Battle. It’s one of the reasons I named the build “Hit me with your Rythmn stick”, that and the burning on block/retal.
In place of the lack of soft CC is the access to Teleports directly to your target, Judge’s and Flashing Blade.

I’m not sure you can really speak until you’ve played the Defender’s Flame burning build. My Survivability comes from Merciful intervention (literally a second heal and also acts as an escape tool if your ally is outside of the danger zone), blinds and blocks, I can down two people if they don’t pay attention and I can turn a team fight that seems like a loss into a win because, burns.

I can beat any class/spec just by timing things properly. Dodging at the right time, blocking at the right time, blinding the right skills, all factor into how good this build can be.

I would like to see a video of anet employee playing with guardian on WvW and explaining this new updates and possible roles/builds, if anyone has a guardian…

Aza.2105:

Dirame.8521:

Retal test, you can see how high it can get in PvP with 24 might stacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUbJi7Qtm0

xFireize.6318:

500 per tick does hurt. Is that in PvP or WvW, Dirame? Remember that the damage is reduced by 33% in PvP and WvW. How much condi damage do you have?

It was in SPvP; Without might stacks 1577. With 10 might stacks, it’s 1927 or thereabouts.

In WvW, you can probably get that to over 600 retal damage per tick.

EDIT: AH WvW has a retal cap. Nevermind that.

The spvp lobby does not have the retal cap. So that is why you were seeing big numbers. As soon as you get into a spvp match your ret will hit for around 271 or so with that amount of condition damage. And a bit over 315 per tick if you manage to get to 1927

Did another retal test and this time in a match and for some reason I managed to get 25 stacks of might without the help of another guardian.

358 per tick with 25 stacks of might.

Trice.4598:

The biggest issue with condis guard is not the damage, or sustain, for me it’s mostly the fact that we do not have any cripple, or chill, or fear, or AoE condition (except for traited VoJ?) A good necro will give you about EVERYTHING, so your heal won’t be as effective (Poison) your cooldown will be slow (Chill) you will be slow (cripple, chill) while receiving bleed, fire, torment damage. Warrior will put fire, cripple, bleed and CC you at the same time. Same goes for every other classes.

Even if the guard fire hits for 1k (in PvP it’s more like 800) it’s the only thing we have.

Also in PvP, the fact that we have low health pool means we have to go for HP or toughness, either way we get wrecked by either conditions (Toughness) or by any burst build (HP with trait and gear is hardly over 18k)

the main difference is guardian can put perma burning while other profession cant.
in pvp my burning dmg is between 950-1050 and retaliation is 192 combine with swap sigil of bleeding and poison and you got yourself another 3 stack of bleed 300+250
so total of 1750 dps from conditions

necro can put between 4-6 bleed, poison,2-3 torment which do about 1300-1800 dps. sure he can use fear (trait) for 1k dmg tick, and burning but you need to dodge them or block
1 video a fight me fighting condi necro. my hp was 10k and didnt drop at all as i manage to block all his burst conditions skills. just need practice

@Dirame +1
couldnt agree more
burning guardian starting to be more viable in small scale fight
even if you try to ignore the fight you’re dishing out good dmg
without hitting a mesmer i could get him to 10% hp just by blocking and when he put viel i JI and he burn himself to death.

messiah.1908:

Trice.4598:

The biggest issue with condis guard is not the damage, or sustain, for me it’s mostly the fact that we do not have any cripple, or chill, or fear, or AoE condition (except for traited VoJ?) A good necro will give you about EVERYTHING, so your heal won’t be as effective (Poison) your cooldown will be slow (Chill) you will be slow (cripple, chill) while receiving bleed, fire, torment damage. Warrior will put fire, cripple, bleed and CC you at the same time. Same goes for every other classes.

Even if the guard fire hits for 1k (in PvP it’s more like 800) it’s the only thing we have.

Also in PvP, the fact that we have low health pool means we have to go for HP or toughness, either way we get wrecked by either conditions (Toughness) or by any burst build (HP with trait and gear is hardly over 18k)

the main difference is guardian can put perma burning while other profession cant.
in pvp my burning dmg is between 950-1050 and retaliation is 192 combine with swap sigil of bleeding and poison and you got yourself another 3 stack of bleed 300+250
so total of 1750 dps from conditions

necro can put between 4-6 bleed, poison,2-3 torment which do about 1300-1800 dps. sure he can use fear (trait) for 1k dmg tick, and burning but you need to dodge them or block
1 video a fight me fighting condi necro. my hp was 10k and didnt drop at all as i manage to block all his burst conditions skills. just need practice

@Dirame +1
couldnt agree more
burning guardian starting to be more viable in small scale fight
even if you try to ignore the fight you’re dishing out good dmg
without hitting a mesmer i could get him to 10% hp just by blocking and when he put viel i JI and he burn himself to death.

Don’t forget to add binding blade into the equation, with rabid amulet it does around 430ish per tick for 10secs I believe.

messiah.1908:

the main difference is guardian can put perma burning while other profession cant.

I keep seeing this being said. An engie can put up perma burning. So can a mesmer.

Outside of that (this isn’t directed to anyone specifically), it would be cool to see some PvP gameplay videos of these condi builds? Its one thing to write about how its effective, and how to x, y, and z. But seeing it is what makes people believers.

Blasino.3128:

messiah.1908:

the main difference is guardian can put perma burning while other profession cant.

I keep seeing this being said. An engie can put up perma burning. So can a mesmer.

Outside of that (this isn’t directed to anyone specifically), it would be cool to see some PvP gameplay videos of these condi builds? Its one thing to write about how its effective, and how to x, y, and z. But seeing it is what makes people believers.

I’ll do so soon. I’m making the update guides to all my builds that were updated in the feature patch and you will see the gameplay vids in there.

Blasino.3128:

messiah.1908:

the main difference is guardian can put perma burning while other profession cant.

I keep seeing this being said. An engie can put up perma burning. So can a mesmer.

Outside of that (this isn’t directed to anyone specifically), it would be cool to see some PvP gameplay videos of these condi builds? Its one thing to write about how its effective, and how to x, y, and z. But seeing it is what makes people believers.

here is video of hot join testing it and it was fun. you can see me doing 1v2/3 and taking condi necro bit too easy (probably he w8 for me to use boons and not burn him). as i am not so good guardian i am sure other will put better video of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFbopJeE2UY

about perma burning
1. mesmer and engi cannot perma it. sure they can put it but not make it perma. mesmer has random with staff and prestige which is long cd.
2. dont forget that enemy will use cleanse so other profession will have to w8 their cd off while guard can put it right away . hence perma
3. guard can do aoe burn for quite long time while other cannot.
4. guard does 33% more dmg from burning while other dont.
5. also dont forget enemy will use decrease duration (in wvw mainly) so 2 seconds becomes 0) while guard burning duration is longer

Engie just needs incendiary powder and bombs to keep perma burning. You are right about the mesmer, my mistake.

My other question is how are is everyone here keeping with perma burning on one target with these builds?

Sword auto itself takes 2.5 seconds for its auto to fire off (this includes animation time) for 1 second of burning.

The videos do not show anyone here keeping up perma burning unless I’m missing something.

Guardians need their perma-retal builds back.

Won’t happen Blakdoxa, that is why it was changed in WvW to match PvP

Honestly after trying some builds with it again it isn’t great for solo play out in WvW. Unless you can bring 1400 to 1500 condition damage and 2800 armor to the plate, forget it. You can put some pressure on people I’ve found but at the end of the day bingo armor means insta death. This is coming from a solo/duo or trio make up.

Blasino.3128:

Engie just needs incendiary powder and bombs to keep perma burning. You are right about the mesmer, my mistake.

My other question is how are is everyone here keeping with perma burning on one target with these builds?

Sword auto itself takes 2.5 seconds for its auto to fire off (this includes animation time) for 1 second of burning.

The videos do not show anyone here keeping up perma burning unless I’m missing something.

block gives you 2 sec per block so if you get attacked save it when beeing burst than you can stack 6-8 seconds burning than your voj every 5th attack is 2 seconds and using symbol also stack as attack while you auto attack , JI also is 6 seconds ,PF is 10 seconds

here is short example from tonight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYbEfzl81qI&feature=youtu.be

That is a lot of burning, but that still does not equate to permanent burning even with everything you stated.

Blasino.3128:

That is a lot of burning, but that still does not equate to permanent burning even with everything you stated.

why not? or i dont understand you
the fight was 12 seconds and the ele got burn for 11 seconds till he got downed

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

It isn’t so much about being better than power, but competitive. Compared to soldiers, a dire burn build definitely could be. You still have you physical strikes, but the burning effectively let’s you “be on target” for as long as someone let’s you keep that burn on them. It’s constant and easily applied pressure which can be harder to provide with just direct damage.

I think the situation with guardian, most condition damage armor sets either have an armor or health weakness, but we also benefit heavily from power. In pvp I ran a fairly successful build using the celestial amulet. In wvw, I figure a combination of soldier and dire could provide the necessary defense, condition damage, and power. I think most of the key is adding burn duration and permeating wrath. With weapons like great sword or staff can easily stack a lot of aoe pressure. I ran a 6/2/0/0/6 to great effect. Amplified wrath, if you’re mainly focusing on burn, effectively adds hundreds of condition damage. There are also plenty of non aoe burn build that could also hurt. As far as pvp and wvw go, I believe condition damage builds can be competitive. Open world pve can also, but meta dungeon runs still don’t really allow any condition build, let alone for guardian.

for my point of view as i started play as support and than bunker in wvw, my guardian didnt do much sustain dmg if i wanted him to survive in the melee front with +2k power.
sure if you compare it to power zerk meditation build which dies insane dmg but its roaming build and not group one.
the condition allows me to do aoe burn between 3-5k on 4-9 ppl, and if i target 1 enemy i can do 8-12k till he dies as i can stay on him easily.
while power hammer or sword can do the same on smaller number of ppl 1-3 but protection/blocks/dodges/high armor will negate direct dmg.

ppl mistaking trying to compare condition to power. power is burst dmg on one location while condition is dmg over time.
so consider the enemy group taking heave burst dmg and going to heal themselve while if i put condition the dmg still tick

so the main question is does the condi guard can do better dmg over condi necro/engi in group fight…

so its different play style which i think some group will adopt it in the future as more of us will try it

messiah.1908:

so the main question is does the condi guard can do better dmg over condi necro/engi in group fight…

so its different play style which i think some group will adopt it in the future as more of us will try it

Thing is you can come in, bust out bunch of damage AoE but you’ll never out do what the utility that is having a variety of conditions to apply. AoE Chill and Poison are very important in team fights and the Necro and engie provide that.

I always considered that in team fights it’s all about utility not necessarily power.

I think the issues are:

How does going 30 into Zeal help your group or how does it outdamage a guardian built for damage or support? I mean since most support builds run 0/0/4/6/4 or 0/0/2/6/6, what are you going to pull off of what trait lines to get Aplified Wrath while keeping support options.

And does going 30 into Zeal out damage a support builds normal attacks? I mean really the only way to prove that is to show detailed analysis on the math which I’m sure foofad is doing in his pryoclasm thread. Before this trait the answer was no, it doesn’t. With the trait, it “could” be yes, but I doubt it and even then you loose out on supporting your own team while having a possible small buff in damage.

And if you want perma burning on a target then you will need to go 4 into virtues and get rid of absolute resolution. That’s less condi removal for everyone. Otherwise you are just randomly applying burning to different targets for 1-2 seconds and not permanently.

In the end I don’t see how this is viable. Burning builds have less support options then most builds, less sustain then most builds, or it can’t out damage most builds.

about the topic: thing that many here seems to be missing is the fact that retaliation scales damage not with your power but with power of a guy that attack. (at least it used to – if there were a change – point me to patch notes that states it scaling with your stats)

so as for my logic radiant retaliation is ANet answer to guardians issue that in era of condi builds retaliations wasn’t a good deal (no more trolling power glass cannons thiefs – cause they changed builds for condi ones)
so with that trait we are swapping our retaliation to hit condi-based enemies instead of those power-based.

seems like a deal for me…..

Lord Trejgon.2809:

about the topic: thing that many here seems to be missing is the fact that retaliation scales damage not with your power but with power of a guy that attack. (at least it used to – if there were a change – point me to patch notes that states it scaling with your stats)

so as for my logic radiant retaliation is ANet answer to guardians issue that in era of condi builds retaliations wasn’t a good deal (no more trolling power glass cannons thiefs – cause they changed builds for condi ones)
so with that trait we are swapping our retaliation to hit condi-based enemies instead of those power-based.

seems like a deal for me…..

It was never based on the person hitting you, only the person who applied it. It scales with the user’s power (or condition damage for guards with the trait)

messiah.1908:

for my point of view as i started play as support and than bunker in wvw, my guardian didnt do much sustain dmg if i wanted him to survive in the melee front with +2k power.
sure if you compare it to power zerk meditation build which dies insane dmg but its roaming build and not group one.
the condition allows me to do aoe burn between 3-5k on 4-9 ppl, and if i target 1 enemy i can do 8-12k till he dies as i can stay on him easily.
while power hammer or sword can do the same on smaller number of ppl 1-3 but protection/blocks/dodges/high armor will negate direct dmg.

ppl mistaking trying to compare condition to power. power is burst dmg on one location while condition is dmg over time.
so consider the enemy group taking heave burst dmg and going to heal themselve while if i put condition the dmg still tick

so the main question is does the condi guard can do better dmg over condi necro/engi in group fight…

so its different play style which i think some group will adopt it in the future as more of us will try it

My question is though, how do you sustain. How do you remove conditions, how do you keep your health up in larger group fights? (15-20+) What build would you use that could give that much burning, with that much damage, with enough duration to actually let the burns cause damage, that also has sustain and condition removal?

Bash.7291:

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

I’ll be bold enough to say that condition guardian maybe in a better overall position than a power guardian in pvp. I say this because the number 1 offender (lack of soft cc) does not stop a condition guardian from doing damage.

Amplified wrath is a extraordinary trait, the biggest problem is the preceding traits leading up to amplified wrath do nothing to synergize with the trait. Other than fiery wrath of course, but if one is condition spec I’m not sure if fiery wrath is worth it.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

I’ll be bold enough to say that condition guardian maybe in a better overall position than a power guardian in pvp. I say this because the number 1 offender (lack of soft cc) does not stop a condition guardian from doing damage.

Amplified wrath is a extraordinary trait, the biggest problem is the preceding traits leading up to amplified wrath do nothing to synergize with the trait. Other than fiery wrath of course, but if one is condition spec I’m not sure if fiery wrath is worth it.

In sPvP? No. The lack of soft CC is pretty much not noticed just due to the fact of capture points. Hell, the fact that mace can actually be used in sPvP is clear indicator of that.

In roaming/small group WvW, it all depends. Scepter is an amazing weapon assuming you know better than to try to use it at full range. When used like a melee weapon with extended range it really does a good job at keeping damage on someone. Also with the changes to runes of speed/traveler (a few patches ago) keeping one someone isn’t as bad as it used to be. Also now with the added rune slot we can add in either sigil of ice or hydromancy to help with some soft CC. Or you can just be a complete jerk and use Reaper of Grenth to troll.

In large group, well the lack of soft cc is thrown out the window anyways…

And I do agree that the new grandmaster is a pretty decent trait, but as you said, it is in a horrible place. It has no synergy with anything else in the line, and if you want to build on it with something like permeating wrath or radiant retaliation, you pretty much have to sacrifice any and all survivability. I was Just playing around tying to make an AoE large group burn build and going 6/x/x/x/6 earlier on one of the build sites, going full dire I sat at around 3k armor and 17k health, which is fairly modest, but the issue is that there was no way to heal any of it. And considering that permeating wrath is focused on the guardian, you HAVE to be in the middle of the fights to land it.

Also, as far as radiant retaliation goes, the cap kills it. It barely does enough more than a decent power build would, and either you have to choose to go that route and spec into virtues to get really good uptime, or you have to go the extra burning damage and forget about condition retal as you wont have the points to get the extra uptime from virtues (3 trait points for retal on virtues)

^ All of this are excellent points.

Bash.7291:

My question is though, how do you sustain. How do you remove conditions, how do you keep your health up in larger group fights? (15-20+) What build would you use that could give that much burning, with that much damage, with enough duration to actually let the burns cause damage, that also has sustain and condition removal?

my build revolve around meditation so 6,1,6,0,1 with full meditation which heals me ~2k each utility and 5k from merciful intervention and also remove conditions
i got 100% burning duration
my main problem is not in 15-20 ppl group rather than blob. if i dodge the wrong way i cant handle the train rushing me (nor any other class). but i can block for 2-6 seconds
so even after my enemy cleanse his condition i can put burning right after while his cd is 30-45 i have enough time to deal dmg.

messiah.1908:

Bash.7291:

My question is though, how do you sustain. How do you remove conditions, how do you keep your health up in larger group fights? (15-20+) What build would you use that could give that much burning, with that much damage, with enough duration to actually let the burns cause damage, that also has sustain and condition removal?

my build revolve around meditation so 6,1,6,0,1 with full meditation which heals me ~2k each utility and 5k from merciful intervention and also remove conditions
i got 100% burning duration
my main problem is not in 15-20 ppl group rather than blob. if i dodge the wrong way i cant handle the train rushing me (nor any other class). but i can block for 2-6 seconds
so even after my enemy cleanse his condition i can put burning right after while his cd is 30-45 i have enough time to deal dmg.

Ok, then how do you keep burning on constantly on 4-9 people at a time, JI only hits 5, torch #4 only hits 3, and your VoJ only hits 1.

with 100% duration its doubled
JI 6 seconds
VOJ 2 seconds every 5th attack (so smite which hit 8-16 times proc voj it so well)
torch #4 is 3 stacks for 6 seconds
each block 2 seconds
torch #5 is 10 hits (also proc voj it very well)
PF 8 seconds

so basic rotation against clump group is
1. smite
2. torch 4
3. ji
4. torch 5
5. heal which block or PF
6. GS #4 sow
etc

dont expect to see 30 seconds in 20 group fight as probably they will cleanse it but you can re-put the condition right after. and also enemies move around so it hard to target the same enemies to continue stack your burning
so expect to see enemy burning 1k for 3-5 seconds and your main target for 8-15 seconds which is so far the best aoe dmg
if you can target 10 ppl and cause only 3 seconds burning its 10*3*1000=30,000 dmg (3k each enemy) didnt consider the direct dmg which can be 1k-2k each hit so 50k dmg in 3 seconds

So, I messed around in sPvP some, and found a build that I felt worked very very well.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNArdRlsApboVDxcI8DRR8QlT1BQD8o4c9PEE5AA-TJRHwAV2fIwpAAZZAAPBAA

Essentially just a hybrid version instead of a pure condition version. Crit is horrible but the triple med with fury on use makes some useful burst. I treat Binding blade as a condition for the most part and only use the pull when needed. Granted this build was just tested in hotjoin, but I feel it worked pretty well. Actually managed to get 2 people down when jumping into a 4v1 (wanted to test the damage/survivability)

The real test will be against my GM on his Ele in a duel though, as I tend to base my current builds against him simply because how how adaptable eles can be, and the fact that he is just a really good player.

messiah.1908:

with 100% duration its doubled
JI 6 seconds
VOJ 2 seconds every 5th attack (so smite which hit 8-16 times proc voj it so well)
torch #4 is 3 stacks for 6 seconds
each block 2 seconds
torch #5 is 10 hits (also proc voj it very well)
PF 8 seconds

so basic rotation against clump group is
1. smite
2. torch 4
3. ji
4. torch 5
5. heal which block or PF
6. GS #4 sow
etc

dont expect to see 30 seconds in 20 group fight as probably they will cleanse it but you can re-put the condition right after. and also enemies move around so it hard to target the same enemies to continue stack your burning
so expect to see enemy burning 1k for 3-5 seconds and your main target for 8-15 seconds which is so far the best aoe dmg
if you can target 10 ppl and cause only 3 seconds burning its 10*3*1000=30,000 dmg (3k each enemy) didnt consider the direct dmg which can be 1k-2k each hit so 50k dmg in 3 seconds

BTW, Sigil of Smoldering and the Radiance trait are bugged.

So how are you getting 100% burning duration?

i dont use those
i use rune of balthazar which give 45%, trait line 30% and food 28%-40%

i will put soon video of doing over 60k aoe dmg in 12 seconds on ~20v20 open field wvw fights

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

I’ll be bold enough to say that condition guardian maybe in a better overall position than a power guardian in pvp. I say this because the number 1 offender (lack of soft cc) does not stop a condition guardian from doing damage.

Amplified wrath is a extraordinary trait, the biggest problem is the preceding traits leading up to amplified wrath do nothing to synergize with the trait. Other than fiery wrath of course, but if one is condition spec I’m not sure if fiery wrath is worth it.

In sPvP? No. The lack of soft CC is pretty much not noticed just due to the fact of capture points. Hell, the fact that mace can actually be used in sPvP is clear indicator of that.

In roaming/small group WvW, it all depends. Scepter is an amazing weapon assuming you know better than to try to use it at full range. When used like a melee weapon with extended range it really does a good job at keeping damage on someone. Also with the changes to runes of speed/traveler (a few patches ago) keeping one someone isn’t as bad as it used to be. Also now with the added rune slot we can add in either sigil of ice or hydromancy to help with some soft CC. Or you can just be a complete jerk and use Reaper of Grenth to troll.

In large group, well the lack of soft cc is thrown out the window anyways…

And I do agree that the new grandmaster is a pretty decent trait, but as you said, it is in a horrible place. It has no synergy with anything else in the line, and if you want to build on it with something like permeating wrath or radiant retaliation, you pretty much have to sacrifice any and all survivability. I was Just playing around tying to make an AoE large group burn build and going 6/x/x/x/6 earlier on one of the build sites, going full dire I sat at around 3k armor and 17k health, which is fairly modest, but the issue is that there was no way to heal any of it. And considering that permeating wrath is focused on the guardian, you HAVE to be in the middle of the fights to land it.

Also, as far as radiant retaliation goes, the cap kills it. It barely does enough more than a decent power build would, and either you have to choose to go that route and spec into virtues to get really good uptime, or you have to go the extra burning damage and forget about condition retal as you wont have the points to get the extra uptime from virtues (3 trait points for retal on virtues)

I feel that lack of soft cc will always be a problem, its just to a lesser extent in spvp. It doesn’t mean the weakness isn’t present however.

What is weird is that three different trait lines are involved with the burning condition somehow. It makes it difficult to obtain many great traits that would help optimize a condition build.

So far in my experiments I’ve settled with 30 in zeal and 30 in radiance for maximum burn. 30 in virtues is great depending because of the better ret uptime and pbaoe burning and supreme justice. Overall condition guardian is in a way better place than its every been.

I feel anet just needs to bring more focus in the zeal line and fix up radiant retaliation. Maybe remove the damage cap if you have the trait? Zeal line is completely weird, if you run spirit weapons it has synergy. But with no spirit weapons the traits seem to be all over the place.

I feel anet just needs to bring more focus in the zeal line and fix up radiant retaliation. Maybe remove the damage cap if you have the trait?

This would be fine for a single Guardian. It wouldn’t be fine with 2 or more Guardians (e.g. WvW or any PvE dungeon). That is why it will never be greater than 33%. I wish it was otherwise because it would be heck of fun but alas it isn’t. And I was hoping so very much that this “Grand” trait wouldn’t have any limits

Aza.2105:

I feel anet just needs to bring more focus in the zeal line and fix up radiant retaliation. Maybe remove the damage cap if you have the trait? Zeal line is completely weird, if you run spirit weapons it has synergy. But with no spirit weapons the traits seem to be all over the place.

I think Zeal is in a good place, it could have more burning type traits and something needs to be done with Kindled Zeal as it’s stupid to put it in the same grandmaster place as Amplified Wrath, let alone in the same trait line. For hybrid builds, Zeal offers good damage and burning damage.

i think what anet wanted was to bring the power build guardian back even higher with 33% more burning so even in base dmg of 328 it becomes 436 but most builds dont use 30 points in zeal so they just create another new build which is 6,x,6,x,x based on direct dmg or condition which both with meditations
so now the guardian have support builds and 2 dmg build evolving condition or direct dmg