The worst part of Symbols right now is that they are stationary AOEs. Guardians also lack meaningful conditions outside of burning and a couple of sources (only one of which is reliable – Scepter) of immobilize. Solution: “Mark” targets with symbols, don’t drop them on the ground. Have the AOE be centered on the target and follow them. Drop the damage somewhat to compensate for that particular target taking the full brunt of it. Result, Guardians gets a neat class mechanic beyond “this is my circle, enter at your peril” and don’t need to worry so much about options for conditions.
I’m actually okay with “this is my circle, enter at your peril.” It’s just that there is no peril to speak of right now.
If you want marks, play necro, their staff skills not only conform to your naming convention, but they behave exactly as you described…
No, Marks are ground targetted. They’re basically traps. I’m suggesting that you literally plant the symbol on a person and it becomes inescapable, it’s on their body and harms anyone that comes near them regardless of where they go.
I can’t stand the way symbols work right now; They do too little damage to warrant even using them at all in WvW since anyone will just walk right on out. Blegh.
No, Marks are ground targetted. They’re basically traps. I’m suggesting that you literally plant the symbol on a person and it becomes inescapable, it’s on their body and harms anyone that comes near them regardless of where they go.
I can’t stand the way symbols work right now; They do too little damage to warrant even using them at all in WvW since anyone will just walk right on out. Blegh.
Marks can be casted directly on the person, and all mark’s effects are instant or condition based, so it stays on the target.
Either way – Smacking symbols onto people would be a lot more entertaining than dropping them on the ground to be avoided and made useless.
Symbols just need to be bigger. They are puny to the point of uselessness in many cases.
The way Symbols work is fine, but the effects they have on the opponent could be bigger, to increase our ability for field control (which I feel should be a big part of the Guardian’s playstyle).
Come to think of it, maybe the Smite should become a Symbol with a pretty annoying condition (maybe a Cripple or a Chill). This makes the Scepter better (which it needs to be), gives the Scepter a bigger identity (crowd-control weapon) and forces opponents to think about stepping in (all) our Symbols.
Symbols just need to be bigger. They are puny to the point of uselessness in many cases.
This. Traited version of them should be default.
Increase the size of them and make the boon they give be applied in all its duration on cast, that way the damage component would be to defend an area and the boon would benefit the team.
Basically aoe damage and combofield on the ground and boon applied in the aoe when placing the symbol. If you enter the symbol after its casted you get no boon.
Make it so GS can cast SoW when moving and make all cast times the same.
Good to go imo.
This would be a nerf to AH in pve, where its overpowered, due to that the boon is only applied once and a huge boost to our melee range teamsupport in pvp/wvw where we are underpowered and it would make symbol traits so much more worth it..
(edited by Brutaly.6257)
Traited size as default would be pretty great. I vaguely recall them being larger in Beta, was that the case? I can’t remember now.
Huge nerf to AH across the board. No way. Not just pve. This would kill the ah build.
This is a horrible idea and there would need to be soooo many other changes to the class to compensate for it….. Just because u can’t learn to fight in your circle?
I vaguely recall them being larger in Beta, was that the case? I can’t remember now.
I don’t think they were. The notion that Symbols weren’t big enough have been around forever.
Huge nerf to Altruistic Healing across the board. No way. Not just PvE. This would kill the Altruistic Healing build.
This is a horrible idea and there would need to be so many other changes to the class to compensate for it….. Just because u can’t learn to fight in your circle?
It would mostly affect PvE and WvWvW and I feel like Altruistic Healing is too good. Not from a balance perspective, but compared with other Grandmaster level traits we have access to.
And the issue isn’t “learn[ing] to fight in your circle”, it’s the fact that we don’t have a lot of options for keeping our opponent in the circle, which means we lose out on either the boon it grants or the damage it provides (or both).
I don’t see the issue.
And the issue isn’t “learn[ing] to fight in your circle”, it’s the fact that we don’t have a lot of options for keeping our opponent in the circle, which means we lose out on either the boon it grants or the damage it provides (or both).
exactly what i think. but its not only a problem related to simbols, but to all that mechanic that imply some kind of ground control. For example consecration are on the same situation, ok you can cast em on target with the right trait, but nothing force the target to stay on your consecration.
Bigger simbols can be a good start, but simbols too big can create some sort of problem when a lot a guardian play on the same place. As i say from the GS nerf, guardian need a sort of control on simbols, related to the simbol “spam rate” and to the weapon balance.
Simbol of protection, for example, is ok in the actual situation, because hammer have and awesome mobility and a very good control, and when RoW will be fixed, it will become even better.
I don’t see the issue.
The issue being that with how Symbols work now, it goes directly against the playstyle that’s inherent in PvP.
I like the idea that symbols could move with a person, including yourself if it’s a defensive symbol. I think that would differentiate guardians nicely from other ground targeting effects and boon applications. I’m still struggling with Dev’s concept of guardian … the one where guardians have some unique benefit from boons. Frankly I don’t see it but the ability to ‘move’ your AOE boons around with you would be a very interesting strategy and uniquely guardian.
I like the idea that symbols could move with a person, including yourself if it’s a defensive symbol. I think that would differentiate guardians nicely from other ground targeting effects and boon applications. I’m still struggling with Dev’s concept of guardian … the one where guardians have some unique benefit from boons. Frankly I don’t see it but the ability to ‘move’ your AOE boons around with you would be a very interesting strategy and uniquely guardian.
But with this, the guardian just become a normal paladin with auras and some conjured weapon. Its not original or tactical, its just a paladin.
The base concept of the guardian class is awesome, but the realization of this concept is weak! thats the point.
If the guardian is supposed to be a “magical melee only fighter” the devs have only to develop this concept.
1)they have to improve boons (duration and effect) and they can do this by tweak or change our useless or nonsense traits.
2) they have to improve the concept of “field control”, and auras are not a solution to this. More wards (only 2 tied to the weapon choice are not enough), simbols and consecrations that slow\punish enemies. this is the solution.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to dismiss the idea because it makes us a paladin (I’m not even sure what that is). I understand the concept to realization has some gaps. Even if it mimics some other thing from another game, I wouldn’t care. If the idea’s good, then existing use outside the game shouldn’t stop the devs from considering it.
Improving boons won’t address guardians because it would affect everyone. Mobile symbols would actually improve field control (if that’s indeed what the dev’s think Guardians should be). I’m unsure why you think it couldn’t be part of a solution.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Improving boons won’t address the Guardian’s because it would affect everyone. Mobile Symbols would actually improve field control (if that’s indeed what the dev’s think Guardians should be)
Improving boons for the Guardian won’t just help everyone (but I’m not sure if it’s needed).
Mobile Symbols would not improve field control at all. It just gives opponents even more reason to run away from you.
I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Huge nerf to AH across the board. No way. Not just pve. This would kill the ah build.
This is a horrible idea and there would need to be soooo many other changes to the class to compensate for it….. Just because u can’t learn to fight in your circle?
Yea because being anything less than one of the two most desired classes for dungeons is unacceptable. AH needs a fat nerf in group PvE and guardian would be just fine without it as they have plenty of other ridiculous traits and abilities.
I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe. Mobile symbols would be more effective in doing that than what we presently have now.
Field control is when you take an area and you apply something to infuse your influence on that particular area. And aura is for sure a field control mechanic, BUT have no tactics aspect, because you have only to keep the aura always active and rush the enemy, you dont have to think when or where use it, you have only to keep the aura active.
For now we have only an incomplete field control, That work on Spvp where you have to keep the point so you pratically dont move from a spot and its the enemy that come to you, but on WvW is “useless” because the map is larger and the enemy 90% of time hit and run. Our field control machenic Miss totally the punishing\constriction part.
It most definitely could have a tactics aspect depending on how it’s designed and implemented.
I don’t think the discussion is far enough ahead to exclude the idea because it would be OPed under specific circumstances. There are obviously limitations that could be imposed on it if such a thing did get to a design phase. As an idea, mobile symbols are reasonable enough to consider, would fit into the Guardian concept and could improve certain aspects of its gameplay.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.
And for WvW it would decimate the AH Build completely, Ynna.
On top of that, your suggesting that guardians be ‘special’ in thier ground targeted AoE abilties…
Might as well make Elementalists Ground Targeted AoE abilities follow them too…
Wait, how about we all just be Choas Knights like WAR… that’s it. I see where this is going.
I still don’t see the problem. Maybe it’s just a L2P issue.
EDIT: And we should always be balancing for PvE…. /lol
(edited by Amins.3710)
I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.
Yeah, right now they are. If you simply made the current symbols mobile, they would be weak for field control. I can’t see anyone following a mace Guardian to get regen or protection from hammer. You also don’t see anyone running from symbol of wrath either. I’m going beyond simply advocating the current symbols be mobilized. I’m suggesting that mobile symbols could be a good anti-zerg mechanic for PVP.
If you took a step back and said “Hey, let’s make symbols that are mobile to enhance field control”, you could imagine a form they could take to be effective in that role.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
And for WvW it would decimate the AH Build completely, Ynna.
On top of that, your suggesting that guardians be ‘special’ in their ground targeted AoE abilities…
Might as well make Elementalists Ground Targeted AoE abilities follow them too…
EDIT: And we should always be balancing for PvE…. /lol
1) I don’t think Symbols need changes. A few tweaks might be nice, but big changes are probably unnecessary. What I’d like to see (for example) is giving the Scepter a Symbols that grants a debilitating effect (which makes opponents more wary about all Symbols) or giving us a (Master-)trait that grants a chance to apply a chill/cripple to an opponent that enters a Symbol.
2) I don’t want to destroy the Altruistic Healing build in any kind of content, I just care little about it, since it overshadows most of our other options. In an ideal world, I’d like to see more interesting Grandmaster traits for Guardians, rather than a change to Altruistic Healing.
3) I wasn’t arguing in favor of moving Symbols (on the contrary, see also point 1).
4) I’d rather see other professions (including Elementalists) have stronger punisher-mechanic, so they’ll also get more field control.
5) I care about PvE to the extent that I care about the Guardian as a whole. I don’t particularly enjoy the PvE content, so I’m not very knowledgeable about it. That being said, I don’t like to see nerfs (or buffs) for one type of content at the expense of other types.
I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.
This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.
Yeah, right now they are. If you simply made the current symbols mobile, they would be weak for field control. I don’t see anyone following a mace Guardian to get regen or protection from hammer. You also don’t see anyone running from symbol of wrath either. I’m going beyond simply advocating the current symbols be mobilized. I’m suggesting that mobile symbols could be a good anti-zerg mechanic for PVP.
If you took a step back and said “Hey, let’s make symbols that are mobile to enhance field control”, you could imagine a form they could take to be effective in that role.
if you add more effect to the simbols, and then you make them mobile, they will become extremely OP. Its just like say “hey attack me from distance because near me you are dead!”
Just think if they add some kind of Cripple\chill\“new condition simbol based only” with a stationary simbol. For example, you can Leap with you GS and then use the simbols to slow\punish you enemy for some second, then you can chain it, pull it, change weapon and use another simbol(but the possible combination are a lot). This will be a good form of control. your enemy have to be able to escape(but he can escape), not like now, where he have only to run away.
With the Aura you have only to be near you enemy(its worse then retaliation), and if you add a slowing effect or more damage, it will just become TOO OP. Damage, debuff or buff, only staying near the guardian.
Actual simbols need to be:
1)larger, because when not traited simbols are really too small.
2) they need a constriction aspect, the only simbols that dont need to be touched is the hammer simbol, but the others, need some kind of love.
Fair enough, but this whole thread stinks of “I can’t keep people where I want them, so the problem must be w/ the symbols”.
Have you guys even seen the kind of damage our symbols do? Probably not, because 95% of the people who play guardians are NOT spec’d for damage.
My symbols crit from 2k-3k and can do it 2-3 times, especially when combined w/ Chian & RoW.
On top of that, you can spec for healing w/ them, healing from the boons they give, and are INCREDIBLE Combo’s.
Symbols are fine.
Just to clarify: I was suggesting that the symbol follows the enemy, not you. In other words, anyone that was meleeing the enemy would still give you the benefit of AH. It would also have the effect of potentially scattering lines of enemies, which would be an interesting mechanic for purposes of field control.
As for it being a “learn to play” issue, I have 800 hours on my Guardian, I run both tank and damage specs and have multiple sets of exotics (one for each spec), yadda yadda yadda. I know what I’m talking about. This was me ruminating over a random idea, hence the title of the thread.
How about Auras instead of symbols. If GW2’s combat was more static then symbols would make sense. This game is all about movement so our skills should reflect that.
Fair enough, but this whole thread stinks of “I can’t keep people where I want them, so the problem must be w/ the symbols”.
Have you guys even seen the kind of damage our symbols do? Probably not, because 95% of the people who play guardians are NOT spec’d for damage.
My symbols crit from 2k-3k and can do it 2-3 times, especially when combined w/ Chian & RoW.
On top of that, you can spec for healing w/ them, healing from the boons they give, and are INCREDIBLE Combo’s.
Symbols are fine.
Yours crit for 2-3k a tick on a target you’ll almost never hit.(pvp)
if you add more effect to the simbols, and then you make them mobile, they will become extremely OP.
Yes, OK. I see that but I don’t see anyone suggesting more be added to symbols. The thread is simply an alternative implementation for them and frankly, it’s an interesting one to talk about IMO.
With the Aura you have only to be near you enemy(its worse then retaliation), and if you add a slowing effect or more damage, it will just become TOO OP. Damage, debuff or buff, only staying near the guardian.
Sure. Again, I don’t see anyone suggesting anything specific. Cripple or more damage may indeed be too OP. That’s easily addressed when considering the design of the feature.
Actual simbols need to be:
1)larger, because when not traited simbols are really too small.
2) they need a constriction aspect, the only simbols that dont need to be touched is the hammer simbol, but the others, need some kind of love.
I can appreciate this is your opinion on how to improve symbols and I don’t feel it’s too far off what would make symbols a more significant factor in playing a Guardian. What’s simply being suggested in this thread is an alternative approach to how symbols are implemented for Guardians.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Sure Arken…. Got me there…./rolls eyes.
If symbols are following the target, then what about the combo?
Fair enough, but this whole thread stinks of “I can’t keep people where I want them, so the problem must be w/ the symbols”.
Have you guys even seen the kind of damage our symbols do? Probably not, because 95% of the people who play guardians are NOT spec’d for damage.
My symbols crit from 2k-3k and can do it 2-3 times, especially when combined w/ Chian & RoW.
On top of that, you can spec for healing w/ them, healing from the boons they give, and are INCREDIBLE Combo’s.
Symbols are fine.
What do you mean by spec’d for damage? My Ele’s lava font crits for 2k-3k per pulse and he’s spec’d for healing. That means, no points in fire, at all. The lava font also has shorter cooldown than all but 1 symbol.
I just don’t see how people can justify symbols being a dps tool, do you even know where the baseline is?
Sure Arken…. Got me there…./rolls eyes.
If symbols are following the target, then what about the combo?
I don’t see any reason not to make it a mobile light field. Leaping into it, blasting within it, projectiles on the way to the person marked, etc would all work as normal.
Symbols do okay damage. But just okay. I hit for 3k just hitting one target with Sword Wave. Your symbol would have to do quite a bit more than autoattack damage for me to be impressed with its damage capability, and that’s ignoring the fact that someone can walk right out of it were they so inclined.
While it’d be a bit tricky to pull off for the hammer, it would be kinda cool to have our symbol button change once its been placed. Traited, it could AoE heal, blind, chill, cure condition, etc. So, just like our virtues, it presents a choice: keep the symbol down for a longer duration buff/heal, or activate it for an immediate bonus that adds ~5s to the cooldown of the symbol. This could allow the staff to be a much better mid-line weapon, in addition to our woeful scepter should Smite become a symbol.
Also, in going with the area-control idea of the guardian, why not give a symbol a blackhole-esque activation? Our symbols should be more about utility, rather than damage, especially considering an across-the-board boost to symbols would give the gs/hammer an even bigger buff over the other weapons.
Have the AOE be centered on the target and follow them. Drop the damage somewhat to compensate for that particular target taking the full brunt of it.
What you are suggesting is actually a pretty good idea. I think it’d work better on a Necromancer though, as a corruption skill. The target is diseased and radiates out poison/bleed/weakness to nearby targets.
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