Guild Wars 2

As i spend most my time doing different dungeons i come across….. too many guardians using ranged weapons. Now yes the staff is so good and i use it all the time as my back up weapon. What i am talking about is Scepter/shield or focus. I just want to know why. it really has very little to offer a party. where as your melee weapons have so much to offer from heals-boons-dps-CC. I know it sucks when you get downed but its sucks a lot more wiping because someone wasn’t supporting there team.

Not going to lie, i do think it is because people have trouble in melee and start to back away from combat in order to just stay alive.
Or am i missing something? and please no one say they can support the team with shouts from the back.

why cant you support the team when using scepter? if i want to shout i’ll just move near my team mates then pop the shouts, then i’ll go back out and attack from range.
beside at high fractal, melee is pretty suicidal

This is what im getting at. If you a Guardian can not use melee who the hell can. that is our class we should be in first followed by any wars holding the line. Am i playing my class wrong?

Some fights in dungeons are much, much easier when done ranged. Some fights are flat out impossible in melee. Some fights are possible, but you spend so much time running you might as well just range them (I’m thinking of the ranger fight in AC Story here).

There’s nothing wrong with using a scepter. It’s good DPS (when it hits) and swapping to it for certain fights or situations is fine, trying to attack people on a wall with a staff won’t get you anywhere in WvW but you can clear a wall off with smite alone.

There are quite a few situations where not having a ranged option puts you at a disadvantage and the scepter is our only ranged weapon (the range on staff means it operates more like a melee weapon).

How many times have you seen a player trying to face tank a boss while standing in red circles only for them to go down and need a rez? Sometimes there is no option but to back off and using scepter in these situations means you can still dish dmg while at a distance.

You sell the benefit of staff but against a single target especially a static one like most mobs the scepter actually dishes out a lot more dmg than a staff.

I have recently been running with staff as main and scepter/focus as my secondary mainly because staff is an excellent aoe weapon against groups and works well with an AH build, but with a melee weapon in the secondary I have less options.

A full bunker guardian with hammer or mace may offer more heals to the group but will be dealing a lot less dmg and less might stacks, I’m not saying either option is better or worse but the scepter is a very underrated weapon.

AgentChaos.4932:

why cant you support the team when using scepter? if i want to shout i’ll just move near my team mates then pop the shouts, then i’ll go back out and attack from range.
beside at high fractal, melee is pretty suicidal

Nah. Level 42 here, relatively tanky Guardian ( 17k HP, 2.9k armor ) and I melee 80% of the time. Not to boast, mind you.

You’re not playing the class wrong. You are, however, absolutely wrong for assuming that other Guardians are doing it wrong by using a weapon that Anet made available to our class.

May i remind us Guardians that we are one of two heavy armor classes the one of them 2 that has the best damage mitigating skills. if we are saying that fights can not be melee what does that say about the game, I do use scepter but not to sound like i’m having a go but i use it when i’m being lazy. Yes i am always lazy when i fight GL(lupi)lol. but come on i run a balanced zerker soldiers mix and melee anywhere i go.

A Guardian with a scepter is just a let down to any party. Come on if a mob moves you lose 100% of your burst dmg and that burst dmg is low at best mace auto attack can hit for more in a single attack than what smite hits for in total.

Devils.3679:

May i remind us Guardians that we are one of two heavy armor classes the one of them 2 that has the best damage mitigating skills. if we are saying that fights can not be melee what does that say about the game, I do use scepter but not to sound like i’m having a go but i use it when i’m being lazy. Yes i am always lazy when i fight GL(lupi)lol. but come on i run a balanced zerker soldiers mix and melee anywhere i go.

A Guardian with a scepter is just a let down to any party. Come on if a mob moves you lose 100% of your burst dmg and that burst dmg is low at best mace auto attack can hit for more in a single attack than what smite hits for in total.

You my friend are a lost cause.

Devils.3679:

May i remind us Guardians that we are one of two heavy armor classes the one of them 2 that has the best damage mitigating skills. if we are saying that fights can not be melee what does that say about the game, I do use scepter but not to sound like i’m having a go but i use it when i’m being lazy. Yes i am always lazy when i fight GL(lupi)lol. but come on i run a balanced zerker soldiers mix and melee anywhere i go.

A Guardian with a scepter is just a let down to any party. Come on if a mob moves you lose 100% of your burst dmg and that burst dmg is low at best mace auto attack can hit for more in a single attack than what smite hits for in total.

Uhhhh. 100% of your burst? You must not run torch offhand very often.

>implying torch has better DPS than autoattacking

As far as I understand, Anet has designed melee to be higher in damage compared to ranged because melee has more risks involved, while range gets more comfort by distance. I won’t go so far to say it’s wrong, but I will claim that it is not optimal if DPS is what you want (taking survivability out of the equation for a second). Scepter provides a nice comfort zone until you realize that you can do better.

OP, you kinda answered your own question. Guardians primarily using ranged are likely doing it because they’re not used to meleeing the content. However, there are certain situations where I do use a scepter (i.e. dredge fractal endboss when most of team doesn’t have good AR or maybe on objects that are on walls). I melee almost everything on my guardian (even Giganticus Lupicus) and switch to scepter for specific encounters. My main set is GS/Staff, but I swap for any combination of hammer, focus, shield, sword, or scepter when it can give me better options for the current encounter.

There are certain encounters where I agree scepter is completely bad and I think guardians seriously need to realize it. The Magg defense room in CoF p2 is an example. Why would you use a single target weapon in a room where you’re being pressured by multiple mobs and your attacks can suffer from extreme interference? Smite is a distributive AoE, meaning its individual ticks does not hit all targets in the area at the same time, so it’s like hitting individual targets with single target hits. Your only useful skill here on scepter would be the immobilize on scepter 3, but then again, the hammer does it much better since it’s a linear AoE immobilize.

I think it’s fine to use scepter on a boss (since it’s single target) if you’re still not comfortable melee’ing, but when dealing with multiple mobs, you’re slowing the group down for the reasons mentioned above, and you’re potentially making the encounter more difficult for yourself than it needs to be. I’ll admit that I used to range a lot when I was new, but once I learned how to dodge, counter, or negate the appropriate hits, meleeing became easier and more efficient.

When I’m in a PuG playing an alt, I do get a bit annoyed when the guardian on the team (only heavy on team) is just sceptering an easy boss when it would be more helpful if he/she melee’d the boss to keep it in place. I’ve taken the liberty to learn how to melee with any profession in case of situations like this. I could lash out at every person that sceptered an easy boss while on a guardian, but I have no idea what their personal experience level is or how comfortable they are with melee. The important thing with a PuG is that they have a way to stay alive and keep their damage constant rather than flopping around and dying doing something their unfamiliar with. If it’s a guild or friend who WANTS to improve their capabilities, then you can bet I’ll do my best to encourage them to come out of their “range-only” shell.

>implying that people that use scepters only use scepters and nothing else ever

foofad.5162:

>implying torch has better DPS than autoattacking

A) he said burst, overall sustained dps auto attack is higher than any other damage ability
B) try torch #4 sometime, one of the highest single target burst a guardian has (only second to maybe a well done ZD)

I can only speak for myself as i find myself rocking scepter/shield, mace/focus with depending on situation i switch out my 1 set for a hammer for cc, but i think all to many times ppl will try to answer these question, with facts and match and science, which is always the right way, but no one ever takes into account that most players that use things that aren’t neccessarily as good as other weapons, if nothing more than just what is called “player preference” which means everyone is going to to run what they feel is the most fun or brings them enjoyment. You cant always judge a player because he might run a diff opinion of a build then you, because there will always be players that will play the game that some may find “politically incorrect” for no other reason than thats simply the way they like to play^^ in my opinion i have maybe only once carried a torch O.o? but yet i see alot of guards running it all i can say is to each his own.

Bakitten291:

foofad.5162:

>implying torch has better DPS than autoattacking

A) he said burst, overall sustained dps auto attack is higher than any other damage ability
B) try torch #4 sometime, one of the highest single target burst a guardian has (only second to maybe a well done ZD)

Torch 4 takes a second to cast with its animation. Sword autoattack takes one and a half seconds. If you add a full sword attack cycle’s worth of damage and take two thirds of it, it slightly out-damages torch 4. In other words, the only thing worthwhile about torch 4 is the burning, and since you have Virtue of Justice anyway it’s basically pointless. Its only saving grace is being ranged… but it’s a projectile and can be blocked and reflected as such. Scepter hits just as hard due to its fast attack speed. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about burst damage or DPS if the time-frame is the same and you deal the same amount of damage. Torch also doesn’t have a dedicated damage multiplier trait, so it’s even further behind in damage than what I said if you pick up the Sword or Scepter power traits.

Torch 5 does less than a third of the damage in its 4.25 second cast than autoattacking does, and it doesn’t even cleave 5 targets like a regular AOE, it only hits 3.

Lastly, where burst damage is most important is in short fights and PvP. Burst damage is meaningless against bosses and large groups of trash. Since we’re talking about PvE here, burst is much less important than sustained damage.

In summary: Torch is bad, don’t use it.

Wolfheart.1938:

AgentChaos.4932:

why cant you support the team when using scepter? if i want to shout i’ll just move near my team mates then pop the shouts, then i’ll go back out and attack from range.
beside at high fractal, melee is pretty suicidal

Nah. Level 42 here, relatively tanky Guardian ( 17k HP, 2.9k armor ) and I melee 80% of the time. Not to boast, mind you.

For a moment there I completely spaced that you were talking about Fractal level 42 and was thinking…“how in the hell does a level 42 Guardian have 17K HP and 2.9K Armor????”. LOL…

In the Living Story dungeon, with the final two bosses, I found it necessary to switch to scepters/focus from my normal greatsword in order to survive. I would go in and melee a bit but would have to back out and swap while my heals came off of cd, then rinse and repeat.

As far as keeping a boss in place it only works if the Guardian has the highest armor class in the group. MoBs tend to go after the person with the highest ac first. That is the only real aggro control there is in the game.

Phaedryn.3698:

Wolfheart.1938:

AgentChaos.4932:

why cant you support the team when using scepter? if i want to shout i’ll just move near my team mates then pop the shouts, then i’ll go back out and attack from range.
beside at high fractal, melee is pretty suicidal

Nah. Level 42 here, relatively tanky Guardian ( 17k HP, 2.9k armor ) and I melee 80% of the time. Not to boast, mind you.

For a moment there I completely spaced that you were talking about Fractal level 42 and was thinking…“how in the hell does a level 42 Guardian have 17K HP and 2.9K Armor????”. LOL…

Yeah, I never understood why people call it levels when the game labels them as scales. Sometimes when people start sentences like “When I’m on my level x profession,….”, it’s hard to tell if they’re trying to refer to fractals when no context is given.

foofad.5162:

Bakitten291:

foofad.5162:

>implying torch has better DPS than autoattacking

A) he said burst, overall sustained dps auto attack is higher than any other damage ability
B) try torch #4 sometime, one of the highest single target burst a guardian has (only second to maybe a well done ZD)

Torch 4 takes a second to cast with its animation. Sword autoattack takes one and a half seconds. If you add a full sword attack cycle’s worth of damage and take two thirds of it, it slightly out-damages torch 4. In other words, the only thing worthwhile about torch 4 is the burning, and since you have Virtue of Justice anyway it’s basically pointless. Its only saving grace is being ranged… but it’s a projectile and can be blocked and reflected as such. Scepter hits just as hard due to its fast attack speed. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about burst damage or DPS if the time-frame is the same and you deal the same amount of damage. Torch also doesn’t have a dedicated damage multiplier trait, so it’s even further behind in damage than what I said if you pick up the Sword or Scepter power traits.

Torch 5 does less than a third of the damage in its 4.25 second cast than autoattacking does, and it doesn’t even cleave 5 targets like a regular AOE, it only hits 3.

Lastly, where burst damage is most important is in short fights and PvP. Burst damage is meaningless against bosses and large groups of trash. Since we’re talking about PvE here, burst is much less important than sustained damage.

In summary: Torch is bad, don’t use it.

First off, sword AA takes 2.5 seconds to complete its chain. same as GS, the only difference is the number of hits. Second, Sword AA #3 is actually considered projectiles and can be blocked and reflected as well so even then that falls into the same catagory as torch throw.

Third, I just tested this in the mists. 3k damage crit with my torch throw on a heavy golem 1.2k same target, same set up with sword auto attack crit. even with 2 sword auto attacks (which would take longer than the torch throw) you still do not equal the damage of torch throw. Even with the power traits, it still would not catch up in damage.

So yes, it is more burst damage. And to which I repeat, he said burst damage, not sustained dps.

foofad.5162:

Bakitten291:

foofad.5162:

>implying torch has better DPS than autoattacking

A) he said burst, overall sustained dps auto attack is higher than any other damage ability
B) try torch #4 sometime, one of the highest single target burst a guardian has (only second to maybe a well done ZD)

Torch 4 takes a second to cast with its animation. Sword autoattack takes one and a half seconds. If you add a full sword attack cycle’s worth of damage and take two thirds of it, it slightly out-damages torch 4. In other words, the only thing worthwhile about torch 4 is the burning, and since you have Virtue of Justice anyway it’s basically pointless. Its only saving grace is being ranged… but it’s a projectile and can be blocked and reflected as such. Scepter hits just as hard due to its fast attack speed. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking about burst damage or DPS if the time-frame is the same and you deal the same amount of damage. Torch also doesn’t have a dedicated damage multiplier trait, so it’s even further behind in damage than what I said if you pick up the Sword or Scepter power traits.

Torch 5 does less than a third of the damage in its 4.25 second cast than autoattacking does, and it doesn’t even cleave 5 targets like a regular AOE, it only hits 3.

Lastly, where burst damage is most important is in short fights and PvP. Burst damage is meaningless against bosses and large groups of trash. Since we’re talking about PvE here, burst is much less important than sustained damage.

In summary: Torch is bad, don’t use it.

Wow, no. Torch is good in both pve and pvp. #4 works like a shout in that you can start up the initial self-ignition while mid-channel of cleansing flame or what have you, and cleansing flame itself I’ve had it hit up to 9k damage in both pve and pvp. If you want to make things even more fun, if using scepter / torch use the immobilize #3, then immeditately after smite then cleansing flames. Damage counters for days. Also that combo will make any glass cannon player in pvp poop themself from the amount of damage hitting them at once from a single person.

Why are people talking Torch? i started this thread to get other guardians like Lightrayne.7829 to say yes people scepter is bad(99% of the time). i know Anet put it in so new player could get use to the game and learn how fights worked(Yes i did this also). I just want to encourage players to say “Hey i’m a melee class and that its how i will learn to play to benefit my team”. If it dungeon dps you want why are people talking sword torch? GS/staff delivers the most substained AoE dps with the right build. With dungeons AoE is what you want and i can still hit for over 10k on single target. Thats without full zerker as we need to stay on our feet.

It takes 2.5 seconds to complete it’s chain, yes. That’s including the full begin and end animation times. But there’s only a half a second between the actual hits. Hit 1 happens almost instantly, hit 2 happens half a second later, cools down, hit 3 happens half a second after that. All told, from first damage to last damage, is one and a half seconds. You can sanity-check this by actually looking at the tooltips – First swing has no cast time because it’s instant (but does have an animation before damage is applied and it can be interrupted). Second swing has half a second cast time, third has half a second cast time, and then what isn’t show is the wind-down animation at the end of Sword Wave.

But we don’t care about chains, we care about burst, as you said. And when you compare the damage values, Sword slightly edges out Torch in terms of how much damage is applied in the one second it takes to activate, cast, and lob Torch 4. We know this, again, thanks to the tooltips. With a Berserker amulet and no traits, Sword Arc and Sword of Wrath do 562 damage, and Sword Wave does 1053 (each projectile doing one third of that). Add it, multiply it by .66 (because we only care about two thirds of that because our time frame is one second) and you get 1436 and change. The tooltip on Torch 4 is 1422.

So no, it’s not more burst damage. It’s virtually the same, or less if you’re being critical. It’s even doubly less because no one, in reality, is going to interrupt their sword auto attack.

And Torch 5 is still terrible.

Devils.3679:

Why are people talking Torch? i started this thread to get other guardians like Lightrayne.7829 to say yes people scepter is bad(99% of the time). i know Anet put it in so new player could get use to the game and learn how fights worked(Yes i did this also). I just want to encourage players to say “Hey i’m a melee class and that its how i will learn to play to benefit my team”. If it dungeon dps you want why are people talking sword torch? GS/staff delivers the most substained AoE dps with the right build. With dungeons AoE is what you want and i can still hit for over 10k on single target. Thats without full zerker as we need to stay on our feet.

Look, I’ve been playing Guardian for about a thousand hours now, since BWE2. If you don’t have a scepter in your inventory, you are ridiculous. Every guardian should have one. It’s extremely useful. You don’t have to use it all the time, but it’s fine for what it is, which is a ranged option for those fights where ranged is a better idea. I don’t understand why you need to go on a crusade about it. Maybe it doesn’t fit with your idea of what a guardian is supposed to be. But the reality is it serves a purpose and if you completely disown it you’re hurting yourself, not helping anyone else.

Devils.3679:

Why are people talking Torch? i started this thread to get other guardians like Lightrayne.7829 to say yes people scepter is bad(99% of the time). i know Anet put it in so new player could get use to the game and learn how fights worked(Yes i did this also). I just want to encourage players to say “Hey i’m a melee class and that its how i will learn to play to benefit my team”. If it dungeon dps you want why are people talking sword torch? GS/staff delivers the most substained AoE dps with the right build. With dungeons AoE is what you want and i can still hit for over 10k on single target. Thats without full zerker as we need to stay on our feet.

Because scepter is completely fine? Why force people to play melee when they can pretty much do the same with a ranged weapon? If you only made a thread to get people to agree with you on principal alone, then why make the thread? You had to know people would disagree. (And I am sorry about the torch tangent, but all offhands must also be considered when we are comparing a 1h weapon to 2h weapons.)

foofad.5162:

Devils.3679:

Why are people talking Torch? i started this thread to get other guardians like Lightrayne.7829 to say yes people scepter is bad(99% of the time). i know Anet put it in so new player could get use to the game and learn how fights worked(Yes i did this also). I just want to encourage players to say “Hey i’m a melee class and that its how i will learn to play to benefit my team”. If it dungeon dps you want why are people talking sword torch? GS/staff delivers the most substained AoE dps with the right build. With dungeons AoE is what you want and i can still hit for over 10k on single target. Thats without full zerker as we need to stay on our feet.

Look, I’ve been playing Guardian for about a thousand hours now, since BWE2. If you don’t have a scepter in your inventory, you are ridiculous. Every guardian should have one. It’s extremely useful. You don’t have to use it all the time, but it’s fine for what it is, which is a ranged option for those fights where ranged is a better idea. I don’t understand why you need to go on a crusade about it. Maybe it doesn’t fit with your idea of what a guardian is supposed to be. But the reality is it serves a purpose and if you completely disown it you’re hurting yourself, not helping anyone else.

The OP states that he does use a scepter on occasion. I think he’s trying to question why people use it as a PRIMARY weapon of choice, especially when it is highly inferior against multiple mobs.

Sometimes, when we have no other heavies on my PuG team, I get ticked off that I have to carry the guardian’s weight when we fight multiple trash mobs (as an example) that we can’t skip. The guardian’s auto attack w/ scepter is ineffective because it can’t consistently hit the intended target due to the interference of moving mobs. The immobilize is useless as you only root a single target. Smite is distributive AoE, which is basically the same thing as hitting each target one at a time with an auto attack. In this scenario, which happens a lot in dungeons, how is the guardian being helpful aside from staying alive? Wouldn’t controlling the mobs with a GS pull + hammer ring of warding make it easier for your team to cleave/AoE the mobs to death versus chasing the mobs with chaotic kiting?

Again, when it comes to PuGs, I’ve just resorted to biting the bullet and trying to outplay them in a way that helps the team. When a PuG plays like that, they’re pretty much leeching (unless, of course, they’re new, trying to adjust to the dungeon). If it becomes habit, it almost seems as if they don’t care that they’re making us do more work in what’s supposed to be a team effort. I dislike using hammer and staff as it’s not my style, but I use them accordingly if it gives my team a strategic advantage. Not contributing your best effort as a guardian by refusing to use the appropriate weapons/skils/major traits for the scenario is like not passing the ball to a teammate in an attempt to score a goal in sports.

Bakitten291:

Because scepter is completely fine? Why force people to play melee when they can pretty much do the same with a ranged weapon? If you only made a thread to get people to agree with you on principal alone, then why make the thread? You had to know people would disagree. (And I am sorry about the torch tangent, but all offhands must also be considered when we are comparing a 1h weapon to 2h weapons.)

Melee damage was designed (stated by Anet) to deal more damage than ranged because of the risk involved. Does a scepter hit 3 targets at the same time with an auto attack? No. Does a scepter pull multiple mobs together or keep them in place? They can root one in place, so mostly no.

Examples:
GS

• AoE blind
• Retaliation field with AoE dmg
• Auto attack cleaves + might on end chain
• AoE DoT that can be triggered if pull is needed
• Bursty AoE attack

Hammer

• Auto attack cleaves + pulsing damage symbol with protection
• Quick cd on AoE spike
• linear AoE immobilize (much more effective than scepter’s)
• has a knockback if isolated mob needs to be pushed into group
• ring of warding keeps stacked mobs in place for optimal AoE dmg

Why use scepter over these options? How can you pretty much do this with a scepter?

He’s questioning the reasoning behind people using the scepter as a PRIMARY weapon for everything when the other weapons have a greater advantage across the board. The scepter does have its uses, but it shouldn’t be habit as a primary weapon when trying to work with a team in most scenarios, otherwise you’re pretty much leeching.

foofad.5162:

It takes 2.5 seconds to complete it’s chain, yes. That’s including the full begin and end animation times. But there’s only a half a second between the actual hits. Hit 1 happens almost instantly, hit 2 happens half a second later, cools down, hit 3 happens half a second after that. All told, from first damage to last damage, is one and a half seconds. You can sanity-check this by actually looking at the tooltips – First swing has no cast time because it’s instant (but does have an animation before damage is applied and it can be interrupted). Second swing has half a second cast time, third has half a second cast time, and then what isn’t show is the wind-down animation at the end of Sword Wave.

But we don’t care about chains, we care about burst, as you said. And when you compare the damage values, Sword slightly edges out Torch in terms of how much damage is applied in the one second it takes to activate, cast, and lob Torch 4. We know this, again, thanks to the tooltips. With a Berserker amulet and no traits, Sword Arc and Sword of Wrath do 562 damage, and Sword Wave does 1053 (each projectile doing one third of that). Add it, multiply it by .66 (because we only care about two thirds of that because our time frame is one second) and you get 1436 and change. The tooltip on Torch 4 is 1422.

So no, it’s not more burst damage. It’s virtually the same, or less if you’re being critical. It’s even doubly less because no one, in reality, is going to interrupt their sword auto attack.

And Torch 5 is still terrible.

Yay math!

So, 1200 (rounding up) with the first 2 auto attacks, 1650 total with AA #3

2400+1650= 4050

4050 × .66 = 2673

2673 vs 3000… (btw going on tooltips is bad mmmmkay?)

Don’t make me compare it to scepter AA in the same situation too, because yeah, its way less.

No, going off of tooltips is not bad. The tooltips don’t lie. Most of them, anyway.

Tooltip damage = (average weapon damage * ability coefficient * power)/armor. Tooltips use 2600 as reference armor. This is the amount of damage you will do, on average. There will be high swings and low swings due to the damage range of your weapon, which is why your damage varies from swing to swing. If you want to compare abilities, comparing them by the tooltips is absolutely appropriate, unless the tooltip is wrong – and a couple are, but not these. Comparing actual hits using non-steady weapons will introduce variation. If you were to compare thousands of real non-critical hits, they would eventually average out to what the tooltip says, assuming you’re hitting a target with 2600 armor. The heavy target golem I beleive has 2600, but I’m not sure.

Speaking of ranged LoL I was recently kick from a party facing Lupi. I had scepter/torch. The idiot that kick me out told me the guardian suppose to melee Lupi. Then ofc I was in CS. The fact of the matter is sometime us guardian need to range we cant always melee. Dnt get me wrong I love melee but there comes a time you cant always do that.

It’s obvious that some fights require scepter, no ones arguing against that. The complaint here is of players who use scepter as a primary, even for fights that would clearly be quicker if they used melee

Rainie.7154:

Speaking of ranged LoL I was recently kick from a party facing Lupi. I had scepter/torch. The idiot that kick me out told me the guardian suppose to melee Lupi. Then ofc I was in CS. The fact of the matter is sometime us guardian need to range we cant always melee. Dnt get me wrong I love melee but there comes a time you cant always do that.

You might have been in phase 2 where melee stacking makes the fight much easier (more difficult if ranged). If you fight ranged, Lupi invulns and teleports too much, which severely reduces team DPS. When Lupi does his projectiles spray, if you’re all melee stacking, it’s all directed underneath him so that the mesmer can reflect them and protect the team. If you range, it sprays everywhere and it makes it more difficult to avoid getting downed. Also, when melee stacking, you as the guardian can use aegis to help the team block Lupi’s melee swipe (launches team in several directions).

During phase 3, if you stay melee, you can use wall of reflection to block his forward multi shot attack when it happens. If you stay ranged when he’s not doing any of his special attacks, he hurls a more damaging ranged auto attack. If you stay melee, he sticks to his special attacks (of course, you have to run away temporarily from the lift attack).

Lupi IS one of those bosses that is easy to melee once you learn how to avoid/negate all the relevant special attacks. I did range him when I was new to Arah, but I learned that ranging makes it more difficult for a team that wants to do the melee strategy. I just thought I’d make it clear why he requested you to melee stack. Anyways, this post is arguing against players who use scepter as a PRIMARY weapon in situations where it’s clearly inferior (such as fighting a group of mobs). In your case, you were probably using it as a recovery method or you didn’t understand the encounter as much (I’m just guessing here) rather than a primary weapon.

Just from personal experience here (take some salt grains here), but I’ve seen some Guardians that main a scepter that could embarrass anyone using any other weapon.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Just from personal experience here (take some salt grains here), but I’ve seen some Guardians that main a scepter that could embarrass anyone using any other weapon.

True story

And like many other said, it’s obvious Guardian also needs a ranged weapon. There are some bosses you just can’t melee and not be squished often, so you have to have a viable option for those situations

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Just from personal experience here (take some salt grains here), but I’ve seen some Guardians that main a scepter that could embarrass anyone using any other weapon.

You need to explain more here. What have you seen? a scepter main being last man alive kiting around for an hour and killing a boss? like this is what we are talking about. If that guys spent more time with a mace/shield eg, Maybe his team wouldn’t wiped.

foofad.5162:

Devils.3679:

Why are people talking Torch? i started this thread to get other guardians like Lightrayne.7829 to say yes people scepter is bad(99% of the time). i know Anet put it in so new player could get use to the game and learn how fights worked(Yes i did this also). I just want to encourage players to say “Hey i’m a melee class and that its how i will learn to play to benefit my team”. If it dungeon dps you want why are people talking sword torch? GS/staff delivers the most substained AoE dps with the right build. With dungeons AoE is what you want and i can still hit for over 10k on single target. Thats without full zerker as we need to stay on our feet.

Look, I’ve been playing Guardian for about a thousand hours now, since BWE2. If you don’t have a scepter in your inventory, you are ridiculous. Every guardian should have one. It’s extremely useful. You don’t have to use it all the time, but it’s fine for what it is, which is a ranged option for those fights where ranged is a better idea. I don’t understand why you need to go on a crusade about it. Maybe it doesn’t fit with your idea of what a guardian is supposed to be. But the reality is it serves a purpose and if you completely disown it you’re hurting yourself, not helping anyone else.

Scepter is kinda mandatory at fractal 40+, melee is simply suicide on those levels. I know theres a guy claiming with average hp and armor meleeing 80% of the time on frac 42 which is utter bullkitten and downright misinformation. Or he must be speaking of swamp/jellyfish lol.

People have been full ascended bunkering with 24k hp and 3700 armor and perma prot and still only 30-40% melee of the time. GG

That said… scepter is viable in pve and useless in pvp/wvw. Check page 2/3 on a thread with a name “Scepters broken autoattack”. Even has a dev in it that claimed to check it out.

Lightrayne.7829:

Rainie.7154:

Speaking of ranged LoL I was recently kick from a party facing Lupi. I had scepter/torch. The idiot that kick me out told me the guardian suppose to melee Lupi. Then ofc I was in CS. The fact of the matter is sometime us guardian need to range we cant always melee. Dnt get me wrong I love melee but there comes a time you cant always do that.

You might have been in phase 2 where melee stacking makes the fight much easier (more difficult if ranged). If you fight ranged, Lupi invulns and teleports too much, which severely reduces team DPS. When Lupi does his projectiles spray, if you’re all melee stacking, it’s all directed underneath him so that the mesmer can reflect them and protect the team. If you range, it sprays everywhere and it makes it more difficult to avoid getting downed. Also, when melee stacking, you as the guardian can use aegis to help the team block Lupi’s melee swipe (launches team in several directions).

During phase 3, if you stay melee, you can use wall of reflection to block his forward multi shot attack when it happens. If you stay ranged when he’s not doing any of his special attacks, he hurls a more damaging ranged auto attack. If you stay melee, he sticks to his special attacks (of course, you have to run away temporarily from the lift attack).

Lupi IS one of those bosses that is easy to melee once you learn how to avoid/negate all the relevant special attacks. I did range him when I was new to Arah, but I learned that ranging makes it more difficult for a team that wants to do the melee strategy. I just thought I’d make it clear why he requested you to melee stack. Anyways, this post is arguing against players who use scepter as a PRIMARY weapon in situations where it’s clearly inferior (such as fighting a group of mobs). In your case, you were probably using it as a recovery method or you didn’t understand the encounter as much (I’m just guessing here) rather than a primary weapon.

Well ty for the tip and I sure will use that to for me and my pug advantage. But no we was still in phase 1 I run Arah everyday so I do know the up and end abt Lupi at phase 2 i only melee if we have a well known mesmer player. Phase 3 for sure its 100% melee. But again thx again.

Sandra Martino.3870:

That said… scepter is viable in pve and useless in pvp/wvw. Check page 2/3 on a thread with a name “Scepters broken autoattack”. Even has a dev in it that claimed to check it out.

Scepter’s autoattack is pretty whacky don’t get me wrong, but it is in no way useless in pvp. A kitten near insta-cast immobilize, and a very fast recharge ground aoe is invaluable at making people panic and use up dodge rolls so you can land your other moves. I’d take scepter over staff any day of the week for both pve and pvp.

scepter/staff will be the new generations of guardians in wvw lol

shield for big fights
focus for small fights
torch for solo fights

Rainie.7154:

Well ty for the tip and I sure will use that to for me and my pug advantage. But no we was still in phase 1 I run Arah everyday so I do know the up and end abt Lupi at phase 2 i only melee if we have a well known mesmer player. Phase 3 for sure its 100% melee. But again thx again.

Ah, I see. In phase 1, for the melee strategy, it’s typically best to stay next to Lupi and dodge his kick and grub summon (IF you know the tells). Even if the locusts down you, at least your teammates “should” be able to pick you up quickly, since you’re next to them in melee. Also, at melee, your team’s cleave attacks should thin down the locusts quickly.

I’ll agree that it’s best to range Lupi if you have not yet learned the tells (safe grub kill and you won’t get hit by every attack), so I guess, in this scenario, the kicker is at fault if he didn’t even specify he wanted the melee strategy in his LFG ad or something. He’s playing with a PuG, so he needs to make that clear to anyone he invites, otherwise he’s wasting your time and his own time.

Anyways, this isn’t the type of scepter behavior some of us are arguing against. You clearly acknowledge the importance of melee compared to the people that purposely choose to be ignorant. Heck, even I sceptered Lupicus when I was first learning his tells, but now, meleeing him is pretty easy (I use GS with sword/shield on switch).