Remove weapon swap from firebrand
Also a route to go, would love it.
Make the axe auto 300 ranged, the symbol 900 ranged jump with symbol when landing and 600 range on skill 3.
Remove cd on tomes to compensate for one weapon only and global usage of pages.
Great, good to go…
Enough of these half measures, if you want to build this round of elite specs with trade-offs, then focus on the new mechanic that is tomes, and make them an integral part of the elite spec, not an afterthought.
Sadly, it’s clear from the design that tomes were added as an afterthought. So instead of the weapon and utilities being designed around tomes, tomes got designed around the clunky axe and mantras. The result is the firebland.
Also a route to go, would love it.
Make the axe auto 300 ranged, the symbol 900 ranged jump with symbol when landing and 600 range on skill 3.
Remove cd on tomes to compensate for one weapon only and global usage of pages.
Great, good to go…
My issue with the axe is the cast time on the symbol, I don’t think they need to change any skills.
A good place to add a short range teleport would be #3 on tome of resolve, Azure Sun, so that it’s always accessible for firebrand regardless of weapon and since it feels like a bland skill.
My issue with the axe is the cast time on the symbol, I don’t think they need to change any skills.
Yeah, it’s especially ironic that they added a tiny daze to the traited version of the symbol, but it’s totally wasted because the wind up is so slow. “Wait for it … I’ll interrupt you in just a sec … ahhhhhhh — NOW!”
Honestly wasn’t even interested in Firebrand and didnt get a chance to test it but after seening WP’s demo video, I’m definitely going to aim for a maximised tomes Firebrand. I hope they don’t get nerfed into uselessness and definitely feel they could sacrifice weapon swap for a slight buff to F3 (heard that one was lacking) and some improvements to mantras (a PBAoe mantra trait maybe?).
Also a route to go, would love it.
Make the axe auto 300 ranged, the symbol 900 ranged jump with symbol when landing and 600 range on skill 3.
Remove cd on tomes to compensate for one weapon only and global usage of pages.
Great, good to go…
My issue with the axe is the cast time on the symbol, I don’t think they need to change any skills.
A good place to add a short range teleport would be #3 on tome of resolve, Azure Sun, so that it’s always accessible for firebrand regardless of weapon and since it feels like a bland skill.
If we trade weapon swap i believe the axe has to be some what ranged for it to work with FB. Not the tomes but the mantras screams “mid ranged weapon”.
I would prefer the teleport on a mantra instead, 600 leap with three charges and that the mantra elite reset cd and recharged all mantras on the third charge. As it stands now all will go with RF as elite to recharge the tomes.
Adding in even more functionality (blick) in the tomes would even more force us to once again use RF.
Also a route to go, would love it.
Make the axe auto 300 ranged, the symbol 900 ranged jump with symbol when landing and 600 range on skill 3.
Remove cd on tomes to compensate for one weapon only and global usage of pages.
Great, good to go…
Can’t remove cooldowns because of other traitlines that pop stuff when we activate profession F mechanics.
Need to have CD on them.
To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of removing weapon swap for Firebrands, and there’s one simple reason for that. Not everyone who takes firebrands wants to build into or use tomes exclusively. Some might want to focus on more core builds but supported by Firebrand traits (for example, I can see quickness focused builds that focus less on tomes being a thing).
One thing we need in this game is more build options, not less, and pigeonholing players into using tomes more exclusively is not the way to go.
That being said, one viable alternative I could see being implemented is a trait that causes you to lose weapon swap, but greatly reduces tome cooldown. That way, those who want to focus more exclusively on tomes can do so, while those who don’t can keep their versatility and simply avoid said trait.
My personal opinion, however, is that tomes should simply get a cooldown reduction, without any sacrifices to accommodate it (nothing too severe, but enough to make Tome of Resolve and Courage more usable). As it is, you already sacrifice a lot simply by activating the tome because of their very focused skill sets (for example using tome of justice means losing access to defensive tools, etc, while using tome of courage of resolve means losing access to damage).
(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)
Also a route to go, would love it.
Make the axe auto 300 ranged, the symbol 900 ranged jump with symbol when landing and 600 range on skill 3.
Remove cd on tomes to compensate for one weapon only and global usage of pages.
Great, good to go…
Can’t remove cooldowns because of other traitlines that pop stuff when we activate profession F mechanics.
Need to have CD on them.
Ofc we can, just set internal cooldowns on those things that triggers on activation.
Or set the cooldown on swapping, lets say you can only swap every 5s. If the amount of retal/might/aegis/protection is to much just balance the duration/stacking in FB. Just like they actually have done in tome CD that are increased in fb compared to vanilla.
It a matter of will, not that it cant be done.
To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of removing weapon swap for Firebrands, and there’s one simple reason for that. Not everyone who takes firebrands wants to build into or use tomes exclusively. Some might want to focus on more core builds but supported by Firebrand traits (for example, I can see quickness focused builds that focus less on tomes being a thing).
One thing we need in this game is more build options, not less, and pigeonholing players into using tomes more exclusively is not the way to go.
That being said, one viable alternative I could see being implemented is a trait that causes you to lose weapon swap, but greatly reduces tome cooldown. That way, those who want to focus more exclusively on tomes can do so, while those who don’t can keep their versatility and simply avoid said trait.
My personal opinion, however, is that tomes should simply get a cooldown reduction, without any sacrifices to accommodate it (nothing too severe, but enough to make Tome of Resolve and Courage more usable). As it is, you already sacrifice a lot simply by activating the tome because of their very focused skill sets (for example using tome of justice means losing access to defensive tools, etc, while using tome of courage of resolve means losing access to damage).
i agree with your post that it might be bad forcing people to skip swap.
I find your suggestion interesting that it can be done with a trait but the cd-reduction has to be rather big if its implemented so there can be some interesting cycles in the swapping.
(edited by Brutaly.6257)
i agree with your post that it might be bad forcing people to skip swap.
I find your suggestion interesting that it can be done with a trait but the cd-reduction has to be rather big if its implemented so there can be some interesting cycles in the swapping.
I actually thought of another possible idea with regards to how tomes could be implemented. I don’t necessarily consider this idea to be better than the current implementation, but I do think it is a unique alternative.
The idea is to give all tomes the same low cooldown (maybe 10 seconds). To compensate for this, the page mechanic for tomes would change, and instead of each tome getting its own set of pages every time they activate, all tomes share the same page charges.
Pages themselves would no longer refresh each time you summon a tome, but instead, your total page pool, which is now universally shared, would gradually recharge over time, with 1 page being added every few seconds.
This way, tomes are no longer limited by long cooldowns, but rather by the number of pages you have at any given time (in this sense, it’s similar to the initiative mechanic for thieves). This means you could quickly pop into a tome and activate a single skill if needed, and then go out, or you could stay in it for longer if you want to use a few pages in a row. The skill rotations would certainly become more interesting, and you could also adjust some of the cooldowns for the tome skills themselves to maintain balance. Alternatively, you could maintain the current skill cooldowns, but make it so that more powerful skills require more pages to cast.
The main issues with this suggestion are that you’d need to re-balance traits activated on tome activation to accommodate the much lower cooldowns on tomes, and it would render the elite “Renewed Focus” rather pointless for Firebrands, though this could be amended simply by adding additional functionality to the skill (for example, make it so that Renewed Focus also instantly refreshes your ‘page’ charges for firebrand).
In the end, I do actually understand why the current implementation exists (because it offers a new play style without interrupting or destroying existing traits or skills). Still, I do find this idea rather interesting.
(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)
If they do that with no weapon swapping axe should have dmg like scrapper’s hammer. F’s than need to be instant and vastly op.
this is actually interesting :\
1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.
From a pve prospective is not like we have some weapon alternative to axe/torch as a condition weapon, so maybe change the last grandmaster trait Loremaster in something like “you lose weapon swap and reduce in half the cd of the tome (cd of the skill and cd of the tome)”.
Or something like “whenever you use a page(or mantra) reduce the cooldown of the tome you’re not using by x second”
And being a trait you can take it or not.
To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of removing weapon swap for Firebrands, and there’s one simple reason for that. Not everyone who takes firebrands wants to build into or use tomes exclusively. Some might want to focus on more core builds but supported by Firebrand traits (for example, I can see quickness focused builds that focus less on tomes being a thing).
One thing we need in this game is more build options, not less, and pigeonholing players into using tomes more exclusively is not the way to go.
That being said, one viable alternative I could see being implemented is a trait that causes you to lose weapon swap, but greatly reduces tome cooldown. That way, those who want to focus more exclusively on tomes can do so, while those who don’t can keep their versatility and simply avoid said trait.
I don’t agree with that, the spec doesn’t have to be the right for everyone, it’s already geared towards conditions over power, so it will not be compatible with all core builds. But we are talking about the main mechanic here, you can’t gear the spec towards the people that are willing to never use it at all.
It’s the same with Scourge, you lose your shroud either way, regardless if you want to bother placing shades around. Holosmith dedicates all their traits to Photon Forge, if you don’t use it, you are missing one traitline.
With firebrand, adding 15 new skills in place of 3 is a big change. It absolutely should be the focus of the spec. Elite specs are supposed to be designed around a certain playstyle, and if you can ignore it entirely for the sake of picking a couple of traits, then the design failed.
Then you say you have to use tomes exclusively. I didn’t say remove all weapons, you still have one weapon set to use. You use tomes when you need them, they will still have limited charges and smaller but non-zero cooldowns.
There’s no guardian build that would not want to use the tomes. They provide damage, healing, boons, and general utility. You don’t have to focus on them and use the tome traits, but they are compatible with every build.
As it is, you already sacrifice a lot simply by activating the tome because of their very focused skill sets (for example using tome of justice means losing access to defensive tools, etc, while using tome of courage of resolve means losing access to damage).
It’s no different than weapon sets. Some weapon sets are pure damage, some have mobility, other have range, defense, etc.
So, if you are using Tome of Justice and want some defenses, equip Tome of Courage. If anything, the problem is more pronounced now, because the high cooldowns of Tome of Resolve and Courage means that you don’t get easy access to those defenses.
(edited by RabbitUp.8294)
I don’t agree with that, the spec doesn’t have to be the right for everyone, it’s already geared towards conditions over power, so it will not be compatible with all core builds. But we are talking about the main mechanic here, you can’t gear the spec towards the people that are willing to never use it at all.
The spec doesn’t have to be right for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it has to be intentionally limited either. Dragon Hunter was not perfect as an elite spec either, but it at least offered a lot of build variety and synergy with core builds. You could easily use dragon hunter with many of the old utilities or weapons, without feeling limited.
What you’re suggesting is to intentionally force a tome build, when a lot of people might want condition builds without tomes, or want the ability to use tomes more sparingly while still focusing more on weapon skills. I don’t see how that’s a good idea.
With firebrand, adding 15 new skills in place of 3 is a big change. It absolutely should be the focus of the spec. Elite specs are supposed to be designed around a certain playstyle, and if you can ignore it entirely for the sake of picking a couple of traits, then the design failed.
That is not quite accurate. Elite specs are designed to offer new play styles that the core class may not yet have access to, in order to increase diversity. They are not, however, designed to force said play styles exclusively. Firebrand in particular is an elite spec that offers both support based play styles, as well as condition based, but with that being said, the skills and traits it offers could also easily be adopted into core play styles with existing damage or support builds.
Firebrands should no more be forced to use tomes than Deadeyes should be forced to use rifles. Just because a spec gives us a tool, it doesn’t mean we have to use it or focus them.
Then you say you have to use tomes exclusively. I didn’t say remove all weapons, you still have one weapon set to use. You use tomes when you need them, they will still have limited charges and smaller but non-zero cooldowns.
But you just said further above that tomes absolutely should be the focus of the spec. The wording you use makes it sound like tomes must be front and center while weapons become the afterthought. That’s the part I am disagreeing with. I think the players should have the option as to whether or not they want to focus on tomes. I even gave an idea for an optional alternative, where you can pick a trait to give up weapon swapping in order to get shorter tome cooldowns. I don’t see why you’d want to limit player choice when half the fun of a new elite spec being introduced is coming up with new build ideas, or working out ways the new spec can synergize with core traits and skills.
As it is, you already sacrifice a lot simply by activating the tome because of their very focused skill sets (for example using tome of justice means losing access to defensive tools, etc, while using tome of courage of resolve means losing access to damage).
It’s no different than weapon sets. Some weapon sets are pure damage, some have mobility, other have range, defense, etc.
So, if you are using Tome of Justice and want some defenses, equip Tome of Courage. If anything, the problem is more pronounced now, because the high cooldowns of Tome of Resolve and Courage means that you don’t get easy access to those defenses.
Actually no, it’s not quite the same. The one main difference is weapons have unlimited use with no timer or charges limiting them, and tomes have limited use. Forcing me to swap between tomes with charge counts to get more versatility out of a build because I’m now missing a second weapon set is not a good idea, especially if I’m a player who doesn’t like all the tome skills and, for example, only uses them sparingly in key situations.
The other main difference is that tomes cannot be swapped out for alternatives to suit particular builds, but weapons can. So if I happen to not find certain tomes useful for my build, I lose a lot of versatility with your idea. That’s why I think if such a thing was ever implemented, it would need to be optional so people could have a choice. Keep in mind, I’m not wholly disagreeing with the idea of losing a weapon swap to get much shorter tome cooldowns. I’m simply disagreeing with the idea of it being built into Firebrands as a baseline or forced mechanic.
We won’t lose weapon swap.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
I don’t think the devs will go this route. But it would be more effective than the Guardian patch/band aid that we’re getting. Umm, how i love my drinks watered down….
I agree with the OP
Right now, the only reason i’d take the FB is for the swiftness in WvW. DH with the updated traitlines is superior is most forms of DPS and the FB’s “support” isn’t worth taking note of. This trade off might actualy get us somthing worth taking, instead of just a gimik to accompny the fix to our lack of a condi weapon
(edited by momophily.3814)
The spec doesn’t have to be right for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it has to be intentionally limited either. Dragon Hunter was not perfect as an elite spec either, but it at least offered a lot of build variety and synergy with core builds. You could easily use dragon hunter with many of the old utilities or weapons, without feeling limited.
What you’re suggesting is to intentionally force a tome build, when a lot of people might want condition builds without tomes, or want the ability to use tomes more sparingly while still focusing more on weapon skills. I don’t see how that’s a good idea.
Can guardian not make a decent condi build already without firebrand? And what use would taking a trait line be if you want to ignore a large part of the spec? (15 added skills!)
That is not quite accurate. Elite specs are designed to offer new play styles that the core class may not yet have access to, in order to increase diversity. They are not, however, designed to force said play styles exclusively. Firebrand in particular is an elite spec that offers both support based play styles, as well as condition based, but with that being said, the skills and traits it offers could also easily be adopted into core play styles with existing damage or support builds.
Firebrands should no more be forced to use tomes than Deadeyes should be forced to use rifles. Just because a spec gives us a tool, it doesn’t mean we have to use it or focus them.
Not an accurate analogy. Tomes aren’t really your weapon choice but rather your proffession mechanic. Deadeye can’t use steal or the normal steal abilities, he must use marks and malice. And swapping out steal+shadow step for basically a skill modifier on a single target is a big loss.
The main reason I’d support losing weapon swap in exchange for tomes is because i greatly like the look, feel and strength the current tomes have and i foresee them getting watered down a lot, not only in the initial balance pass but in overall functionality whereas, if something were given in exchange, we might see needed improvements to the tomes.
Call me paranoid, but deadeye and firebrand will be the 1st specs i play in PoF because i have a feeling they will soon feel very different in PvE.
Can guardian not make a decent condi build already without firebrand? And what use would taking a trait line be if you want to ignore a large part of the spec? (15 added skills!)
Guardians could also make decent dps builds without Dragon Hunter, but if a new spec is introduced that can help you improve a build, why not use it?
Also, specializations cause you to ignore 66% of their traits by design. The whole point is to give options. It’s not that you’re ignoring a large part of the spec, it’s that you’re choosing which parts to focus on.
I’ll give an example. Let’s say you have someone who wants to make a dps power/support guardian that focuses mainly on damage and sharing quickness with allies. Because none of the tomes really offer anything that helps power damage builds, chances are this particular player would want to spend as little time using tomes as possible. After all, their optimal damage rotation will come from their two weapon sets, and at most they’d pop into tomes just to get the quickness and then pop out again.
Now imagine you took away their second weapon set. Not only would you be nerfing their damage/utility, but you’d be giving them nothing of value in return. Tome of Justice is mostly focused on burning and popping it for a power build would result in a dps loss, no matter how you look at it. The other two tomes lack damage altogether, so unless the player in question had a specific need for some emergency healing or defensive buffs, they’d see no need to rely on them as an integral part of their build.
But of course, now you’ve messed up a great potential build because you want to nerf it by taking away weapon swap and replacing it with something the build does not need at all. I don’t see why, given this example, the concept of removing weapon swap being a bad idea is difficult to grasp. How much people want to use tomes should be optional, just like every other class mechanic in the game.
Not an accurate analogy. Tomes aren’t really your weapon choice but rather your proffession mechanic. Deadeye can’t use steal or the normal steal abilities, he must use marks and malice. And swapping out steal+shadow step for basically a skill modifier on a single target is a big loss.
The analogy is accurate in the sense that in both cases, you’re forcing a tool that should be optional. But if you want another example, forcing Guardians to focus on tomes more exclusively would be akin to forcing reapers to focus on Death Shroud more exclusively by taking away their weapon swap as well. Or, forcing Druids to focus more on Celestial Avatar. Or forcing Mesmers to go shatter builds. Or forcing rangers to go for pet builds by removing their weapon swap. So on and so forth.
Just because something is introduced as a class mechanic, that doesn’t mean you should be forced to play or build around it. There are plenty of cases with the classes mentioned above where the class mechanic is used more sparingly or as a back-up mechanic rather than the main focus of the build. DPS druids, for example, only use Celestial avatar as a clutch heal. But they don’t build specifically around it. I’d bet you’d kitten them off, however, if the devs suddenly said they were removing ranger weapon swap to buff Celestial Avatar.
The main reason I’d support losing weapon swap in exchange for tomes is because i greatly like the look, feel and strength the current tomes have and i foresee them getting watered down a lot, not only in the initial balance pass but in overall functionality whereas, if something were given in exchange, we might see needed improvements to the tomes.
And again, I’m not arguing against the idea of allowing for more tome focused builds, I even gave an alternative suggestion that it rather involves an optional trait. I only disagree with forcing it as a baseline mechanic for reasons I stated above. Tome focused builds can and should be a thing. But forcing them by removing weapon swap should definitely NOT be a thing. I also think anyone hoping for it should give up on the idea, because I simply cannot see the devs removing weapon swap for guardians. Everyone’s time would be better spent making realistic suggestions on how to improve tome builds, that don’t involve destroying other build potential.
(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)
Also, specializations cause you to ignore 66% of their traits by design. The whole point is to give options. It’s not that you’re ignoring a large part of the spec, it’s that you’re choosing which parts to focus on.
I’ll give an example.
~snip~
But your example is exactly what I mean when I say ignoring a large part of the spec. The part where you say “The other two tomes lack damage altogether, so unless the player in question had a specific need for some emergency healing or defensive buffs, they’d see no need to rely on them as an integral part of their build.”
Similar to Elementalist, they pay for having defensive and support portions of their profession baked in. If you want to focus on dps so mainly ride in air and fire, it’s fine, but none of that eliminates the fact that they still have water and earth when they need it thus a price must be paid regardless.
Now imagine you took away their second weapon set. Not only would you be nerfing their damage/utility, but you’d be giving them nothing of value in return.
Well, maybe nerfing their utility unless there is a strong build for Guardian aimed at swapping weapons a lot? I know I’m not well versed in Guardians, but I don’t think they have the equivalent to what Warriors, Thieves and Rangers have for weapon swapping which could directly nerf their damage. But I wouldn’t say the exchange would be offering nothing in return…if the Tomes were made better, I’d hope it would be an equivalent exchange even if the utility that was lost wasn’t directly compensated for.
I don’t see why, given this example, the concept of removing weapon swap being a bad idea is difficult to grasp. How much people want to use tomes should be optional, just like every other class mechanic in the game.
It’s a real problem in this day and age, where people blame others for not being able to comprehend or grasp another’s perspective while committing the same failure. I CAN see how taking weapon swap away could be bad…it’s not difficult to grasp. But you’re failing (or refusing to acknowledge) that it would also be bad if tomes were toned back (which they likely will, but to what extent has yet to be seen) to the point that “optional” won’t even be a selling point because they will be so clunky and mild, you’d be wasting your time using them (and I doubt tomes will ever be meta so…).
The analogy is accurate in the sense that in both cases, you’re forcing a tool that should be optional. But if you want another example, forcing Guardians to focus on tomes more exclusively would be akin to forcing reapers to focus on Death Shroud more exclusively by taking away their weapon swap as well.
or taking away their Death Shroud to focus more on support?
Or, forcing Druids to focus more on Celestial Avatar. Or forcing Mesmers to go shatter builds. Or forcing rangers to go for pet builds by removing their weapon swap. So on and so forth.
The difference is magnitude. Celestial Avatar didn’t give them a 3rd pet + 2 beast skills for each of them. Shatters weren’t branched into a set of 3-4 shredding skills each. And I’m honestly still hoping they release a pet focused build for Ranger and if enough effort was made to make that viable and more engaging, it may well be worth giving up an alternate weapon for it.
Just because something is introduced as a class mechanic, that doesn’t mean you should be forced to play or build around it.
I think you should chill with the accusations though. I never said anything should be forced and I only support the removal of a weapon swap because I don’t want tomes to be watered down but rather improved in strength. I think even the OP just wants better tomes but doing so would likely push Firebrand into overpowered status.
Not only that but this internet insistence on black and white criticism gets old and easily counterable. For instance, you say “forced to play” when in reality, as you’ve already stated, there are already DPS specs for Guardian outside of Firebrand that doesn’t use tomes so the only way to force someone to play the new spec is to nerf every other spec into the ground or put a gun to your head. People wanted variety in the specs and yet they want them to all play the same?
Now then, I’m not asking people to be forced to use tomes, just incentivized to use tomes.
And again, I’m not arguing against the idea of allowing for more tome focused builds, I even gave an alternative suggestion that it rather involves an optional trait. I only disagree with forcing it as a baseline mechanic for reasons I stated above. Tome focused builds can and should be a thing. But forcing them by removing weapon swap should definitely NOT be a thing. I also think anyone hoping for it should give up on the idea, because I simply cannot see the devs removing weapon swap for guardians. Everyone’s time would be better spent making realistic suggestions on how to improve tome builds, that don’t involve destroying other build potential.
And I didn’t disagree with your suggestion but even that could be a tipping point to make the build too strong (I would support your trait suggestion but it may provide too much flexibility to the spec).
I think a better arguing point for you to sway my point of view is to get me to believe tomes are far too weak for the paranoia I have for them being nerfed. I already know they’re clunky which will likely stop them from being any sort of threat in PvP and their support isn’t unique for raids, but I’m not a huge player of either of those modes.
Guardians could also make decent dps builds without Dragon Hunter, but if a new spec is introduced that can help you improve a build, why not use it?
Also, specializations cause you to ignore 66% of their traits by design. The whole point is to give options. It’s not that you’re ignoring a large part of the spec, it’s that you’re choosing which parts to focus on.
I’ll give an example. Let’s say you have someone who wants to make a dps power/support guardian that focuses mainly on damage and sharing quickness with allies. Because none of the tomes really offer anything that helps power damage builds, chances are this particular player would want to spend as little time using tomes as possible. After all, their optimal damage rotation will come from their two weapon sets, and at most they’d pop into tomes just to get the quickness and then pop out again.
Now imagine you took away their second weapon set. Not only would you be nerfing their damage/utility, but you’d be giving them nothing of value in return. Tome of Justice is mostly focused on burning and popping it for a power build would result in a dps loss, no matter how you look at it. The other two tomes lack damage altogether, so unless the player in question had a specific need for some emergency healing or defensive buffs, they’d see no need to rely on them as an integral part of their build.
But of course, now you’ve messed up a great potential build because you want to nerf it by taking away weapon swap and replacing it with something the build does not need at all. I don’t see why, given this example, the concept of removing weapon swap being a bad idea is difficult to grasp. How much people want to use tomes should be optional, just like every other class mechanic in the game.
Playing a power FB with only quickness in mind is a lot weaker than DH or even core guard. I tested it. And it should be ovious as this elite specialisation is only about condition damage with some support.
It’s like expecting a better raw damage output with druid which is designed for support or scrapper which is designed for sustain and survivability. Even if the damage output of the druid is reduced by 10-50%, it’ll stay in raids. Surely it’s weaker but still effective in the role it plays. To specialize means to give up something but get or be better at other stuff.
Sure you can play other roles with those classes but you never ever will be as effective as if you use the core builds.
Also giving up class mechanics won’t help you at all in places where you need them the most. sPvP, WvW,( raids or even the highest fractals) need to use the best your class can give or else you loose every time in non casual games.
You want to be good at power dmg. OK. You want to be good at condi dmg. OK. You want to be good at supporting. OK. But than don’t specialize to get best in one of these and stay core.
(edited by Alteran.9510)
Playing a power FB with only quickness in mind is a lot weaker than DH or even core guard. I tested it. And it should be ovious as this elite specialisation is only about condition damage with some support.
It’s like expecting a better raw damage output with druid which is designed for support or scrapper which is designed for sustain and survivability. Even if the damage output of the druid is reduced by 10-50%, it’ll stay in raids. Surely it’s weaker but still effective in the role it plays. To specialize means to give up something but get or be better at other stuff.
Sure you can play other roles with those classes but you never ever will be as effective as if you use the core builds.Also giving up class mechanics won’t help you at all in places where you need them the most. sPvP, WvW,( raids or even the highest fractals) need to use the best your class can give or else you loose every time in non casual games.
You want to be good at power dmg. OK. You want to be good at condi dmg. OK. You want to be good at supporting. OK. But than don’t specialize to get best in one of these and stay core.
I didn’t expect it to be stronger though, as far as personal dps is concerned. Rather, I expected it to be a build where you trade some personal dps for more group dps (kinda like phalanx strength warriors). That being said, it doesn’t change the fact that removing weapon swapping for this build would still be a nerf.
Also, you seem to have missed the point of my argument. I’m not saying what the Firebrand will be better or worse at. I think it would be quite clear that it’s geared more towards conditions than power damage. My point was that for those who want to build differently, those options should not be limited for them just to try and funnel them into a more specific play style. Druids for example were clearly intended to be a more support/heal oriented spec, but you see plenty of damage oriented druids who focus much less on healing.
As for your comment on giving up class mechanics, I never said you’d give up tomes or not use them. I just said you shouldn’t feel forced to use them as the primary mechanic. DPS druids in PvP aren’t giving up Celestial Avatar, but they’re also not trying to stay in it all the time or focus on it as their core mechanic. They use it when they feel it is necessary, just the same way you’d use tomes when you feel they’re necessary, not because they’re being incentivized to do so because other toys were taken away from them, but because it is the most sound, logical thing to do at the time.
Again, it’s a matter of choice. The argument of giving people a choice of if or when to use certain tools at their disposal is not the same as saying they shouldn’t use them at all, or should only use or focus on them.
(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)
I disapprove of this idea on the grounds that not all three tomes offer offensive options.
ToR is completely incapable of interacting with enemies (honestly this is in need of a fix).
ToC on the other hand has two skills. One directly affects enemies but it is melee-range only and is not a substitute for an auto attack (the hallmark of every single weapon in the game). The other is a casted bubble which reflects projectiles which is technically offensive but classifies more as defensive utility + it has a considerable cooldown.
So in other words, we would have a weapon set and ToJ, that’s it. Opponents wouldn’t really have much to adapt to once they learn how ToJ works.
Absolutely not. Reducing options is never going to get my vote.
Battlelord Taeres
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
(edited by RabbitUp.8294)
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
Baseline, yes, but you need to look at how they interact with traits.
Loremaster cuts those recharges by a third – so it becomes 30 and 60, respectively, on the order of dragonhunter virtues. You can reduce that even further by adding the Virtues traitline. (While on the note of reduced recharges, there’s also Renewed Justice for ToJ.)
Legendary Lore makes all of your ToR skills apply 6s regeneration, which pretty much means that if you invoke a ToR healing bomb, people are pretty much going to have Regeneration until you’re ready to invoke ToR again. YMMV on how useful that is, but I think it would have its uses. Generally speaking, the ability to drop healing bombs doesn’t actually seem to be that much less than Celestial Avatar to my eye, but I will note that I haven’t done any thorough analysis there.
Possibly more interestingly, ToC with Legendary Lore grants Aegis to all of your affected allies as well as the listed effects. In and of itself, this basically makes it a longer-lasting, more flexible Well of Precognition. Unlike mesmers, though, guardians have traits that key of aegis blocks. Throw in Shattered Aegis, and while you may not be doing damage directly, the enemy will have to back out of melee range (good time to drop that projectile reflect!) or stop attacking or they’ll start getting hit by a lot of exploding Aegises. Add in Wrathful Spirit and Pure of Heart, and they’ll also be healing your allies when their attacks bounce off your aegis, and they’ll be copping retaliation for every attack that does get through. The skills might not cause damage directly, but I could see that making a big difference in a teamfight for something you can do once a minute, while also packing other sources of aegis to make use of those traits during the time in between.
And that’s just scraping the surface. I think one of the things I’m most looking forward to with firebrand is figuring out how all these various synergies can work out, both those that make heavy use of the tomes and those for which the tomes are something you pull out for special occasions.
But I have to say that if your suggestion to remove weaponswap was implemented, then that would probably kill my enthusiasm faster and more effectively than anything else I see as being reasonably plausible.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
Baseline, yes, but you need to look at how they interact with traits.
Loremaster cuts those recharges by a third – so it becomes 30 and 60, respectively, on the order of dragonhunter virtues.
Not gonna answer your whole post since the first few sentences make the rest irrelevant.
No the trait dont reduce the recharges on the tomes. It reduces the recharge on the skills in the tomes.
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
Baseline, yes, but you need to look at how they interact with traits.
Loremaster cuts those recharges by a third – so it becomes 30 and 60, respectively, on the order of dragonhunter virtues.
Not gonna answer your whole post since the first few sentences make the rest irrelevant.
No the trait dont reduce the recharges on the tomes. It reduces the recharge on the skills in the tomes.
Hrmn. Must have misread, although I’m pretty sure I saw a recharge figure of less than 76 1/2 for Tome of Courage during the test weekend.
That doesn’t render the rest of my post irrelevant, though, since I moved on to other things. Just means that some of the numbers are off.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
Baseline, yes, but you need to look at how they interact with traits.
Loremaster cuts those recharges by a third – so it becomes 30 and 60, respectively, on the order of dragonhunter virtues. You can reduce that even further by adding the Virtues traitline. (While on the note of reduced recharges, there’s also Renewed Justice for ToJ.)
Legendary Lore makes all of your ToR skills apply 6s regeneration, which pretty much means that if you invoke a ToR healing bomb, people are pretty much going to have Regeneration until you’re ready to invoke ToR again. YMMV on how useful that is, but I think it would have its uses. Generally speaking, the ability to drop healing bombs doesn’t actually seem to be that much less than Celestial Avatar to my eye, but I will note that I haven’t done any thorough analysis there.
Possibly more interestingly, ToC with Legendary Lore grants Aegis to all of your affected allies as well as the listed effects. In and of itself, this basically makes it a longer-lasting, more flexible Well of Precognition. Unlike mesmers, though, guardians have traits that key of aegis blocks. Throw in Shattered Aegis, and while you may not be doing damage directly, the enemy will have to back out of melee range (good time to drop that projectile reflect!) or stop attacking or they’ll start getting hit by a lot of exploding Aegises. Add in Wrathful Spirit and Pure of Heart, and they’ll also be healing your allies when their attacks bounce off your aegis, and they’ll be copping retaliation for every attack that does get through. The skills might not cause damage directly, but I could see that making a big difference in a teamfight for something you can do once a minute, while also packing other sources of aegis to make use of those traits during the time in between.
And that’s just scraping the surface. I think one of the things I’m most looking forward to with firebrand is figuring out how all these various synergies can work out, both those that make heavy use of the tomes and those for which the tomes are something you pull out for special occasions.
But I have to say that if your suggestion to remove weaponswap was implemented, then that would probably kill my enthusiasm faster and more effectively than anything else I see as being reasonably plausible.
Yes, Legendary Lore is an overperforming trait, that I can agree with. Tomes by themselves still have a myriad problem, even if a trait like that exists.
Especially when “support” Firebrand can’t use it to begin with, since it competes with the necessary quickness trait.
As for regeneration, it’s a non-stacking boon and chronos passively grant perma-regeneration already.
ToR’s “healing bombs” are weaker than Celestial Avatar’s, and that’s before considering the immense difference between their cooldowns.
(edited by RabbitUp.8294)
whats bad about the tombs? Was the best part of PoF that I was looking forward to.
Resolve has weak healing, Courage’s only defensive skill is some protection and +300 toughness, but more importantly, extremely long cooldowns (Tome of Resolve 45, Tome of Courage 90s).
Baseline, yes, but you need to look at how they interact with traits.
Loremaster cuts those recharges by a third – so it becomes 30 and 60, respectively, on the order of dragonhunter virtues.
Not gonna answer your whole post since the first few sentences make the rest irrelevant.
No the trait dont reduce the recharges on the tomes. It reduces the recharge on the skills in the tomes.
Just to add up. Even if there was a trait that would reduce the cooldown of the Tomes Virtues (F1, F2 and F3) it would be a really bad design because you would be forced to pick this trait so the tomes actually become viable to use.
Hopefully the spec becomes viable till PoF launch.
Sorry for my english.
ToR’s “healing bombs” are weaker than Celestial Avatar’s, and that’s before considering the immense difference between their cooldowns.
The numbers looked roughly comparable baseline, although Celestial Avatar does scale better with healing power.
Just to add up. Even if there was a trait that would reduce the cooldown of the Tomes Virtues (F1, F2 and F3) it would be a really bad design because you would be forced to pick this trait so the tomes actually become viable to use.
Hopefully the spec becomes viable till PoF launch.
Not necessarily. It would give the player a choice between making a big investment on tomes or a firebrand build that uses the firebrand’s other stuff and the tomes are just something they bring out occasionally.
The suggestion made in this thread would pigeonhole tomes into something you MUST base your build around, and would be a PITA in general for many builds because guardian weapons weren’t designed to be used without a weaponswap. (Although you might think it the way guardian ranged capabilities keep getting nerfed…)
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
(Although you might think it the way guardian ranged capabilities keep getting nerfed…)
Scepter is love, scepter is life!
Though for the topic at hand, I wouldn’t mind losing weapon swap if the tomes were made/buffed with it in mind (hell, I’d even go for having to wear light armor to fit the whole scholar vibe, but that’s just more me wanting to be able to wear something else besides heavy all the time on my Guard). Like if tomes got the buff to be kites while each one was also buffed to be really good in it’s role, so if you wanted to burn VoJ, healing gets bombed out by VoR, and general protection in VoC (smiting, healing, and protection prayers oh my!), then giving up a swap wouldn’t be so bad.
ToR’s “healing bombs” are weaker than Celestial Avatar’s, and that’s before considering the immense difference between their cooldowns.
The numbers looked roughly comparable baseline, although Celestial Avatar does scale better with healing power.
I made a thread comparing the two.
Tome of Resolve is gated by charges, so there’s a limit to how much you can heal. Even then, using all your charges is less base healing than Druid using only Rejuvenating Tides and Lunar Impact. Yes, you might call them “roughly comparable”, but Tome of Resolve has more than 4 times longer cooldown, the numbers shouldn’t be roughly comparable, especially with Tome of Resolve on the lower side.
On top of that, druid can remain in CA and do more healing using Seed of Life and Cosmic Ray, and with alacrity, they can easily use Rejuvenating Tides a second time. This will drain their energy and delay their next Celestial Avatar, but in a raid setting, it will be only a couple of seconds of delay, nothing comparable to Tome of Resolve’s 45s cooldown.
To be fair, you can squeeze some more healing out of Tome of Resolve, because other skills and traits you use will have a 33% modifier, but that requires some build dedication to healing.
Which brings us to the second comparison, firebrand vs druid with healing gear. The difference is not even funny, 1 cast of Rejuvenating Tides is stronger than the entire Tome of Resolve.
(edited by RabbitUp.8294)