Resistant to Change/Ideas

Resistant to Change/Ideas

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I have seen many threads pop up here and there, some with good suggestions, others with not so good suggestions. The problem is the resounding response of the general guardian community which is “I don’t like it, Guardian’s are fine”.

I have one of every class and two guardians. I love the class and prefer it over anything else, but I do see problems and areas to be tweaked that could help balance us better, or fix broken or not fully fleshed out mechanics.

Still, why are we so adamant against changes and ideas more so than I have seen in other class boards.

Maybe I just see it more cause I’m here more.

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Posted by: phokus.8934

phokus.8934

I’d say it’s due to these suggestions being so out of scope and not worth the time or effort to discuss. For example, numerous posts suggesting that we get a long bow because “scepter sucks.” What’s more likely to happen – a brand new weapon to the class or to fix a current weapon?

Ultimately it comes down to “what’s not broke, don’t fix” mentality. Guardians have a lot of good working for them and the majority of these suggestions I see are based on “it’d be cool if …” rather than discussing on how to make abilities/traits/etc. better and more meaningful.

I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

while “scepter” does not suck, it still has its flaws and areas it could be improved upon. Biggest problem is speed and/or tracking of the projectile, which has been acknowledged by the devs.

Still the root of the problem was consistent, while the suggestions may be out of scope for some it is reasonable to others. Constructive feedback is always more welcome than “that’s stupid”. Ideas are meant to be expressed and discussed, not just simply shot down.

In the long run, I agree that many ideas come out as “wouldn’t it be cool if”, and not totally constructive themselves. The problem with the “what’s not broke” mentality is that people become used to working around problems and then become accustomed to how they found a work around and avoid or ignore the original problem in the first place. I get this in my work area and it frustrates me to no end sometimes.

Side tangent, so we had a discussion about things being broken at my job and the story of apes and the bananas came up. Long story short, the apes were conditioned to not try to get the bananas, any time a new ape was introduced to the mix they would try to get the bananas. Since the other apes had the learned behavior to not get the bananas or something bad would happen, they would promptly beat the new ape up to make it conform to “societal rules”.

I think this is what we have going on here honestly. Ya’ll just a bunch of apes

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

There are a few people on here that do agree that things that are broken need to be fixed (see the fix to zeal thread). But I think more of the issue is that so many people are set in their standard builds and thoughts that guardian are not meant to build damage that they really don’t care about changes because it does not effect their current build. I know personally I think this way towards non damage builds, since I play mostly roaming WvW, however I am generally not one to jump in and say “hey we don’t need these changes” furthest I will go is to fix the more broken things first. (such as zeal trait line, our lack of combined CC/Mobility, etc)

Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]

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Posted by: timidobserver.7925

timidobserver.7925

I have seen many threads pop up here and there, some with good suggestions, others with not so good suggestions. The problem is the resounding response of the general guardian community which is “I don’t like it, Guardian’s are fine”.

I have one of every class and two guardians. I love the class and prefer it over anything else, but I do see problems and areas to be tweaked that could help balance us better, or fix broken or not fully fleshed out mechanics.

Still, why are we so adamant against changes and ideas more so than I have seen in other class boards.

Maybe I just see it more cause I’m here more.

Eh, as Anet has proven, they don’t care what the community thinks if they think the community is wrong. If Anet decides that guardians need a change, then regardless of what the community thinks, the change will occur.

To answer your question, anyone that has played classes that have undergone changes, it usually isn’t good. A buff is usually accompanied by a equal or larger nerf to something else. Most people are comfortable with the class and would prefer to keep it as it is rather than see it get broken by the buff/nerf balance game.

(edited by timidobserver.7925)

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

I have seen my fair share of buffs and nerfs since I started playing mmos with EverQuest. So I understand that people are afraid of nerfs and that ultimately the developers are the ones in power. They do read and listen to what we say but they may or may not agree with our solutions.

If anything conversation and discussion help highlight areas that may need looking at. The result may not be what we want but then continued discussion would be “feedback” to the changes.

Stagnant and works but a little clunky, or lots of changes that may help or sometimes not but continued progression? Some may like one or the other option more.

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Posted by: timidobserver.7925

timidobserver.7925

I have seen my fair share of buffs and nerfs since I started playing mmos with EverQuest. So I understand that people are afraid of nerfs and that ultimately the developers are the ones in power. They do read and listen to what we say but they may or may not agree with our solutions.

If anything conversation and discussion help highlight areas that may need looking at. The result may not be what we want but then continued discussion would be “feedback” to the changes.

Stagnant and works but a little clunky, or lots of changes that may help or sometimes not but continued progression? Some may like one or the other option more.

Oh well, yeh that is what the forums are for. Feel free to state and discuss your ideas. No one should be telling you not to.

However, after what was done to Engis, which leads to why I main a guardian now, I am in favor of just leaving guardian alone other than general bug fixing.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

I think part of the issue is the ridiculous requests people make to “balance” guardians. The community, I feel, easily sees how broken these “fixes” are. However, another issue is that we don’t necessarily have a good alternative in mind (something we’ve taken the time to try to balance (really, actually, balance)), and so we just don’t post (like what I usually do). We can however, smell broken from a mile away.

Another point brought up in the thread, is Anet’s style of balance. Honestly, I have full faith that Anet’s changes are actually balancing classes. I think part of what irks people, is they’ve been conditioned into thinking only certain builds are worthwhile at all (we even had a bit of this with AH), and once one of those builds take a hit (like 100nades) chicken little is all over the forums. Maybe its just me, but I generally like to run unexpected builds. I leveled my Guardian exclusively as a Sw/T condo/power hybrid way back at release. Last time I seriously touched a GS was at level 10. My alts afterwards have started as the fotm most hated class (Engi, Necro, Ranger). I guess I’m just trying to say: Anet’s changes are warrented. They were known long before they went into effect (as they had to develop a solution, and then take at least 2 weeks to test as much as they could).

/rant. Back on topic, I think some of these bugs within the game have gone unfixed for far too long (most of these things are traits. Not necessarily tooltips, as those have to be localized, and they’re working on a dynamic system so they shouldn’t have to write out tooltips again). I’m sure someone could be assigned the task of going around and knocking down low-hanging fruit.

I’ll just leave those thoughts there.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I’ll just drop some music to listen to while you’re discussing this.

CH-CH-CH-CH-CHANGES!

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

Well, in comparison to other professions, guardians are pretty good. Guardians have many builds that work, are desirable in PvE, PvP, and WvW, and for people that like the concept of the class, it’s generally fun to play. It’s not surprising that people are hesitant to make significant changes considering the possible outcome of ending up like other professions are currently.

But I would wager that the reason you see a lot of those comments is because people on the forums try to play developers and are bad at it. Most lack a deep understanding of many aspects of the game and why things work the way they do, or they disregard the concept of the class and want it to be able to do everything brainlessly. When posting these suggestions, the negative aspects are often ignored, so those are often the first to be brought to light.

Perhaps the reason you don’t see it on other profession forums is that they have so many more things that aren’t working and it’s easy for everyone to point those out, compared to more minor aspects with Guardians. For guardians, we pretty much all agree that the Zeal trait line needs improvement. But outside of that, everything is debatable, like the role and effectiveness of the scepter. So we have debates (or yelling contests).

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

Counter argument engaged:
Wouldn’t said, community identification of bad ideas, but much the same way of forum goers trying to “play developers”. If we the community are bad at identifying good ideas then could the same be said for bad ideas too?

Maybe it is a good idea and we just don’t give it enough time to develop or be explained more. Or even understand it since it is so different and new.

In the end, yes I agree there are bad ideas and I have seen them and even made probable bad idea posts myself. Still I stand that strangulation of anything new, be it bad or good, hinders our growth and development. Try out new things, even if it is so out of the box you can’t fathom it. Maybe it will work, or even better, maybe it will get you thinking about a new idea that is better than the last that failed.

I almost sound like an asuran now =p

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Counter argument engaged:

I’ll counter your counter with a counter!

No, I agree completely. I think the issue is though, that our experimentation needs to be with what we’re given first (like that great poster that I forgot his name, going through and making Zeal builds), and then after ask for “changes of functionality” (which is, admittedly, my favorite part of patch day. Its something completely new instead of a number tweak).

I think a large portion of Anet not changing things, is trying to allow the community to come up with something great with what used to be terrible. I almost expect some of the devs to just sit on the forums listening to whine with cheese, and say to themselves, “If only you knew what we knew…”. They’re just sitting there waiting for us to discover it on our own.

And then again, it could just be mechanically underpowered, and changes are just in the testing phase for a bit. Who knows?

Things I’d like to see personally, is a symbol per main hand weapon, and a proper, dedicated condition build as far as guardians go. I’ve come up with quite a few builds myself (and ideas for symbols), but nothing yet that I feel is “there”. Maybe though, there’s builds known by few that excel in that way. Until then, I’ll keep trying to find a way that feels complete to me, and maybe they’ll be a change sometime down the road that’ll make that happen.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

“Playing developer” refers to listing specific changes that should be made. Identifying something that doesn’t work is the easy part. Figuring out why it doesn’t work and fixing it without making it too good or breaking something else is the hard part. When most people list these changes, they do it in a vacuum. They don’t consider uses outside of a narrow scope, or they don’t do a good job with the “why” process. Pointing out these errors is a normal part of a peer review.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz