Guild Wars 2

Bobobejumbo.4951:

Most of them only care about PvP. I doubt they will return. This isn’t a group of kids, it’s a group of seasoned gamers who were really disappointed by this title.

Well, I hope they learn to have patience in the future, or else they’ll never have an opportunity to be seasoned at pvp in any mmo game, ever. Unless they only pick games with years of balancing, which would only mean that they would come back to this one sooner or later.

this is why it got nerfed: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Save-yourselfes-for-Guardians-needs-a-nerf
he don’t even use it himself and i haven’t even used it in pvp with guardian because its so bad. but they didn’t change it for pve so fine by me.

I personally don’t mind this nerf for Spvp. 10 seconds of boons combined with CoP made this very powerful in small encounters. I mainly use this for pve and apparently the changes do not count in WvsWvsW. I’m happy with the RF changes and the 10% buff to SoW is welcome as well.

But everything so far has been a significant decrease. 100% on cooldown increase for the GS symbol, 50% reduction on booms for SOY. I mean this isn’t a nerf, it’s a hammer to a skill.

Edit: I’d rather they remove some boons and keep the duration. I can’t stand the way it’s being handled.

the way Anet is handling the guardian class with this massives nerfs left and right is borderline ridiculous. I wish other known mmo news sites such as massively, gamebreaker or zam would make an article and perhaps interview directly devs as to know wtf is up with them throwing all their initial work out the window because of some forum rants.

sadly they are more worried about having Anets supports since it gives them publicity when they link to their website articles on fb.

Are there other abilities which have different functionality in PvE and PvP?

Korgov.7645:

Are there other abilities which have different functionality in PvE and PvP?

I think this is the first one.

Their public exposure pre-launch was pretty small. Like any new release you can expect to have a lot of ups and downs. I’m much less concerned about ability nerfs as massive changes or breakage of trait synergy. I’m still playing my mesmer despite doubled phantasm cooldowns and still loving it.

Still, i don’t care if they nerf the hell out of retal or SoW damage, but I want the symbol back on a low CD because the entire tree for GS was built around it.

I’m all for changes and tweaks but these nerfs weren’t tweaks by any stretch of the imagination. Massive reductions in effectiveness doesn’t help.

Arken.3725:

Korgov.7645:

Are there other abilities which have different functionality in PvE and PvP?

I think this is the first one.

This is bad new direction to go. I would rather have it function the same for PvE, too. Even nerfed it is a good button to press.

they are so heavy handed with nerfs, even when something is deserving i still dont like it.

If something needs a nerf, reduce the kitten thing’s effectiveness slightly. If its still powerful do it again, dont drop it by huge numbers.

Im just annoyed and angry because we got this trash and mesmers got their scepter projectiles sped up. Weve been asking for this im sure more vocally and no change. Its like no dev reads guardian forums.

So only guardians have a skill that has a different effectin PVP and PVE?, why on earth is that!?.

I honestly don’t understand Anet in regards to how heavy handed they are with regards to certain things, it’s not a small bit here and a small bit there – it’s a 10 seconds here and 50% there.

Anet really seem to have it in for Guardians for some reason.

nerf nerf nerf. every other classes get fixes and buffs, and we get nerfs. This is getting highly irritating.
Oh but it’s pvp only! it’s like saying: you’re guardian? go back to dungeons.

Am I wrong in saying that this is the first ability that was changed to function differently in PvE than PvP?

AND THE ONE THEY PICKED TO CHANGE THE NORM WITH WAS SAVE YOURSELVES?

Wow.. just wow..
Lol

I also hope it does not become “normal” to separate pvp and pve effectiveness like that.

I also agree that ANet should take the balancing a bit slower, and be more mindful of trait synergy when tweaking.

If it helps, necros are in worse shape right now with about half their utilities bugged.

I’m a level 80 guardian with a shout build (regen shout, Save Yourselves, multi-boon shout) so I feel the effect of this change. With all the negativity being posted on the forums, it’s another change (similar to Greatsword change) that doesn’t phase me.

Why? Because we need to look at the big picture.

Save Yourself might seem harmless by itself which is why some people are so furious although if we think think about the big picture, we can understand why this balancing change took place.

I can see why the swiftness duration was reduced is because the guardian can pretty much achieve swiftness all the time with the appropriate traits, stats (boon duration increase), weapons (staff), and utility skills (two skills). The developers most likely saw this as an issue because having increased movement speed all the time is unbalanced especially in PvP. The only way to resolve it is to make a balance change and it just so happened that Save Yourselves was changed to make guardians more balanced.

I also like it when people are vocal when changes do not occur in their favor when changes do occur in their favor. I really like the changes made to Leap of Faith and Symbol of Wrath.

RoseRIP may I bring to your attention that there are other classes that have a way easier manner of getting perma- swiftness than swapping to a weapon + using 2 skills of 60 seconds CD?
To me this is not a valid reason to nerf this core shout.

If the whole point of all of this was to tone down retaliation, why not just remove the boon from SYS and keep the duration the same? Seems reasonable to me.

maybe grow up little, instant that give u almost all boons in game with base duration 10 sec that can be traited and runed to last 17 seconds with 48 sec CD is imba.

Do you rly like superman style so much that you will stop playing game for one shout change?

@Rasfo
More people should read that first sentence. Well put.

I will quote you on that one.

plasmacutter.2709:

I also hope it does not become “normal” to separate pvp and pve effectiveness like that.

After i’ve seen the nerfs guardian get i really hope it will. i mean just look on wrathful spirits 3 second retaliation 40 sec to get aegis 110% useless unless its still bugged.

It still got 10 seconds in wvw.

This seems like another petty change to me. Almost immediately after Anet saying, “let’s allow the ‘meta’ to solve it and try not to nerf…” Reminds me of the ridiculous Line of Warding reduction in duration. Taking what was a fun ability and making it a nuisance and hardly worth using.

SY should be treated as ae cleanse and thus should be used in a reactive manner. When it is treated as a IWIN button something has gone wrong.
The direction of the nerf is good – the amount is up for discussion. Say, half cd, half duration (pve or pvp).

wolfie.7296:

This seems like another petty change to me. Almost immediately after Anet saying, “let’s allow the ‘meta’ to solve it and try not to nerf…” Reminds me of the ridiculous Line of Warding reduction in duration. Taking what was a fun ability and making it a nuisance and hardly worth using.

Perfect example of the end of days sky is falling attitude we really don’t need more of. 8 > 5s suddently it’s unusable? By golly..

Save Yourselves on the other hand wasn’t even used by most people for its intended purposes, to rip everything off your allies and use your own body as a vessel to tank/remove them. Rather it was let’s rampage and rage every 60 (48s).

As powerful as it was, it was also Necro/Mesmer bait, and if this one change completely makes Guardian unplayable for any of you, seriously reevaluate playing MMOs.

No it’s petty. Guardian is not the class that is cleaning the floor in pvp. I’m really kitten that fun abilities have been nerfed twice. It’s showing a pattern of stinginess that I dislike 100%.

@Evilcherry and Lumines
You guys are spot on.

If the groupsupport side (removal of conditions) isnt the mainusage something is very wrong indeed in a skill thats supposed to be supportive.

What it could/should do is lower the cd to 30s, remove all conditions on the team and convert them into two random boons per teammate and fury/quickness for the guardian.

During beta and bwe there were a lot of requests for an offensive shout and SY was (perhaps) arenanets answer but i think the above is a much better solution.

If you choose guardian and think it is able to actively pwn a fight you have got to the wrong class.

The guardian maxim is always react, defend, and outlast. Otherwise what would be the difference between them and warriors anyway…

You’ve heard it hear from evilcherry and Brutaly who thinks he is spot on.

“Guardian…WAaaahhh… is supposed to be …..Support…Waahhh….Anet come to our rescue.”

Brutaly.6257:

@Evilcherry and Lumines
You guys are spot on.

If the groupsupport side (removal of conditions) isnt the mainusage something is very wrong indeed in a skill thats supposed to be supportive.

What it could/should do is lower the cd to 30s, remove all conditions on the team and convert them into two random boons per teammate and fury/quickness for the guardian.

During beta and bwe there were a lot of requests for an offensive shout and SY was (perhaps) arenanets answer but i think the above is a much better solution.

- Agree with lowering CD to 30s
- Remove 1 condition from each and and give the counterpart to the guardian(a la Well of Power)
- I’m extremely vary of quickness. Unless it needed something cleansed to power up it is opening another can of worms – take the history of pet swap+QZ/SB ranger instableed builds.

The Shout was never used for the “intended” purpose. Guardian’s Shouts are defensive and are used for upping the survivability of the team, not for becoming an offensive powerhouse every minute.
I don’t know why the Shout was nerfed and I would like to know. But the sky isn’t falling.

If you choose Guardian and think it is able to actively pwn a fight you have got to the wrong class.

The guardian maxim is always react, defend, and outlast. Otherwise what would be the difference between them and Warriors anyway…

Wrong. Guardians can be very strong offensively. They don’t have a lot of options for that, but they can do it. And if they couldn’t, that would be faulty design.
The difference between Guardians and Warriors are plentiful (offensive vs. defensive Shouts, aesthetics, weapons, focus on control/damage vs focus on support/control…)

wolfie.7296:

You’ve heard it hear from evilcherry and Brutaly who thinks he is spot on.

“Guardian…WAaaahhh… is supposed to be …..Support…Waahhh….Anet come to our rescue.”

as a 0/0/30/30/10 shout+occasional consec/crithammer I take pride in providing all kinds of support that I can offer. I personally do not care about the boons by SY except the fact that it provides altruistic healing.

Its really, really problematic when some of the playerbase wanted to take away a supportive skill and transform it into an iwin button. If you really need to play less support there are always spirit weapons (and in truth they feel really underwhelming now).

My build is seriously almost half as effective. I never complain, but I am just saying this was too much. If the traits worked as intended (tons of traits don’t work correctly), and we had more options with shouts and other builds, this would be less annoying, but to not fix bugs and introduce nerfs/changes is strange. There are numerous other nerfs that make more sense. After 25 Ranks in PVP, I will stick to PVE until trait and skill bugs are fixed. Hopefully the Guardian nerfs will be done by then.

gj anet another 100% nerf to skill why you complete nerf guardian in 1 patch its been easy without nerfing 1 skill/patch or remove this class from game guardian have couple skill what almost every player dont use and you again nerf another skill what guardian need guardian can be playe only as tank/support (dps suck vs other class) why you dont rewoke his traits( zeal trais is complete suck)

wolfie.7296:

You’ve heard it hear from evilcherry and Brutaly who thinks he is spot on.

“Guardian…WAaaahhh… is supposed to be …..Support…Waahhh….Anet come to our rescue.”

Why bother posting if you don’t get your facts straight and cant even stay on topic..

Its a huge difference between being supportive and playing as support. if you haven’t figured that out then i understand the illiterate approach you show atm.

I agreed with him on the function of the shout, not the role of the guardian. In fact on that part i disagree, playing crithammer in all aspects of the game and always on the hunt for max crit with mighty blow.

The fact remains, we are a supportive class and shouts are ment to be support tools and SY is/was an exception since the supportive part (conditionremoval) wasn’t in balance with the personal gain, all boons for 17 seconds with 48s cd.

evilcherry.1327”

as a 0/0/30/30/10 shout+occasional consec/crithammer I take pride in providing all kinds of support that I can offer.

So you spec support and comment on how it is a support class and that’s why it should be nerfed. Don’t you see the irony if someone wants to spec otherwise?

Vallenous.2179:

My build is seriously almost half as effective. I never complain, but I am just saying this was too much. If the traits worked as intended (tons of traits don’t work correctly), and we had more options with shouts and other builds, this would be less annoying, but to not fix bugs and introduce nerfs/changes is strange. There are numerous other nerfs that make more sense. After 25 Ranks in PVP, I will stick to PVE until trait and skill bugs are fixed. Hopefully the Guardian nerfs will be done by then.

[serious question] What was your build? And can’t you swap to a different Shout?
Because if 50% of your build’s power came from “Save Yourselves!” the nerf is perfectly justifiable.

Ynna.8769”

Because if 50% of your build’s power came from “Save Yourselves!” the nerf is perfectly justifiable.

Not at all. Why not look at Thieves and Warriors source of dps and their builds? Which are ok and you have not singled out.

Said from a friend that has a guardian: “every 48 secs we were invincible war machines, even without mates around”. Sounds quite reasonable a nerf in that direction IMHO. I would like to see it also in WvW even if 1v1 situations are quite rare so it doesn’t matter so much. Oh and yes, I have a warrior 80 and a freshly capped Guardian 80 and this last one, even not properly weared was centuries ahead of my war. So please stop complaining, none likes to be nerfed but if u’re OP then it’s called BALANCE (I would like to see some more “BALANCING STEPS” on mesmers and thieves however)

Of course neither of those classes has been touched. And the alternative to nerfing would have been to buff a weakness in other classes. Btw, how would your friend escaped being kited and CCd?

wolfie.7296:

Ynna.8769”

Because if 50% of your build’s power came from “Save Yourselves!” the nerf is perfectly justifiable.

Not at all. Why not look at Thieves and Warriors source of dps and their builds? Which are ok and you have not singled out.

I don’t play Thief or Warrior. I know the 100-blades combo, but that is so pathetically easy to avoid that it shouldn’t really be nerfed (and it consists of 3 or 4 skills).

wolfie.7296:

evilcherry.1327”

as a 0/0/30/30/10 shout+occasional consec/crithammer I take pride in providing all kinds of support that I can offer.

So you spec support and comment on how it is a support class and that’s why it should be nerfed. Don’t you see the irony if someone wants to spec otherwise?

And in what way is that a supportspecc, do you seriously think you need to have one single point in zeal and radiance for it to be a dpsbuild? I can do +5k hits with mighty blow in wvw/spvp without a single point in those lines.

And do you think 10 points in virtues makes it a supportbuild?

In honor/valor you have great tools for dps and making you able to stay longer at the front line and do even more dps. Do you consider those lines to be “supportbuilds” as well?

These are serious questions, i would like to know what you think categories a supportbuild.

Brutaly.6257:

wolfie.7296:

You’ve heard it hear from evilcherry and Brutaly who thinks he is spot on.

“Guardian…WAaaahhh… is supposed to be …..Support…Waahhh….Anet come to our rescue.”

Why bother posting if you don’t get your facts straight and cant even stay on topic..

Its a huge difference between being supportive and playing as support. if you haven’t figured that out then i understand the illiterate approach you show atm.

I agreed with him on the function of the shout, not the role of the guardian. In fact on that part i disagree, playing crithammer in all aspects of the game and always on the hunt for max crit with mighty blow.

The fact remains, we are a supportive class and shouts are ment to be support tools and SY is/was an exception since the supportive part (conditionremoval) wasn’t in balance with the personal gain, all boons for 17 seconds with 48s cd.

I never say I’m full-time support. I dps, crit, and provide needed support all the time.

I feel this is going back to the active vs passive gameplay discussion. some people just think guardians need some kind of active spike, which to me it is completely unnecessary for a successful guardian – our baseline is already more than enough enough to hold the line if we use our defensive capabilities effectively.

As a necro i can say that you are a bunch of babies if you believe that the guardian class is broken….
At least Corrupt boon now bypasses block..

Wow you cared about the aegis? One tap or wand and it’s gone 100% for 45 seconds or so.

this is crazy, the only skill that give us a major boom to DPS and get nerfed by no reason…. WOW i guess i won’t be running a virtue based Guardian anymore, maybe even trade professions for Thief or Mesmer that never get nerfs…

Brutaly.6257:

@Evilcherry and Lumines
You guys are spot on.

If the groupsupport side (removal of conditions) isnt the mainusage something is very wrong indeed in a skill thats supposed to be supportive.

What it could/should do is lower the cd to 30s, remove all conditions on the team and convert them into two random boons per teammate and fury/quickness for the guardian.

During beta and bwe there were a lot of requests for an offensive shout and SY was (perhaps) arenanets answer but i think the above is a much better solution.

Haha, you’re partially admitting the nerf was unwarranted, or in polite terms, went overboard…

I’ll adjust, but it is annoying that with almost every patch we’re getting downgraded.

I don’t mind being nerfed on a self-only ability (and in sPVP only), if i get the RF while moving.

You really don’t play Guardian, or play it like a Warrior, if you don’t understand how useful was this change self and group-wise.

Okay. This skill was nerfed in PvP. From what it seems, it was only nerfed in sPvP, not WvWvW.

Let’s try to examine why.

The effect of Save Yourselves is to take all of the conditions of your nearby allies and bring them to you. To compensate, you’re booned to high heaven. Always remember the the skill does both of these things.

In sPvP, this has been nerfed because it was too powerful in a 1v1 situation. I do not think that retaliation was the reason for this nerf. When a Guardian is alone, this skill is equivalent to an “I Win” button since there are no allies to cure the conditions of. Given that sPvP involves a lot of 1v1 fights, this nerf makes sense. In PvE and WvWvW, the Guardian is far more likely to have allies around him, and thus far more likely to actually acquire conditions due to this shout. Not changing the skill makes sense here because being booned to high heaven is truly being compensated by the conditions that were just acquired. Of course, a Guardian could still play alone in PvE, but it seems that ANet has chosen not to nerf a skill because of a way that a player can choose to play but rather because of a balancing issue.

In conclusion, I can see how this was unbalanced, and I’m glad that skill separation between PvE and PvP was reintroduced to address it.