Guild Wars 2

Mikhael.2391:

Why is it that i fight against such good players on elementists, necros.engies, rangers even wich can keep me snared and CCed almost the whole fight and they all can kill me very well? guardians do not have that op condition removal and heres a tip: get all the stunn,daze,fear,blind or better even imobilize and cycle that on a guardian. learn to switch weapons when fitghing because my warrior and ranger have been killing a lot of guardians just by cycling my weapons and abilities every 9 seconds. plus guardians have no escape button while on the warrior or ranger i can escape much easier if i do get in trouble.
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How in the world can Rangers kill you very well? You have Wall of Reflection, Stand Your Ground, and all the Condition removal of the world, and you can’t stand up to a little bleeding and poison? I put Wall of reflection down on them, then CC them (GS or Hammer) and they’re in great danger of dying from their autoattacks and my hammer incoming (if i can close on them, Ring of Warding and bye bye ranger).

I hope you have some toughness on your armor, and you’re not one of the “oh i am so unstoppable because i have Save Yourselves” guardians that go in sPvP in full Berserker…

Engineer, do you see many in sPvP? I don’t. I always see thieves, necro and mesmers.

Thieves, i don’t care. They pew pew on my knight armor (you have toughness, use it), but if they try and combo poison+bleeding all you need is a good Smite Condition (or Consecration of Purity) and you’ll see them reeling before you are hurt that much. They hardly kill me.

Necro, they kill me PERIOD. Worse mismatch ever. Condition damage bypass armor, and they purge my boons. They can cripple AoE, and it has to be a really bad necro if he doesn’t kill a Guardian. No Wall of Reflection too (they AoE).

Mesmer, they’re a pain, but most of the time is a standoff. I cannot damage them properly, but then again, they won’t too. Worst thing they could do is confusion, but i can get rid of it rather easily every 10 seconds (Purity), so most of the time we hit each other (well, i hit their clones and images) but we don’t die.

These are skilled vs skilled player. Well equipped and geared, or well builded (in sPvP) with good synergies and balanced spec.

Try and build a bunker or balanced build (instead of a glass cannon build) and try and stay at the points and cap them and keep them on 1v1. You will see why the Guardian is top tier in sPvP.

Mikhael.2391:

Why is it that i fight against such good players on elementists, necros.engies, rangers even wich can keep me snared and CCed almost the whole fight and they all can kill me very well?

Be aware that great players exist for every profession.

I rarely see rangers and necromancers having that much success, but I can understand how a necromancer is great against a guardian, considering their good builds are about boon stripping and condition damage. About elementalists, the good elementalists’ builds are extremely defensive, which gives them time to snare and CC very well.

Those professions still have problems because you can’t play them in any other way. You have several meaningful builds to choose from with a Guardian, but being an elementalist without putting points into your vitality trait and attunement trait leads to absolute terrible results. I can bet you have never seen a power elementalist, do you? They basically spike like thieves, for half the damage, with attacks that are easier to avoid and slower to hit, die in 3 seconds like thieves, but without stealth to survive like thieves, and have elites that are suicide buttons for no meaningful effect. Now tell me if that isn´t bad. Well, yeah, thieves will have to be nerfed sooner or later, but power elementalists are basically the opposite, inneffective “magical” thieves.

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How in the world can Rangers kill you very well? You have Wall of Reflection, Stand Your Ground, and all the Condition removal of the world, and you can’t stand up to a little bleeding and poison? I put Wall of reflection down on them, then CC them (GS or Hammer) and they’re in great danger of dying from their autoattacks and my hammer incoming (if i can close on them, Ring of Warding and bye bye ranger).

I hope you have some toughness on your armor, and you’re not one of the “oh i am so unstoppable because i have Save Yourselves” guardians that go in sPvP in full Berserker…

Engineer, do you see many in sPvP? I don’t. I always see thieves, necro and mesmers.

Thieves, i don’t care. They pew pew on my knight armor (you have toughness, use it), but if they try and combo poison+bleeding all you need is a good Smite Condition (or Consecration of Purity) and you’ll see them reeling before you are hurt that much. They hardly kill me.

Necro, they kill me PERIOD. Worse mismatch ever. Condition damage bypass armor, and they purge my boons. They can cripple AoE, and it has to be a really bad necro if he doesn’t kill a Guardian. No Wall of Reflection too (they AoE).

Mesmer, they’re a pain, but most of the time is a standoff. I cannot damage them properly, but then again, they won’t too. Worst thing they could do is confusion, but i can get rid of it rather easily every 10 seconds (Purity), so most of the time we hit each other (well, i hit their clones and images) but we don’t die.

These are skilled vs skilled player. Well equipped and geared, or well builded (in sPvP) with good synergies and balanced spec.

Try and build a bunker or balanced build (instead of a glass cannon build) and try and stay at the points and cap them and keep them on 1v1. You will see why the Guardian is top tier in sPvP.[/quote]

Do you see any guardian using wall of reflection on spvp? it s a good abilitie but i doubt any good guardian will use use in spvp when they have better alternatives.
My guardian has bunker build and i do what i have to do and im telling you unless u specificaly spec against rangers or engies they kitten you. you cannot beat a good engie at melee range, your only chance is if they r bad or if u try to kill them with scepter(good luck).
As classes having only one spec to play wheres the diversity in guardians? i can spec diferently for random games just for the fun of it but as far as tournments go i have one spec and that is bunker spec.ofc i can spec for dps etc but seriously how can we compare to other more dps oriented classes in real tournments that have the mobility and burst?

i know my stuff, i survive 1vs1 ALMOST always but i cannot kill them unless they stay and fight like noobs instead of hitting and run back and forward or calling for a team mate to put me down, im SUPOSED TO SURVIVE one person with my spec but not killem unless they r stupid enought to persist. I will switch my SY for something else and move on but till reduce the CD or something it has become one abilitie that i find worst than the alternatives and wont be using a so oriented shout build no more!

Still use it on wvw as it means something still!

WOW! this was my favorite ability… which is funny because its instantly killed me on numerous occations. if they are going to change the duration of the buffs, can we change the duration of the conditions that you draw off others on to yourself?

Save yourselves is supposed to be a martyr ability. I cant handle the 10 stacks of bleed 5 stacks of poison , weakness and burn all on me for 10 sec, if my sys only lasts for 5.

i guess the problem was when bunkers were using SYS solo, did we really jus balance a skill around what the 1% does ?

@BishopX.

That’s actully a very good point (didn’t even think of that issue). Agreed, if the duration is going to be halfed in PvP then surely all conditions you collect should be half the duration aswell.

But guardians have so many means to remove conditions. Weapon skills, traits, utility, combo fields, they have it all. Why would anyone bring a skill like this without seriously taking into consideration their ability to remove conditions?

What weapon skills do we have to remove conditions? The only trait given to the Guardian is searing flames to remove one every twenty seconds. Utility and combo fields are another story.

Someone might bring it if they’re focusing on the sole purpose of giving boons to their allies and stripping said allies of conditions if applied. Nothing wrong with that.

Are you seriously complaining that a skill that buffs everything is getting “nerfed”?
Dude, when I discovered “Save Yourselves!” I thought it was the most broken thing I had ever lain eyes on. Especially with “Smite Condition” in our repertoire. Of course this skill got “nerfed!”
Why are you all crying about this? Do you have any idea how good our class has it? We are the most desired class to have around in a party. We have godlike passive regen, we have great defense, we have beautiful traits, Aegis on demand, burning automatically, Spirit Weapons that can be traited into greatness, and barriers.
Sure our DPS isn’t the level of some other classes but that isn’t what it means to be a “guardian,” is it? We are here to support, protect, and aid. Not to stab, kill, and maim. If you want DPS play a Warrior, not a Guardian.

You can’t think that way though. As it’s been stated before, every class should be able to perform every role. What if someone wants to be a magic wielding melee juggernaut? He/she should be able to do so effectively.

“Able to perform every role” does not equate to “performs every role equally well”. Warriors are ALWAYS going to be better at the role of being a melee damage dealer than say… an Elementalist.

Just because the Guardian isn’t as good at being a “magic wielding melee juggernaut” as another profession, doesn’t mean it can’t function as one. It’s like a Mesmer complaining that their feedback and fields don’t last long enough/have too long of a CD to be just as good as Guardian is as a close-range defender.

Every profession more or less can fill every role.
Not every profession will fill those roles as well as other professions.

And all things considered, most other professions that I’m aware of can’t give themselves 10s+ of every possible buff on command. We’re capped at maybe 10-15s of one buff, or maybe 2-5s of multiple buffs. Multiple, not all.

Arken.3725:

You can’t think that way though. As it’s been stated before, every class should be able to perform every role. What if someone wants to be a magic wielding melee juggernaut? He/she should be able to do so effectively.

Can’t I? Besides, it’s not that I personally think we don’t do enough damage. It’s just that everyone else seems to be crying that we apparently don’t. I was just saying that I can see -why- we wouldn’t do as much damage. Seriously, we’d be OP as heck if we did Warrior-rate damage, it wouldn’t be balanced.
Also, just because every class CAN do every role, doesn’t mean we can all do it as EFFECTIVELY as other classes. An Elementalist can’t run up and attack something melee-wise using the same methods as say, a Warrior. Oh sure they can still do it if they so wish, but with their defense it won’t be as practical, or effective.

BishopX.6453:

WOW! this was my favorite ability… which is funny because its instantly killed me on numerous occations. if they are going to change the duration of the buffs, can we change the duration of the conditions that you draw off others on to yourself?

well for me this modification at SY is fine…but i admit that this is a really good argument.

5 sec of buff with 3 sec of conditions can be good, because if you take a lot of conditions from your friends, these conditions on you can be refreshed on duration, thing that dont happen so easily for buffs, ok we have a lot of condition removal tools, but we cant remove all.

Rant rant.

They took our job….

Rant rant….
Ill I can see fro, these posts.

I wouldnt mind if it was reduced to like 7 second but cutting it in half is a bit severe

Mikhael.2391:

seems like ANET will only be happy when we get so nerfed that we wont be able to hold our own and not even be viable as dps while every other class in game is!

My guardian gave up on DPS a long time ago. My toon seems to be just about harassment and throwing Protection on people.

George Steel.1804:

Am I wrong in saying that this is the first ability that was changed to function differently in PvE than PvP?

AND THE ONE THEY PICKED TO CHANGE THE NORM WITH WAS SAVE YOURSELVES?

Wow.. just wow..
Lol

You’re wrong actually. Confusion was the first to be changed like this and it was done in beta, it was basically cut in half as well.

You guys are nuts.

Just because you haven’t figured out the right synergy to dps, doesn’t mean we can’t.

I can drop 9k on someone realitively easy, w/o Retaliation.

Yes, the Nerf to SYS sucks sweaty monkey balls. I’ve already stated they should reduce the cooldown in sPvP to mimic SYG or SY.

But a SYS + Meditation build is still phenominal, especially when you suck all the conditions from your mates and then turn them into boons while healing yourself…. still a bit OP.

Our effectiveness as Offensive Melee comes from our ability to take little damage. The fact that I can blink to a target in the middle of a zerg and stay alive long enough to kill that target speaks volumes.

1v1, 1v2… not that difficult. You just have to pay attention to what they’re doing to you.

Our Burst DPS is just fine. Anything more and we’d be seriously OP.

What I wouldn’t mind seeing is a bit of base +healing for our class (as with all classes w/ low HP’s).

Yes, i’ve already said that the nerf to SY sucks and they should have reduced the cooldown to bring it in line w/ SYG.

However, pulling conditions from everyone around you and then turning them into boons is still a very good build.

Amins.3710:

However, pulling conditions from everyone around you and then turning them into boons is still a very good build.

Yea but they are not the right boons, it only gives regen, swiftness, and protection because hardly anyone uses weakness(converts to might and only one stack boooo!) and confusion just gives retaliation which isn’t that great under the circumstances since only one class (mostly) gives confusion

I play an offensive ‘balanced’ Guardian Tpvp, and I fully understand why this nerf was made. Obviously the reuse timer should have been brought down into the 30’s, but that will probably be done in the future.

The nerf sucks. I don’t like it at all. Just like I don’t like any nerf to my class. That being said, Save Yourselves to an extent, was overpowered. Unfortunately, it more than likely got nerfed because of bunkers . There still is a counter to it (necro corrupt/any form of boon removal), which makes me wonder why the nerf was so.. harsh. But nonetheless, the skill was being used as an IWIN button sort of thing. The reduction in duration forces you to use it more specifically in fights now.

If you are complaining about the SY nerf, then you probably used it as a crutch. If you didn’t use it as a crutch, then you understand the nerf in one way or another. It’s unfortunate that it had to be nerfed so hard, and hopefully they will retweak it in the future. We will have to wait and see.

I still use it. You just have to be more precise about using it. No more “Oh I see a guy, Ima press SY before I engage or as I engage.” If you are good you will be using it at specific times in combat when you need the particular benefits it provides.

If they are going to reduce the duration of the boons, they need to reduce the duration of the conditions you absorb, and reduce the cooldown.

I hope they don’t make the skill so useless that guardians never use it…a guardian who has just popped SYS is one of the most fun things ever, as a necromancer.

Guardian damage is fine. Folks need to stop thinking that support, or having heals means not doing damage. The game is different, no face tanking bosses and dedicated healers are here. I support my group with a lot of boons, healing and do great damage all at the same time. I’m not in the back waiting on cool downs to toss out another few seconds of boons, I’m in the front leading the charge to the next target beating them to a pulp.

Revanssi.4623:

I’m not in the back waiting on cool downs to toss out another few seconds of boons,

I often find myself having to withdraw from a tanking role if an encounter drags on too long (most encounters – though I had an amazing 3-thief team yesterday that took mobs down so fast!). I’m in the back waiting on my self-heal cooldown because the boss wiped 80% of my HPs in one hit and there’s no other way to recover them.

My dungeon experience is something like:
Fire Save Yourselves, tank a bit, aegis a hit, block a bit, blind a bit Virtue of Justice (if the boss is one of the few that doesn’t reduce blind to being useless), try to keep Protection up with mace3, shield4, Hold the Line or Virtue of Courage, try a knockback with shield bubble (occasionally it works), use virtues and skills to give more aegis, try to dodge if I see obviously telegraphed uber attack, suddenly lose 80% of my hit points in one hit, dodge away, wait for self-heal, hit it and jump back in.

On some bosses it’s all good, on others it’s a bloody nightmare and I have to give up and kite.

Save Yourself was poorly implemented to begin with, and the recent, resultant nerf was also poorly done. The fact that you could pop that skill and get all of those long duration boons without drawing any conditions onto yourself was ridiculous, there’s no way anyone can deny that. Nerfing it to what it does currently is also ridiculous.

Save Yourself should have kept the previous boon duration, but only awarded boons based on the amount of conditions you actually drew onto yourself. The original version of the skill was overpowered, the nerfed version of the skill is stupidly underpowered considering the conditions you draw onto yourself will outlast the boons you get.

Very poorly done all the way around.

Dravyn.4671:

Save Yourself should have kept the previous boon duration, but only awarded boons based on the amount of conditions you actually drew onto yourself. The original version of the skill was overpowered, the nerfed version of the skill is stupidly underpowered considering the conditions you draw onto yourself will outlast the boons you get.

They can’t make the skill like that. That would make it useless in solo-content, which just doesn’t do in this game.
An idea that has been floating around the forum is that the boon duration should be 4 or 5 seconds plus an additional second for each condition you pull to you.

I had a pretty good idea on how it should of worked. Keep it at the current 5s each boon however, for every 1 condition you strip, 2 boons on the list are increased to 10 seconds. So if you strip and take on 4 conditions, you receive a 10 second boon for 8 boons. I think it’s fair. Keeps the solo part reasonable while adjusting it to help your allies and be rewarded for it.

Ynna.8769:

Dravyn.4671:

Save Yourself should have kept the previous boon duration, but only awarded boons based on the amount of conditions you actually drew onto yourself. The original version of the skill was overpowered, the nerfed version of the skill is stupidly underpowered considering the conditions you draw onto yourself will outlast the boons you get.

They can’t make the skill like that. That would make it useless in solo-content, which just doesn’t do in this game.
An idea that has been floating around the forum is that the boon duration should be 4 or 5 seconds plus an additional second for each condition you pull to you.

Well it’s a pvp skill for the most part. It’s only usable in solo content right now because it’s broken…it’s basically a free ‘gimme every boon’ at the push of a button, when it should be about condition control.

Hi Svarty,

I approach things in an aggressive manner and try to utilize all the tools in the box so to speak (not saying you don’t). I dodge every time I can which adds up to a lot of healing. I work to position myself so that when I dodge, I’m dodging INTO the group I’m with since my dodges heal, so I’m healing them at the same time. Also I’m using a hammer which is incredible for adding to my suvivability. I noticed a large difference when I changed out the GS (WR numbers are fun though). I try to keep protection up at all times on myself, as well as regen. In addition to my dodges, I’m never standing still. I’m constantly moving in and out of range of the mobs timing my hits. I mitigate a lot of damage by the dodge combined with positioning and I believe that it’s those two things that most influence how well I do in a given fight, not the skills I’ve chosen to have available. I also don’t pigeonhole myself into only using melee weapons, I will use ranged often. Sceptre is a really great weapon. I don’t think I’d ever recommend face tanking a boss, but if you really like being a bruiser, try out the lifestealing sigil and the lifestealing food to augment your self healing. It’s a great combo with my hammer and I feel the healing given is huge.

Svarty.8019:

Revanssi.4623:

I’m not in the back waiting on cool downs to toss out another few seconds of boons,

I often find myself having to withdraw from a tanking role if an encounter drags on too long (most encounters – though I had an amazing 3-thief team yesterday that took mobs down so fast!). I’m in the back waiting on my self-heal cooldown because the boss wiped 80% of my HPs in one hit and there’s no other way to recover them.

My dungeon experience is something like:
Fire Save Yourselves, tank a bit, aegis a hit, block a bit, blind a bit Virtue of Justice (if the boss is one of the few that doesn’t reduce blind to being useless), try to keep Protection up with mace3, shield4, Hold the Line or Virtue of Courage, try a knockback with shield bubble (occasionally it works), use virtues and skills to give more aegis, try to dodge if I see obviously telegraphed uber attack, suddenly lose 80% of my hit points in one hit, dodge away, wait for self-heal, hit it and jump back in.

On some bosses it’s all good, on others it’s a bloody nightmare and I have to give up and kite.

You guys probably won’t listen at all, but here’s my 2cents:

At some competitive sPvP level, ANet must have found it to be too powerful (in a way you did not notice).

And with the same logic that LoL designers use – They decided to nerf it instead of buffing other things, to avoid power-creep.

There are many skills that seem useless or boring in PvE, but bring it into sPvP and couple it with some well coordinated teammates and sometimes you get something ridiculously strong. (Don’t ask me how ‘Save Yourselves’ is strong, I don’t play sPvP)

That sort of synergy takes priority over the face-value of the skill.

OR they could just be mistaken. That’s always on the table.
But, nothing you say can prove that to be definite. It’s all anecdotal.