Small tweaks to improve the Torch
- Make the skill cleanse 1 condition from yourself and allies at the start of the channel.
Agreed. This makes no sense to me. I love the torch, any excuse to light stuff on blue flame, but have found it’s really weird that the condition cleanse doesn’t affect self and is only other allies (usually allies includes self).
And make Zealot’s Flame synergize with our Inner Fire trait. Almost a year after launch and I still cannot for the life of me figure out why it doesn’t already work like this.
(edited by Archmortal.1027)
There’s no need for Inner Fire to be affected by Torch #4.
There are plenty of sources of burning you will encounter when fighting players.
Another Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, a Ranger with Traps or Torch and the Longbow Warrior.
In team fights you can have permanent Fury from all the burning damage that gets thrown around.
In PvE you have access to gear with many more stats and food that all but removes the need for Fury as you can achieve a high crit build with good defenses.
Or gain Fury from the constant buffs your party is putting out.
PvP is more limited.
There’s no need for Inner Fire to be affected by Torch #4.
There are plenty of sources of burning you will encounter when fighting players.
Another Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, a Ranger with Traps or Torch and the Longbow Warrior.
In team fights you can have permanent Fury from all the burning damage that gets thrown around.In PvE you have access to gear with many more stats and food that all but removes the need for Fury as you can achieve a high crit build with good defenses.
Or gain Fury from the constant buffs your party is putting out.PvP is more limited.
This does just as good a job spelling out why it doesn’t need to work that way as it does emphasize the lack of reason not to have it work that way. So you know. If nothing else it would be more thematically appropriate for the skill to trigger Inner Fire even if the skill actually put the burning condition on you.
(edited by Archmortal.1027)
- Make the skill cleanse 1 condition from yourself and allies at the start of the channel.
Absolutely endorse this change. As it is, I think most new guardians assume that’s what the skill actually does and then are disappointed to eventually learn otherwise.
There’s no need for Inner Fire to be affected by Torch #4.
There are plenty of sources of burning you will encounter when fighting players.
Another Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, a Ranger with Traps or Torch and the Longbow Warrior.
In team fights you can have permanent Fury from all the burning damage that gets thrown around.In PvE you have access to gear with many more stats and food that all but removes the need for Fury as you can achieve a high crit build with good defenses.
Or gain Fury from the constant buffs your party is putting out.PvP is more limited.
This does just as good a job spelling out why it doesn’t need to work that way as it does emphasize the lack of reason not to have it work that way. So you know. If nothing else it would be more thematically appropriate for the skill to trigger Inner Fire even if the skill actually put the burning condition on you.
Saying that something is does not make it so. You did nothing to justify your point of view.
Activating Zealot’s Flame and having it apply the burning condition to yourself to therefore trigger the Inner Fire trait would be stupid.
It’s a poorly worded trait that could be solved by writing
“When you suffer from burning, you gain fury.”
If you want Fury from the trait, go and get burned.
There’s no need for Inner Fire to be affected by Torch #4.
There are plenty of sources of burning you will encounter when fighting players.
Another Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, a Ranger with Traps or Torch and the Longbow Warrior.
In team fights you can have permanent Fury from all the burning damage that gets thrown around.In PvE you have access to gear with many more stats and food that all but removes the need for Fury as you can achieve a high crit build with good defenses.
Or gain Fury from the constant buffs your party is putting out.PvP is more limited.
This does just as good a job spelling out why it doesn’t need to work that way as it does emphasize the lack of reason not to have it work that way. So you know. If nothing else it would be more thematically appropriate for the skill to trigger Inner Fire even if the skill actually put the burning condition on you.
Saying that something is does not make it so. You did nothing to justify your point of view.
Activating Zealot’s Flame and having it apply the burning condition to yourself to therefore trigger the Inner Fire trait would be stupid.
It’s a poorly worded trait that could be solved by writing
“When you suffer from burning, you gain fury.”If you want Fury from the trait, go and get burned.
I’m sorry, but I see no logic at all in your stance against having this trait work like the current description implies. Poorly worded or not, the current description does not specifically state that it is triggered by the burning condition alone. It specifically does way, “when you are set on fire, you gain fury”. I don’t know how your guardian looks when zealot’s flame is activated, but mine sure looks like it is on fire..until I activate the second stage of that ability. Its not exactly like guardian’s have an abundance of access to fury already, so what’s your problem here? Your comments have gotten to the point that it seems like you are attacking the other posters about this with your comments above? Do you have some kind of personal stake in making sure to prevent this trait from working as it is currently worded? I’ll never understand people who get on the forums and start acting like they are supposed to be holding the line to prevent positive game tweaks that will have little to no impact on themselves. Its not like guardians are top dps among professions in this game, and that one trait will not change that either way. Worse case scenario…it will work as the tool tip describes?
On a side note, this is an open forum for all players of this game, so no one has to justify their opinions to anyone else. Only the developers actually get to decide if a change gets made or not. I don’t see any arena net credentials beside your posting name, so….
(edited by ODB.6891)
- Make the skill cleanse 1 condition from yourself and allies at the start of the channel.
Absolutely endorse this change. As it is, I think most new guardians assume that’s what the skill actually does and then are disappointed to eventually learn otherwise.
I am also fairly disappointed on the lack of self cleanse from cleansing flame. The damage output and the channel time are a little lack luster as well, but I still like it for the aoe cone cleanse, the aoe cone damage, and the visual effect. I also expected it to apply burning to foes….considering its about 4 seconds of breathing fire on them.
6/8 Professions can actively apply burning to you in a fight.
Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, Warrior, Mesmer and Elementalist.
Necromancer’s can possibly apply it by converting boons into conditions.
Or 75% of your fights will lead to you taking burning damage, and gaining you Fury from the trait Inner Fire.
What you propose is to limit this trait to only gain Fury when someone wields a Torch and activates Zealot’s Flame but only leaves it passive.
So instead of having a trait that can be incorporated into many builds and all possible weapon combinations, you would rather it was limited to a single off-hand weapon, restricting it from the majority of builds.
So you want us to have less access to Fury. That’s your ‘improvement’?
If any of you actually take the trait you will see the 1 sec of burn to fury ratio is pretty small and gets a couple hits here and there as crits making it seemingly ineffective.
The fix they suggest is how the skill apparently worked way back when in beta, but was changed without having the tooltip updated to match how it works now.
By changing the skill to work how it used it, it would provide an on demand set of burst instead of random bouts of burst for more control of our own character and abilities. Maybe less fury overall, but more concentrated and when you want/need it.
Other classes have a cooldown or have to have a specific weapon equipped to have fury available on demand, possible have both effects active, 1s for enemy burns on yourself and 3-5 seconds on self activation with torch?
In the long run though, better use of more crit chance is found through gear and/or right hand strength. This trait mostly benefits builds with low crit chance and provides them more opportunities to trigger selfless daring, vigorous precision, and empowering might.
As far as cleansing a condition on yourself and the target, that would be extremely nice, but I guess the argument that we have a lot of condition removal already could be thrown in. I still would appreciate a change like that, even if I don’t use torch a lot.
6/8 Professions can actively apply burning to you in a fight.
Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, Warrior, Mesmer and Elementalist.Necromancer’s can possibly apply it by converting boons into conditions.
Or 75% of your fights will lead to you taking burning damage, and gaining you Fury from the trait Inner Fire.
What you propose is to limit this trait to only gain Fury when someone wields a Torch and activates Zealot’s Flame but only leaves it passive.
So instead of having a trait that can be incorporated into many builds and all possible weapon combinations, you would rather it was limited to a single off-hand weapon, restricting it from the majority of builds.
So you want us to have less access to Fury. That’s your ‘improvement’?
I think you you need to scroll up and re-read what I and others have posted. Take a sedative and chill out. I’m pretty sure no one specifically mentioned pvp…as this game is not entirely about pvp or pve. Your focus on what other players can apply to the guardian, in terms of the burning condition, is not the sum total of the discussion. There is also no mention of limiting the effects of this trait to only triggering when zealot’s flame is active (meaning that just like it currently functions…the actual burning condition from outside sources would still activate fury). Read for comprehension ftw!
Zealot’s Fire (thrown skill) has some accuracy issues, especially with the z-axis.
For example ~
If I’m on the center platform in the Clocktower and try to throw it at someone stood just below it won’t hit, same thing at mid point on Niflhel if you are on one of the rear platforms and try to throw it at someone on point, same thing at Henge or Mine etc.Cleansing Flame – This skill has lower DPS than any weapon auto-attack, the condition cleansing is very situational with the 400 range frontal cone only affecting allies and not yourself.
- Change the channel timer to 3s from 4.25s (A 29.5% increase in DPS).
- Make the skill cleanse 1 condition from yourself and allies at the start of the channel.
I just happened to pickup a Torch in WvW and it’s been ages since I’ve last played it. So I went ahead, equipped it and it was nice to see the crit damage it deals. But as you stated, it’s really hard to hit targets going up the z-axis in this game; especially when I tried to hit people on towers. And I always wondered why Cleansing Flame never cleared conditions off yourself when Ray of Judgement does – although RoJ needs to hit a target to bounce back.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
Maybe make it for every 10 hits torch 5 will cleanse one condition on yourself.
At most torch can hit 3 people so a maximum of 3 condition on self removed, and a potential of no conditions if people get out of the cone. A little risk and reward.
I was originally thinking every 5 damaging hits, but maybe that’s too much condition removal.
6/8 Professions can actively apply burning to you in a fight.
Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, Warrior, Mesmer and Elementalist.Necromancer’s can possibly apply it by converting boons into conditions.
Or 75% of your fights will lead to you taking burning damage, and gaining you Fury from the trait Inner Fire.
What you propose is to limit this trait to only gain Fury when someone wields a Torch and activates Zealot’s Flame but only leaves it passive.
So instead of having a trait that can be incorporated into many builds and all possible weapon combinations, you would rather it was limited to a single off-hand weapon, restricting it from the majority of builds.
So you want us to have less access to Fury. That’s your ‘improvement’?
I think you you need to scroll up and re-read what I and others have posted. Take a sedative and chill out. I’m pretty sure no one specifically mentioned pvp…as this game is not entirely about pvp or pve. Your focus on what other players can apply to the guardian, in terms of the burning condition, is not the sum total of the discussion. There is also no mention of limiting the effects of this trait to only triggering when zealot’s flame is active (meaning that just like it currently functions…the actual burning condition from outside sources would still activate fury). Read for comprehension ftw!
I started the discussion and I’m only thinking about PvP.
If you want to talk about PvEasy then make your own discussion on the Torch.
If any of you actually take the trait you will see the 1 sec of burn to fury ratio is pretty small and gets a couple hits here and there as crits making it seemingly ineffective.
The fix they suggest is how the skill apparently worked way back when in beta, but was changed without having the tooltip updated to match how it works now.
By changing the skill to work how it used it, it would provide an on demand set of burst instead of random bouts of burst for more control of our own character and abilities. Maybe less fury overall, but more concentrated and when you want/need it.
Other classes have a cooldown or have to have a specific weapon equipped to have fury available on demand, possible have both effects active, 1s for enemy burns on yourself and 3-5 seconds on self activation with torch?
In the long run though, better use of more crit chance is found through gear and/or right hand strength. This trait mostly benefits builds with low crit chance and provides them more opportunities to trigger selfless daring, vigorous precision, and empowering might.
As far as cleansing a condition on yourself and the target, that would be extremely nice, but I guess the argument that we have a lot of condition removal already could be thrown in. I still would appreciate a change like that, even if I don’t use torch a lot.
I got 3s of Fury for each time burning was applied to me.
Fighting a Guardian I had permanent Fury and 8s left after I downed him.
Lot’s of other fights offer permanent Fury. Engineer, Ranger with traps, Longbow Warrior and very high uptime from an Elementalist.
Saying that something is does not make it so. You did nothing to justify your point of view.
I didn’t do this, so I don’t know what you’re being so argumentative over.
Activating Zealot’s Flame and having it apply the burning condition to yourself to therefore trigger the Inner Fire trait would be stupid.
Not really. If it applied the burning condition (because you’re setting yourself on fire) then it would be reasonable to slightly increase the damage done when throwing the flame at an enemy; also it would increase incentive to throw the flame sooner instead of biding time and letting it burn enemies. But you’re right, there’s some red tape to get through for Inner Fire synergy since people could just throw the flame immediately and still get their fury. So it could be tooled to activate Inner Fire the way I think it should (no burning condition involved), or it could be tooled to still not interact with Inner Fire and just grant Fury until Zealot’s Flame (with burning condition) ends or the fire is thrown to give a similar trade-off as the Save Yourselves! shout (look, more thematic consistency!)
Calling a thing stupid without justifying that insult is kind of rude, man. Just sayin’.
It’s a poorly worded trait that could be solved by writing
“When you suffer from burning, you gain fury.”
Yeah they could make it more clear like that, couldn’t they. But saying that something could be does not mean it is. (see what I did there?)
If you want Fury from the trait, go and get burned.
Look bra, the title said small tweaks to improve the Torch so I suggested a small tweak to improve the torch. If I’d known all you were going to do was shut down discussion that didn’t revolve around your own suggestions I wouldn’t have posted. My bad.
Ezrael.6859I started the discussion and I’m only thinking about PvP.
If you want to talk about PvEasy then make your own discussion on the Torch.
Well that’s nice, but you didn’t really present the thread that way. In the future you might want to specify that in the title or opening post as well as not being so hostile to people trying to add to the discussion.
(edited by Archmortal.1027)
6/8 Professions can actively apply burning to you in a fight.
Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, Warrior, Mesmer and Elementalist.Necromancer’s can possibly apply it by converting boons into conditions.
Or 75% of your fights will lead to you taking burning damage, and gaining you Fury from the trait Inner Fire.
What you propose is to limit this trait to only gain Fury when someone wields a Torch and activates Zealot’s Flame but only leaves it passive.
So instead of having a trait that can be incorporated into many builds and all possible weapon combinations, you would rather it was limited to a single off-hand weapon, restricting it from the majority of builds.
So you want us to have less access to Fury. That’s your ‘improvement’?
I think you you need to scroll up and re-read what I and others have posted. Take a sedative and chill out. I’m pretty sure no one specifically mentioned pvp…as this game is not entirely about pvp or pve. Your focus on what other players can apply to the guardian, in terms of the burning condition, is not the sum total of the discussion. There is also no mention of limiting the effects of this trait to only triggering when zealot’s flame is active (meaning that just like it currently functions…the actual burning condition from outside sources would still activate fury). Read for comprehension ftw!
I started the discussion and I’m only thinking about PvP.
If you want to talk about PvEasy then make your own discussion on the Torch.
I couldn’t care less if you started the discussion or not. The original topic had no pvp focus and as such, I will continue to discuss this as I see fit…as long as it is a thread on an open forum for all players of this game. You may have created this particular discussion, but you do not own it. Your childishness is completely unwarranted. This is not a venue where you can take your toys and go home when you don’t get your way. Neither your hostility nor childishness changes the validity of any of the above arguments.
(edited by ODB.6891)
If any of you actually take the trait you will see the 1 sec of burn to fury ratio is pretty small and gets a couple hits here and there as crits making it seemingly ineffective.
The fix they suggest is how the skill apparently worked way back when in beta, but was changed without having the tooltip updated to match how it works now.
By changing the skill to work how it used it, it would provide an on demand set of burst instead of random bouts of burst for more control of our own character and abilities. Maybe less fury overall, but more concentrated and when you want/need it.
Other classes have a cooldown or have to have a specific weapon equipped to have fury available on demand, possible have both effects active, 1s for enemy burns on yourself and 3-5 seconds on self activation with torch?
In the long run though, better use of more crit chance is found through gear and/or right hand strength. This trait mostly benefits builds with low crit chance and provides them more opportunities to trigger selfless daring, vigorous precision, and empowering might.
As far as cleansing a condition on yourself and the target, that would be extremely nice, but I guess the argument that we have a lot of condition removal already could be thrown in. I still would appreciate a change like that, even if I don’t use torch a lot.
I got 3s of Fury for each time burning was applied to me.
Fighting a Guardian I had permanent Fury and 8s left after I downed him.
Lot’s of other fights offer permanent Fury. Engineer, Ranger with traps, Longbow Warrior and very high uptime from an Elementalist.
So somehow another 3 seconds of fury when you activate zealot’s flame is going to break the game? Is it somehow going to create an imbalance in pvp or some kind of complication in pve? Your entire argument makes zero sense. You are wasting all this time and effort insulting people and making non sense arguments….just to try to play developer and tell other players what they shouldn’t have?
Whoa, slow down there killer. Kind of unsure if that is directed at me or not tbh.
I’ll admit I only toyed with the trait in the mists and spvp here and there, so it didn’t seem like it lasted very long for each tick of burning, but I’ll go back and double check. 3 sec sounds like longer than I remember it giving fury for.
I’m all for making the trait more controlled and skillful instead of random. So that is my stance. Anything we can do to put the choices in the players hands so it is about what we did or did not do which causes a win or loss I’m all for.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inner_Fire
Yeah, its 3 seconds per application of burning (not per second of burning) I always run this skill in sPvP since there seems to be an insane amount of bow warriors in there for some reason. I personally don’t think it really needs a change outside of maybe needing to be worded correctly
Anyways, on topic for torch, I do agree that the cleanse needs to be available for yourself, just like ele’s water channel heals them. (Which is why I am confused as to how it doesn’t already cleanse on self.) The Z-axis thing is annoying and also effects other skills like zealots blade and such as well.
As far as putting cleansing flame on a shorter channel I honestly think it would be better as a trait. Add it into the torch CD trait to make it channel shorter and It would be fine. Just lowering the CD alone on it without might make it a bit too strong with both cleansing and that much of an increase in damage on it. Also the fact that it is on a fairly short CD to begin with.
Living Dead Girl ~ Necro
[Rev]
[Rev]
I still think this trait is meant to give builds more crit than the typically have access to. It is one of the first traits you can pick in that line and it is not a constant/reliable boon. Burning is everywhere though, so it will go off in spvp for sure.
40-50% crit with another 20% on top of already high crit gains less for a player than someone with 0 crit and suddenly they get 20% crit and are able to proc on crit skills/items.
I find that around 30% it is a comfortable crit rate to keep things procing with their 1s internal cooldown or more.
Now on the aspect of just pure crit/crit damage, more crits of course is always good, but then you have to go to the charts and see what gets you more dps, crit or crit damage, and also factor in maybe even power instead of either of those if your stats are that high.
Whoa, slow down there killer. Kind of unsure if that is directed at me or not tbh.
I’ll admit I only toyed with the trait in the mists and spvp here and there, so it didn’t seem like it lasted very long for each tick of burning, but I’ll go back and double check. 3 sec sounds like longer than I remember it giving fury for.
I’m all for making the trait more controlled and skillful instead of random. So that is my stance. Anything we can do to put the choices in the players hands so it is about what we did or did not do which causes a win or loss I’m all for.
It wasn’t directed at you, sorry if it seemed that way. I actually agree with everything you said. I personally wouldn’t take inner fire anyway as I get enough crit from radiance and gear already, but it would be nice if it actually worked like the tool tip describes…for those who would prefer to take perfect inscriptions over right hand strength.
I’ll pip in I guess.
Its my opinion that Guardian has some fairly lackluster weapon traits (i.e., only +% damage, -% recharge, and nothing special). However, some other classes, like Mesmer specifically, get some nifty effects along with their weapon traits, like -20% cd and skills reflect projectiles on focus, or +50 Precision and -20% cd on Sword.
We could take a page from that, and just have -15% cd and Torch skills remove a condition, which should be well enough for a Master trait in Radiance. Or, you could combine Inner Fury (thematically) and the Torch trait to give Xsec of Fury when using Torch skills, and free up a spot for some other trait (hopefully, it could help provide a way to add another damaging condition, and open up more of those builds).
Fishsticks