Snare in weapon abilities
I agree. You look at a Warrior (closest Profession to Guardians) and they have Cripple on almost every weapon. They also have collossal burst, better ranged options, and more gap closers.
Nobody complains Warriors have too much Cripple. I don’t see why it would be overpowered for Guardians to have some Chill/Cripple on weapon skills.
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows
We have the #3 on hammer that is an AoE root, #5 I think on GS that can pull, #5 on spear and trident that pull or sink respectively. It’s not cripple or chill, not sure if this is what you meant, but there are these.
Oh ya, the chains on scepter root also.
Also we have the spirit hammer that can knock down, as well as the hammer itself having launch that interupts/knockdown. Also a signet that knocksdown.
We don’t really need to slow or cripple foes, because we outright stop them or put them on their backs.
(edited by MrMacAndCheese.3907)
I agree With OP, guardian need something new to mantain the close combat range, but cripple on every weapon is little powerful. (the reach skills are just stupid, you reach the target, and then he go away again if you cant slow him)
I was thinking about something different, somethign like an Holy pressure for all the enemy that Walk on Our fields. (simbols\consacration), something like a -20% or -30% to movement, but the final effect must be chosen on the basis of the field “spam rate”, because the hammer simbol will be extremely powerfull with a snare ability, when the GS simbols need something better due to the Higher CD, And consecrations need a better effect then simbols.
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL
Yes, our nice list of control skills are useful, the thing is, however, every other profession also gets a reasonable array of control skill alongside various cripples/chills. We do not.
Warriors, Elementalists and Thieves can maintain melee range, Rangers, Warriors, Thieves, Engineers and probably a few more can maintain long range. Guardians can maintain standing on a control point yelling, “Yeah you better run!” at people.
(I’m sure there are other professions that can do all this too, I’m just listing the ones I have a better understanding of)
Kaimoon Blade – Warrior
Fort Aspenwood
Thiefs only have one spammable cripple and its with the Shortbow. It’s more of a head ache when you’re trying to get behind people to backstab them.
Lorella Windrunner – 80 Thief
Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer
We have the #3 on hammer that is an AoE root, #5 I think on GS that can pull, #5 on spear and trident that pull or sink respectively. It’s not cripple or chill, not sure if this is what you meant, but there are these.
Oh ya, the chains on scepter root also.
Also we have the spirit hammer that can knock down, as well as the hammer itself having launch that interupts/knockdown. Also a signet that knocksdown.
We don’t really need to slow or cripple foes, because we outright stop them or put them on their backs.
Read the following post.
Yes, our nice list of control skills are useful, the thing is, however, every other profession also gets a reasonable array of control skill alongside various cripples/chills. We do not.
Warriors, Elementalists and Thieves can maintain melee range, Rangers, Warriors, Thieves, Engineers and probably a few more can maintain long range. Guardians can maintain standing on a control point yelling, “Yeah you better run!” at people.
(I’m sure there are other professions that can do all this too, I’m just listing the ones I have a better understanding of)
In addition, Engineers can easily maintain melee range, and Rangers don’t seem to have trouble either. Both of those Professions have to tools to kite easily, and all they have to do is use them to keep enemies from running away, instead of running at them.
Thiefs only have one spammable cripple and its with the Shortbow. It’s more of a head ache when you’re trying to get behind people to backstab them.
They have 2 spammable cripples and an auto-attack that inflicts cripple.
Just to expand on that though, they can easily have passive +25% movement speed, and +50% movement speed while stealthed. Plus, every possible melee weapon set they have contains a spammable gap closer. Actually, the only set they could have without a spammable gap closer is with main-hand Pistol.
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows
(edited by Alarox.4590)
I agree. You look at a Warrior (closest Profession to Guardians) and they have Cripple on almost every weapon. They also have collossal burst, better ranged options, and more gap closers.
Nobody complains Warriors have too much Cripple. I don’t see why it would be overpowered for Guardians to have some Chill/Cripple on weapon skills.
Different classes, and different builds bring different things. The idea is that this game is a team game, and that where one part of the team lacks another part makes up for it.
Warriors might have access to cripple on almost every weapon, but guardians have access to aoe condtion removal, and important boon like protection, stability.
Warriors might have “collossal burst,” however you can build guardians to have “collossal burst.” You can build guardians to have 2+ gap closers.
Yes, Guardian’s ranged options are lacking, however that’s just another tradeoff like cripple.
But now they’re hating cause a brotha finally got some buzz
www.twitch.tv/Follidus – Team Absolute Legends
They have 2 spammable cripples and an auto-attack that inflicts cripple.
Just to expand on that though, they can easily have passive +25% movement speed, and +50% movement speed while stealthed. Plus, every possible melee weapon set they have contains a spammable gap closer. Actually, the only set they could have without a spammable gap closer is with main-hand Pistol.
Both classes have their advantages and disadvantages.
I play Dagger + Dagger and Shortbow. The only cripples I have are Dancing Dagger (costs 4 initiative — which is 1/3rd my resources) that lasts 5 seconds and Disabling shot (which isn’t a real snare, its an escape ability). I can use traps and venoms, but they last so short and are a waste of skills.
My gap closer is Shadowstep which has a 45s cooldown and I have two stealths that I can use to get up behind my targets. I also have 25% run speed signet.
Yet, even with all these tools half of the time I’m sitting there chasing people around because to do my maximum damage I have to be BEHIND them. The only other option I can do is just sit there and faceroll Heartseeker.
The reason why there aren’t spammable slows (cough 12s slows in SWTOR cough) is because they want to give you a reason to switch weapons.
If the target is out range from your greatsword then switch to a staff or scepter.
Lorella Windrunner – 80 Thief
Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer
It’s true that a guardian doesn’t have a cripple which I sorely miss, but they have a lot of immobilizes, finicky wards, and quite a few options for gap closers. Immobilizes are actually pretty OP compared to cripples and result in the majority of my deaths because you can’t dodge while your immobilized.
I don’t think different playstyles is a reasonable excuse for giving Guardians basically zero cripples and every other profession good cripples. Those other professions all have different playstyles too.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple
Out of all the skills here that inflict cripple in one way or another, every profession is listed with a good amount. If you scroll down a little, you’ll see two little Guardian icons representing one skill from an elite and another from a downed underwater skill.
That makes me sad!
Kaimoon Blade – Warrior
Fort Aspenwood
It’s true that a guardian doesn’t have a cripple which I sorely miss, but they have a lot of immobilizes, finicky wards, and quite a few options for gap closers. Immobilizes are actually pretty OP compared to cripples and result in the majority of my deaths because you can’t dodge while your immobilized.
3 Immobilizes, 3 gap closers, 2 wards.
Immobilizes are good, but they are very short. Cripples are generally longer duration and allow you to stay in melee combat instead of giving you a 2s period to get close to and hit your enemies before they get away again.
I play Dagger + Dagger and Shortbow. The only cripples I have are Dancing Dagger (costs 4 initiative — which is 1/3rd my resources) that lasts 5 seconds and Disabling shot (which isn’t a real snare, its an escape ability). I can use traps and venoms, but they last so short and are a waste of skills.
My gap closer is Shadowstep which has a 45s cooldown and I have two stealths that I can use to get up behind my targets. I also have 25% run speed signet.
Yet, even with all these tools half of the time I’m sitting there chasing people around because to do my maximum damage I have to be BEHIND them. The only other option I can do is just sit there and faceroll Heartseeker.
The reason why there aren’t spammable slows (cough 12s slows in SWTOR cough) is because they want to give you a reason to switch weapons.
If the target is out range from your greatsword then switch to a staff or scepter.
Poor you being forced to spam a 2-5k hitting gap closer with perma-25% movement speed.
Anyone who has ever played a Guardian knows that the Staff isn’t a combat weapon and the Scepter is barely functional outside of near melee range. Switching to the Staff is asking to be killed as you can’t defend yourself. Scepter orbs can be outrun with swiftness, and sidestepped even without it. If you really want to, you can stand at 600 range and avoid all of them without dodging. It’s an almost viable option to melee combat, but the problem with saying “just switch to your scepter” is that it’s basically saying it doesn’t matter what balance problems there are, Guardians could deal 1 DPS and inflict 5000 DPS to themselves per melee swing, just switch to the Scepter lolzL2p.
Different classes, and different builds bring different things. The idea is that this game is a team game, and that where one part of the team lacks another part makes up for it.
Warriors might have access to cripple on almost every weapon, but guardians have access to aoe condtion removal, and important boon like protection, stability.
Warriors might have “collossal burst,” however you can build guardians to have “collossal burst.” You can build guardians to have 2+ gap closers.
Yes, Guardian’s ranged options are lacking, however that’s just another tradeoff like cripple.
AoE condition removal: Requires a Grandmaster trait and only works for 2 shouts, or a 20 point trait in Virtues that will be a 60s cooldown.
Stability: One skill on a 30s cooldown.
Protection: One utility skill for 4s, one Virtue for 5s on a 90s cooldown, one weapon skill for 5s, and the Hammer Chain.
Definitely not a tradeoff worth 0 cripples, the worst ranged combat in the game, and low relative burst (especially considering the above requires very specific weapons and traits). I don’t see why everyone is against Guardians being able to do anything outside of sit there, not die, and buff you.
It’s not like Warriors can’t support either. You know they can spam AoE healing at 1200 range and buff with Banners and boons like Fury, and be tanky as well, in addition to other control they bring. If their support is too limited, then maybe they need that buffed. As it is, I love seeing support Warriors in my party.
Rampage Wilson – Charr Engineer
Sea of Sorrows
(edited by Alarox.4590)
They have 2 spammable cripples and an auto-attack that inflicts cripple.
Just to expand on that though, they can easily have passive +25% movement speed, and +50% movement speed while stealthed. Plus, every possible melee weapon set they have contains a spammable gap closer. Actually, the only set they could have without a spammable gap closer is with main-hand Pistol.
Both classes have their advantages and disadvantages.
I play Dagger + Dagger and Shortbow. The only cripples I have are Dancing Dagger (costs 4 initiative — which is 1/3rd my resources) that lasts 5 seconds and Disabling shot (which isn’t a real snare, its an escape ability). I can use traps and venoms, but they last so short and are a waste of skills.
My gap closer is Shadowstep which has a 45s cooldown and I have two stealths that I can use to get up behind my targets. I also have 25% run speed signet.
Yet, even with all these tools half of the time I’m sitting there chasing people around because to do my maximum damage I have to be BEHIND them. The only other option I can do is just sit there and faceroll Heartseeker.
The reason why there aren’t spammable slows (cough 12s slows in SWTOR cough) is because they want to give you a reason to switch weapons.
If the target is out range from your greatsword then switch to a staff or scepter.
You didn’t use steal.
I want it to make sense right away, then another sense later. Murkiness =/= quality "
- CCP Abraxis
Well everyone knows the scepter needs some help. I’d personally like to see the auto attack be changed to an PBAOE fire explosion that does the same thing as the tome of wrath. It’d give a condition spec guard more utility.
But we need a chilled condition effect somewhere ><
@alarox
It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.
After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.
[Rev]
@alarox
It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.
After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.
Right, but we HAVE to take things to get some form of slowing. Other classes get it in their weapons. You are right that guards aren’t it a bad spot at all, but not having some form of slow is really rough.
@alarox
It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.
After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.
Right, but we HAVE to take things to get some form of slowing. Other classes get it in their weapons. You are right that guards aren’t it a bad spot at all, but not having some form of slow is really rough.
And if you think that we are the Only “melee only” class, this lack become ridicolous.
Some teleport(that is just a teleport, without some snare effect) and 3 chains (tied to the weapon choice\signet) dont cover this lack, compared with other classes!
It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill"
LOL
@alarox
It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.
After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.
Right, but we HAVE to take things to get some form of slowing. Other classes get it in their weapons. You are right that guards aren’t it a bad spot at all, but not having some form of slow is really rough.
And if you think that we are the Only “melee only” class, this lack become ridicolous.
Some teleport(that is just a teleport, without some snare effect) and 3 chains (tied to the weapon choice\signet) dont cover this lack, compared with other classes!
I’d actually prefer people campaign about viable range before snares in weapon. I wouldn’t even mind if we have to do it entirely via retaliation/reflect or whatever roundabout ways they can think of. Just one weapon dedicated to ranged skirmish/siege is all it takes.
I want it to make sense right away, then another sense later. Murkiness =/= quality "
- CCP Abraxis
@alarox
It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.
After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.
Right, but we HAVE to take things to get some form of slowing. Other classes get it in their weapons. You are right that guards aren’t it a bad spot at all, but not having some form of slow is really rough.
And if you think that we are the Only “melee only” class, this lack become ridicolous.
Some teleport(that is just a teleport, without some snare effect) and 3 chains (tied to the weapon choice\signet) dont cover this lack, compared with other classes!
I’d actually prefer people campaign about viable range before snares in weapon. I wouldn’t even mind if we have to do it entirely via retaliation/reflect or whatever roundabout ways they can think of. Just one weapon dedicated to ranged skirmish/siege is all it takes.
This I agree with. Fix our ranged option and who needs the snares. As far as being the only class without the snares, is it annoying at times? yes. However, there are only 2 class/specs that I have ANY trouble always keeping up with, which would be P/D thieves (which EVERY melee has issues with) and D/D eles (which also, every class has issues with)
Any other time I have ever had an issue keeping up with someone is my lack of swiftness buff on my personal build, and also lack of any CC in general for my build, both of which were my choice. However, all of these situations could easily be fixed by a ranged weapon, without any need for a snare. If you want a snare, pick up sigils of ice or hydromancy or even glacial heart. Are the perfect? no, will the get the job done? possibly.
The only change I would ever want to see done with cripple would be adding a 1second one onto symbol pulses through traits, preferably in the zeal line somewhere, because as it stands our symbol damage is pretty much wasted by people able to just waltz out of them at any given second. Other than that our class is in decent shape as it is, and only needs minor work (like bug fixing and giving us at least 1 ranged option)
[Rev]