Guild Wars 2

So do I get a refund on the gold I spent on my GS and Sigil?

Are you planning on breaking Hammer next?

I really would’nt like to invest that much again, only to have nerfed by a change that should not have affect the weapon class at all…

Omg man…Nothing is broke. Other than the skill placement being changed..which sucks..but can be relearned within a couple of weeks. Personally I think them nerfing SoW was needed. It was OPed. If you think about it, witht he correct traits, SoW had an 8 second cooldown while WW had an 8 second cool down. Retal was up for 6 seconds as well. Pretty much retal was up almost 100% of the time. Stop complaining and move on.

~Dnias, read the various posts around, they broke a lot with the change.

I’ll break it down for you, the Zeal trait line deals with Symbols and has a number of GS traits – as such it’s a trait line for the GS and Symbols. Now the GS has a symbol that has a 20 second cooldown which makes all these symbol traits worthless as nothing was done to make up for the extra 10 seconds cooldowm.

Add to this that there are other traits for Symbols, so if you had gone for a full GS symbol build it is now useless.
-
Considering the patch only talks about retaliation etc and what actully got affected, it is indeed broken now. No one is complaining about the retaliation part of the GS nerf, we are complaining about things like the symbol traits etc.

So please, don’t try and state nothing is broken, when infact a lot is broken.

I doubt you`ll get any refund. And now I doubt Anet reads their players feedback at all. Guardian has been nerfed repeatedly and will be nerfed again, of that I have no doubt. I`ve seen it in other games with offensive support – as a game progresses these tend to be “balanced” to the buff-bot state. It`s just simplier that way.

So, for me it is either reroll or deinstall. I`ll give warrior a try, if they`ll be the next hit by nerfbat, it`s a deinstall for me.

How does the Zeal line deal with Symbols?

I guess maybe because I don’t put 25 or 30 into Zeal I am not in this situation. Regardless, my reply was mainly due to the laughable thought that anet might refund you gold for a wpn you bought.

anyone who thinks anet isnt listening to their playerbase is just either being ignorant or blind.

The GS isnt even hit that hard. Its just annoying that they swapped the hotkeys

ANet listening to their playerbase? Listening sure, replying no.

Crewmember: Where is my birthday cake?
Captain: …

The Captain is listening to the Crewmember. The Captain heard the Crewmember. The Captain did nothing for the Crewmember? Ah, there’s our problem?

Over 30% of Guardian playerbase is asking for ANet to at least comment on the GS change(so far, ANet has definitely listened. They heard us. We voiced our feelings out. What we get though, is silent treatment)

Over 90% of Guardian playerbase is asking for ANet to change the GS layout back to what it was.

Over 60% of Guardian playerbase is asking for ANet to change the symbol nerf back to how it was because Greatsword feels like an auto-attack-only weapon.

OP is not getting a refund for his Greatsword, but I am saving a LOT of money here. No more need to go for Sunrise/Twilight/Eternity because Greatsword is not a good weapon for Guardian anymore. Lucky I have not crafted it yet, or I would have ragequitted(Imagine crafting and soulbounding a Legendary Weapon that becomes auto-attack-only-useless weapon one week later)

Turtle Dragon.9241:

OP is not getting a refund for his Greatsword, but I am saving a LOT of money here. No more need to go for Sunrise/Twilight/Eternity because Greatsword is not a good weapon for Guardian anymore. Lucky I have not crafted it yet, or I would have ragequitted(Imagine crafting and soulbounding a Legendary Weapon that becomes auto-attack-only-useless weapon one week later)

Ah jeez, I just realized something. Do you know how many GS I’ve been gambling away at the forge. >.<

The symbol nerf hit me hard, since I am using lots of traits for symbols (large radius, more damage, heal allies,..)

Malediktus.9250:

The symbol nerf hit me hard, since I am using lots of traits for symbols (large radius, more damage, heal allies,..)

I myself had gone for a Greatsword/Spirit weapon build, as the main Spirit weapon traits are in Zeal it hit my Greatsword hard (2 Symbol traits halfed in usage).

I really hope they just didn’t notice what changing the symbol cooldown would affect – but i don’t have high hopes..

So do I get a refund on the gold I spent on my GS and Sigil?
Are you planning on breaking Hammer next?
I really would’nt like to invest that much again, only to have nerfed by a change that should not have affect the weapon class at all…

Your Greatsword is still a solid weapon, but some of its trait synergy has changed. You’re better off keeping the Greatsword and changing Traits around as appropriate. Frankly, as a Guardian, you should never be without one good copy of every weapon type available to you anyway.

To be frank, if you’re upset about the Guardian Greatsword and Retaliation changes, I can understand. But the scope of the changes in the Oct 7 patch were comparatively tiny. Developers—especially ANet—can and do make frequent balance adjustments, which are often wider and more sweeping than re-arranging Greatsword skills and doubling the recharge on one Symbol.

My point is: If seeing one skill on Greatsword nerfed really upsets you, you’re in for a lot more disappointment. Nerfs and buffs happen, constantly. They’ll happen again. It’s just a reality of MMO design that you have to deal with. What’s amazing today might not be so good tomorrow, and what’s terrible today might be a lot better tomorrow.

The OP is not alone. While I do not expect a refund on the Sup sigil, or Weapon (Mystic GS) I was using (It would be nice to have my 50 Skill points from crafting it back) I couldn’t condone scrapping all the work I had done to get the correct Superior Runes, or Exotic armor for my symbol build, so I did the only logical thing I could and switch to another weapon that granted a symbol. I went back to a Mace/Shield combo. It works, but it’s much slower to kill things. It takes roughly twice as long to kill one mob as it used to with GS. My Guardian is my main. It is the character I have taken through 100% completion and the one I enjoy playing the most. I am not going to simply “reroll” as some people suggest. I have invested a ton of time and effort into my main. Those people saying that this change was “not so bad” do not understand what this change has done. It is not a simple matter of relearning a few keys. I don’t even care about that. (It is however, quite annoying) It is that the change has completely trashed the build I was using. The extra 10 seconds added to the cool down timer on the Symbol have made it unreliable. At best you are going to be a sitting duck for 15 seconds of a fight while you spam the “1” key over and over waiting to recharge. If you have ever done this in PVP you know it’s suicide. Not to mention the implications it has on the PVE environment. The old GS setup allowed you to transition from one combo into the next one with synergy allowing you to keep steady damage and movement on grouped up mobs. Now you can no longer do that. If you get into a fight with a group of mobs you will run short on damage 1/4 of the way through the fight and then have to rely on spamming heals and “1” until you can use your skills again. In the case of an enemy like dredge who are immune to blind your leap “finisher” if you can even call it that does next to nothing. On a 15 second cool down you might as well just keep spamming “1”. I didn’t whine about the change. When I realized my build no longer worked I switched weapons, spent more gold than I should have needed to, and moved on. I’m posting now, because after reading comments like, “quit crying and reroll a warrior.” I felt that the problem should be explained to those who simply don’t get it.

I never once mention the keybind, frankly it doesn’t affect me I use custom binding.
Anyone who actually uses beyond 4 on keyboard is just plain wasting dps time.

What whine post is about, like so many others here, is regarding the change to speceific set of 100% retaliation uptime builds. They completely missed those builds and instead they have (Yes they have) nerfed GS dps. If you say they haven’t I am sorry but you either aren’t that good with a GS or don’t play it enough.

It just makes the play style I and so many other prefer a nonviable option.
Let’s face it, we have very few options for PvP as it is.

You honestly can’t tell me you believe GS aoe more OP than Thief, Warrior, Ele, Ranger and needed a nerf.

You shouldn’t HAVE to switch weapons simply because of patch what was meant to fix retaliation…

garethedwards.8145:

You shouldn’t HAVE to switch weapons simply because of patch what was meant to fix retaliation…

No you should always be switching weapons. No one in this game should ever be using only one weapon. You have 2 weapon sets for a reason.

There is so much QQ about this breaking symbols and symbol traits. Last time I checked we get 5 symbols not 1…

Lastly, the GS was always a crappy weapon on the guardian. The Oct 7 changes haven’t changed that. The guardian has much better weapons if you want to gain synergies with the rest of what the class can do. On release, I would have rolled a Warrior or even a Ranger if I wanted to play GS extensively…

Well let me try to stat it more clearly.

You can either try to adapt to the new playing style, which maybe tou at first… But hey in the beta most of the testers who posted vids played GW2 as a traditionel mmo.

Or keybind. Yes I know the CD doubled, but hey lesser seconds on the gap closer, that is wonderfull when in a team. The keybind will give you same set-up keywise.

Reroll. I know this sounds insane to reroll and waste another 60hours lvling a new profession, but that could be one choice. And soo far it seems like warriors are safe to roll.

My post might not be to constructive, but it is reflecting your OP I think:) Why ask for gold back… It is waste of a topic imho;)

On the sidenote I agree with people who are against the nerf.. Not because of the guardian nerf.. But I just hate nerfs:) focus on fixing bugs first, then try to balance:) But that is just my sole opinion and have no valid or reliable source behind it.

No you should always be switching weapons. No one in this game should ever be using only one weapon. You have 2 weapon sets for a reason.
There is so much QQ about this breaking symbols and symbol traits. Last time I checked we get 5 symbols not 1…
Lastly, the GS was always a crappy weapon on the guardian. The Oct 7 changes haven’t changed that. The guardian has much better weapons if you want to gain synergies with the rest of what the class can do. On release, I would have rolled a Warrior or even a Ranger if I wanted to play GS extensively…

Opinions stated as fact…

Opinion stated as fact everywhere…

People are allowed to hate when their favorite weapon, WHICH IS NOT EVEN OP, is nerfed.

As for getting a refund, oh i hope this is possible. That’s like buying a diamond ring, then suddenly the jeweler comes to you to say, oops that’s actually cubic zirconium but its practically like diamond anyway so… DEAL WITH IT!

That’s just BS.

All you complaining about the symbol need to realize the symbol’s are one of the fastest ways to get AREA Retaliation. So how do you counter that? You increase the cast time. So its 20 seconds now. Its still far from useless. Our main go to AoE skill on it is still on the same timer, and our gap closer/blind skill is on a faster recast. So over all its in my eyes an improvement.

Edit: Also the staff symbol is on a 15 second timer. So not a major difference given the swords symbol give retaliation which they dont want us to have huge ammounts of it. Ill give you the mace symbol is on a 8 second timer but then again its the healing skill of the mace. So i can see why i is shorter on the defensive weapon.

SiNoS.2147:

All you complaining about the symbol need to realize the symbol’s are one of the fastest ways to get AREA Retaliation. So how do you counter that? You increase the cast time. So its 20 seconds now. Its still far from useless. Our main go to AoE skill on it is still on the same timer, and our gap closer/blind skill is on a faster recast. So over all its in my eyes an improvement.

Edit: Also the staff symbol is on a 15 second timer. So not a major difference given the swords symbol give retaliation which they dont want us to have huge ammounts of it. Ill give you the mace symbol is on a 8 second timer but then again its the healing skill of the mace. So i can see why i is shorter on the defensive weapon.

by your own logic all symbols should have been nerfed. They were not. and As has been pointed out numerous times you can still get great AOE, and permanent retaliation. In other words the Great sword nerf did nothing at all to reduce the amount of retaliation in PvP or PvE. All it did was nerf the damage of the great sword, its combos, and its synergies with traits.

I also like how you and others discount symbol of wrath as a DPS skill or even a “main go to AOE” It makes me wonder if you even used a great sword. Take a look at the damage on the skills

Base damage on whirling wrath is 1,251.
Base damage on Symbol of wrath is 925.

Symbol deals 75% of the damage whirling does over 5 seconds time, on the same cooldown but with some bonus effects. From healing, to condition curing and of course retaliation. And of course with traits like symbolic power you (27% increase to symbol damage) It can sit at base 1174 damage! That’s 95% of the damage WW deals! Are you saying that decreasing this by half isn’t significant?

Symbol of wrath was great DPS and if it wasn’t apart of your main rotation you were not living up to the full great sword potential. Was Guardian great sword the best damage in the game? No but great sword deals less damage now and it hurts us that it does. There isn’t even an argument to that, it does deal less damage. having a 5 second shorter blind doesn’t increase your damage, the funny part is that it does however increase Retaliation up time because its a leap finisher (go figure that one). But on top of that great sword lost a lot of support and damage potential in regards to 5 traits.

Writ of Exaltation
Writ of Persistence
Writ of the Merciful
Symbolic Exposure
Symbolic Power

None of which have anything to do with Retaliation at all. And many of which great sword specs did use. So to recap Great sword lost Damage, combo ability, and support. But gained more up time for permanent (mobile) Retaliation builds. in a patch change that was supposed to reduce retaliation up time? All the while

Vengeful
Healer’s Retribution
Retaliatory Subconscious
Virtue of Retribution
Wrathful Spirit
Save Yourselves
Stand Your Ground
Signet of Judgment (did lose 25% up time on retaliation but now fires off faster)

These skills are untouched? Because clearly Symbol of wrath was the sole problem with keeping retaliation up. And of course never mind the Symbol of Protection + mighty blow combo from Hammer.

I love what ANet has done with this game. but giving credit where credit is due also means pointing out the screw ups. And they screwed up big time this change doesn’t address the permanent retaliation builds at all! not even a little!

And yea and OP you aren’t getting your gold back. don’t be silly.

Edit

The other thing that gets to me is if they were truly trying to reduce retaliation on the class/weapon they could have just swapped the boon. Great sword guardians would have loved something as simple as swapping the Retaliation for might. 1 stack of might per second for 5-10 seconds instead of vitality would have worked well. Given us something for the lose of retaliation and would have at least made some sense.

by your own logic all symbols should have been nerfed. They were not. and As has been pointed out numerous times you can still get great AOE, and permanent retaliation. In other words the Great sword nerf did nothing at all to reduce the amount of retaliation in PvP or PvE. All it did was nerf the damage of the great sword, its combos, and its synergies with traits.

Actually it makes sense only the gs symbol was touched. Its the only one of our weapons with symbol skills that can produce retaliation without weapon swapping. Thats why i feel the symbol was increased in time.

I also like how you and others discount symbol of wrath as a DPS skill or even a “main go to AOE” It makes me wonder if you even used a great sword.

I actually use the GS as my main. So they increased it. Truefully i still havent died once because of this “Nerf” as you all say due to the symbol being doubled in time. Thats including me being jumped by 3 vertern’s and there adds just earlier today. When i realized what happened i dropped symbol nailed Leap of Faith hit then with Binding Blade then swapped over to my staff to top myself up and charge up might then back over to sword after dropping staff symbol into another Leap following up with a WW. After a few chains of this i came out of the fight with all mobs dead at my feet never dropping below 50%. So in the end i really dont see much difference. So i cant purge conditions as much. In the end the Leap being on a shorter cooldown does me personally more good given its an aoe blind than symbol ever has. I look at the total picture instead of focusing on one skill thats still not in bad condition.

Symbol of wrath was great DPS and if it wasn’t apart of your main rotation you were not living up to the full great sword potential. Was Guardian great sword the best damage in the game? No but great sword deals less damage now and it hurts us that it does. There isn’t even an argument to that, it does deal less damage. having a 5 second shorter blind doesn’t increase your damage, the funny part is that it does however increase Retaliation up time because its a leap finisher (go figure that one). But on top of that great sword lost a lot of support and damage potential in regards to 5 traits.

Writ of Exaltation
Writ of Persistence
Writ of the Merciful
Symbolic Exposure
Symbolic Power

None of which have anything to do with Retaliation at all. And many of which great sword specs did use.

Ok so symbols as we all know are a combo field: Light so lets check something here Writ of Persistence increases how long this combo field stays on the field while Writ of Exaltation makes it larger making it easier for people to use this combo field. This combo field is the only one that gives retaliation. As for the Leap Finisher it only works with the field on the ground. Granted running staff or mace both support/defensive weapons you can use it basically on cooldown. But you have to give up damage type weapons to do it meaning you have to focus on your GS being your only form of damage.

So to recap Great sword lost Damage, combo ability, and support. But gained more up time for permanent (mobile) Retaliation builds. in a patch change that was supposed to reduce retaliation up time? All the while

Vengeful
Healer’s Retribution
Retaliatory Subconscious
Virtue of Retribution
Wrathful Spirit
Save Yourselves
Stand Your Ground
Signet of Judgment (did lose 25% up time on retaliation but now fires off faster)

These skills are untouched? Because clearly Symbol of wrath was the sole problem with keeping retaliation up. And of course never mind the Symbol of Protection + mighty blow combo from Hammer.

Ill just point out Signet of Judgment was touched :P. Ok jokes aside symbol of wrath on the gs gave a fast recast symbol on a non defensive weapon that let you swap to other weapons after you performed the combo. Heck i know people who carried the gs strictly for the symbol because of the gs’s damage output while they waited to for the swap weapons timer so they could drop the symbol then go right over to the hammer to combo every 10 seconds for retaliation. So yes the symbol on the gs was a major problem because it gave you a goto symbol that dident really hurt dps.

I love what ANet has done with this game. but giving credit where credit is due also means pointing out the screw ups. And they screwed up big time this change doesn’t address the permanent retaliation builds at all! not even a little!

I dont feel this is a screw up. You want to use symbols roll with a weapon like the mace the gs already outdamages most of the weapons we have without the extra from the symbol.

Because of the symbol nerf I either have to shelve my greatsword or my symbol traits, both of which I love :’( it was a fun playstyle and I enjoyed it. If retaliation being up often in pvp was a problem why did they not simply nerf the amount of damage retaliation reflect rather than symbol of wrath? Because I am not sure if you guys have noticed but we have plenty more skills that could be sued to keep retaliation up other than SoW, or better yet change SoW in pvp and keep its pve variant as it was before.

@ sinos: Having weapon switching combos was an advertised feature of the game. It was meant to be a way to reward players for playing in certain playstyles and combining different weapon set together, there are strengths and weaknesses to all of them (namely being in complete melee range 100% of the time for hammer/gs)

SiNoS.2147

I dont feel this is a screw up. You want to use symbols roll with a weapon like the mace the gs already outdamages most of the weapons we have without the extra from the symbol.

You are missing something very key here… In everything you said you are missing a vital point.

We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time. We also wanted to improve the combo finisher of the guardian, so we reorganized guardian greatsword skills to the following…

#1The entire reason for the nerf is that they don’t want retaliation up all the time.
#2The changes they made do nothing to prevent 100% Retaliation up-time because the key skills needed to get 100% retaliation up-time were untouched.
#3The changes they made did negatively effect, utility and damage output on the great sword.
#4There was no desire (at least they didn’t express any) or need to nerf great sword damage or utility.
#5The Nerf had nothing to do with symbols and their ability to combo retaliation and had no effect on any symbol build except great sword.

It doesn’t mean that suddenly you cannot play with a great sword anymore. I’m still using one because my build revolves around it but I have definitely taken a hit to damage and survivability. That doesn’t mean I’m suddenly dying all over the place. It just means we deal less damage, have less condition removal, and potentially less healing thanks to the change. This is a fact. It’s annoying to see other professions with the same weapon outpace us even more because of a nerf to something that was not needed, and completely ineffective in nerfing what it was supposed to in the first place. That my friend is where there is a screw up.

If they came out and said. “Great sword guardians were dealing 30% more damage than we intended and were grossly outpacing other classes. there fore we increased the cooldown of Symbol of Wrath” That would have been completely different, and at least made sense.

Lokki.1092:

SiNoS.2147

I dont feel this is a screw up. You want to use symbols roll with a weapon like the mace the gs already outdamages most of the weapons we have without the extra from the symbol.

You are missing something very key here… In everything you said you are missing a vital point.

We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time. We also wanted to improve the combo finisher of the guardian, so we reorganized guardian greatsword skills to the following…

#1The entire reason for the nerf is that they don’t want retaliation up all the time.
#2The changes they made do nothing to prevent 100% Retaliation up-time because the key skills needed to get 100% retaliation up-time were untouched.
#3The changes they made did negatively effect, utility and damage output on the great sword.
#4There was no desire (at least they didn’t express any) or need to nerf great sword damage or utility.
#5The Nerf had nothing to do with symbols and their ability to combo retaliation and had no effect on any symbol build except great sword.

It doesn’t mean that suddenly you cannot play with a great sword anymore. I’m still using one because my build revolves around it but I have definitely taken a hit to damage and survivability. That doesn’t mean I’m suddenly dying all over the place. It just means we deal less damage, have less condition removal, and potentially less healing thanks to the change. This is a fact. It’s annoying to see other professions with the same weapon outpace us even more because of a nerf to something that was not needed, and completely ineffective in nerfing what it was supposed to in the first place. That my friend is where there is a screw up.

If they came out and said. “Great sword guardians were dealing 30% more damage than we intended and were grossly outpacing other classes. there fore we increased the cooldown of Symbol of Wrath” That would have been completely different, and at least made sense.

You seem to not realize that the gs symbol was the single easiest goto for group retaliation without giving up any damage. Yes you can still get it from other area’s but you have to give up other things to do so. But with the gs without any of the retaliation buffs i was able to keep retaliation up nearly all the time before hand while also doing some really nice damage. Now if you want to do simular you have to run with the mace while using one trait build in paticular. You completely ignore that fact. We are not bad off with the great sword. Its still a very viable weapon. You all just want to cry because they did something that you dont agree with. Im done here. You clearly are just going to cry about it nomatter what and overlook anything that you dont want to see.

Sinos i dont agrere with you, because like many people said in the last days, instead of double the SOW cd, one simple solution is change the boon provided from Sow: simple, less invasive, and aimed to the perma ret builds.

SiNoS.2147:

You seem to not realize that the gs symbol was the single easiest goto for group retaliation without giving up any damage. Yes you can still get it from other area’s but you have to give up other things to do so.

What does group retaliation have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with the nerf at all. and was not effected in the least. in fact the easiest way to get group retal was not GS at all.

But with the gs without any of the retaliation buffs i was able to keep retaliation up nearly all the time before hand while also doing some really nice damage. Now if you want to do simular you have to run with the mace while using one trait build in paticular. You completely ignore that fact. We are not bad off with the great sword. Its still a very viable weapon. You all just want to cry because they did something that you dont agree with. Im done here. You clearly are just going to cry about it nomatter what and overlook anything that you dont want to see.

Retaliation builds don’t use mace… They don’t. I have no Idea why you keep bringing up the mace. Perma retaliation builds generally use hammer. Which is just as if not more damage than GS if a little boring.

Also there are different ways to perma retaliation and none of which require heavy investment in anything! Seriously Just using a hammer (symbol of protection + Mighty blow) gives you 4 seconds of AOE retaliation on a 5 second cooldown. That without any traits or other skills!

The only person here saying that GS is bad is you. Not another person in this thread has said anything about GS being “bad” I see posts about swapping to Hammer which is now flat out better damage than GS. I see posts wanting clarification on why there was a nerf to GS damage. I see post about synergy loss on traits. I see post about GS now having less activeness and auto attacking more. I see posts about not wanting to adapt to a new playing style, and complaining about button placement.

But only you are saying anything about guardians being bad with GS since the nerf.

You seem to have a problem understanding what is being said, and from the sounds of your post you are also angry for some reason.

This line

You all just want to cry because they did something that you dont agree with.

Makes me think you never read anything I wrote. I outright said that my problem was that they said they were nerfing one thing but nerfed another, leaving the thing they were going to nerf untouched. I also said that I currently (after the nerf) still use the great sword. My main problem is that this nerf feels like it was a kneejerk reaction without much thought put into it. So… yea… calm down bro.

Thread is at the point of tl/dr content, so forgive my butting in here.

This doesn’t apply to people complaining about retaliation or that sort, just those that insist the argument is over symbol traits.

If your great symbol build was just shot to pieces because of the greatsword nerf, why were you kittening yourself using a greatsword for a symbol build in the first place? Hammer and mace both do a better job of keeping a symbol on the ground.

If this is about the GS being rendered useless because you can no longer run a GS symbol build… respec? It costs 3s50c at level 80. There are a lot of good builds out there for someone that wants to use a greatsword. That particular build had synergies that rendered it too good, so it was addressed in the least invasive manner possible.

Is funny how it doesnt matter what Anet does AT ALL. there will always be fanboy saying.

A)The nerf was needed.
B)Stop qqing and adjust. I know I did.

Phoenix the One.4071:

Well let me try to stat it more clearly.

You can either try to adapt to the new playing style, which maybe tou at first… But hey in the beta most of the testers who posted vids played GW2 as a traditionel mmo.

Or keybind. Yes I know the CD doubled, but hey lesser seconds on the gap closer, that is wonderfull when in a team. The keybind will give you same set-up keywise.

Reroll. I know this sounds insane to reroll and waste another 60hours lvling a new profession, but that could be one choice. And soo far it seems like warriors are safe to roll.

My post might not be to constructive, but it is reflecting your OP I think:) Why ask for gold back… It is waste of a topic imho;)

On the sidenote I agree with people who are against the nerf.. Not because of the guardian nerf.. But I just hate nerfs:) focus on fixing bugs first, then try to balance:) But that is just my sole opinion and have no valid or reliable source behind it.

Yeah, I actually re-rolled. My Guardian lost a great deal of fun in it’s combat with the nerf to the SoW. Could care less about Ret but the increased casting time and decreased duration on SoW has killed the fun. Now it’s devolved into auto attack and wait for the CD which is not how I wanted combat to play out lol. It’s boring as hell.

So due to the changes I began leveling my warrior. Now I’m fairly happy with the changes because it got me to give warrior a fair try and I like it. Better support, better damage, better health pool, shields that actually work like shields, whats not to love lol!

So yeah, if you don’t like the changes might as well re-roll. The grass sadly really is much greener this time

Fildydarie.1496:

Thread is at the point of tl/dr content, so forgive my butting in here.

This doesn’t apply to people complaining about retaliation or that sort, just those that insist the argument is over symbol traits.

If your great symbol build was just shot to pieces because of the greatsword nerf, why were you kittening yourself using a greatsword for a symbol build in the first place? Hammer and mace both do a better job of keeping a symbol on the ground.

If this is about the GS being rendered useless because you can no longer run a GS symbol build… respec? It costs 3s50c at level 80. There are a lot of good builds out there for someone that wants to use a greatsword. That particular build had synergies that rendered it too good, so it was addressed in the least invasive manner possible.

Hammer is slower and doesn’t get the damage buffs that GS does from Zeal which is the Symbol line. Again, Zeal which is the line that buffs symbols also buffs Great Sword. Aside from that I found and do still find mace and hammer to be extremely slow and boring.

So tldr;

1) Why use a great sword in a symbol build? A) Great Sword buffs are in the same trait line that symbol buffs are in. It seems it was designed that way, so …

2) Hammer and Mace do a better job of keeping symbols up so why not use those? A) They don’t utilize those symbols as well as GS does, not to mention Hammer simply pumps out retaliation buffs with it’s Symbol field combo which is what Anet is intending to nerf/change while GS dishes out Condition Removal. Mace doesn’t output the damage that GS does.

3) Respec? A) That doesn’t negate what people are complaining about. The changes did “break” symbol builds.

@GrayGhost

Hammer does output the damage GS does, just differently, and at a different pace. Also, Hammer (and arguably Mace, although it’s a case of Apple v Orange) definitely does utilize a symbol as well as GS did prior to the nerf, if not better. Symbol of Protection is the cornerstone of many a Symbol build for very good reason: It’s one of our most reliable symbols.

The changes didn’t break symbol builds. It broke synergy between Zeal and Greatsword. This is a problem, but this is fundamentally a problem with Zeal before it is a problem with Greatsword. The longer recharge on Symbol of Wrath does not illustrate Greatsword’s weakness; it illustrates the Zeal line’s weakness.

Zeal has issues. It’s best for Spirit Weapon builds right now, but only offers ancillary support for every other sort of build. It’s a Trait line you dip into for damage support, burn support, and Symbol support (the bulk of which actually comes from a mix of Honor and Zeal, not just Zeal alone.)

Zeal had problems and Guardians adapted by managing to squeeze out a viable Greatsword Symbol build out of it, which depended entirely on one power—Symbol of Wrath. Now that power has had its recharge doubled, and the build falls apart. Why? Because Zeal is a problematic Trait line.

The community has caught on to this issue pretty strongly, but we’ve been advocating a reversal of the nerf, which only fixes a short term complaint. What we should be advocating hard is a Zeal buff, and we should be using the recent nerf as solid proof that the Zeal tree needs help.

@Eveningstar

I agree Zeal needs work, but this nerf again did break symbol builds. GS Symbol was the only Symbol build that had you fully invest in Zeal, and no Hammer and Mace did not utilize symbols as well as GS because again, GS Symbol was the only one to fully utilize Zeal. Hammers line is a different line entirely.

GS Symbol gave you Symbols that inflicted Vulnerability on foes, Extra damage from Symbols, An extra symbol of wrath when life dropped to a certain point, 5% extra damage from GS, GS attacks now also heal with each strike. The second part was Honor which increased symbol size, longevity and 2handed weapon recharge by 20%. Fully investing in these made a symbol build, I’m not talking about builds that play at Symbols or use them as a minor thing like a Hammer Symbol build.

Hammer Symbol doesn’t come close to that kind of synergy or combined damage output . Zeal didn’t need a buff until the GS Symbol synergy was broken.

You are speaking from the perspective of someone that dabbled in symbols, me and others are those that fully invested in symbols., so its understandable that you and I don’t see eye to eye.

You are speaking from the perspective of someone that dabbled in symbols, me and others are those that fully invested in symbols., so its understandable that you and I don’t see eye to eye.

No, I play a Symbols build—among others. I have two Guardians, one of which has been Symbols for a very long time. Deep Zeal, deep Honor.

Everything you say Greatsword Symbols could do before the patch, Hammers could do as well—sometimes better. Hammer’s auto-attack produced a Symbol far more often than Greatsword. Hammer is by no means a weapon that just “uses symbols as a minor thing.” Symbols are absolutely, crucially fundamental to Hammer play. It is the defining element of Hammer play.

The only difference between Hammers and Greatsword symbols—other than the fact that Hammer symbols are available a lot more often—is that Greatsword benefits from two Zeal traits (5% more damage, 25 HP per strike), both of which suck a lot.

If you take Zeal out of the picture, Hammer is still as reliable—if not moreso—a weapon for Symbol use as Greatsword. If you include Zeal, the only benefits Greatsword gets from Zeal is 5% more damage and 25 HP per swing. Both of which are, frankly, pretty awful and don’t by any means make Greatsword the conclusive symbol build.

The problem is Zeal. It’s a flimsy Trait line and the only ways you could make it work were:

1. Use it for Spirit Weapons, in which case it’s actually quite good.
2. Use it to “dip” for other builds, particularly the 15 and 25 point Minor traits, and +10% damage on Burning targets.
3. Use it for a Greatsword Symbol build, which mixes Deep Zeal and Deep Honor for a Symbol-centric build that also grants you 5% more damage from Greatswords (lackluster) and 25 HP per swing (ditto)

The problem is Zeal. Zeal doesn’t really offer anything to other weapons, and what it does offer to Greatsword is paltry, minimal even. 5% more damage and 25 HP isn’t what sets Greatsword apart from Hammer. 3 Combo finishers, two of which offer Condition Removal, and Might with every auto-attack along is what sets it apart from Hammer.

Describing Greatsword as the definitive Symbol weapon and Hammer as a weapon that only makes “minor” use of Symbols is just categorically incorrect.

The Symbol synergy you get out of Zeal helps Hammer exactly as much as it helps Greatsword. The Greatsword traits you get out of Zeal aren’t that great anyway. Why? Because once you lose your Symbol of Wrath, Greatsword synergy with Zeal just vanishes. +5% damage and 25 HP per swing is just not enough to make it stand out.

20-second Symbol of Wrath means Greatsword lost its one half-decent Trait line. This is because Zeal needs help. We need a better Grandmaster trait, and we need something a bit more tactically interesting than 5% more damage.

I’d like to begin advocating Zeal buffs on this forum, specifically to produce better Greatsword synergy (which seems to be the whole point of Zeal in the first place). I think that can help alleviate the Greatsword situation. I also think that the SoW wrath on its own is not so big a deal, but just illustrates how dependent Greatsword was on a trait line (Zeal) that just does not deliver. If I start that discussion, will you support it?

@Eveningstar: You’ve obviously invested far more thought into this (I never really liked symbol builds myself, so I didn’t play one) than I have, so I’d like to bounce this off you.

Mace and hammer get their best support from Valor. What are your thoughts on moving the symbolic power trait to Valor?

Also, I think a lot of the weapon-specific traits are fairly lackluster—hammer is the only one that feels special. Is the problem really Zeal or is it the lack of identity that most guardian weapons have?

Moving Symbolic Power to Valor is an interesting idea because it illustrates the issue behind Zeal. Zeal offers Symbolic support to weapons that don’t make much use of the Traits in Zeal. I don’t think moving Symbolic Power to Valor would solve the problem on its own, unless we figure out what to do with Zeal.

Zeal is intended to be a versatile offense Trait line. It encourages and rewards aggressive Symbol use. Deep Zeal builds automatically get Symbolic Power and Symbolic Exposure, but none of the traits in Zeal do all that much to support Symbol weapons. Scepter has no Symbol, and Greatsword’s Symbol has too long a recharge to benefit from either traits.

So then Zeal’s minor traits become extremely attractive to aggressive Guardians who want to make good use of their Symbols (i.e, Mace, Hammer and Staff), but don’t have any decent choices in the Trait line to support their builds. The choices are:

• Binding Jeopardy – Actually a decent Trait if you want to maximize Vulnerability applications, but really only works with Hammer. Scepter, too, but presumably you want to focus on Symbols, which Scepter doesn’t have. (Hint: This is a GREAT reason to support making Smite a symbol.)

• Fiery Wrath – Good, but only because it’s so universally applicable.

• Focused Mastery – Potentially good, but only if you’re going Mace/Focus (which is a great setup.)

• Spirit Weapons – And if you want Spirit Weapons + Symbols, you’ll need 30 Zeal, 20 Radiance, 10 Virtues and 20 Honor. Which isn’t possible.

I’m going to do a formal write-up of this soon, but the gist of it is: Zeal’s Greatsword support was lackluster to begin with, but now it’s actually at odds with its Symbol support. You don’t get enough Symbol use out of Greatsword to justify it. It’s a Symbol line with nothing to offer Symbol weapons, and is therefore used for Spirit Weapons builds (which are awesome, but restrictive) or as a “dipping” line that you drop 10 or 20 points into for specific traits, like Fiery Wrath or Focused Mastery.

I want to advocate change to the Zeal line, and I’ll get to work on that later today.

PS: I don’t think all the weapon traits are lackluster. Right Hand Strength is amazing and the Recharge reduction traits are useful on a support-heavy profession like Guardians. I do, however, believe that the Trait lines are intentionally designed to be (more or less) weapon-agnostic, which is to say that they don’t depend on or reward the use of a specific weapon (and consequently punishing you for not using that weapon), but allow you to play a specific playstyle with any weapon you want.

Guardian role and tactics change so fundamentally from weapon to weapon, so builds need to allow you some leeway in switching between weapons.

That’s actually one of the problems with Zeal’s Greatsword traits. Not only do they suck, but they limit you to Greatsword.

i love this discussion, and i like your idea to modify zeal trait.
you are right when you say:

Guardian role and tactics change so fundamentally from weapon to weapon, so builds need to allow you some leeway in switching between weapons.

Before the pach, GS Was (at least for me) a good compromise for a mix of support and aggression on dungeon (like 60%support and 40% close combat dps) and it was really fun to play beacause you move costantly: keep the boss, then switch, go buff allyes, return…( for now i play a normal support build)
so keep in mind that there are not only damage and support builds, but even mid builds ^^

Right Hand Strength is great, don’t get me wrong. When I describe them as lackluster, I mean that there is nothing about Right Hand Strength, or 5% mace damage, that says “Guardian.”

I’m just going to toss out a few ideas, most of which are probably bad and far from balanced. The key idea being that 5% damage might be balanced, but anyone can do 5% more damage—guardians need to do guardiany things with their weapons:

• Faithful Strike grant affected allies regeneration and/or cures/converts a condition to a boon.
• While you have a greatsword equipped, performing a combo finisher while not inside a combo field creates a water field (which applies to that combo finisher, of course).
• Your scepter attacks cause burning
• Critical hits while you have a shield equipped have a chance to grant aegis
• While you have a sword equipped, you have a chance to gain retaliation when hit.
• Increase burn duration and condition dmage while you have a torch equipped.

The cooldown reducing skills are handy; you won’t hear me speak poorly of them. I find it difficult to function without the 20% shout recharge reduction. This type of trait comes with the territory for support, and makes a great adept-master level trait.

What is missing, I think, is that higher tier skills, that are supposed to make the transition from “useful” to “iconic” don’t do enough to define the guardian, and that is where some weapon-specific, like the ones above, are handy. This is what I mean by lackluster—good, balanced, but uninspiring.

People are so upset over the guardian greatsword changes because the greatsword was actually pretty bad, it was the symbols they relied on to be effective; the greatsword just made it feel a bit cooler (do kids still use “cool” these days?). Couple that with a little nonsense in the trait lines and I can see some discontent brewing.

@Fildydarie

I really like your ideas. They’d definitely go a long way to improving ‘responsiveness’ in Guardian gameplay. Much as I love this class, I will agree that we tend to be a reactionary profession with lots of auto-attacks interspersed with well-timed utilities. Because our Weapon traits are very “vanilla,” our playstyle is more defined by the aggregate traits of our build and the way those traits support our playstyle.

Just to give you an example: Altruistic Healing builds work great with Hammer and Greatsword, but also function well with Mace and Staff. So the focus is on playstyle, rather than weapon.

I think there’s a potential downside to making Traits that improve weapon use, though. Guardians depend fundamentally on the ability to swap between every weapon. Even if you usually run with Sword and Scepter, there will be fights in which you really should be using Hammer, or Staff, or Greatsword.

So part of playing a Guardian requires not limiting yourself to just one weapon.

There is a middle ground though. Instead of improving specific weapon skills, you could improve skills that are shared by sets of weapons. So instead of this:

• Faithful Strike grants your allies regeneration

You could have this:

• Improves the effect of your third attack in a weapon’s attack chain. (So Greatsword’s chain might grant Might + 1 stack of Vulnerability. Mace’s chain might grant 20% more healing than before. The third Sword chain could count as 4 strikes toward Virtue of Justice, rather than 3. And Hammer’s Symbol of Protection could grant 1s of Stability to the wielder. Stuff like that.)

Overpowered? Maybe. But it illustrates my point: Because Guardians are expected to use many weapons in many different situations, Traits that specifically reward a single weapon actually reduce overall effectiveness.

This is actually one very big reason people are upset about the Greatsword nerf. Symbols are something several weapons have, including Greatsword. If you take a build that improves Symbol use, you still get good mileage out of other weapons, like Mace and Staff, that use Symbols.

Balanced builds are way better in this game hands down so you’ll have to balance out the zeal power with toughness/vitality gear anyway. Why not just switch it around and go for a more versatile build like 0/10/0/30/30 or 0/0/30/30/10 and then just make up for the damage stats with power/prec gear? That way you can play any weapon you want.

balancing issues asisde, (anets balancing is a joke and they have no idea what they’re doing.) AUTOATTACKING ISN’T FUN. no one likes long cooldowns it makes for a boring game.