Guild Wars 2

Before HoT guardians did have tomes. That got removed instead of simply fixed. We were told we would get them back. Now we are- but we just have to pay for it. I’m sorry but any way I look at that it seems wrong to me. As a guardian main since launch am I the only one who feels this way?

Well I for one am quite happy to be getting Tomes back. And seeing how they are attached to our virtues and not as skills, they are not exactly what we lost.

I get your point, but should you not be glad to finally be heard and to get what you wanted. Instead you seem bitter that Anet is listening.

In their shoes, I as well would be much more pleased with a product that is enhanced and made as a whole specialization out of, rather then a skill fix. Additionally, we are getting a new set of skills (mantras) so in my eyes, its a win/win and I can’t wait to play around with the firebrand.

Instead of useless failing class skills you’re now getting a full elite spec, with the scope, ability and knowledge to do something great with it
WTF do you people want? It’s like you’re looking for things to whine about

SrebX.6498:

Instead of useless failing class skills you’re now getting a full elite spec, with the scope, ability and knowledge to do something great with it
WTF do you people want? It’s like you’re looking for things to whine about

We already have full support spec. Plus that tome casting times of 2-3 sec does not look promising for competitive pvp and wvw….

Ragnarox.9601:

SrebX.6498:

Instead of useless failing class skills you’re now getting a full elite spec, with the scope, ability and knowledge to do something great with it
WTF do you people want? It’s like you’re looking for things to whine about

We already have full support spec. Plus that tome casting times of 2-3 sec does not look promising for competitive pvp and wvw….

your not geting the old tomes back these new tomes replace your virtues. and may have a totaly diffrent usee than the old tomes so it is best to wait and see what it is

Tomes beforehand were absolutely garbage and were replaced with two, much more usable, skills. Tomes were also not F1-F3.

Got any other braindead things to complain about?

Bvallin.4931:

Before HoT guardians did have tomes. That got removed instead of simply fixed. We were told we would get them back. Now we are- but we just have to pay for it. I’m sorry but any way I look at that it seems wrong to me. As a guardian main since launch am I the only one who feels this way?

They actually stated that tomes will eventually come back in an E-spec and not as anew core skill. They kept their word. I dont know why people always whine about such arbitrary stuff.

Ragnarox.9601:

SrebX.6498:

Instead of useless failing class skills you’re now getting a full elite spec, with the scope, ability and knowledge to do something great with it
WTF do you people want? It’s like you’re looking for things to whine about

We already have full support spec. Plus that tome casting times of 2-3 sec does not look promising for competitive pvp and wvw….

I couldnt agree more, which is probably why they completely reworked and who the heck knows what the cast time will be

Okay y’all need to calm down. My complaint isn’t that the spec looks bad, or that old tomes were good. It’s that we had these skills, then they were removed and replaced with some basic other abilities prior to the launch of a next skill/spec system. They then took those skills and fixed them, and incorporated them into a new spec. Which they are selling back to us. What if they decided to remove spirit weapons, turn them into minions like necromancer get, and sell them back to us for $30-$60 in the next expansion? That’s the kind of thing I’m upset about. Not the way the actual skills preform other than they were crap before and are presumably good now.

Swiftness, Stability, Regen and Protection…
600 range PBAoE.
Basically shouts except with a cast time.

WE HYPED OR WHAT

I mean it’s just like when they removed feline grace on thief and then gave 3 dodges with daredevil. And daredevil was also quite poorly made. These decisions usually show that the elite/class is of low/no priority.

Bvallin.4931:

Okay y’all need to calm down. My complaint isn’t that the spec looks bad, or that old tomes were good. It’s that we had these skills, then they were removed and replaced with some basic other abilities prior to the launch of a next skill/spec system. They then took those skills and fixed them, and incorporated them into a new spec. Which they are selling back to us. What if they decided to remove spirit weapons, turn them into minions like necromancer get, and sell them back to us for $30-$60 in the next expansion? That’s the kind of thing I’m upset about. Not the way the actual skills preform other than they were crap before and are presumably good now.

I think the difference here is that, from what I can tell, the only similarity is the name. I really have to push my memory hard but tomes were just a few elite skills correct? I’m not sure what Anet is implementing in this expansion is the same thing. Besides, what I do know is that the old tomes were just stand alone skills. These tomes are part of an elite class package, so they will have trait support and have the same restrictions that other skills associated with elite specs would have, unlike a stand alone elite skill.

I see the faux pas in reusing the name but as it goes, if it wasn’t called tomes, I feel you probably wouldn’t have a real issue with them.

The old tomes were only elite spells and they replaced all of your weapon skills. They were pretty terrible because Anet never felt like buffing them to make them useful. Thankfully, they at least removed and replaced them with something more useful.

To put things into perspective, the tome predecessor of “Feel my wrath!” was the only thing useful of these tomes and also in a pretty gimmicky application: Activate tome, use quickness tome spell, throw away.

This is also probably the reason why they moved away from these manifestated tomes as they couldn’t balance them.

The old tomes were clunky, and as stated before, only really used for quickness. Considering that they weren’t a staple part of a type of build, the new F1~F3 functionality seems very appropriate. Meanwhile… Spirit Weapons…

Bvallin.4931:

Okay y’all need to calm down. My complaint isn’t that the spec looks bad, or that old tomes were good. It’s that we had these skills, then they were removed and replaced with some basic other abilities prior to the launch of a next skill/spec system. They then took those skills and fixed them, and incorporated them into a new spec. Which they are selling back to us. What if they decided to remove spirit weapons, turn them into minions like necromancer get, and sell them back to us for $30-$60 in the next expansion? That’s the kind of thing I’m upset about. Not the way the actual skills preform other than they were crap before and are presumably good now.

Alright so I’ll say it again because apparently that wasn’t clear last time-
They took out 2 very bad skills, turned them into something useful and then took the idea of these 2 bad skills (Which people did like) and implemented in a full on elite spec, hopefully well tuned this time.

I see nothing wrong about replacing garbage with useful, and re-implement this garbage WELL a second time around. I dont get what the hell is this about, did you expect them to just use these tomes on core Guard’s F1-3?
This elite spec was coming anyway, it was an idea that people liked and wanted it to come back, why the hell are people whining over everything

LetoII.3782:

Swiftness, Stability, Regen and Protection…
600 range PBAoE.
Basically shouts except with a cast time.

WE HYPED OR WHAT

Yesssss, because we totally needed more point-blank AoE support in the game. /s

I guess real tomes are never coming back; and neither am I~

SrebX.6498:

I see nothing wrong about replacing garbage with useful, and re-implement this garbage WELL a second time around. I dont get what the hell is this about, did you expect them to just use these tomes on core Guard’s F1-3?
This elite spec was coming anyway, it was an idea that people liked and wanted it to come back, why the hell are people whining over everything

Removing tomes and then “bringing them back” as 5 shouts in each kit isn’t ideal, and that’s putting it lightly. These things aren’t tomes.

Fashion Mage.3712:

SrebX.6498:

I see nothing wrong about replacing garbage with useful, and re-implement this garbage WELL a second time around. I dont get what the hell is this about, did you expect them to just use these tomes on core Guard’s F1-3?
This elite spec was coming anyway, it was an idea that people liked and wanted it to come back, why the hell are people whining over everything

Removing tomes and then “bringing them back” as 5 shouts in each kit isn’t ideal, and that’s putting it lightly. These things aren’t tomes.

Well, first of all, you’re now talking about how the skills would work which A- Wasn’t the point of the discussion and B- We really don’t know yet
I mean, you’re going to have freakin’ 15 tome skills, I doubt they’re all the same as shouts
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying we don’t know yet. Lets just wait before we get so negative. Im actually optimistic about these tomes, I wanted them back!

SrebX.6498:

Well, first of all, you’re now talking about how the skills would work which A- Wasn’t the point of the discussion and B- We really don’t know yet
I mean, you’re going to have freakin’ 15 tome skills, I doubt they’re all the same as shouts
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying we don’t know yet. Lets just wait before we get so negative. Im actually optimistic about these tomes, I wanted them back!

Well that’s fine, but if they’re not going to work like how tomes worked, then why call them tomes. For me personally, it was just a giant kittenslap because I was actually expecting real tomes to make a return after they were removed without an attempt to even balance them.
I’ve seen almost all of them, and 80% of them are point-blank 600 range AoEs. A few of them are cones and I think one of them can be ground-targeted a very short distance away (like 300 range at most).

Also kind of mildly annoying how they got rid of all the monk prayer references in tomes and replaced them with generic Elonian history.

It’s not going to be a resell if it’s completely new from the ground up. And players will buy their revamped Tombs because they wanted to give up their original crappy Tombs anyways.

If we’re able to compare these F1-f3 Tombs with the old Tombs, the elite spec will fail.
(I’m sure color/animation/CD’s, will all be different.)

I wouldn’t call them a resell because they’re like tomes; I’d call them a resell because they’re just better versions of shouts.

I was hoping for them to be kits using them when you like with medium-small cd of their skills. But seing 90 sec cd and no proper defense block on f3 will be dissaster in any competitive pvp and wvw. Mantras are not good, they should be giving daze to enemies cause they are like shouts now.

Ragnarox.9601:

We already have full support spec. Plus that tome casting times of 2-3 sec does not look promising for competitive pvp and wvw....

Where is that viable full support spec? I didn’t really see it anywhere... oh right, only WvW.
It’s not about the fact that we have a support build in one game mode, it’s about the fact that other classes that have support builds can be supports in all game modes and do so efficiently. With Firebrand we might be viable burst supports in every aspect of the game.
And if it comes to long cast times, nobody forces you to use such skills without stability or inside of a thick battle.

Rodzynald.5897:

Ragnarox.9601:

We already have full support spec. Plus that tome casting times of 2-3 sec does not look promising for competitive pvp and wvw….

Where is that viable full support spec? I didn’t really see it anywhere… oh right, only WvW.
It’s not about the fact that we have a support build in one game mode, it’s about the fact that other classes that have support builds can be supports in all game modes and do so efficiently. With Firebrand we might be viable burst supports in every aspect of the game.
And if it comes to long cast times, nobody forces you to use such skills without stability or inside of a thick battle.

Firebrand does not have anything better than chrono or druid does now. They can be support but can very deadly as a dps. I dont see firebrands deadly at all cause you are locked in tomes cause of 90 sec cd’s. Kits would be more interesting and better. But now its just guardian shouts v2.

Rodzynald.5897:

nobody forces you to use such skills without stability or inside of a thick battle.

You’re holding an axe and all your skills are 600 range.
Where do you see yourself standing?

LetoII.3782:

Rodzynald.5897:

nobody forces you to use such skills without stability or inside of a thick battle.

You’re holding an axe and all your skills are 600 range.
Where do you see yourself standing?

This. Why the hell are tomes 600 range, even the staff literally has more range on its abilities. If they have such a hard-on for shouts then why didn’t they just buff them.

@OP feels a bit scamaz to me. Other ppl make legitimate points, but still rubs me the wrong way. Then again might be cuz nothing they showed had me excited in any way. Hype ded.

It’s not a resell at all; my understanding is that the ‘tomes’ are actually Mantras, like Mesmers have … they aren’t anything at all like what we had before. Similar in name only.

So. You’re paying 30$ for Firebrand? What are you paying for the rest of the expansion? Because I’m paying 80$ for all the elite specs and everything else the top package gives me. You might want to contact support.

These are nothing like the old tomes mechanically, these are completely different skills… and they’re not really shouts either… they’re kits; the tomes of courage and justice have damaging skills on them, and most of the cast times are below 1 second, with only one of them with a cast time of 1 1/4 second.

The old tomes also weren’t “patched out” in my opinion. They were stripped down to the only things they were used for… tome of wrath was changed to just the AE quickness and fury, the main reason anyone ever used that tome… and the tome of courage was changed to just the AE full heal and an AE passive health per second, also the only reason anyone ever used that tome…

You can look at the tooltips here: http://i.imgur.com/rncbRSa.jpg

You’ll find that the similarities end at the name and the fact that it’s a kit.

Bvallin.4931:

What if they decided to remove spirit weapons, turn them into minions like necromancer get, and sell them back to us for $30-$60 in the next expansion? That’s the kind of thing I’m upset about. Not the way the actual skills preform other than they were crap before and are presumably good now.

It’s really not the same at all… to make this analogy equivalent, they’d have to also:

1. Replace the spirit weapons with new skills that fulfills a similar function, like the tome of wrath becoming a quickness shout and tome of courage becoming a full heal.

2. Change the type of skill spirit weapons are entirely, in this case making them a profession mechanic outside of the 10 slot bar.

3. Change their functionality entirely and completely changing their art and assets… other than the fact it would be a summoned AI.

Also, as others have pointed out, the 3 tomes don’t cost 30-60$… the entire expansion does.

Syktek.7912:

Tomes beforehand were absolutely garbage and were replaced with two, much more usable, skills. Tomes were also not F1-F3.

Got any other braindead things to complain about?

I use to wreck people like you that thought tomes were bad. Tomes were epic if used correctly. It is all about timing and group comp! Anyone who says otherwise is just mad cause they did not know how it functions properly.

^
Any elite that needs more than one button pressed is too “clunky” for this community.

Malthurius.6870:

The old tomes also weren’t “patched out” in my opinion. They were stripped down to the only things they were used for… tome of wrath was changed to just the AE quickness and fury, the main reason anyone ever used that tome… and the tome of courage was changed to just the AE full heal and an AE passive health per second, also the only reason anyone ever used that tome…

Well then you, like most people, don’t actually know why Tome of Courage was used, because it wasn’t the full heal.

Fashion Mage.3712:

^
Any elite that needs more than one button pressed is too “clunky” for this community.

Malthurius.6870:

The old tomes also weren’t “patched out” in my opinion. They were stripped down to the only things they were used for… tome of wrath was changed to just the AE quickness and fury, the main reason anyone ever used that tome… and the tome of courage was changed to just the AE full heal and an AE passive health per second, also the only reason anyone ever used that tome…

Well then you, like most people, don’t actually know why Tome of Courage was used, because it wasn’t the full heal.

You’re right, the full heal was too slow to be usable at all. I can’t really remember why anyone ran Tome of Courage in the past, I was personally a bigger fan of Tome of Wrath… I think I recall Tome of Courage having an AE stun or daze on it… but the full heal was definitely the big important skill on the Tome of Courage, or at least, it was set up to be.

Edit: It had a ground targeted heal, a bouncing blind, regen and protection, ae cone daze, and the long cast full heal. Still, it’s not that great since I seem to recall the tomes locking you out of your utilities, meaning that if you were focused or stunned you could do nothing about it. Taking an elite just for a 3 second cone daze and protection seems pretty weak too when compared to renewed focus.

Malthurius.6870:

Fashion Mage.3712:

^
Any elite that needs more than one button pressed is too “clunky” for this community.

Malthurius.6870:

The old tomes also weren’t “patched out” in my opinion. They were stripped down to the only things they were used for… tome of wrath was changed to just the AE quickness and fury, the main reason anyone ever used that tome… and the tome of courage was changed to just the AE full heal and an AE passive health per second, also the only reason anyone ever used that tome…

Well then you, like most people, don’t actually know why Tome of Courage was used, because it wasn’t the full heal.

You’re right, the full heal was too slow to be usable at all. I can’t really remember why anyone ran Tome of Courage in the past, I was personally a bigger fan of Tome of Wrath… I think I recall Tome of Courage having an AE stun or daze on it… but the full heal was definitely the big important skill on the Tome of Courage, or at least, it was set up to be.

Edit: It had a ground targeted heal, a bouncing blind, regen and protection, ae cone daze, and the long cast full heal. Still, it’s not that great since I seem to recall the tomes locking you out of your utilities, meaning that if you were focused or stunned you could do nothing about it. Taking an elite just for a 3 second cone daze and protection seems pretty weak too when compared to renewed focus.

Tome of Courage had pulsing stability and protection. It was hard to get focused or cc’d.

Just spamming the auto alone could heal a whole group back when there was no such thing as a healer and everything that healed allies either had a huge cooldown or abyssmal values.

^someone who actually knows something about what tomes were and why they were used.

Malthurius.6870:

Edit: It had a ground targeted heal, a bouncing blind, regen and protection, ae cone daze, and the long cast full heal. Still, it’s not that great since I seem to recall the tomes locking you out of your utilities, meaning that if you were focused or stunned you could do nothing about it. Taking an elite just for a 3 second cone daze and protection seems pretty weak too when compared to renewed focus.

I’ll be frank, Tome of Courage was used for Heal Area, but the rest of what it offered was good too. The tomes also offered pulsing stability and protection (and a toughness/vitality buff) so being interrupted wasn’t much of a concern especially if it was used at long-range.