Guild Wars 2

The purpose of this thread is to facilitate discussion on balancing the guardian’s skills and traits and address current flaws; all while simultaneously accounting for interprofessional balance.

Message to the community

Feel free to drop feedback in this thread. I read everything here and will make changes if necessary. There is a lot of content. Please save your responses as sometimes the forum “bugs out” and eats your response.

Cast a vote on the strawpoll link above after reading the suggestions to share whether you approve or disapprove of these suggestions.

Message to the ArenaNet developers

Please take a look at these suggestions, and consider them for a future patch.

Updates

• 03/10/2016 – Beta revision 2 released. Criticism welcomed / Please vote on the strawpoll link above. Editing put on hold to collect feedback.
• 03/10/2016 – Beta revision 1 completed. Feedback results: 2.38/4 from 24 voters Screen cap
• 03/03/2016 – Beta revision 1 released. Criticism welcomed / Please vote on the strawpoll link above. Editing put on hold to collect feedback.
• 03/03/2016 – Public alpha draft completed.
• 02/29/2016 – Public alpha – Undergoing heavy construction. Please hold off on commentary until document reaches “Beta”

FAQ

Preview (Traits)

Other Balance Discussions

The DPS of the guardian in PvE is actually one of the best. It’s 3rd best dps at Sabetha with the hammer build. Of course, Guardian’s dps is sensible to movement (boss move out of their symbol), and to quickness (they lose more dps when losing quickness than most other profession). But still, in most situation, it’s probably between 3 and 5th place in term dps.

For what problem the guardian have.

- Super high unbalance between Virtue of Resolve and Wing of Resolve. The later have a 4 times stronger active.

- Unbalance between Purification and every other heals of the guardian. It’s 60% to 160% stronger than all other heals, while having the added benefice of doing damage.

- The Sword is in a very very bad situation and need a lot of work.

- Litany of Wrath, Merciful Intervention, Signet of Mercy, Signet of Courage and Spirit Weapons all need some major work, because right now. None of them have any use (or very limited one)

- Hallowed Ground and Sanctuary need some small rebalance. They have very narrow and specific use and you can often find a better option in the guardian kitten nal anyway.

- Rebalance of DH trait line, which is way more powerful than most other line. Making it a must have in pretty much all build in all mode. A problem that most profession have these days and that limit build diversity.

- Glacial Heart need to be moved. It’s in the worst place ever and will never be used when it is.

Guardians suffer the same problems every other class suffers from … only having 1-2 viable builds for most content and 50% of our traits/utilities/weapons not getting any use, because they are either terrible or they just can’t compete against better options. Anet compounds the problem by focusing all their resources on keeping the 1-2 builds balance, never critically thinking about improving aspects of the Guardian that have never been utilized since launch.

They sem to do it on all classes. 1-2 builds in focus rest ignored.

Wolfric.9380:

They sem to do it on all classes. 1-2 builds in focus rest ignored.

Yes and no. The community is great at putting considering only 1 build as good and everything else as garbage.

For exemple, in PvE Hammer , GS + Longbow, GS + Mace, Condi and Specter build are all pretty much at +/- 15% difference in term of dps, in a game when the DPS of the same build can easily vary by 50% depending on how skill the player using it is and what is the content.

Is it anet fault or is it the community that always only focus on the very best build in one specific situation and put everything else in the garbage category by default? When Dungeon and Fractal were used to test the build and GS + Longbow was view as the best, everything was garbage. When raid were used to test and Hammer is now view as the best option, everything else is garbage.

I’m not saying that anet is doing fine. Sword and Spirt Weapons are still gargabe, the PvP balance is a bit more complex and very few profession can do a very good healer for raids. But I believe that whatever anet do, the community will limit themselves a lot more when it come to build diversity.

What is this “balance” you speak of?

It seems a lot like gas: you hear it, but it’s unseen. And, everyone’s version smells.

~EW

Isn’t the only reason DH is 3rd best dps is because hammer autos and in raids you get huge quickness uptime? But yeah, elite specs mad OP. Waiting on nerfs/alternate lines (healing line when?).

King Cephalopod.7942:

Isn’t the only reason DH is 3rd best dps is because hammer autos and in raids you get huge quickness uptime? But yeah, elite specs mad OP. Waiting on nerfs/alternate lines (healing line when?).

Well ya Hammer auto is strong. That’s the point. GS + Bow have lower dps in long fight, but higher dps in short fight.

As for quickness, it’s not a raid thing, it’s a Chronomancer thing. As long as you have 1 half decent chronomancer, you will have perma quickness.

It’s true that Quickness boost the dps of the Guardian Hammer more than other professions, but it’s the exact same thing with Thief. Yes with zero quickness, the dps of the Guardian wouldn’t be 3rd best, but it wouldn’t bad either. Without quickness, the dps of all build will drop. The dps of the Guardian Hammer will drop a little bit more, but you also have to keep in mind that Alacrity after a lot less the Guardian Hammer dps than Elementalist for exemple.

I heard some people say that in a party without perma quickness, the dps of the guardian would be bad. It’s not true. It would probably not be 3rd best, but maybe 4-5th? It would still be competitive.

What are some of the complaints from other professions about the guardian in a PvP / WvW perspective?

I know people are suggesting that traps get nerfed further. Any comments?

I know people complain about LB5- specifically how it opens zergs up to necro wells in WvW- but I think the complaints are somewhat invalid. It’s like a bunch of little rings of warding with a reasonable cast time and cooldown, the problem stems more from stacking stability and effect culling.
Nerfing traps is probably unnecessary, especially given the state of other elite spec abilities.

As far as things that are very bad or broken go

1: Sword AA after 3 years can still be reflected (rev had that fixed within a week)

2: Sword number 3 doesn’t actually block anything despite what it says it “absorbs”. The projectiles it fires are also so slow they can be strafed.
(make it a personal 2s block so it has synergy with traits)

3: Scepter AA is still so slow it can be strafed when the target is beyond 600 range.

4: Hammer AA is so slow that most people refuse to use it unless they have to. (if they would remove a pulse from symbol of protection then lower the AA cast time to 1/2 second and remove aftercast it would be fine)

5: Hammer number 3 both the projectile and attack are so slow they can be strafed when beyond 600 range.

6: Hammer number 4 can be extremely easily avoided.

7: Hammer number 5 needs to be able to be casted while on the move.

8: Mace AA heal needs to actually scale with healing power.

9: Torch number 5 should clear less conditions on allies but also effect the guardian.

10: Staff just needs a total rework as nobody ever really wants to use it and hasn’t for years.

11: Change Longbow 5 to be a cone shaped immobilize (2 seconds) + burn (3 stacks for 3 seconds) then lower the cool down and speed up the cast time.

As for traits

1: Zeal minors should be shuffled with majors & merged into the majors in several cases.
(minors should cover things the entire class has access to, majors should be about choosing to specialize something, as is they do the opposite and there is no real choices.)

2: Wrathful Spirit is crap, should be changed to grant might stacks for 10s.
(the zeal line as a whole needs allot of work)

3: Healer’s Retribution should grant retal to all nearby allies.

4: Perfect Inscriptions should remove a condition from nearby allies & grant might (2 stacks for 10 seconds) to nearby allies then have the passive buff.
_(the changes it got the last year or so are bad)

5: Radiant Retaliation, just get rid of it and create something new.

6: Strength of the Fallen, get rid of the downed effects, change the name and give it a secondary effect.

7: Stalwart Defender, get rid of the toughness. make it taunt enemies that shield number 4 strikes.

8: Retributive Armor, redesign it to be comparable to the other GM’s.

9: Protectors Impact, get rid of the falling stuff. Make it grant precision based on vitality instead.

10: Honorable staff, make the + boon duration apply regardless of weapon with bonus if you have a staff.

11: Empowering Might. Increase the duration of might applied to 8 seconds.

12: Battle Presence, make it a base line effect so that activating resolve is a real choice.

Lastly for utility skills

1: Signet of Resolve, The cool down could stand to be lowered.

2: Bane Signet, Make it a cone knock down similar to warrior off hand mace.

3: Signet of Wrath. Scrap the + condition damage. Make it grant +25% run speed instead.

4: Signet of Courage, Reduce the time between passive heals to 3 seconds then reduce the healing done to 33% of what it is now.

Change the active to grant stability and resistance (2 stacks for 8 seconds, 8 seconds respectively) with a 3/4 second cast time and 50ish second cool down.

5: Hold the Line, bump the protection up to 6 seconds and regeneration up to 8 seconds.

6: Save Yourselves, make soldier/trooper rune and pure of voice apply before the shout effect.

7: Retreat, reduce the cool down to 30 seconds base.

8: Sanctuary & Hollowed Ground. Just redesign them.

9: Spirit weapons. They are far to easy to kill in PvP & WvW & require a huge sacrifice in sustain for use. Whats more most guardians dont want that buffed because it would still end up with guardians becoming a bad MM necro knock off.
(if they were redesigned to have the theme the weapon enhancement spells that the dervish had in GW1 but effect the party then they would be awesome)

TheBravery.9615:

What are some of the complaints from other professions about the guardian in a PvP / WvW perspective?

I know people are suggesting that traps get nerfed further. Any comments?

Thats because of the flaw in trap design.

They are invisible to enemies & don’t share boons granted with allies.

Thus they must have high damage & or CC. Otherwise they are useless.

Which in turn causes QQ from low skill players because they cannot avoid them & laughter from high skill players as they avoid/block throgh them thus negating them entirely.

If they had made them wells they would be much better for all levels of skill because they would not be for ambushes but be ranged and share boons.

TheBravery.9615:

What are some of the complaints from other professions about the guardian in a PvP / WvW perspective?

I know people are suggesting that traps get nerfed further. Any comments?

Longbow 5 has serious culling issues and it’s pretty broken in WvW.

True shot should be reevaluated in terms of activation or recharge, BUT only after gun flame (mainly the skill) and CoR (mainly this with the Cruel Repercussions+Roiling Mists+Assassin’s Presence traits).

Traps are overstated, the only time they are very strong is when someone has a whole stack of the from being in one place in a certain time. I’m surprised they do not seem to have durations, it seems like a half hour after one is placed someone can walk into one in WvW.

Infusion.7149:

TheBravery.9615:

What are some of the complaints from other professions about the guardian in a PvP / WvW perspective?

I know people are suggesting that traps get nerfed further. Any comments?

Longbow 5 has serious culling issues and it’s pretty broken in WvW.

True shot should be reevaluated in terms of activation or recharge, BUT only after gun flame (mainly the skill) and CoR (mainly this with the Cruel Repercussions+Roiling Mists+Assassin’s Presence traits).

Traps are overstated, the only time they are very strong is when someone has a whole stack of the from being in one place in a certain time. I’m surprised they do not seem to have durations, it seems like a half hour after one is placed someone can walk into one in WvW.

I made changes on gunflame on my CDI, please check it out ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SHhAr84r7L7sKK4B_hfHxBWp5cgt3fsLAh0EvlDUKnQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0 ) and let me know what you think about it.

I’m aware that cruel repercussions offer no counterplay and plan on making a CDI for revenants as well.. (well all professions in due time)

Good observation on trap duration. Thank you for sharing.

I don’t want LB5 to change. I personally feel it’s one of the few unique things Guardian really bring to tpvp in large team fights that can really set them apart from anyone else. I’d be very sore to see it turned into an Immobilize… (To he who suggested it.)

As for True Shot damage/recharge. Maybe… But if the damage is nerfed too much, standing still to cast it loses value. As it stands, reflects are heavy and we can be easily out sustained by many classes, so I’m not really sure it’s necessary anymore unless a lot of other classes get sweeping damage reductions and/or sustain reductions.

I hardly see LB as a problem and enjoy using it (more than I can say about most of our other current weapons).

I think what could help a bit with DH issues is if they reduced trap set time. Give “Test of Faith” (a note able clutch interrupt) a 1.5 second daze on trigger and changed the Trap trait to instead allow the trap boons to be shared around it as well. That way there is less constant dazing being thrown about, more team synergy and a better daze when we specifically need it.

I think that would fix a big part of the problem with the Daze spam that doesn’t totally seem necessary and is a bit out of place even.

In addition to that, though it may be a bit more controversial, reducing trap cooldowns but incurring the Cooldown when it triggers is another option, and giving traps a “Flip” skill that deactivates the trap and incurs half the cooldown if you dismantle it (range need not apply). This could benefit the Guardian at higher tiers while making them less of a problem in lower tiers where people struggle with back-to-back trap barrages when engaging someone who previously set up on a point.

PvP
Guardian really is in a good spot among the power creep of Rev, Necros and Scrappers, tbh. If you nerf anything on Guards, you’d have to look at these three classes as well and nerf them too. I don’t mind a small shave if it means other classes will receive one as well.

PvE
I don’t play pve so idk…

Saiyan.1704:

PvP
Guardian really is in a good spot among the power creep of Rev, Necros and Scrappers, tbh. If you nerf anything on Guards, you’d have to look at these three classes as well and nerf them too. I don’t mind a small shave if it means other classes will receive one as well.

That’s what I intend to do

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Z1buZnVy1JQ9JLfXwfUOPQ2b96XhXd6Yl0w1ITorX0/edit?usp=sharing

Work in progress

TheBravery.9615:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Z1buZnVy1JQ9JLfXwfUOPQ2b96XhXd6Yl0w1ITorX0/edit?usp=sharing

Work in progress

Monks focus should be included along side altruistic healing on your paper.

If a guardian is not using one of those they are basically a dead guardian as the vast majority of their sustain comes from those 2 traits.

In an ideal world guardians would not have to specialize into valor or to a lesser extent virtues like they do now.

As for critiques.

1: Fiery Wrath. Should just become a minor. Look at the rev traits and you will see that many of their + damage traits are minors while majors have more to do with choice.

2: Wrathful Spirit. Its useless as retaliation as there are many other ways to apply retaliation & this source is so short in duration nobody will ever want it.

3: Healer’s retribution. should really be merged into retribution or be made into AN AOE retaliation.

4: Right Handed strength could be moved to the grand master slot in radiant retaliations spot if it were to apply bleeds (say 4 seconds) or burns (say 1 second) on critical hits with sword attacks.
(leave the low health stuff to warriors and necros as they fit the executioner theme better)

5: Wrath of Justice is quite good as is.

6: Perfect Inscriptions, would be much better if it removed conditions & or granted protection on signet use. That would lessen the need for traps & meditations (and their traits) greatly.

7: Instead of radiant retaliation geting a patch fix why not get rid of it and replace it with a buffed right handed strength.
As for what to replace right handed strength with, why not take a look at the old searing flames trait http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Searing_Flames with a slight buff.

like the other ideas so far.

I’d honestly rather see most non-elite builds brought up to par with elite specs, rather than nerfing the Elites. Most of them have rather cool internal synergies and fun combat flow.

Does anyone want to share criticism about the current weapon skills in game?

I know orb of light is an unreliable and gimmicky attack, longbow skills need readjusting, hammer’s ring of warding needs a usability buff…

Does anyone like or use ray of judgement? (focus) or shield of judgement? (shield)

TheBravery.9615:

Does anyone want to share criticism about the current weapon skills in game?

I know orb of light is an unreliable and gimmicky attack, longbow skills need readjusting, hammer’s ring of warding needs a usability buff…

Does anyone like or use ray of judgement? (focus) or shield of judgement? (shield)

I did above.

As for ray of judgment, it could honestly just use a slight speed buff to how fast it moves.

Other then that I think I mentioned all the gripes people have with weapons.

Hm.. offtopic, but interesting/disturbing thought

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orb_of_Wrath

has anyone noticed that the damage coefficient is 0.666? Is this some kind of intentional joke from arenanet?

Gatvin.6510:

I’d honestly rather see most non-elite builds brought up to par with elite specs, rather than nerfing the Elites. Most of them have rather cool internal synergies and fun combat flow.

Please, no.

Elite specs have ruined PvP because they can do almost everything (no clear weakness, many strengths) and because many are so faceroll easy to play.

Exedore.6320:

Gatvin.6510:

I’d honestly rather see most non-elite builds brought up to par with elite specs, rather than nerfing the Elites. Most of them have rather cool internal synergies and fun combat flow.

Please, no.

Elite specs have ruined PvP because they can do almost everything (no clear weakness, many strengths) and because many are so faceroll easy to play.

That is really limited to a few 3-4 specs.

IDK if I would want all core stuff brought up to elite level but you can’t deny that a fair number of core trait lines (especially on guardian) have major problems.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Z1buZnVy1JQ9JLfXwfUOPQ2b96XhXd6Yl0w1ITorX0/edit?usp=sharing

Still work in progress, but foundation of traits are completed. Let me know what you guys think.

Erm, I STRONGLY do not support removal of Smiter’s Boon for a WVW fall trait… Strongly. :S

ronpierce.2760:

Erm, I STRONGLY do not support removal of Smiter’s Boon for a WVW fall trait… Strongly. :S

It got merged into healer’s retribution in radiance

TheBravery.9615:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Z1buZnVy1JQ9JLfXwfUOPQ2b96XhXd6Yl0w1ITorX0/edit?usp=sharing

Still work in progress, but foundation of traits are completed. Let me know what you guys think.

Few critiques

1: Fiery wrath should be a minor. Even with the changes the only time I cannot see myself or most ppl using it is if they want to camp the scepter which very few ppl like using now.

2: Zealot’s Speed. Feels like it should be in the honor line.

3: Wrathful Spirit. The added regeneration is nice but regeneration is basically given out like candy these days.

4: Expeditious Spirit. Without a true overhaul of spirit weapons I doubt how much good overhauling their traits will really do.

5: Pure of Heart is really fine as is, merging it with shattered AEGIS seems weird as zeal is supposed to be the offensive line. (Perhaps shattered AEGIS could have a secondary offensive effect)

6: Symbolic Avenger, having a ring of warding on this could become very OP if using a hammer or mace.
(If it caused symbols to cripple with each pulse it would help to do the desired effect but in a balanced way.)

7: Healer’s retribution. Instead of doing smite condition perhaps it could grant AOE Retaliation when you use a heal

8: Right Handed Strength. The low health threshold feels like a warrior and necro thing, guardians aren’t executioners. (if it did say 4 seconds of bleeding on critical hits then it would be quite nice)

9: Wrath of justice is actually quite nice and helps guardians get & stay in close when needed.

10: Perfect Inscriptions, this trait was nice a couple of years ago when it was several different traits. (if it granted 3 stacks of AOE might for 10 seconds and cleansed a condition on signet use it would be quite nice)

11: Radiant Resistance, would be much better if it was brought back as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Searing_Flames with a twist, like perhaps an AOE flame blast & CD based per target.

12: Protectors Impact. , Smiters boon is actually nice in this spot, we should also be focusing on getting rid of fall traits as they are nearly never used.

13: Strength of the Fallen, Again should be focusing on getting rid of when downed traits.

14: AEGIS master, seems nice but I doubt anyone will ever want to use it vs other choices. (What we really need is a 3rd sustain trait to compete with the other 2. Perhaps one that heals on signet use or consecration use)

15: Invigorating Mace, Mace already has allot of regeneration. The proc would effectively not do anything.

16: Resonating Symbols, would effectively give guardians & nearby allies permanent stability with a hammer or mace thus being very OP.

17: Empowering Might is kinda meh, The thing it really needs is a longer might duration not replacement.

18: Resolve of the Abandoned, This trait would only ever really be good for solo play.
(pure of voice is also very nice where it’s currently at in honor)

19: Unscathed Contender. Really this trait just needed to be changed so that it granted a damage boost when your above a set health %.

TheBravery.9615:

ronpierce.2760:

Erm, I STRONGLY do not support removal of Smiter’s Boon for a WVW fall trait… Strongly. :S

It got merged into healer’s retribution in radiance

Still no, smiter’s boon is definitely fine in the valor line. Perhaps consider switching it for a master-tier trait in Valor (forcing guards to choose between team utility, and personal benefit), but otherwise it’s fine where it is.

Also, I want to say thank you for taking the time to make this. You have both good and bad ideas here, but I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said by Ragnar above.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

TheBravery.9615:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Z1buZnVy1JQ9JLfXwfUOPQ2b96XhXd6Yl0w1ITorX0/edit?usp=sharing

Still work in progress, but foundation of traits are completed. Let me know what you guys think.

Few critiques

1: Fiery wrath should be a minor. Even with the changes the only time I cannot see myself or most ppl using it is if they want to camp the scepter which very few ppl like using now.
I thought fiery wrath was in a good place and didn’t need to become baselined, but I could theoretically swap it with the new zealot’s speed and edit the cooldowns and values. What do you think?

2: Zealot’s Speed. Feels like it should be in the honor line.
I could swap it with vigorous precision. In fact, I like that idea, due to the placement of writ of persistence.

3: Wrathful Spirit. The added regeneration is nice but regeneration is basically given out like candy these days.
I plan on balancing all professions so that won’t be the case anymore.

4: Expeditious Spirit. Without a true overhaul of spirit weapons I doubt how much good overhauling their traits will really do.
I did do a rework, check out the healing/utility skills tab on the spreadsheet. The general idea is there, i just got to settle on figures (eg. cooldown etc)

5: Pure of Heart is really fine as is, merging it with shattered AEGIS seems weird as zeal is supposed to be the offensive line. (Perhaps shattered AEGIS could have a secondary offensive effect)
I don’t want to situate all of the guardian’s sustain traits into 1 or two specializations, so I decided to spread them around. That’s one of the reasons why i did that. (also it’s difficult to balance traits when they’re similar in nature.. e.g. there’s two traits that increase damage, it’s difficult to make a distinction and often times, players choose one option and never consider the other option._

6: Symbolic Avenger, having a ring of warding on this could become very OP if using a hammer or mace.
(If it caused symbols to cripple with each pulse it would help to do the desired effect but in a balanced way.)
Good idea. Changed.

7: Healer’s retribution. Instead of doing smite condition perhaps it could grant AOE Retaliation when you use a heal
Thank you for your comment about this, I decided to put smiter’s boon back into valor. I want to reduce the amount of retaliation going around the game (as well as the boon sharing.. I’m going to reduce a lot of boon sharing in the game because it’s become ridiculous as of late. I would go as far as to call it cancerous) because there’s little counterplay against retaliation.

8: Right Handed Strength. The low health threshold feels like a warrior and necro thing, guardians aren’t executioners. (if it did say 4 seconds of bleeding on critical hits then it would be quite nice)
This is debatable.

9: Wrath of justice is actually quite nice and helps guardians get & stay in close when needed.

10: Perfect Inscriptions, this trait was nice a couple of years ago when it was several different traits. (if it granted 3 stacks of AOE might for 10 seconds and cleansed a condition on signet use it would be quite nice)

11: Radiant Resistance, would be much better if it was brought back as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Searing_Flames with a twist, like perhaps an AOE flame blast & CD based per target.
I’ll think about this

12: Protectors Impact. , Smiters boon is actually nice in this spot, we should also be focusing on getting rid of fall traits as they are nearly never used.
Moved smiter’s boon back in, moved protector’s impact into radiance. I’m trying to follow the game’s design model, and unfortunately, every profession needs a falling damage trait. Not everyone has heart of thorns. The least I could do is make it usable in WvW.

13: Strength of the Fallen, Again should be focusing on getting rid of when downed traits.
I’ll consider this, but what do you have in mind?

14: AEGIS master, seems nice but I doubt anyone will ever want to use it vs other choices. (What we really need is a 3rd sustain trait to compete with the other 2. Perhaps one that heals on signet use or consecration use)
Same reasoning as I explained in #5, pure of voice. It’s diffcult to balance traits that are similar in nature and make it so each trait have equal consideration. The best way for me to approach this problem is by making a completely different trait with different emphasis- offense.

15: Invigorating Mace, Mace already has allot of regeneration. The proc would effectively not do anything.
What do you suggest

16: Resonating Symbols, would effectively give guardians & nearby allies permanent stability with a hammer or mace thus being very OP.
I could reduce the duration or change the boon. What do you think?

17: Empowering Might is kinda meh, The thing it really needs is a longer might duration not replacement.
I decided to scrap it because yeah, it is kinda meh. Warrior have a similar trait and I don’t want to blur the identities of either profession.

18: Resolve of the Abandoned, This trait would only ever really be good for solo play.
(pure of voice is also very nice where it’s currently at in honor)

19: Unscathed Contender. Really this trait just needed to be changed so that it granted a damage boost when your above a set health %.
I’ll think about this

My replies are in bold. I’m in bit of a rush so I didn’t say much, but thank you for your analysis. I’ll be back later this week to make more changes.

You’re probably going to have to keep reminding people that you plan to try a lot of tweaking with all the classes given the salt people are feeling here. I like a lot of these changes, but specific trait feedback:

Wrathful Spirit- zeal is a primarily offensive line, or turns offense into defense (zealous blade), so having a support boon proc more defensive boons here feels a little weird

Glacial Heart- I still feel that since hammer is cc oriented it might fit better somewhere else, but ultimately this is probably a good place for it

Ferverous Precision- Like it, but uncertain about flavor (condi) reasoning given the burning of symbolic power (GM minor)

Shattered aegis- interesting take, but leaves a healing hole in honor

Symbolic avenger- I’m surprised you managed to do a shuffle on writ of persistence and symbolic avenger that I think could work. I like it.

Right-Hand Strength/Retribution- The thing to know about these is that Retribution still has the powerful blades trait rolled in. Makes Sword/Spear do more damage, tooltip just doesn’t display. I’m not sure I can say what the sword identity should be, but I’d think crits/mobility. Like warrior sword it has mobility on 2, and damages on 3. Warrior does bleeds, but since the final sword hit does (at least would do if not so obnoxious) 3 hits even without the virtues traits you’ll proc justice passive every auto chain, making it automatically a possible condi weapon. Main issues are how mace works better with symbolic avenger and S auto3/3 have no cleave.

Stalwart Defender- You said it yourself, toughness gain isn’t a great reason. Plopping more on block doesn’t seem much more appealing. If it instead offered the flat +240 toughness and took the +% ferocity based on toughness it might be better. Alternatively, just replacing all that with a roll-in of strength in numbers might be better (only applies when wielding a shield perhaps?) The thing is, while valor may be about personal survivability, it’s also about armor. That’s why shield (a group support weapon) ended up in the tree.

Invigorating mace- don’t think it needs regen on hit since mace symbol already gives regen. The condi removal chance on hit alone is probably enough, given you have a decent auto chain and the aoe symbol.

Resolve of the abandoned- Not sure I understand how this is meant to feel. It’s a very situational trait (2+ enemies and no allies in a 600 radius to proc) and simply causes more damage. But it’s also in the middle of the Honor line, which is based on group support/healing. So what this does is leave the healing line with non-healing master traits: group toughness, boon duration while wielding a staff, and solo damage. If not for Signet of Judgement I might suggest putting it in the valor line and adding damage reduction to roll shield into strength in numbers here. Not sure what line it would work best in, but I think honor isn’kitten

Force of Will- this actually made the trait worse. Before it scaled of vit but also gave vit, so the base outgoing healing increase turned into 13%+ at lvl 80 minimum (1300 vit). If you run ascended magi’s armor/weap you can get to upwards of 20%. Not including how guard can’t compete with other classes for healing right now (druid, tempest, ventari rev), the problems are: it competes with Pure of Voice (condi clear which becomes sustain with AH) and Writ of Persistence (250 hps baseline at your change), and it scales with vitality. It’s a weird compromise, it gives more vitality for a little beef, and increases outgoing healing.
But if you wanted more healing, you’d take the symbol trait with high healing power gear, unless you can squeeze enough healing per second off non-symbol healing that the 13-20% difference is greater than the healing per second of the symbol trait. With your WoP, at 1200 healing power you get 400 healing per second from symbols. In order for FoW to compete you’d need 4000 healing per second from other sources at 1200. That doesn’t even factor for the damage done by longer symbols, and the additional boon application (mace regen, hammer prot).
If you wanted more beef (i.e. wvw) you’d just run soldier’s and take shouts. In order to make the trait work optimally you’d want both healing power and vitality, so you’ve got almost no proper trinket choices and your armor choices are pretty much shaman’s, nomad’s, minstrel’s, and magi’s. I can only think of two tweaks, leaning to either healing or beefing.
I don’t want to flat-out suggest taking your version and raising the healing to 20%, but it might be better if this overshadows the WoP for healing builds. WoP would still probably be taken to synergize with Symbolic Avenger (as it is now). Alternatively something could be done to make FoW a true beefcake GM, like gaining vitality based on healing power with only the 10% outgoing modifier. Ideally the trait would make a nice hybrid ground for personal survivability feeding group support, but I’m not sure how this would best be done.

Vigorous Virtues- Not sure why you feel this way, all my research of retaliation guards I kept finding the answer that they’re not useful because tiny health pool. Retal is also kinda a thing of ours, considering you get loads of it off light fields and every 3rd ability we have.

Absolute Resolution- I particularly like this, the GM now mirrors that of VoC in that it both improves the passive and provides something extra on active.

Indomitable Courage- could use some sort of passive effect as well to better mirror AR and PW. I don’t want to suggest applying the passive aegis to allies, but it seems like a simple solution.

Edit-accidental underlining

1: Agree on swapping them. Generally people are most often going to take the highest damage traits available, so having +damage traits as minors frees up the majors for choice.

3: While regeneration is given out like candy it does play a large roll on how some classes work. If you plan on changing that then all I can say is good luck.

5: Guardian sustain traits are mainly located in valor, honor & virtues because those are the lines that have to do with healing, removing conditions & helpful utility effects.
The other lines have to do with pure damage, critical strikes & condition damage.

13: The condition removal on strength of the fallen is alright but the boost to downed state is where it becomes meh. Downed states are times when you should pretty much be dead unless you have an ally to help you and if you playing well should not be happening all that often.
Perhaps it could do something when you get downed. Or grant you + effects when nearby a downed ally, or allies effects when your downed.

14: As I said above the sustain traits are in valor, honor and virtues because that’s what those lines are about. Valor already boosts meditations & has altruistic healing. Having it give the added choice of those or sustain from signet/consecration use would vary up PvP quite a bit.

15: Invigorating Mace, tough to say what would be balanced but we do know more regeneration wouldn’t really be of use. Protection, AEGIS, or weakness on proc could all work depending how they are balanced.

16: Even with duration reduced to 1 second you would still be able to keep up a stack of stability permanently on yourself and nearby allies.
Personally I’d say move empowering might here, guardian could never put up as many might stacks as a warrior but at least they would be able to help some.

As for the virtues and weapon skills.

1: Wings of Resolve, DH is currently extremely reliant on the healing this does & the mobility it gives. Reducing that & increasing the cool down would be very bad for them. This is especially true given the amount of CC out there that can interrupt this and put it on a full cool down.

2: Focus skills are actually quite nice as is, the only gripe I’ve ever heard is that ray of judgment is slow.

3: Shield is nice as is and doesn’t really need any changes. (a Channeled AOE block would also be a bit OP)

4: The only complaint that I have ever heard about the torch is that the number 5 doesn’t do anything for the guardian. otherwise its fine.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with for sword scepter, hammer & staff.

Staff:
- The staff’s auto-attack should be something actually supportive instead of a farming tool. The Trident’s auto is a good example of what it should be (properly tuned of course).
- Orb of Light could use a better targeting method (maybe something like Bow #3 without it hugging the ground), and better healing scaling.
- Symbol of Swiftness should provide a short burst of superspeed instead of swiftness since a stacking movement speed buff on a stationary AoE makes no sense.
- Empower should have a range increase. Essentially stunning yourself in close range is a very bad idea, and using it in mid range only to have an ally move out is equally as frustrating.

Mace:
- Could be moved towards more of a tank/bunker weapon rather than going half dps, half bunker, or rather than pretending to be a support weapon when it absolutely isn’t.

Torch:
- Cleansing Flame having the range it does makes no sense. For one thing, the ability is clearly supposed to be supportive, and having to use something like that while hugging an ally and eating AoEs is stupid as all hell. The target limit being so low also gets in the way of it cleansing allies properly, which is its only use.

Utilities:
- Spirit weapons need serious tuning.
- Merciful Intervention needs proper tuning, namely a cooldown decrease.
- Signet of Mercy’s passive should be changed from healing power to % outgoing healing. Its active should also have some sort of extra benefit considering it has a longer cast time than other revives.
- Hallowed Ground should provide something like resistance or maybe pulse aegis at certain intervals. Regardless of what is done with it, it competes with (and loses to) Stand Your Ground too much.
- Litany of Wrath should be tuned properly.
- Signet of Resolve could be moved towards more of an anti-condition heal.
- Bring back tom- I mean, make Signet of Courage less of a pain to use properly. A four second cast time on a full heal was only justified when it was part of Tome of Courage. Would be nice if the passive effect targeted low health allies as well.

Traits:
Zeal:
- Wrathful spirit needs something more.
- Zealous Scepter shouldn’t be in Zeal and it should provide a cooldown decrease to scepter skills. The scepter is a symbol-less weapon, and the Zeal trait line focuses on symbols. Alternatively, Smite could become a symbol.

Radiance:
- Healer’s Retribution is garbage.
- Perfect Inscriptions’ needs something more. The light aura thing doesn’t really make much sense on it.
- Radiant Retaliation needs to be tuned properly, but if retaliation is considered bad design, they could change it to something like “Retaliation pulses damage around you instead of its normal functionality. Scales with condition damage and power”.

Valor:
- Stalwart Defender should be merged with Strength in Numbers or Communal Defense or vice versa, and Glacial Heart should be moved here. These are basically three AoE defense traits competing with each other on the same slot. Alternatively, one of these could be buffed up and swapped with retributive armor.

Honor:
- Protector’s Impact is a joke trait.
- Empowering Might’s might duration is pathetic. Its AoE radius is also pretty terrible.
- Honourable Staff’s boon duration should display properly.
- Force of Will should not be competing with Pure of Voice. Especially now that Healing Breeze is a shout for some reason. They could merge Force of Will or Pure of Voice with Battle Presence I suppose.

Virtues:
- Battle Presence is complete trash. It was already mediocre before it got nerfed.

Base Virtues:
- Should have their 1200 range back.

Hm, thanks for the comments but just a fair warning

I’m going to be making a lot of changes on this document, and i may or may not keep track of all the changes and post here.

Don’t want to burn you guys out from re-reading this over and over again when I make an update, so probably hold off on the suggestions/criticism until I “reach beta”

Just sharing the link so people could see some ideas and maybe build upon them later.

So basically ur solution of equalizing DH to base guard is to nerf dragon hunter? I’m sorry but that is just Terribad

Zantmar.5406:

So basically ur solution of equalizing DH to base guard is to nerf dragon hunter? I’m sorry but that is just Terribad

What was terribad was Anet’s decision to power creep the hell out of the Elite Spec. Either we power creep the hell out of base profession to rebalance them or we nerf the elite spec. Ideally, elite spec should have been nerfed become their introduction, but it wasn’t the case.

Both solution are bad because buffing the base profession will add even more power creep and nerfing the elite spec will probably be meet with outrage by the community. I think that the best solution would be a little bit of both. Buffing a bit of base profession and nerfing elite spec.

I already talked about it, but I really think that the balance for wing of resolve vs virtue of resolve and Purification vs every other heal should be more aggressive.

Virtue of Resolve passive = 84hp/sec
Virtue of Resolve active = 32.5hp/sec

Wing of Resolve passive = 84hp/sec
Wing of Resolve active = 129hp/sec

I would rebalance it by giving each Resolve their own identity. If Wing of resolve active if his strength, then Virtue of Resolve passive should be his strength.

Buffing the Virtue of Resolve passive from 84hp/sec to about 129hp/sec, but
also buffing the Virtue active to 84hp/sec. I would push the CD to 60sec and it would heal for about 5000hp.

The trait absolute resolution would push that difference even more. On DH, it would have a group condi removal each 30sec, but won’t get much use out of the passive buff since you will want to use your active as much as possible. While Vanilla with that trait would get the most healing out of the virtues since with the buff the passive would now be of 161hp/sec, but with a 60sec cooldown and less healing, the active part of the trait won’t be of much use.

Giving identity is great save
For example vitrue of resolve could grant resistance once in a while and party wide resistance on active
Justice could give it quickness on active
And courage could cause taunt and damage reduction on active and faster passive refresh
U don’t simply have to nerf something that Is good to be in line with garbage

That was 3 simple addition that just made base vitrues providing support, utility, damage. Also very much fits base guard’s theme.

Edit: its not about power creep, u like guard? Fine, people likes DH too, u want viable guard? Find ways to improve it in ways that dosnt hurt DH, frankly ur little document putting wings of resolve on 45sec cd?wow are you out of your mind?

Zantmar.5406:

Giving identity is great save
For example vitrue of resolve could give resistance
Justice could give it quickness
And courage could cause taunt and damage reduction
U don’t simply have to nerf something that Is good to be in line with garbage

I don’t know if you talked about my post, but I didn’t nerfed anything, I only buffed vanilla resolve.

It’s on ops docutment on wings of resolve, it’s not about u it’s the OP’ docutment, obviously he didn’t play enough pvp, or hates DH secretly and wants to nerf everything DH stands for with making base guard viable as an execuse
And justice spear’s unblockable lets us deal with revs and their little bubble, it rewards u when u can disable people’ sustain if u time it right, should not be removed

Don’t worry, I have no intent to critique-bomb with real frequency.
Thaddeus: I think it would be better to bite the bullet and just try to beat down the power creep, even if unpopular. Might cause a momentary drop, but if done right over time it would make things better.
Zantmar: The OP said several times he intends to do this for every class, and that includes a lot of nerfs to all other elite specs as well.

Zantmar.5406:

It’s on ops docutment on wings of resolve, it’s not about u it’s the OP’ docutment, obviously he didn’t play enough pvp, or hates DH secretly and wants to nerf everything DH stands for with making base guard viable as an execuse
And justice spear’s unblockable lets us deal with revs and their little bubble, it rewards u when u can disable people’ sustain if u time it right, should not be removed

Let’s not assume things.

You’re welcome to “feel otherwise”, but I don’t intend to nerf or buff the profession (or any profession that I’m doing balance suggestions on). I’m bringing traits and skills in line of one another so all traits and weapons will see equal use with all things considered.

I just had some angry person vandalize the spreadsheet with no constructive commentary, and opted to just throw personal insults at me (my personal favorite: ball sucking kitten monkey). Oh boy, I imagine the amount of flak I’ll get when I eventually get to engineer. On that note, consider the engineer along with your argument that I shouldn’t realign the elite skills back into reality. Would you be OK with me keeping engineers strong as they are now and buffing everything else in power creep?

Balance is not something that’s easily accomplished and not everyone will agree on any suggestion proposal. Despite this, you’re welcome to collaborate with us and provide constructive feedback so I could share your perspective.

TheBravery.9615:

Zantmar.5406:

It’s on ops docutment on wings of resolve, it’s not about u it’s the OP’ docutment, obviously he didn’t play enough pvp, or hates DH secretly and wants to nerf everything DH stands for with making base guard viable as an execuse
And justice spear’s unblockable lets us deal with revs and their little bubble, it rewards u when u can disable people’ sustain if u time it right, should not be removed

Let’s not assume things.

You’re welcome to “feel otherwise”, but I don’t intend to nerf or buff the profession (or any profession that I’m doing balance suggestions on). I’m bringing traits and skills in line of one another so all traits and weapons will see equal use with all things considered.

I just had some angry person vandalize the spreadsheet with no constructive commentary, and opted to just throw personal insults at me (my personal favorite: ball sucking kitten monkey). Oh boy, I imagine the amount of flak I’ll get when I eventually get to engineer. On that note, consider the engineer along with your argument that I shouldn’t realign the elite skills back into reality. Would you be OK with me keeping engineers strong as they are now and buffing everything else in power creep?

Balance is not something that’s easily accomplished and not everyone will agree on any suggestion proposal. Despite this, you’re welcome to collaborate with us and provide constructive feedback so I could share your perspective.

Only major things I have to say, though I’ll check back later, I haven’t gotten to “dig deep” yet.

But I really think the changes hurt Valor. For one, Smiter’s boon should just stay in valor, simply because it goes with the Meditation trait, acts as a decent source of condition removal, and moving it out of that tree hurts meditation builds. Generally speaking, I don’t like Utility specializations to be spread out over multiple trees. It limits build usage and pseudo “forces” trees to be taken together, much like old Minion Master traits which were all over the place. The traits just belong together. (I haven’t checked yet if this has changed, but the general philosophy is something I feel strongly about.)

Secondly, Valor is now a “downed” trait, traits that are generally very unfun to take, then a WvW trait that most people don’t want due to it only really being sort of useful in one game mode. And lastly, a weapon specific trait. For PvP, this makes the minor majors feel really bad for choice, something Honor suffers from a bit. Which isn’t a good feeling.

ronpierce.2760:

TheBravery.9615:

Zantmar.5406:

It’s on ops docutment on wings of resolve, it’s not about u it’s the OP’ docutment, obviously he didn’t play enough pvp, or hates DH secretly and wants to nerf everything DH stands for with making base guard viable as an execuse
And justice spear’s unblockable lets us deal with revs and their little bubble, it rewards u when u can disable people’ sustain if u time it right, should not be removed

Let’s not assume things.

You’re welcome to “feel otherwise”, but I don’t intend to nerf or buff the profession (or any profession that I’m doing balance suggestions on). I’m bringing traits and skills in line of one another so all traits and weapons will see equal use with all things considered.

I just had some angry person vandalize the spreadsheet with no constructive commentary, and opted to just throw personal insults at me (my personal favorite: ball sucking kitten monkey). Oh boy, I imagine the amount of flak I’ll get when I eventually get to engineer. On that note, consider the engineer along with your argument that I shouldn’t realign the elite skills back into reality. Would you be OK with me keeping engineers strong as they are now and buffing everything else in power creep?

Balance is not something that’s easily accomplished and not everyone will agree on any suggestion proposal. Despite this, you’re welcome to collaborate with us and provide constructive feedback so I could share your perspective.

Only major things I have to say, though I’ll check back later, I haven’t gotten to “dig deep” yet.

But I really think the changes hurt Valor. For one, Smiter’s boon should just stay in valor, simply because it goes with the Meditation trait, acts as a decent source of condition removal, and moving it out of that tree hurts meditation builds. Generally speaking, I don’t like Utility specializations to be spread out over multiple trees. It limits build usage and pseudo “forces” trees to be taken together, much like old Minion Master traits which were all over the place. The traits just belong together. (I haven’t checked yet if this has changed, but the general philosophy is something I feel strongly about.)

Secondly, Valor is now a “downed” trait, traits that are generally very unfun to take, then a WvW trait that most people don’t want due to it only really being sort of useful in one game mode. And lastly, a weapon specific trait. For PvP, this makes the minor majors feel really bad for choice, something Honor suffers from a bit. Which isn’t a good feeling.

If you’re just reading through this conversation, I’ve already addressed the problems you pointed out, and yeah check back later when I’m “finished” with the “alpha” (whatever that means), There’s a ton of changes being made over time and it’d be a waste of energy to keep reading it before it’s finished.

TheBravery.9615:

ronpierce.2760:

TheBravery.9615:

Zantmar.5406:

It’s on ops docutment on wings of resolve, it’s not about u it’s the OP’ docutment, obviously he didn’t play enough pvp, or hates DH secretly and wants to nerf everything DH stands for with making base guard viable as an execuse
And justice spear’s unblockable lets us deal with revs and their little bubble, it rewards u when u can disable people’ sustain if u time it right, should not be removed

Let’s not assume things.

You’re welcome to “feel otherwise”, but I don’t intend to nerf or buff the profession (or any profession that I’m doing balance suggestions on). I’m bringing traits and skills in line of one another so all traits and weapons will see equal use with all things considered.

I just had some angry person vandalize the spreadsheet with no constructive commentary, and opted to just throw personal insults at me (my personal favorite: ball sucking kitten monkey). Oh boy, I imagine the amount of flak I’ll get when I eventually get to engineer. On that note, consider the engineer along with your argument that I shouldn’t realign the elite skills back into reality. Would you be OK with me keeping engineers strong as they are now and buffing everything else in power creep?

Balance is not something that’s easily accomplished and not everyone will agree on any suggestion proposal. Despite this, you’re welcome to collaborate with us and provide constructive feedback so I could share your perspective.

Only major things I have to say, though I’ll check back later, I haven’t gotten to “dig deep” yet.

But I really think the changes hurt Valor. For one, Smiter’s boon should just stay in valor, simply because it goes with the Meditation trait, acts as a decent source of condition removal, and moving it out of that tree hurts meditation builds. Generally speaking, I don’t like Utility specializations to be spread out over multiple trees. It limits build usage and pseudo “forces” trees to be taken together, much like old Minion Master traits which were all over the place. The traits just belong together. (I haven’t checked yet if this has changed, but the general philosophy is something I feel strongly about.)

Secondly, Valor is now a “downed” trait, traits that are generally very unfun to take, then a WvW trait that most people don’t want due to it only really being sort of useful in one game mode. And lastly, a weapon specific trait. For PvP, this makes the minor majors feel really bad for choice, something Honor suffers from a bit. Which isn’t a good feeling.

If you’re just reading through this conversation, I’ve already addressed the problems you pointed out, and yeah check back later when I’m “finished” with the “alpha” (whatever that means), There’s a ton of changes being made over time and it’d be a waste of energy to keep reading it before it’s finished.

Yeah, k can’t read it just yet, I just wanted to throw that out as you did iterations just to get the philosophies out there. d(‘-’d)

Keep it up.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Thaddeus: I think it would be better to bite the bullet and just try to beat down the power creep, even if unpopular. Might cause a momentary drop, but if done right over time it would make things better.

Maybe. But let’s be honest. Anet don’t seem to give a crap about the problem that power creep bring since they in the last 6-8months, they gave us 2 of the biggest power creep update ever in this game (the specialisation update and HoT).

So they might care about balancing Vanilla vs Elite Spec, but they sure don’t seem to care about reversing or limiting the power creep. Which is sad when you think about it. I can understand the average player not understand what huge problem power creep can bring to a game. I can understand a designer of a game like WoW or Borderland who use power creep to their advantage as one of their core concept. But I just don’t understand how the designer of GW2 can include so much of it in such a small period of time.

I would much rather that they get back to pre specialisation patch or even pre-ascended level of power, but it won’t gonna happen. Just too much work and people will scream murder and quit the game. Just take a look at dungeon. They actually give you better reward now than they used too. You get more gold per hour in dungeon now than before HoT, but the reality don’t matter here. People just keep the nerf in mind and that’s all what’s important.

That’s why I say, that Anet can’t just nerf everything they did in the last 6-8months, even if it would be the best choice. But what they can do is to nerf a little the Elite spec and buff the vanilla spec.

Now does Anet really want to combat elite spec imbalance or power creep? Maybe for the elite spec imbalance, but I’m pretty sure they don’t give a crap about power creep, which is really sad.