Guild Wars 2

Ganzo.5079:

Alarox.4590:

Chill/cripple/swiftness itself added does not make the Guardian OP. In fact, it balances them as currently there are few options for an offensive melee Guardian.

However, in conjunction with the current meta bunker builds, a trait like this would surely be overpowered. But, I think a few more inherent cripples/chills/swiftness on utility or weapon skills would not make bunker Guardians overpowered.

(Although, most weapon skills are balanced without cripple/chill, so it would have to be very carefully done, and probably best left to utility skills and traits).

TL;DR: More chills/cripples/swiftness is fine to give all Guardians, as long as its balanced. This trait specifically, would be OP with the current bunker builds, which is why it needs to be a Grandmaster.

Thats why i think that Simbols\consecrations must be touched i bit to provide some sort of snaring.
And im pointing Simbols and consecrations just to distinguish guardian from the other main melee classes.

Warriors and thief have enough tools to reach\snare the enemy, their combat stile is very mobile.

Guardian arent mobile, so they have to keep the enemy on the same area for much time as possible, and effect like simbols and consecration can help for this(if tweaked).
But i have to say that i dont care if they dont use simbols for snare, but i know that our class need them for every weapon (except hammer… maybe)

I was thinking more area control as well, rather than the single target that Warriors/Thieves use. Like making Purging Flames cripple/chill or making Spirit Weapon commands cripple/chill.

Regarding weapon skills… there’s a line between balanced and overpowered that can easily be crossed for a lot of weapon skills if they received cripple/chill.

Alarox.4590:

I was thinking more area control as well, rather than the single target that Warriors/Thieves use. Like making Purging Flames cripple/chill or making Spirit Weapon commands cripple/chill.

Regarding weapon skills… there’s a line between balanced and overpowered that can easily be crossed for a lot of weapon skills if they received cripple/chill.

to be honest i think that chill have no reason to be applyed by a guardian. Cripple is strong but remember that is a -50% movement speed that is really good for single target abilities, or single applications.
I made some proposition just on this forum some week ago because to keep a good area control, without be OP, we need something different, a condition that slow the enemy for a 25\30% so it can be keeped up for a “lot” of time.

*I’m not going to reply to anything but the OP

I love the idea and I read all of your points, but there’s this part of me that would still never grab it because I feel all that traited condition duration is absolutely worthless because of the way burn works. I know that’s kind of a dodgy point and perhaps irrelevant to conversation — but a fantastic trait like that would still not be worth the points imo.

^ Yeah, its all about what you’re willing to sacrifice and what you want to play as. I figure most current Guardians won’t want it, as 30 Valor is too appealing, but its still another option (which you can never have too much of).

Alarox.4590:

^ Yeah, its all about what you’re willing to sacrifice and what you want to play as. I figure most current Guardians won’t want it, as 30 Valor is too appealing, but its still another option (which you can never have too much of).

Well people dont like to sacrice valor 30 just because our class need a costant flow of heal with our low healthpool(and the extra toughness help too lol). Grant some kind (not all the same) of extra healing mechaning through the other traitline can help to use builds that dont need the valor line, but its better to discuss this on a future thread lol, for now a remain strictly tied to my 30 points on valor lol.

@Alarox – We sure do want the same thing, buddy! I think your little list there is quite concise.

Just to throw some more of my thoughts into the discussion, if they miraculously decide to give us a snare on weapon skills, I don’t think chill would be appropriate really. As it has the additional effect of slowing down skill recharge (wait, does that mean Thief’s weapon skills are immune to that?) I imagine for balance purposes, the duration would be shorter.
I don’t know about you but I would rather just a simple cripple with a balanced duration over a short duration chill as, while making it more difficult for our foe is good and all, I’m not really in it for the additional effects of chill, even though chill slows them even more. I just want to be able to keep them in melee longer than we can now.

Since I’m more on the side of items 3 and 5 (sic) on Alarox’s list and since we’re going into a little more detail, here are the weapons I think would be viable candidates for snares and perhaps which type:

Sword – Cripple, definitely.
Scepter – Perhaps a cripple somewhere, maybe after the immobilise as an additional effect? Even better, fix Orb of Wrath and Smite and put a cripple on there somewhere.
Greatsword – Cripple, before you say “But the pull!”, Warrior greatsword.
Staff – The wards are ok when they work, useless when they don’t. I think reliable wards would be better than a cripple on this one, although a cripple on Symbol of Swiftness would not only make the skill more useful but would stay in line with the symbol’s theme and allow for strategic cripple and/or heal (if traited) placements to assist allies.
Hammer – As above with wards, I don’t think it needs a cripple really, the immobilise is ok enough, although the misses with it can be frustrating…
Mace – I like mace in terms of functionality but its control effectiveness is somewhere between zip and zilch. Maybe a stun or even a knockdown? Works with the other maces, otherwise, mace is a good candidate for any symbol based snare traits at the very least. I remember in beta, Protector’s Strike used to be an AoE knockback, not quite consistent with mace’s playstyle but some kind of knockdown or stun on a skill would fill the gap nicely.

Silver.8023:

Sword – Cripple, definitely.

Agree!

Scepter – Perhaps a cripple somewhere, maybe after the immobilise as an additional effect? Even better, fix Orb of Wrath and Smite and put a cripple on there somewhere.

i dont know, if smite become a simbol, and the orb fixed, for scepter is ok without a crippling.

Greatsword – Cripple, before you say “But the pull!”, Warrior greatsword.

leap of faith or SOW, definitely need a snare! agree.

Staff – The wards are ok when they work, useless when they don’t. I think reliable wards would be better than a cripple on this one, although a cripple on Symbol of Swiftness would not only make the skill more useful but would stay in line with the symbol’s theme and allow for strategic cripple and/or heal (if traited) placements to assist allies.

agree.

Hammer – As above with wards, I don’t think it needs a cripple really, the immobilise is ok enough, although the misses with it can be frustrating…

hammer is really the only ok weapon for guardians. decent damage, good mobility, chains, knockback(why not knockdown? we need the target NEAR US) and ROW

Mace – I like mace in terms of functionality but its control effectiveness is somewhere between zip and zilch. Maybe a stun or even a knockdown? Works with the other maces, otherwise, mace is a good candidate for any symbol based snare traits at the very least. I remember in beta, Protector’s Strike used to be an AoE knockback, not quite consistent with mace’s playstyle but some kind of knockdown or stun on a skill would fill the gap nicely.

agree. i was thinking something related to a stun for the ones that trigger the effect of protector strike.

Ganzo.5079:

i dont know, if smite become a simbol, and the orb fixed, for scepter is ok without a crippling.

That’s true, if Orb of Wrath were a reliable ranged skill and Smite a symbol, the immobilise on Chains of Light would be enough.

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

Edit: just had another idea. Add a trait to make it so that every time you burn your foe you have a chance to chill your enemy. This would work great with our semi weak virtue of justice traits, allow chill to effect all weapons, and maybe make it so activating
Virtue of justice also always applies a chill. Call it something like “Frozen Fire” or “Hot Ice”

Bakitten291:

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

the problems with chill is that he add too much things. -66% movement speed and +66% on skill CD… its really too much, and thats why glacial hearts is so situational as trait (maybe too much situational)

Ganzo.5079:

Bakitten291:

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

the problems with chill is that he add too much things. -66% movement speed and +66% on skill CD… its really too much, and thats why glacial hearts its so situational as trait (maybe too much situational)

Thats why it would all be short duration. Im not asking for perm chills. On symbol pulse i would want only like .5 seconds. If set on symbol use it would only be 2 seconds. Even with 100% added chill thats only 1 second per pulse or 4 seconds per use. But you also need to sacrifice some or all your rune slots, your food, and possibly some points into zeal to get to 100% duration as it is. Also read my edit on my last post

Also, how actually does chill work? Does it make the skill recharge at a full 66% slower or does it only take longer while the condition is on and when it comes of it starts recharging like normal.

Bakitten291:

Ganzo.5079:

Bakitten291:

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

the problems with chill is that he add too much things. -66% movement speed and +66% on skill CD… its really too much, and thats why glacial hearts its so situational as trait (maybe too much situational)

Thats why it would all be short duration. Im not asking for perm chills. On symbol pulse i would want only like .5 seconds. If set on symbol use it would only be 2 seconds. Even with 100% added chill thats only 1 second per pulse or 4 seconds per use. But you also need to sacrifice some or all your rune slots, your food, and possibly some points into zeal to get to 100% duration as it is. Also read my edit on my last post

IF this trait will be a grand master trait, it will be ok for the effect that the trait provide. (with the chilling option i mean)
But this dont cover the need of the class of more snaring options, because its not the problem of one build, but its a problem of the entire class.

edit: lol i like the hot ice thing, even if too much rng dependant, with our fire condition spam, the chance have to be really low, something like 15\20% at max, to be balanced.

Ganzo.5079:

IF this trait will be a grand master trait, it will be ok for the effect that the trait provide. (with the chilling option i mean)
But this dont cover the need of the class of more snaring options, because its not the problem of one build, but its a problem of the entire class.

edit: lol i like the hot ice thing, even if too much rng dependant, with our fire condition spam, the chance have to be really low, something like 15\20% at max, to be balanced.

I would put the Trait at 25 zeal. that way it would require some decent dedication to get to.

As far as Hot Ice I think it would depend honestly, I would say maybe 33% would be about right. Our only weapon that actually applies burning outside of VoJ use is the torch #4 skill, which only pulses 3 times on 3 enemies. However the things that I could see as a bit of a problem would be purging flames, which pulses every second, and our burn on block trait with a fair amount of aegis use, focus#5 and shelter. Spirit weapon burn could be a slight issue in Spvp, not sure how many of those builds actually trait for spirit weapon burn though. One way to get around this though would be to make it last for 1 second on a 1 second cd, that way you have a chance to keep applying it but skills would not be able to stack it insanely high. (such as dropping purging flames then WW, then shelter in a zerg or something)

However the big key with this would be the massive amount of trait synergy this would have with almost every build. Virtues line would make the grandmaster virtue trait great, As i said it goes well with spirit weapons, burn on block, the radiance tree would also make good use of it through decent virtue of justice refreshing. The only Issue is that I am not really sure where the best place for it would be. I would like zeal just because the trait line does need some help, but as you said before, control is an issue of all builds.

Sounds interesting! Don’t forget Runes of the Guardian!

I think I’d still prefer the simpler solution of putting snares on weapon skills, as Ganzo mentioned, it would mean the snares would be available to every build with the same effectiveness.

Silver.8023:

Sounds interesting! Don’t forget Runes of the Guardian!

I think I’d still prefer the simpler solution of putting snares on weapon skills, as Ganzo mentioned, it would mean the snares would be available to every build with the same effectiveness.

Snare on weapons skill and snare on traits, are not solutions that exclude one each other. Exactly like for warriors that have cripple on every weapons, and this cripple can become an immobilize with one simple 10 point trait.

What we have seriosly think is this.
How much snare we need?
How heavy this snare have to be, to be effective and challenging?

Now just because guardian is not a mobile class, we need as much snare options as warriors. (on quantity) but, not as strong as the warrior (and cripple is on the borderline for me and chill is something that can be accessible only for particular build DPS only builds: AKA 30 zeal point).
i said this many and many times, we need a different condition that can last over time without be OP.
Call it “Light Burden” “Holy pressure” or whaterver you want. something that can slow the enemy for more then 3 seconds and counterable\attenuated by swiftness (chill and cripple are not so counterable) so for me a 33% slow movemet, is the maximum value we can expect, but i think is just too much for a prolonged use.

Indeed, they need not be mutually exclusive! I just try not to ask for too much Although Leg Specialist for Warrior is a good case in point.

Not trying to shut down your ideas or anything but while it’s a nice idea to have a unique snare for Guardian, I believe the whole boons and conditions system was made with the intention of consolidating skill effects, which keeps things nice and simple (look at the mess of different skills that is WoW, or at least, was WoW. I haven’t looked at it in ages). Having two separate conditions that only reduced movement speed, albeit different amounts, would be a little redundant. They’d most likely balance the skills towards the -50% movement speed of cripples in the event that we actually do get cripples.

My hopes are high! They probably shouldn’t be…

Silver.8023:

Indeed, they need not be mutually exclusive! I just try not to ask for too much Although Leg Specialist for Warrior is a good case in point.

Not trying to shut down your ideas or anything but while it’s a nice idea to have a unique snare for Guardian, I believe the whole boons and conditions system was made with the intention of consolidating skill effects, which keeps things nice and simple (look at the mess of different skills that is WoW, or at least, was WoW. I haven’t looked at it in ages). Having two separate conditions that only reduced movement speed, albeit different amounts, would be a little redundant. They’d most likely balance the skills towards the -50% movement speed of cripples in the event that we actually do get cripples.

My hopes are high! They probably shouldn’t be…

I know this but think about how strong an area cripple\chill can be for guardians. Thats why im saying that we need something lighter that can be used on area and that can last more than normal conditions. I dont disdain chill or cripple, im only thinking that are a bit strong condition for our style of combat that rely on sustained damage instead of burst.

See the issue I have with snares on weapons is that we honestly do have somewhat of a counter to being kited called Retaliation. There are ALOT of traits/skills that give us it and going 15 into virtues alone keeps it up almost 100% of the time. After some thought I do believe that the snares should go to the more DPS set builds, as 95% of them cant dip that far into virtues without sacrificing required traits. And even then most lack the health/toughness to utilize retaliation like a bunker build can.

Overall I think if we fixed scepter (which we have been asking for since the game came out) and put the snare in zeal things would balance out well for guardians. People would have to choose between the chill trait or the retaliation traits in virtues with the standard x/x/30/20/x builds, Dps would be able to somewhat stay on targets (assuming the Hot Ice trait that I mentioned) And the retaliation based guardians would have a reliable scepter to help with being kited. Also it would make a good synergy between zeal and the VoJ traits, which currently does not exist at all.

Also as far as AoE issues the only skills that would pose an issue with that would be purging flames, which is on a decent CD, Judges intervention, which only burns once, and the VoJ grandmaster trait in virtues so it would require a 20/x/x/x/30 build to specialize in.

Bash i understand your position, but retaliation is just another issue. This is an action game, so its supposed to be played actively, not just stand and “reflect” damage.

Snare have 2 roles for our class, is not just for mitigate kiting, but even for try to stop Fleeing enemyes, and retaliation for this purpose is useless.

So i agree with you that heavy dps build, need Heavy snaring option than a bunker build. But we also need some minor snaring option through the whole class, that can be improved than by particular traits.

I don’t really think snares as big a deal, balance wise, as we’re all making it out to be. I mean look at every other profession, arguably, able to dole out the same or more damage (in some cases much more) than Guardians and they have all manner of different cripples sprinkled throughout their weapon skills. One would assume that the reason we don’t have cripples on our weapons is because of our high survivability but really, isn’t the low health pool supposed the trade-off for that? How many things have to be counted as trade-offs because we have high survivability? Lower than most damage (generally, I know there are exceptions), lowest health pool, less mobility than most professions and no real cripples.
Realistically, the other professions can build to be quite survivable too without losing their snares, it’s just nobody does since they deal damage so much better than we do so it’s never as large an issue. I guess it’s because Guardians usually get pigeonholed somewhat into bunker style builds which amplifies the lack of snares issue.
I may have had a hard time explaining that, my apologies.

i think too that we have too much tradeoff for the better survivability. now if i have to make some sort of tradeoff scheme, it will become something like this:

1)Low healthpool -> better heal flow\ boon(?) ->better damage reduction
2)Low mobility -> More snaring options
3)Low attack range options -> More snaring options
4)Low Burst damage -> more sustained damage

the point 1 is ok, time to time they nerf our ability to heal, but for now this point is good.
Point 2 and 3 are not good at all.
Point 4 is respected, our sustained damage is really good, and the retaliation part, come exactly here.(but i remember that i hate as hell that boon :P)

Sustained damage is tied in with mobility. You can have all the sustained damage in the world but if you can’t keep up with your target, it doesn’t matter. Better boon upkeep should be looked at.(similar to elementalists) If Guardians are not to receive a ranged weapon, then melee needs a buff to compensate.

Arken.3725:

Sustained damage is tied in with mobility. You can have all the sustained damage in the world but if you can’t keep up with your target, it doesn’t matter. Better boon upkeep should be looked at.(similar to elementalists) If Guardians are not to receive a ranged weapon, then melee needs a buff to compensate.

Yep you are right: the mobility issue is balanced by the introdution of more snaring mechanic (and thats the objective of this thread).
For the better boon upkeep, im partially agree, id really wish they nerf the retaliation uptime, for the sake of other boons (might, regen, protection).

I’m for getting rid of retaliation all-together. I find it to be a lazy boon that actually takes no skill and it’s just spammed.

Arken.3725:

I’m for getting rid of retaliation all-together. I find it to be a lazy boon that actually takes no skill and it’s just spammed.

I agree. Either Retaliation needs an overhaul so it becomes a lot more active and strategic, or it needs to be replaced by something else altogether.

Unfortunately, touching retaliation would mean a complete overhaul of the Guardian’s control skills, which is not something I think the devs are wanting right now…especially since the guard is pretty well balanced atm (relatively speaking, of course).

Since our mobility is so low, and our abilities are centered around static objects—consecrations, symbols, wards—retaliation is the great equalizer. Much hilarity ensues when a d/d thief kills himself while I block with 8s of retaliation. Still, I agree that it promotes a lazy playstyle (though not entirely without a skill requisite), and should be tweaked. I’d rather retaliation cause a random condition for 1s on the attacker on hit, since the code is already there from chaos armor. It would fit the playstyle of a holy warrior very well, much in the mode of a smite, and definitely counter a 100B or HS spam by not giving retaliation an internal timer.

If retaliation is changed to a random condition, does that necessarily level the playing field to the degree of the bunker build? The bunker is at a disadvantage dps-wise, as single-stack conditions are a nuisance, not a dmg threat. It could be modified to turn enemy boons into conditions, thereby leveling the potential defense and offense of the enemy to relative parity; if they see a lot of conditions replacing their boons, they might freak out and avoid combat altogether, until their timers are reset. But, now we’ve walked into the domain of the necromancer, albeit at a severely-reduced capacity. Still, it works quite well with Radiant Power, so we don’t even need as major a tree rework. Plus, more reason for a full 30 into Radiance (or just the 25).

We could turn the boon-stripping into causing damage instead of conditions, which would seem more in line with Guardian, but still promotes a relatively-lazy playstyle that leads to a bunker build. If this were the option, retaliation as a continuous source of dps would have to be tweaked to something more along the lines of protection (limited in duration outside of a specific weapon set). I would consider turning ret into getting hit=random boon but then it’d be an incredibly powerful version of Save Yourselves!.

If retaliation is tweaked to something more active, then Guardian needs something that can overcome the mobility chasm separating us from the rest of the classes. Cripple is a good option, but that’s been primarily for classes that aren’t magic-based: thief, warrior, engineer, and ranger (yes, I know, some magic there). Necromancer and elementalist introduce chill, so I think it’s only natural for Guardian to expand upon that as a control device via magic abilities. I’m not going to talk about mesmer, since they get daze.

So where to put chill where it will be most effective? It depends. Like I prefaced, altering retaliation means a rework of the Guardian tree so that things not only make sense, but synergize well. One way to do this is:
Symbolic Exposure swaps with Vigorous Precision
Symbolic Power with Elusive Power
Zealot’s Speed to major and rework to activate @ 50% life.

Soooo….6 paragraphs later, just where in the hell am I suggesting we put chill? Two areas, actually, so that it is a viable tool in our arsenal alongside the other boons. We want an active Guardian that can 1.) survive through boons/blocks/conditions, 2.) control a specific area, 3.) force encounters within that area, and finally 4.) discover success through proper exploitation of the proper terrain, thereby winning by choosing the proper field of battle and forcing the enemy to fight there. The last one is iffy in WvW, but not terribly difficult if the devs increased the innate symbol radius by 25-50%. Note, tying chill to symbols makes the guard very powerful in pvp, but imo no moreso than the current regime.

Ack! Here’s my suggestion, finally:
—Battle Presence removed, useless
—Writ of Lamentations new GM in Honor, causes 1s chill per symbol pulse to enemies inside
—Zealous Spirits altered to cause 2s chill upon spirit weapon skill activation
—Glacial Hammer becomes Glacial Smite, any weapon critical causes chill for 4s (45s cd)

So now Zeal and Honor are well-defined in their strengths, and a rework of retaliation to cause boons—>conditions would strengthen Radiance as well. Valor gets a worthless trait reworked to be somewhat worthwhile, and Virtues remains a good as it ever was, though perhaps still containing a lackluster GM set. Chill becomes a nice tool for both area-denial and counter-mobility utilization, and retaliation gets turned into something that can be exploited by multiple trees to to reach its full potential, not just by having a high Power. Finally, Honor requires a full 30 to get maximum symbol utility, and by not combining duration and size, forces players to commit entirely to a symbol build if they want area denial.

I Find intresting your idea about the retaliation change, is kinda unique. and maybe can encourage guardians to use the condition damage\condition duration stats, and this can be a good thing.

But i dont agree with the trait idea. chill is really too powerfull as condition and a trait like writ of lamentation + glacial smite (are on the same traitline so they can be used together) + rune that increase chilled duration + Hammer, can create only problems for us. too much power for one single build.

Edit: the zealous spirit change is a great idea, if the chill effect apply an internal cd of at least 8\10 seconds.

So over the last couple days I have been trying to think of new Ideas for our class as far as this issue goes and I have come to one conclusion and a few other ideas.

First off I have figured that adding a snare component to symbols is sadly just not workable because of the hammer. All other weapons would work great but it would sadly make the hammer much too strong as a CC weapon. Adding in a CD to the effect would just damage the usefulness of switching weapons to put down another symbol, which would already have a 9 second penalty of nothing being able to switching back. So here are my new suggestions:

Hot Ice: pretty much the same as said before, Anytime burning condition is applied there is a chance to also apply chill for 1s. but make it a grandmaster Zeal trait with 50%+ chance. Zeal is a pure damage line, so I think that allowing this as a grandmaster will really help since the DPS guardians are the ones needing the most help. Honestly It also could work as a 100% chance with a 2s CD to stop perm chilling.

Glacial Heart revamp: Make it work on all weapons. Lower the Duration to 2s, lower the CD to 15s. This allows easy access to almost all builds, since most are Valor heavy, and also removes the hammer restriction making it useful for any weapon. At the moment the CD I believe is far to strict to make real use of this since it is only single target, so lowering the CD and the Duration to balance it out would make some sense.

Binding Shield: Whenever Aegis on you is broken, inflicts Immobilize (1s) on the person who broke it. 5s CD I would replace the 25% retaliation up time trait in virtues for this. Or maybe even making it the 15 point talent for virtues, since we already have a massive amount of retaliation up time without it. (leap/blast finishers in the tons of light fields we have) This could also work as a snare with a bit longer duration on a longer CD as well. Though this will not help with being aggressive towards other players, It will help with keeping things like P/D thieves closer to us.

Keep In mind I am not saying all of these should be put into our traits, these are just suggestions of possible Ideas. Also these could be switched around in different lines a bit. Binding shield could go in Valor since it is a defensive style trait (though it is more a better replacement for retaliation), while Glacial Heart could move to Zeal (where I think it would honestly make more sense, maybe even radiance because of it being crit based)

Bakitten291:

So over the last couple days I have been trying to think of new Ideas for our class as far as this issue goes and I have come to one conclusion and a few other ideas.

First off I have figured that adding a snare component to symbols is sadly just not workable because of the hammer. All other weapons would work great but it would sadly make the hammer much too strong as a CC weapon. Adding in a CD to the effect would just damage the usefulness of switching weapons to put down another symbol, which would already have a 9 second penalty of nothing being able to switching back. So here are my new suggestions:

Hot Ice: pretty much the same as said before, Anytime burning condition is applied there is a chance to also apply chill for 1s. but make it a grandmaster Zeal trait with 50%+ chance. Zeal is a pure damage line, so I think that allowing this as a grandmaster will really help since the DPS guardians are the ones needing the most help. Honestly It also could work as a 100% chance with a 2s CD to stop perm chilling.

Glacial Heart revamp: Make it work on all weapons. Lower the Duration to 2s, lower the CD to 15s. This allows easy access to almost all builds, since most are Valor heavy, and also removes the hammer restriction making it useful for any weapon. At the moment the CD I believe is far to strict to make real use of this since it is only single target, so lowering the CD and the Duration to balance it out would make some sense.

Binding Shield: Whenever Aegis on you is broken, inflicts Immobilize (1s) on the person who broke it. 5s CD I would replace the 25% retaliation up time trait in virtues for this. Or maybe even making it the 15 point talent for virtues, since we already have a massive amount of retaliation up time without it. (leap/blast finishers in the tons of light fields we have) This could also work as a snare with a bit longer duration on a longer CD as well. Though this will not help with being aggressive towards other players, It will help with keeping things like P/D thieves closer to us.

Keep In mind I am not saying all of these should be put into our traits, these are just suggestions of possible Ideas. Also these could be switched around in different lines a bit. Binding shield could go in Valor since it is a defensive style trait (though it is more a better replacement for retaliation), while Glacial Heart could move to Zeal (where I think it would honestly make more sense, maybe even radiance because of it being crit based)

I actually really hate things that has a chance to proc on all activities. It takes control (and skill) out of the equation. IMO chill is more of a precise condition, that requires timing for best effect, unlike your random bleed and cripple that is just nice but if it isn’t in when you want it who cares kinda deal.

If possible I’d like an actual functional change on weapon specific traits (those +5% ones, they’re the traits that need the most help IMO), in the manner of mesmer offhand traits.

But the issue with that is, how do you decide what weapons get the snares, when almost every build/weapon needs more mobility. Keep in mind that any of my suggestions could easily be switched to cripple if need be, I just personally feel that chilling makes more sense for a guardian.

The other Issue about on use chill/cripple is where do we put it? We have so many “added effect” traits its kinda crazy. you can actually trait to the point where something like Virtue of justice activation causes blind, vuln, and gives you and allies 3 stacks of might and you retaliation. Half of our weapon skills also give added effects through traits as well, (vuln/healing on symbols, Vuln when inflicting immobilize, Vuln on blind, Burn on block, might on block, etc) We already have so many that it is hard to justify finding a place to add a snare in there somewhere. The only Condition that we do that doesn’t have an added effect that can be traited at the moment is actually burn. (not counting the +10% damage trait)

No significant RNG please. That works in other MMOs just fine as core mechanics, in GW2 it’s more of a hindrance, especially when its something you have to rely on.

Some suggestions:

Wrathful Spirits-
Increases spirit weapon damage by 10%
Increase spirit weapon damage by 10% and spirit weapon commands Cripple foes for 3s.

Scepter Power-
Scepter damage is increased by 5%.
Scepter damage is increased by 5% and Smite also inflicts 2s Cripple.

Powerful Blades-
Sword and Spear damage is increased by 5%.
Sword and Spear damage is increased by 5%, and Flashing Blade and Brilliance also inflict 2s cripple.

Mace of Justice-
Mace damage is increased by 5%.
Mace damage is increased by 5% and Symbol of Faith pulses have 50% chance to inflict 1s Cripple.

Greatsword Power-
Greatsword damage is increased by 5%.
Greatsword damage is increased by 5% and Whirling Wrath projectiles have a 50% chance to inflict 1s Cripple.

Bakitten291:

But the issue with that is, how do you decide what weapons get the snares, when almost every build/weapon needs more mobility. Keep in mind that any of my suggestions could easily be switched to cripple if need be, I just personally feel that chilling makes more sense for a guardian.

The other Issue about on use chill/cripple is where do we put it? We have so many “added effect” traits its kinda crazy. you can actually trait to the point where something like Virtue of justice activation causes blind, vuln, and gives you and allies 3 stacks of might and you retaliation. Half of our weapon skills also give added effects through traits as well, (vuln/healing on symbols, Vuln when inflicting immobilize, Vuln on blind, Burn on block, might on block, etc) We already have so many that it is hard to justify finding a place to add a snare in there somewhere. The only Condition that we do that doesn’t have an added effect that can be traited at the moment is actually burn. (not counting the +10% damage trait)

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO. It does lock you to GS/Hammer combo, and the skill ceiling for the build is arguably higher than D/D eles and such, but if you look at the other weapons, mace has such crazy healing, sword has a short cooldown teleport (ignore all cripple, not that many classes can actually do this), and what else? Scepter and staff are the ones that I find to be bad, but arguably those are not supposed to be combat weapons. I think they could be revamped, but look at the thread that calls for staff revamp.

The thing that I think the symbol gives chill on pulse suggestion can accomplish, is to give guardians a different playstyle. Mass CC or group hinder, sort of similar to the function staff eles and necros can perform. (Also why I thought it should be GM major trait, since this is suppose to be about breadth of builds, not a linear power increase)

Reason being, at the end of the day, the guardian is not a versatile class in a game where every prof is supposed to be versatile. No one can deny that. There’s a couple things you can do with the guardian, either make it into a 1v1 duelist, that can only 1v1 and nothing else. At most you can 1v2 bad players, but you aren’t contributing in any other ways. Then you can be a bunker with some group support, that will in most cases die when the battle is drawn on long enough or you are singled out. You have little hope of actually killing anything.

The thing about traits that add additional effects, is not about you trying to stack anything and everything into VoJ, but it’s a choice. You won’t get too much out of just investing everything into VoJ since it’s still something that you use every 20-30 seconds, but maybe it can compliment your playstyle. The same goes with the adept honor traits regarding aegis. With an HP set up, aegis heals is better, with a boon set up, aegis gives retaliation is better.

Are traits that alter abilities the ultimate solution to all guardian woes? Proabably not, hence why the discussion, but in thinking about what traits should do, I think people had skipped a higher level question—What do you want snares for? Do you want to play your guardian differently than the bunker builds out there? If the answer is just that you wanted a different build to play with, then the first thing you should focus on is what type of role do you want your character to fulfill, then suggest things that support that direction, it may be to add snares somewhere, or it may be something totally different. This “add snares to everything” BS has gone on long enough. It’s not going to happen, or if it’s going to happen, then it will come with a DPS cut. Engis learnt this the hard way. It’s not productive. It’s about time we find real solutions.

Heinel.6548:

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO. It does lock you to GS/Hammer combo, and the skill ceiling for the build is arguably higher than D/D eles and such, but if you look at the other weapons, mace has such crazy healing, sword has a short cooldown teleport (ignore all cripple, not that many classes can actually do this), and what else? Scepter and staff are the ones that I find to be bad, but arguably those are not supposed to be combat weapons. I think they could be revamped, but look at the thread that calls for staff revamp.

The thing that I think the symbol gives chill on pulse suggestion can accomplish, is to give guardians a different playstyle. Mass CC or group hinder, sort of similar to the function staff eles and necros can perform. (Also why I thought it should be GM major trait, since this is suppose to be about breadth of builds, not a linear power increase)

Reason being, at the end of the day, the guardian is not a versatile class in a game where every prof is supposed to be versatile. No one can deny that. There’s a couple things you can do with the guardian, either make it into a 1v1 duelist, that can only 1v1 and nothing else. At most you can 1v2 bad players, but you aren’t contributing in any other ways. Then you can be a bunker with some group support, that will in most cases die when the battle is drawn on long enough or you are singled out. You have little hope of actually killing anything.

The thing about traits that add additional effects, is not about you trying to stack anything and everything into VoJ, but it’s a choice. You won’t get too much out of just investing everything into VoJ since it’s still something that you use every 20-30 seconds, but maybe it can compliment your playstyle. The same goes with the adept honor traits regarding aegis. With an HP set up, aegis heals is better, with a boon set up, aegis gives retaliation is better.

Are traits that alter abilities the ultimate solution to all guardian woes? Proabably not, hence why the discussion, but in thinking about what traits should do, I think people had skipped a higher level question—What do you want snares for? Do you want to play your guardian differently than the bunker builds out there? If the answer is just that you wanted a different build to play with, then the first thing you should focus on is what type of role do you want your character to fulfill, then suggest things that support that direction, it may be to add snares somewhere, or it may be something totally different. This “add snares to everything” BS has gone on long enough. It’s not going to happen, or if it’s going to happen, then it will come with a DPS cut. It’s not productive. It’s about time we find real solutions.

I would take a DPS cut for the snares TBH. The real issue is our utter lack of mobility. We have at most 2 600 yard leaps and one 1200 teleport on a long CD. other than that we have nothing to keep up with people at all. For a class that is supposed to be melee heavy we sure as hell have an issue with keeping people in melee range. That is the real reason behind this thread. And once again, I am not saying add snares to everything. I would just love a way to actually be able to keep up with someone once and a while. Between everyone else having great escape skills to others having the move signet. Unless we want to gimp ourselves by running retreat and staff we have no chance of catching people, and even when we run those people /still/ get away from fights that they would die in from any other class.

And the point of my post was not to say “we should stack everything on certain abilities” It was to point out that we have SO MANY things added on to our skills already there is barely any room to do more. I would lose half of those things just to get a snare on some abilities, even if something like Blind causes Vuln is a huge damage boost to my build.

And once again I had said before that the things i listed were just suggestions that I came up with that could benefit multiple builds, which is the BIGGEST issue with this. Trying to find a way to do this to benefit builds without overdoing it for some of them. Sadly I think that it is impossible to do it through symbols because of the way the hammer works, So I worked towards other ideas. And also as I said that any 1 of them could be added, not all of them. It wasn’t just a “add snares to everything” post, It was throwing Ideas out for people to comment on.

Bakitten291:

I would take a DPS cut for the snares TBH. The real issue is our utter lack of mobility. We have at most 2 600 yard leaps and one 1200 teleport on a long CD. other than that we have nothing to keep up with people at all. For a class that is supposed to be melee heavy we sure as hell have an issue with keeping people in melee range. That is the real reason behind this thread. And once again, I am not saying add snares to everything. I would just love a way to actually be able to keep up with someone once and a while. Between everyone else having great escape skills to others having the move signet. Unless we want to gimp ourselves by running retreat and staff we have no chance of catching people, and even when we run those people /still/ get away from fights that they would die in from any other class.

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

Heinel.6548:

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO.

i like this discussion, but i quote only this just to not make a wall of text.

Our ability to get stiky to the enemy are strange, if a guardian was a bursty class (but as defensive class, we cant rely on burst damage) our actual reaching ability are fine, you reach the enemy and you have the chance to take from him a lot of life.
But as class that rely most on sustained damage, we have to Hit a lot, and Vs ranged target after the first 20 seconds of fight when you start to exaust your long Cd skills, the chance to get stiky on the enemy become less and less.

For a class that Fight over time, see the damage efficiency go down on time(compared with other classes) is not a good thing, this is a prerogative of the bursty classes (usually).
That’s why we need something more “spammable”(awful term, i know), that dont rely only on the build choice, just because this is a lack of the entire class.
The trait revamp thing, is something different BUT needed, and i agree when you tie a strong condition like chill to a GM trait.

Heinel.6548:

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

This… confuses me, to say the least. What camp thinks guardian is adequate for keeping people in range? The only person that seems to have thought that so far has been you, and even then you said it pretty much requires GS/Hammer to do, which is pretty much saying we are broken because to play a melee class, you have to rely on only 2 of the many weapons we can use.

Bakitten291:

Heinel.6548:

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

This… confuses me, to say the least. What camp thinks guardian is adequate for keeping people in range? The only person that seems to have thought that so far has been you, and even then you said it pretty much requires GS/Hammer to do, which is pretty much saying we are broken because to play a melee class, you have to rely on only 2 of the many weapons we can use.

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill. It’s just that people who picked guardians aren’t likely to care about 1v1’ing or hunting people to begin with, so those threads don’t get much traffic. You can rest assured though, that guardians can in fact deliver swift justice to the wayward ele/thief/mes/what have you, and with higher success rate than warriors, to boot.

Saying all weapons should be capable duelist weapons is like saying ele focus is bad because it doesn’t contribute much to damage. But S/F eles are the tankiest ele builds around, and while staff ele are more supportive, it also cannot fare as well as the D/D in duels. Each weapon still have it’s own place. In high level fractals you start seeing more people branching more towards builds with defenses in mind, rather than all bursts and spikes.

Back to the guardian. Take mace for example. What are you going to do with a healing weapon trying to gank with it? The guardian mace actually hits very hard, in this regard, even as something ideally suited to a supporter’s toolbelt. Who were the people who said to layer mace+focus for spikes? It’s the tankiest set for the guardian, but if you do #3 and #5 together it’s an easy 6k+ dmg, more if you’re berserker spec’ed. Not exactly harmless. Be glad you actually have a choice.

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums

This is not an excuse or a motivation. Just look the older sections of the forum. This is not the first time that a discussion like this, come out in 5 months, and i dont think it will be the last if something will not be addressed.
A lot of people just give up, changed class, stop to read the forum, or changed directly game, because until now, the class changes, dont reflect the class needs for players, without any kind of real motivation.
Now i dont want to re-open old and nasty discussion, i just want to say that WE are HERE to discuss and is not true that the peoples that dont post on the forum, have no problem at all.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Why are you running around the discussion avoiding arguments?(and this is not the first time)
Is this game trinity based? Have you a guy that do nothing but heal? can you taunt a mob from the thief that steal your aggro? can you facetank a boss without moving? (ok we can do the last on some encounter)

This game have a false trinity, created by some opinable design choice. Like the defiant effect on bosses, or the specialized weapons.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Why are you running around the discussion avoiding arguments?(and this is not the first time)
Is this game trinity based? Have you a guy that do nothing but heal? can you taunt a mob from the thief that steal your aggro? can you facetank a boss without moving? (ok we can do the last on some encounter)

This game have a false trinity, created by some opinable design choice. Like the defiant effect on bosses, or the specialized weapons.

If I seemed to avoid arguments it’s because I’m here to discuss, not to argue for the sake of arguing, like you are.

This game’s trinity is support, control and damage. This has been discussed at length and beaten to death.

Because i like full discussions, not only say inaccurate things, and then change arguments. This is not discussing, is chatting.

It’s unfortunate that a more convincing case isn’t made for homogenized weapons.

I think a lot of people actually are arguing for this (even if they don’t realize it themselves). Bash is ready to take an efficiency decrease in favor of all weapons getting hinder, for example. Never mind that hindering is not needed in PvE and mace is still the premier weapon for rolling through pve with your eyes closed and hands tied to your back.

Then there was also a rather vocal individual who pointed out how guardians have too much healing. He got flamed down quickly, but he did raise a rather interesting point about how guardians are the only profession that is designed around having roles, when other professions aren’t like this at all. (I think Anet actually implicitly admitted this when they were discussing the guardian during BWEs.)

Maybe this is where the lurkers can start chiming in? We need more people to list all the pros and cons of weapons all fulfilling a basic requirement of being a combat option capable of hindering and effective damage. You can equip any combination of weapons and be an effective ganker, given your attributes and traits are balanced. This is similar to other professions such as ele, mesmers, theives and warriors. A change like this might mean greater versatility at the cost of slightly lower damage or less healing.

The question is, why do you want to push the guardian towards this direction?

Heinel.6548

I don’t think you’re here to discuss at all. You’re trolling the thread.

Ahh the irony.

I do agree with Heinel.6548 on one point, that it’s a fine line we need to walk here. The Guardian is in a pretty good state overall. And buffs would need to be minor and geared more towards making other builds besides the bunker AH build more viable.

Having said that, mobility/Counter mobility is an issue we really need to address. There are some really good ideas in this thread. I hope ANet will consider one of them.

And, yes, you CAN build for mobility/counter mobility, but the cost is pretty steep imho when other classes seem to get a good bit of it for “free”.

We are starting derailing slightly, and you are taking my words for absolute concepts. Ill try to recap my assumpions, so maybe we can fix the discussion.

For the roles thing, that is not trinity, you cant have a specilized char, i never see a support only player on dungeon or a control only player. On a trinity game, you have specialized only char, that’s the difference.

Now, to return on discussion, im not proposig to homogenize weapons, because this mean that all weapons are equal. What im proposing is to have weapons that can cover a class lack (mobility\snaring for us) and then push the weapon toward a direction.
The actual weapons are not totally wrong, the case you posted for the mace is right, but use a mace on WvW is just a loss of time for example, when with a simple crippling time to time, or a stun when someone trigger protector strike, even the mace can become avaible for the ones that want to is this weapon instead of the usual GS\hammer\Sword trinity, that is not so efficient anyway.

Heinel.6548:

It’s unfortunate that a more convincing case isn’t made for homogenized weapons.

A change like this might mean greater versatility at the cost of slightly lower damage or less healing.

Who is wanting homogenization?

No, I don’t think people are suggesting that. They are suggesting (for the most part) changes that make other BUILDS viable, not an increase in the efficiency of currently accepted builds. There should (as you seem to point towards) no sum gain in power. Just a greater availability of options.

But I may have missed a point somewhere, that’s just the way i read them.

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

Wait lol, im not asking to have equals weapons, when im talking about flexility, im referring about the mobility\snaring issue.

Ganzo.5079:

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

Wait lol, im not asking to have equals weapons, when im talking about flexility, im referring about the mobility\snaring issue.

I understand, but they are still weapon changes.

I wasn’t discounting your argument as much as I was correcting my own assumptions about the thread. Hence the “my bad”

Carry on!