Guild Wars 2

I read in a few recent posts that the “new meta” is 20/25/0/0/25, and that hammers are for “old folks”. My build uses the opposite of the “new meta”, it’s (10/0/30/30/0), and it uses a hammer… so it may be total trash! :P

I’ve just started playing WvW after playing only PVE (personal story and some dungeons). Finding the margin for error to be a lot less in WvW than PVE, I have thought more carefully about my build. This is my first attempt at trying to put one together from the ground up. I’m currently rank 6 in WvW (very new!), so this is all still a work in process and based on my early experiences.

Any feedback from WvWers out there—-changes to the build, or what role you see the build best-suited for in WvW?

Here’s the link to the build:
Symbitation build: http://tinyurl.com/ojsv7uy

Here’s the original (this was the build before incorporating feedback below; this version is better when solo, but offers far less team support; same trait distribution): http://tinyurl.com/oc2ppvl

Build’s benefits
-Good sustain: Armor sits at just over 3300. Health sits at over 19000. You get 2000 health heals from meditations (in addition to your signet or shelter).

-Good damage output: Though not a pure DPS build, you get an attack of ~3750, with okay crit chance (30%) and crit damage (40%). You also benefit from dishing damage through symbols. Two-handed mastery reduces cooldowns by 20% on both weapons, which helps boost damage.

-Good symbol synergy: Protection (Hammer 1.3), Wrath (Greatsword 4, Zeal 5), Persistent (Honor VII), and enlarged (Honor III). This all adds up to good uptime on protection and five-second retaliation from symbols, plus some additional pulse damage to boost your DPS.

-Good control: Immobilize (zealot’s embrace), Ward/Capture (ring of warding), launch (banish), Pull (binding blade), and knockdown (bane signet)

Build’s weaknesses
-In-combat mobility: Melee-only means you have to stay on your target, which isn’t always easy in WvW (for me, anyway). To finish others off, you need to rely on your control skills (you have one or two on every bar, so that helps).

-Escape: If you’re in a losing fight and there is no clear escape (e.g., off a tower wall), just go down swinging… it’s pointless to try to outrun others with this build. I think this is a general issue for Guardians, though, and not just this build. I’ve found that retreat does not solve this issue, so I don’t generally run it.

Equipment:
I run a combination of soldier’s and knight’s (I also run this gear in PVE). Relative to full zerker gear, you’re theoretically giving up about 10% direct damage (including damage from crits, but not from conditions). The benefit is that you improve the amount of damage that you can sustain by over 160% (due to an 84% increase in vitality and 43% increase in toughness; this does not include boon benefits from your protection).

This set-up also just better-suits my play-style—-fewer evades makes it easier for me to keep track of the battlefield, stay with my target, and/or spend more time in my symbols. For me, this adds up to significantly more damage output in real gameplay than zerker gear would. Just know that your mileage may vary.

Alternatives:
I situationally drop Bane Signet for one of these other skills:

-judge’s intervention (another teleport, stun break; some added burning, and additional 2000 heal; also synergizes well with fiery wrath (zeal II);

-purging flames (fire field; and outstanding condition removal with smite condition and contemplation of purity; synergy with fiery wrath; you could drop contemplation of purity for judge’s intervention and purging flames for max burning with this build);

-save yourselves (I love retaliation… I add this just for that boon; but it also synergizes VERY well with contemplation of purity—-you could drop writ of exaltation (Honor III) and replace it with superior aria (Honor II) to keep contemplation of purity and save yourselves on the same cooldown);

-wall of reflection (karmic justice for those not willing to slug things out).

If in a small raiding party, I sometimes drop retributive armor (Valor VI) and replace it with strength in numbers (Valor IV).

Quirky alternative:
Maybe it’s just me, but I have fun surviving jumps off ledges that should down me. So I sometimes swap Zeal III (Protector’s Impact) for Zeal II (Fiery Wrath); not recommended if you’re expecting a tough fight… But it’s fun when exploring!
—-

Side note: My guardian’s name is Vaedryan. Look me up if you’d like to run PVE content or for WvW (I’m on Maguuma).

Your build is selfish.

If u r running with a zerg, it’s about teamplay and supporting each other.
So there r 2 builds played by WvW Guards.
That’s 0/5/30/30/5, this one is also a bit selfish and the other, imo better one, 0/0/10/30/30.

You can play both builds with GS/Hammer/Staff, it just depends on your playstyle.

Ah and before I forget it. Some of the standard utility skills are “Stand your Ground!” and “Hold the Line!” (low cd for cond remove) and the heal tome.
Stability is a really important thing in WvW.

This build may be just barely OK for solo or very small group stuff, 1-5 players, but overall it pretty bad for a guard. Not just bad, honestly, I would avoid you when picking my team and comps. This may be suited for SPVP where all you have to do is stand in a circle, but even then… You effectively negated all guards best group play points as follows:

- Most important buff a guard can bring to themselves and their group is group stability. You do not provide any whatsoever. Most guards run at minimum “Stand Your Ground” with reduced CDs. You have absolute zero of the most important thing you can do both for yourself as well as your team. And thats just the minimum, a lot of us provide 4x stability during an engagement, or even 5x for around 50% to 75% stability uptime, alternating to around 30%-50% uptime on every 2nd minute.

- You provide almost zero group condi cleansing. Your only option here is for lightfield + GS#2 or GS#5 through it. This is completely inadequate.

- group stun-breaker, you do not provide it.

- Mobility, you do not just lack it, you are in the negatives, since you are so vulnreable to CC and condi due to rest of your build, you will not just be running at regular pace, overall you will be far behind everyone else and cause delays for your group.

- group combat effectiveness: Extremely low. If you fight a group of 15ish, you will spend most of your time out of actual combat due to being immobilized, crippled, etc. If you fight a group of organized 20+ you will spend most of your time dirt napping, because no amount of bunkering will help you survive focused fire once you are immobile. You will be stripped and downed in a manner of 1-2 seconds flat.

- Lack of mobility. You have no swiftness.

-Vulnreable to condis. necros, some thieves, engis, some warriors and mesmers will flat out extremely own you due to the lack of reliable condi removal. Smite Condition is not enough.

- You do not provide might stacks. You can give your group 22 might stacks alone on offensive end on 28 secs CD, or 15 on 15 sec CD, you provide none.

- Not enough dodge. With such low mobility and extra vulnreability to condis, you need at minimum 1 sigil of energy or stamina for the extra dodge to get through multiple AC/AOE fields or move through a hammer train. Your honor#5 trait is just not enough.

- Bad Runeset. Its a cheap alternative for classes that have low mobility and cant afford travellers, such as a mesmer for example. But it focusses on buffing swiftness which you have none, and self DPS which is pointless in groups. Relying exclusively on others to provide you with swiftness is a huge drawback. The #4 bonus is irrelevant because other classes/builds provide it better and you will have all these in combat almost non-stop anyways. The self DPS part, is again pointless as a team player focusing targets and cleaving for 1k will accomplish much better results then any hard hitting 1v1 will.

As has been stated, there are far better builds available, 0,5,30,30,5 or 0, 0, 30, 20, 20 or 0, 0, 10, 30, 30, which appropriately geared will far outperform the build you have made on just about every aspect.

@Thorwyn: I’m sure you’re right that my build is selfish… like I said, I’m very new to WvW and spent my PvE time mostly soloing, so my build is very much influenced by that.

@Tongku: Some helpful points, and some not so helpful points. Bad runeset? A lot of people seem to run Divinity; I far prefer Pack runes. The 165 Power from pack gives a greater boost to damage than the +60 to power and precision and the 12% critical damage combined. And then pack throws in an additional 100 precision. Cheaper yes… better, too. I don’t run them for the 25% swiftness uptime… that’s juts bonus when/if I run retreat.

I have fought some zergs and got owned in one, and held up well in a couple. I had a blast in the process (and helped take down several of the other zerg). To be honest, I couldn’t tell you if stability was up or not—-the pace of WvW is much faster than PvE and I didn’t catch what boons were on (I look out more for conditions). I was able to clear conditions fairly well, though. I’m not sure how your suggestions above would improve my condition cleanse.

It sounds like the only “good” build based on Thorwyn and Tongku’s feedback is a shout build. Is that the case? Is every decent WvW build a shout build (probably an AH shout build, it sounds like)?

@Tongku: That 0/5/30/30/5 build you mention above; the trait distribution isn’t all that different from mine. Why would a 10/0/30/30/0 be so much worse. You lose the area effect blind from 5 in radiance (and the might from VoJ and protection from VoC, but the build I posted above has plenty of protection). But by traiting zeal instead of 5 into radiance and virtues you get an extra symbol of wrath when you do start to take heavy damage, and you deal 10% more damage to burning enemies (which there are many of). So this is really trading the three stacks of might for a limited time for +10% damage against burning foes. The latter seems like it would give you better overall damage. Either way, it doesn’t seem like a clear “this is always better than that”.

If a shout build is where it’s at, then how’s this: http://tinyurl.com/poovrer ? (Which has you group condition cleanse, but is much more susceptible to conditions itself than the original build I posted above).

I’m sure this seems defensive. But simply getting a “you’re biuld sucks” and “this is why it sucks” doesn’t help me as much as “this is how you can make your build better”.

For PvE your build is adequate.

But for WvW you’re going to be outclassed due to the lack of group consideration that Tongku has pointed out. Your build neither roams well nor blobs well. It’s not going to let you down all the time – if your allies buffs/cleanses keep you afloat. When that doesn’t happen, roamers/duelists are going to take you to pieces or, if they can’t get through your defences, they’ll flee and you won’t be able to stop them. I don’t like WvW much because it’s such a fustercluck of overlapping ability spam, so I feel ya. Builds for it are dull.

Improvements are simple: stack as much AoE condition cleanse, healing, boons (stability, retaliation, might, swiftness,), blinds, blocks as you possibly can onto it. Drop your focus on damage and up Boon duration/healing/survivability. Prepare to mash all of these things all of the time as you attempt to become a part of a blob instead of a player.

It’s that or rethinking it into a roaming build or try and see if a PvP team needs something that does what you’re doing… I don’t do any tPvP but from what little I do know of it you’ll probably find changes requested there too.

The reason why most ppl play with 0/5/30/30/5 is simple.

High defense, high self heal. With the 5 points in Virtues, your virtues give you additional boons and boons = heal.
e.g. Virtue of Justice 3 Stacks Might, 5 ppl, 70+ heal: 3×5×70+ = 1050+
Then every time your aegis blocks something, you got heal via might on block. Removing conditions → heal. Blocking things while healing with shelter, extra heal via might on block and so on.

That’s how Im playing WvW
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJASWlUgyCXFSKEm4ES2DRCBTQsHYUG1RXFSIA-jkBBofBi+IQpmFRjtyqIasqZER16kYyAUNGA-w

@Thorwyn: Thanks for posting your build! I see all of the group support that you were talking about. I’ve tried to update my build above to give similar type support (see below). One question, though, why do you trait master of consecrations when you don’t have any consecration skills on your utility bar?

Here is my updated version, trying to think more in terms of group play (trying my best to shed the solo PvE thinking!).

Here’s the build: http://tinyurl.com/ojsv7uy

Here’s a summary of changes…

Replaced Renewed Focus with Tome of Courage: Bolsters team support with added heals and condition removal.

Replaced signet of resolve with litany of wrath: This allows for heals every 24 seconds rather than every 40, and with monk’s focus, it heals for 4150 plus damage over the next six seconds. If you can deal 4750 damage over six seconds, then you heal just as well with litany as with the signet. Symbols help bolster damage.

Replaced Bane Signet with Save Yourselves (and traited for shouts): Replaced Writ of Exaltation (honor III) with Superior Aria (honor II) and Bane Signet with Save Yourselves. This means that you draw all conditions from nearby allies every 48 seconds. You then convert all of those conditions to boons with Contemplation of Purity (which is on the same cooldown as Save Yourselves).

Replaced Knight’s gear from previous build with cleric’s Improves healing from symbols and selfless daring.

Swapped Mace/Focus for Greatsword: Additional ally condition cleanse with Ray of Judgment. Replaces Symbol of Wrath (retaliation) with Symbol of Faith (regeneration). Traited Mace of Justice (Valor VII) instead of Retributive Armor (Valor VI) to add 5% to mace damage and add 250 to healing power. Using a sigil of force and sigil of energy to get more evades (better defense and more group healing).

Replaced Two-Handed Mastery with Writ of the Merciful To add area effect healing to symbols.

Team support through symbols:
- Can keep regeneration up for the area 75% of the time (on mace), or Protection up for the area 100% of the time (on hammer); or some combination of the two.

- Through writ of the merciful, you provide area effect healing of 170 with each pulse. Can keep symbols up at least 75% of the time. This is in addition to the regeneration directly from Symbol of Life.

- Do area effect damage (about ~530 with each pulse), adding to group’s DPS with constant pressure.

oh yeah right, was doing some stuff while writing this, so I forgot to mention it.

The third utility skill is variable. You can take Wall of Reflection or Sanctuary. It just depends on the situation. You can also use Trade III for ground targeting on Consecrations or if you dont use any consecration, just take longer retaliation.

And well, the last build you created. This new heal skill is crap. You have to go offnesive to get heal when you maybe should try to escape/kite.

I dont wanne offend you, but you should stick on the common builds instead of creating your own stuff.
There is a reason why most ppl play with this builds. The current meta just let them be the best.

Thanks, Thorwyn. And you’re not offending me. ; )

Thorwyn.8469:

oh yeah right, was doing some stuff while writing this, so I forgot to mention it.

The third utility skill is variable. You can take Wall of Reflection or Sanctuary. It just depends on the situation. You can also use Trade III for ground targeting on Consecrations or if you dont use any consecration, just take longer retaliation.

And well, the last build you created. This new heal skill is crap. You have to go offnesive to get heal when you maybe should try to escape/kite.

I dont wanne offend you, but you should stick on the common builds instead of creating your own stuff.
There is a reason why most ppl play with this builds. The current meta just let them be the best.

If you don’t find making builds or being unique is fun, that is.

Well, a lot of it has to do with how you want to play. While there might be more optimal ways to WvW and support your team, people have different styles. I personally don’t really like symbols, or rather I don’t build around them. In zerg play you’re hardly going to want to stand in it to get the benefits and roaming the other person isn’t going to just stand in it.

That being said, I think there’s better ways to heal yourself while supporting your team at the same time.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJAWSlUgKD3GyKEfIFSmCAABtPAQ4CueAAAADB-jUBBYfBKBqIaslhFRjVXDT5iIqGA-w

If you’re looking for survivability, there’s no better way than giving your team boons through AH. The best part about it that it’s kitten at scaling with healing so you don’t have to sacrifice your gear to do it. The more you give, the more you heal.

I use a combination of inspired virtues with renewed justice. On kill VoJ recharges so you can spam it, giving 3 stacks of might to 5 allies each time and 15 AH procs to yourself. Along with the protection/aegis on VoC there’s regen on VoR. Another 15 into virtues gives you absolute resolution which cures 3 conditions on you and allies. And you can use it twice with renewed focus if need be.

As for utilities, stack with condition removals and stun breakers. Our low hp is sustained by AH, so clearing conditions is crucial. A huge reason why I don’t use save yourselves is because you can overload yourself with conditions, making you burn contemplation of purity. I think it’s better to support others with VoR and purging flames as you’re removing conditions from yourself too.

As for my weapon choice, I like to be mobile so I use the staff a lot. Being able to move through a zerg (25% movement speed on runes of traveler) tagging multiple enemies will recharge VoJ when they die, and give you more loot. Dealing plenty of damage spread out instead of focusing on one spot. Hammer in the back pocket for laying down symbol of protection (more AH ticks) when in one spot, or blasting. Even if you’re not in it, people will run through it triggering AH and healing you.

Hope this gave you a couple ideas on how to improve your own build.