Guild Wars 2

Our Greatsword is currently a fun, but often lackluster weapon as it is often outperformed by Hammer in sPvP and most PvE situations and outdone by Sw/F in PvE. It’s dps is nothing special while it’s burst is easily avoided and on a significantly longer cooldown than Mighty Blow.

One of the core issues, as I see it, is that Symbol of Wrath is rather redundant. As a profession with a high retaliation up-time, we don’t need a symbol that provides us with retaliation on both the skill effect and through combo finishers. As such, I would suggest two changes that would help the skill out.

Either

1) Make Symbol of Wrath grant Might instead of retaliation.

Or

2) Make the skill a Fire Field.

The first change would have the advantage of making the skill a might-stacking option for the group – an alternative to the Staff, assuming the numbers are good. This would also keep the GS a viable condition cleanser through Whirling Wrath on the field. It would also keep a source of retaliation through its leap finisher.

The second change would provide extra AoE burning options, a Fire Aura option, and synergy with the Hammer as a Might-Stacking alternative. It would remain a potent Retaliation stacker.

Personally, I’m leaning towards the first one.

I’m not sure – the wrath+leap combo is a pretty good counter to thieves if you’re roaming in WvW ( especially since the symbol can also tick for 2.5k on some builds ).

I’d probably keep that one as a light field and change hammer, staff and mace fields instead.

I dunno, in a group setting, I find Symbol of Wrath very useful. If I need a fire field I just use Purging Flames since I’d be bringing it regardless.

That’s kind of why I was leaning towards keeping it a Light Field and having it grant Might instead of Retaliation. GS already gives you retaliation through light fields with its leap finisher, but stacking Might through the symbol’s base effect in addition to that and its current function of cleansing conditions with whirl finishers would open up more versatility and group utility for the weapon.

Symbol of Wrath is currently in a horrible position, it is the symbol with the longest cd 20 sec, and it does nothing bether than the other.

Il rather have protection, regeneration, and even swiftness would be bether in most situations rathe than retaliation.

It only scales 0.05 more than the other symbol from Attack, but the bonus base is atleast nice. Would mather where you compare it but in most cases the base value is atleast double, around 647 base damage over the ticks.

Add in that they now apparently bugg fixed hammer, (I never though it was a bugg. Having a trait that improves a 3.7 second cast attack by as much as a 20 second cooldown is not balance, that my good friend. Is bullshaaait.

So in my oppinion, GS symbol is extremly terrible compared with the other symbols.

If it gave two boons rather than one it would make sense, but it does not. Not even the damage make any sense.

Instead of individually changing symbol combo fields, why not have traits do that for us. Want fire fields in your symbols? Kindling Zeal. Ice Fields? Glacial Heart. Water? Writ of the Merciful. Then we just need a symbol on Sword and Scepter, and then a symbol trait for Radiance and Virtues, and boom.

More on topic, GS symbol can be for easy retal stacking, but the symbol itself doesn’t warrant a 20s cd. Maybe if the symbol lasted a few seconds longer, or just a reduced cd, but some more balancing with potential retal durations is probably holding it back.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Our Greatsword is currently a fun, but often lackluster weapon as it is often outperformed by Hammer in […] most PvE situations and outdone by Sw/F in PvE.

Ehm, what? Greatsword is an integral part of almost all useful PvE builds.

Let me debunked your personal myth before you continue to mislead other new Guardian players:

1)Greatsword=Lackluster and out performed by Hammer in sPVP:
This is a total blasphemy! Both weapons are equally good. Trap your opponent with Ring of Ward+Symbol of Wrath = Win. It’s all about the technic combo to perform it, not just smashing button and expect people to walk on it.

2)Symbol of Wrath is redundant:
It did tremendous job so far till Arena had to nerfed it down to the state as it is now. Though, still a hard kitten kicking skill! GS is the only weapon that grant us instant reta, and you wanna remove it. We can never have enough of retaliation boon. Its what compensate our lack of mobility!

3)PVE situation ontdone by Sw/F :
This argument is a total flaw. GS Symbol of Wrath works great with AOE dmg which is superior to any kitten nal we have in PVE.

Your proposal:
1)Granting might
Granting Might will defeat the purpose of the holy Guardian’s name!
In fact, we got Empowering Might in our trait which is far more superior that forcing your teammate to walk over our symbol for …might.

2)Fire Field
In sPvP, reta is far superior than might.Aoe reta boon on allies is better for sure,specially gang fight in midpoint.

Conclusion, Symbol of Wrath is good as it is now.

The GS is actually a very well-off weapon. As a matter of fact, all classes that can use a GS want to use a GS. Whoever was overseeing weapon skills development at Anet certainly loved the GS.

I am not saying that GS by itself is bad, sure the 5 sec might on a 2.7 sec chain is neither good or Guardian like.

Or the fact that the Symbol itself deals 10% more scaling damage and 300 base. And in exchange it grants retaliation, and has a 150% longer cooldown compared with mace.

Add that they both gain the same bonuses from the traits, one may wonder what the next brilliant move they will add, maybe increase our best single target dps weapon by 5%, or maybe add that our currently best burst weapon should now also sacrifice offensive stats for more healing.

I find the greatsword one of the Guardian’s best available options, it has great trait synergy across pretty much every trait line and is very flexible across different builds, which is a lot more than what I can say for the other weapons. I think it’s a shame that almost any combination of one handed weapons we have don’t quite work as well as our two handed weapons.
We need more combo finishers and/or symbols on one handers if you ask me.
(Don’t even get me started on the sword :P I’ve already made enough threads about that one, haha!)

What trait synergi? The 5% more damage does not synergise with anything, and buffing the symbol effect is not a synergi. You could combine the symbol traits in zeal and Honor, that is synergi.

That would be to combine traits to improve synergi, but to do that you need to spend way to many traits only to gain tiny advantages. Especialy since you consider the long cooldown on the GS. For hammer however, it would be alot bether.

You leave our greatsword alone! Incredible dps weapon.
Plus I think you’re forgetting that symbol of wrath is one of the highest dps moves we have on a per time spent casting basis.

No, no, no GS is fine. Nothing to see here. Please get back to complaining about the real problems such as;

• base HPs.

The following is a list of traits I found that can work well, directly, with the greatsword. “Directly” meaning ignoring Virtue of Justice and its related traits, since they’ll work with any weapon.

Zeal: The second and third minor traits, VII.
Radiance: VI.
Valour: XI.
Honour: III, VII, IX, X.
Virtues: The third minor trait, II.

Total: 11.
Most other weapons: Not 11.

By, “trait synergy”, I merely meant that it is an incredibly flexible weapon, trait-wise, compared to others. I just say, “trait synergy” in lieu of saying, “there are various traits that work well with it”. I believe you meant trait synergy as different traits playing off each other, notable example, Radiance 5, 15 and VI, which is great to have etc but I wasn’t referring to that. My apologies for any confusion.

fadeaway.2807:

You leave our greatsword alone! Incredible dps weapon.
Plus I think you’re forgetting that symbol of wrath is one of the highest dps moves we have on a per time spent casting basis.

I think you are not really knowing the difference between dps and burst, our GS have burst i will agree on that, but as a dps weapon it is terrible.

300 higher base and 10% more power scaling for a +150% longer cooldown is not a dps move. Burst yes, assuming your opponent don’t move or dodge once every 20 second.

Auto attack needs a rework on the might stack, one stack for each mob up to max 3 stacks each 2.7 second and lasting for 5 seconds is terrible, but i will admit that the scaling damage on auto is nice.

Symbol of wrath is terrible compared to other symbols. Long cooldown for a minor burst damage is terrible. Burst is king but not if you get 10% for a 150% longer cooldown.
And i dont even think retaliation is on par with any of the other symbol boons, 150 damage to attackers, well thats nice to bad they hit me for 5k through 3.5k armor.

‘sigh’ It would be really helpful if people thought for a tiny moment whether they are responding to PvE- or PvP-related stuff.

“Minor burst”
1016 base damage for a 1 second cast.

Symbol of wrath is amazing and one of the reasons dps guards switch from 1h to greatsword during their rotation. 1h has the higher auto dps, gs provides the spike. Just like the 100b + 1h axe warriors of old.

Svarty.8019:

No, no, no GS is fine. Nothing to see here. Please get back to complaining about the real problems such as;

• base HPs.

That’s not an issue. Guardians would be absurd if they had the base hp of a Warrior. The problem is that Warriors have too much healing after the Healing Signet buff – they beat us in mobility, control, passive sustain, and hp.

If you’re looking for an issue that can and should be fixed on the Guardian’s end, look no further than crappy minor traits: all Zeal (outside of PvE), Radiance 15 (outside of PvE), and Valor 15. There’s plenty of terrible and/or uncompressed major traits as well, but those can at least be substituted with better ones.

fadeaway.2807:

“Minor burst”
1016 base damage for a 1 second cast.

Symbol of wrath is amazing and one of the reasons dps guards switch from 1h to greatsword during their rotation. 1h has the higher auto dps, gs provides the spike. Just like the 100b + 1h axe warriors of old.

Please sir tell me where you get your numbers, becouse Guardian GS is not 1016 base damage for one second, it is 925 / 5 for “1/4 second cast rounded down”. So please my good sir, if you want to post numbers. Get your fact right, cause remember kids. Knowing is half the battle.

Perikittenor.1892:

Please sir tell me where you get your numbers, becouse Guardian GS is not 1016 base damage for one second, it is 925 / 5 for “1/4 second cast rounded down”. So please my good sir, if you want to post numbers. Get your fact right, cause remember kids. Knowing is half the battle.

Sure!

Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Weapon strength : Exotic 80 Greatsword is 995 – 1100 damage, and the tooltip uses the rounded up average of this, 1048.
Power : 916 is our base power.
Skill-specific coefficient : Symbol of Wrath’s coefficient is 2.75 over 5 ticks.
Target’s armor : The tooltip uses 2600 to determine damage.

Damage done = 1048 * 916* 2.75 / 2600
Damage done = 1015.35, or since the tooltip rounds down; 1015.

I don’t know the actual cast time, but it’s certainly not 1/4 of a second. Tooltip & wiki cast times are notoriously incorrect. Coefficients are believed to be correct on the wiki because you can reverse engineer them by doing what I just did backwards.

Anyway, adding symbol to your regular auto attack + WW rotation is a chunky dps increase. Anywhere between 5% and 10% depending on how efficient you are with your 1h sword swaps which you can probably learn more about in other threads.

This statement of yours implies you do not know how damage and scaling works in this game:
“It only scales 0.05 more than the other symbol from Attack, but the bonus base is atleast nice. Would mather where you compare it but in most cases the base value is atleast double, around 647 base damage over the ticks.”

Take another look at the damage formula:
Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Let’s compare 916 power to 1832 power, to demonstrate ‘scaling’.
1048 * 916 * 2.75 / 2600 = 1015
1048 * 1832 * 2.75 / 2600 = 2030
Wow look at that, doubling power doubled the damage done.

The same is true for say.. symbol of swiftness which only has a coefficient of 2.5.
1048 * 916 * 2.5 / 2600 = 923
1048 * 1832 * 2.5 / 2600 = 1846

Despite the coefficient on the wiki leading you to believe that wrath had better scaling as you put it, everything scales the same way in this game.

A final note on the above. The numbers are likely all off by 1 or 2 points. This is because GW2 calculates the damage of each tick, rounding where needed, and then adds it up for the tooltip. For example a coefficient of 2.5 over 5 ticks should actually be the above formula with 0.5 in the coefficient variable, and then the rounded output of that multiplied by the 5 ticks. I wanted to keep the math simple to read

Like you said, knowing is half the battle.

Oh snap, they totally got you

Im not sure i understand the statement on your “Everything scale the same”. Since Wrath Scales 0.55 with Attack, and Swiftnes, Faith and protection all scale 0.5 with attack, and for base. I allways count Attack rather power, base is base in my eyes.

But your calc is correct, and yes i do assume most of the information on the wiki is correct. The only difference in our calc is the difference what we call base and that i prefer to show each tick, rather than full effect.

Edit: "I might have been slightly aggresive in my writing at first and for that i am sorry, but the main issue as i have now is that Symbol of Wrath vs Symbol of Protection is, Wrath 519 vs target dummy, protection 489 vs target dummy. Hammer has 100% uptime and GS has assuming same traits, 35% uptime. Hammer even colide as it last longer then attack chain.

For me the damage increase is not worth the lack of uptime, and in my eyes protection will be worth alot more than retaliation. Add in that Hammer can also have retaliation with blast finisher."

The only problem is that hammer is remarkably boring.

Yes, yes it is. I find it helpfull to watch movies while playing with it, since that is ussualy the ammount of focus i need to give it.

Symbol of Wrath used to be on a 15s cooldown and grant 2s of Retaliation every tick =/

Silver.8023:

The only problem is that hammer is remarkably boring.

i’ts slow and some skills makes me wonder. One ring, one skill that launches your opponent. Looks fun but it hurts dps. And hammer 1 is just sooo…. sloooowww…