Guild Wars 2

Hello guys

When I was 80 I went straight for a full glass cannon PvE power/precision/crit armor set full exotic.

Now after a couple of weeks I wanted to try something else.
I bought a full rare level 80 support set with Cleric stats (power/tough/Healing)

My weapons are staff / mace + focus
And my build is 0/0/10/30/30.

Now I did some dungeons (explorable modes) and I couldn’t help but notice the fact that I don’t know if I’m actually helping the group?

My core traits are shouts 20% – Consecration ground targeted – Consecrations last longer – Symbols heal and symbols are larger.

I see grene numbers ticking on my screen, I save people, I give 12 stacks of might everytime I can. I do everything in my power to keep people alive.

BUT I don’t KNOW wether I’m doing good? There’s no way to know it might not have been better with let’s say my glass cannon dps build.

My core utility skills are always Healing Breeze and ofcourse I change the other 3 around based on the fights. If enemies have alot of knockdowns I would take the stability consecration and the stability shout for alternation along with the 33% dmg reduction + regen shout.

etc. I always adapt to the fight.

Does anyone ever support as a guardian? And if so am I doing it right? Use this as a guide if you want because there are not many guardian support builds out there.

When I asked the group they said it helped alot but yea… that doesn’t answer my question

~Saturn

Other than asking your group whether or not they percieve your support as good, I think you just have to decide for yourself in what areas you could’ve done better. It’s indeed harder to discern than in other games.

The real question though is: Do you enjoy it?

I play a shout support guardian. I know that there are groups when i have made the difference. You dont realize what you do for the party. Infact i dident realize it till people have messaged me after a zone asking to friend me because of the difference i made on the zone.

Wafflesomg.4820:

The real question though is: Do you enjoy it?

I don’t think that’s the real questions. Enjoyment and effectiveness are two wildly different things.
And it is indeed quite impossible to see how well you’re doing at support or control or compare effectiveness of certain support strategies.

Even if I don’t enjoy it. All I want is to preform well. Even if it means I don’t like doing it. Part of my competitive nature.

As for the shout support (SiNoS) what gear/ traits and trait marks do you choose?

And does the build I have described fit the guardian support role ?

Several utilities really make the class perfect for these dungeons. Stability and Wall of Reflection have saved my groups countless times. I personally prefer the hammer over the staff as it gives control and good damage.

Hmmm I might need to look into Hammer then, however I really like the staff because of the group wide 12 power for a LONGtime which really makes a difference, the #5 skill is also amazing against melees because the AI isn’t smart enough to run around it, when I have usd those 2 skills I just place the swiftness symbol to heal and then switch weapon sets

If you wonder if you’re helping… stop doing it. If everyone suddenly drops dead, well, then you know you’ve been making a difference.

That said, it’s not easy to simplify. A dungeon party of semi-intelligent people will hit their own stride within an encounter or two and develop a group dynamic and tactics based around their composition, builds and the players’ tastes. Which is to say, some people might lean towards a more aggressive playstyle, some might be more careful. If people usually play carefully and realize they can go out a bit more because of support, they will often do so. If they’re still not in trouble, they might push their luck even further.

If they lack that support they will go back to their baseline and you won’t see a difference in survivability, even though there will be a difference in efficiency.

Does anyone ever support as a guardian? And if so am I doing it right? Use this as a guide if you want because there are not many guardian support builds out there.

It’s hard to get away from doing support as a Guardian. Very few builds actually have little to no investment in group support.

The thing is, Support isn’t just something that you do through your heals and shouts and symbols. It’s not some marginal aspect of your play that’s somehow divorced from everything else (read: the melee, the range, the dodging, the kiting).

It’s better to think of support as the sum of everything you do rather than the specific effect of a few specific abilities. Barring things like Wall of Reflection, it’s going to be pretty hard to gauge the contribution of a specific Utility in the course of a fight. You can’t tell exactly how much your heals helped keep people alive. You can’t tell precisely whether or not your Protection boon saved someone’s kitten And that’s kind of the point.

A lot of us have come from WoW or games like WoW where our contribution to the team is: A) Defined by our role and B) measured numerically. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your opinion), GW2 does away with quantifying your contribution and instead depends on individual performance and team coordination.

I know it seems like a cop-out answer. For that I’m sorry. The best input I can offer is this: Were you using your Utilities at specific times, or did you feel like you were popping them randomly? Did you coordinate with your team through your playstyle? Did everyone get through the content alive and in good shape?

The truth is that the efficacy of a single build or a single playstyle will almost always be overshadowed by the competent teamwork of a group (whether or not the team is dodging, making use of LoS, kiting, picking up Downed allies, focusing on called Targets, etc.) , or conversely, rendered pretty much useless by the incompetence of a totally uncoordinated team (i.e, players running off on their own, pulling extra mobs, staying in melee all the time, picking their own targets, not making use of their utilities, and generally not working together.)

@Eveningstar: I agree, pretty much. I’ve also pointed out on occasion that support (or control) isn’t something you do exclusively, but rather something you do in between damage.
That being said, support is still a (sub-)role you can specialize in through traits and skills and something that (some) players enjoy doing (especially within the Guardian profession) and want to do well. But if you can’t see the difference you make, or don’t have a way of seeing your effectiveness, that diminishes the (sub-)role somewhat and makes it overall less fun to actually play.
Control has this problem less severely, because of the strong visual component of it.

@Eveningstar

Thanks for the constructive feedback and I agree with you, for the most part.

I am not popping things randomly. Thats why I adapt my skill set for most encounters to actually try to make a difference.
Me, aswell came from WoW (I quit about a year and a half ago) and you are spot on about the difference between these two games. However: People WILL adapt to their composition just like you said they would. But you still have the problem wether or not you are making an impact. Maybe you’re only doing 5% of the work and the other four people might be the same off without you, or better of simply replacing you by a DPS class.

As for damage I do not really see that I’m doing much. Staff seems to be hitting pretty low and the mace autoattack is just great for the AoE heal on third hit. Maybe I just find the damage low because my main ‘spec’ is a full exotic berserker set.

I’ve only done one dungeon as a support completely and what I noticed is that I can turn my group 90% untouchable for X amount of time. the sanctuary, staff #5 skill and the protection shouts/skills just disables the monsters from doing any harm at all.

The problem was in this dungeon that I have done as support. Monsters weren’t dying in this X amount of time. Let’s say it takes 2X time to actually kill of the group. During the recharge of all of these skills (the “invulnerability to the group”skills have a long cooldown < X) I don’t make a HUGE impact. Ofcourse I help and I heal and I give might and boos and do some dmg. The monsters just tear our group apart.

So maybe this group was just low geared and with a good geared group we could rip through the monsters in Y time (with Y<X) so we can get practiacally no damage for each group of monsters.

So ye it got me thinking. I WAS making a huge impact on the fights (trash pulls) but the group wasn’t really up to taking full advantage off it. Then again we come down to the point: does it really do any good for the group that I am support because they can only profit half from it.

I will do some more dungeons tonight and post my findings.

Keep the feedback rolling!!

My main is a lv. 80 guardian, with full Cleric gear, cleric weapon and cleric accessories, 0/0/10/30/30 trais, supportive utilites(wall,hallowed ground, save yourselves,etc and when these aren’t needed, signets) and staff/mace+focus. I’m not sure. I’m not sure if am a good support, or I could help my team better by playing differently, what I can say tho, is that if you look at your teammate’s HP bar top left, you’ll notice THE DIFFERENCE it makes to have a dedicated healers/support character in your group.

It really depends on situations, like those totems on Orr, where the wall is really useful, or against that little mob of archers on AC… I’ve had supportive elementalists in my group and it really does make a difference when people care if you gonna live or not… I can’t tell you if it’s better or worse because that’s how I’ve been playing since the headstart….

Another thing, this isn’t a good setup for PvE in general(map completion, jumping puzzles,etc), nor it is for WvW, this is purely focused on dungeons. But in the end, it’s what eveningstar said, if you have a bad team, you are going to do bad, and if you have a good team, you gonna do good, GW2 is not that MMO where someone carries the damage, or the healing… if everyone heals a little, and damage a little, it really doesn’t matter… but yeah, I would like to see the perspective of someone who played both “roles”, damage and support, because I’m thinking that a hybrid build would be better, like a staff/hammer or GS build with offensive and supportive traits/utilities.

Saturn L O L.1406:

Even if I don’t enjoy it. All I want is to preform well. Even if it means I don’t like doing it. Part of my competitive nature.

As for the shout support (SiNoS) what gear/ traits and trait marks do you choose?

And does the build I have described fit the guardian support role ?

Build: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#Mccz0V0MMaGvomCFvm9MaxxoMabmsa

Armor: Soldier’s (Power/Toughness/Vitality), Weapons: Soldier’s (Power/Toughness/Vitality), Jewelery: Cleric (Healing Power/Power/Toughness), Rune’s: Soldier (25 Vitality/15 Toughness/50 Vitality/35 Toughness/90 Vitality/Shouts remove a condition.), Sigil’s: Force (% Damage)

I tend to do a lot of body blocking which is why i use shelter instead of healing breeze. Frankly i can block a lot more damage than most characters can take. And shelter gives a channeled block and heals me for 5k. Also normally lead off with the staff using 3, 2 (then 2 again if anyone’s taken any damage to explode the orb), 4, ` (Swap to my greatsword), 2, 3 (This does nice aoe and since you used 2 right before this does an aoe condition purge. Ill also sometimes hit my Save Yourselves to pull all conditions onto me at this time if my groups close enough.), eather auto attack till i can go back to staff at this point or might just 4 skill to blind the mob if i see a huge attack charging. Once back to the staff will drop 3 again then 2 for quick heal. Once switch counter hits 4 seconds start up 4 skill again then rinse and repeat. For most fights this works very well for me.

I think the OP’s question fundamentally touches on two very different things:

1) Does a Guardian running a Support build make a difference to a dungeon party?

2) Does Healing Power make any bloody difference.

Does a Guardian running a Support build make a difference to a dungeon party?
I do make a difference, even if the party is generally ignorant. With three Shouts, Pure of Voice and Absolute Resolve, I’ve turned the tide of battle many times by providing group-wide Condition removal (plus buffs). Guardian Support isn’t about getting your party to kill Mob A faster, but increasing your party’s survivability throughout the fight.

Does Healing Power make any bloody difference.
Like some of you, I’ve made the most obvious choice and went full Clerics, spotting about 1300+ Healing Power (only Rare Cleric Trinkets and Weapons; armour is Exotic). It’s recently that I really started to wonder if Healing Power actually contributed much. Considering my above setup, activating Resolve heals the group for 2000-ish, applies Regeneration that ticks for 290+ per second and removes three (3!) Conditions. With 300 Healing Power just from Traits, Resolve heals for about 1300-ish and Regeneration ticks for around 165 per second.

In Arah Explorable, the average mob auto attack on my character’s 2600-ish Armour and Protection is between 400-1000, definitely much more on my glass cannon party members. This means that the 130 Health per second the party is missing looks like it hardly matters; especially so when you start considering the actual big hitters, like Giganticus Lupicus.

While some may use the straw man argument of those “clutch heals”, it’s hard to deny that those 1000+ attribute points could be spent elsewhere, be it in Vitality for personal survivability, or Precision which allows us to make a bigger damage contribution as well as providing Vigor to ourselves.

Conclusion
Between Hold the Line, Stand Your Ground, Pure of Voice, Absolute Resolve and Renewed Focus, a Shout Support Guardian like the one I play brings a lot to dungeons where Conditions matter, be it 25 stacks of Vulnerability applied by Risen Illusionists or the level 85 Poison from a Champion Risen Spider Queen. This is before I add on other tools such as Protection, Aegis, Retaliation, Swiftness and Wall of Reflection. The best part is I’m able to use whatever weapon set that suits my fancy, despite all the above.

Healing Power, however, matters so very little amidst all this.

We definitely make a difference to the party, but more of in terms of defensive Boons like aegis, protection.

Healing wise, well the heals are pathetic but it saves lives sometimes. Im using staff + scepter/focus or GS. Staff has some nice healing 2.5k+ for #4 and 1.5k for #2. In addition when i dodge roll, i will heal allies nearby for 1.5k. Looks big but like Ojimaru mentioned, it pales in comparison to dmg everyone recieves.

I hope maybe Heals scales more with Healing power or they reduce CD on staff heals and make #4 a cast and not channel, mobility is important. I understand this game tries to limit the Holy Trinity cliche but right now as support, i feel we’re more of a buffer for when the party makes minor mistakes. The strength of our support depends highly on the skills of our party members.

Remember to use combo field for healing as well, and that Tome of Courage might be better to have in dungeons than healing-spec’d gear. And, since ranged mobs are generally dumb, if they’re focused on another player and that player stands still, you can pop a Wall of Reflection right in front of them to prevent the damage from even happening in the first place. That, I think, is more important than healing.

Now, I have 537 in healing power with my current build, but that’s mainly through my traits…and in HotW a Mighty Blow in a water field healed everyone nearby for over 1k health. Does anyone know how that healing effect is calculated? As in, is it my healing power, or the healing power of the person who places it? If so, it might be best for guardians to hook up with ele’s who are spec’d for healing power instead of the guardian.

ImariKurumi.5761:

i feel we’re more of a buffer for when the party makes minor mistakes. The strength of our support depends highly on the skills of our party members.

This sums up exactly what we are ment to do. Support is not ment to be an oh crap button to save bad players. Thats a healer and frankittenhis game doesent have healers. We are ment to provide a buffer. You notice your groups getting a little low on hp and theres a big attack due. You pop some aoe healing to buffer there hp till they can use there own healing skill’s. This is the point of support. Were ment to supplement them not carry them. They still have to do there part.

What Sinos said above me is exactly what I would have said aswell
but just to add: As a support player I noticed I die half, if not 1/4 times of what I used to go downed as as a dps. So I don’t really think healing power should be replaced with Vitality: you got enough survivability with full toughness gear + maxxed vitality traits.

After doing like 5 more dungeons as a support, better and worse groups I just have noticed that playing support with a GOOD group just makes a huge difference. The damage is there and a support supporting them just makes them kill tons faster.

With a bad group however like I mentioned before: they can hardly make use of the support to the fullest potential: Example: Last boss SE expl path 3: Destroyer of Worlds

As you may or may not know this boss spawns 4 adds, tactic being just kite the adds while damaging the boss.

What I decided to do is just dedicate this fight for me at least by kiting the monsters: at least 3 of them. One of the guys was smart enough (read sarcasm) to attack one of the mobs for about 1 minute so I could impossibly draw aggrro from him again.. Unfortunatly I was left with only 3/4 adds and the main group had an add running through them all the time…

Let’s idealise this and say I had aggro of all 4 mobs. And I kite them around all the fight: ok the main group only has 4 people to kill thoe boss with. But my damage is negligable to a berserker geared dps’er. So support role I see is more to like simplify the fight. The whole threat of the adds is GONE.
I kite them up the stairs, jump down to the main team channel the #4 staff skill pop resolve and some more shouts to get them topped off rinse and repeat.