Guild Wars 2

I would just like to preface this post by saying that I am prepared for this idea to be shot down, but I would very much appreciate constructive criticism as supposed to insults or the like.

Considering the upcoming changes to guardian traits, it seems that the developers are trying to push guardians in the direction of having a viable condition spec. However, unless the scaling on the new Radiant Retaliation trait is very good (as to make retaliation do ~800 damage per tick), I do not see condition based guardian builds becoming viable. PREPARE FOR A WALL OF TEXT [TL;DR available for those who don’t wish to suffer through my expertly muddled post].

In my opinion, this stems from the fact that we have only one weapon (torch) which inflicts a condition; and even then, it is not purely focused on conditions [I am discounting focus as it only inflicts blind, which is not a damaging condition, and tthis can be effectively discounted when talking about condition builds]. While the torch #4 skill is a very good source of burning damage, the #5 skill is lackluster in a direct damage build, and is practically useless in a condition build. The torch currently seems an odd mish-mash of condition and direct damage.

I propose a change to the torch #5 skill that makes it a more condition centered weapon. The skill would read something as thus;
“Conflagration: Extinguish all stacks of burning on the target enemy, and deal direct damage equal to 50% of the consumed burning damage.” [1 second channel, 1200 range, 20 second cooldown, can crit].
Now, I admit that it sounds quite overpowered on first read, but let me explain precisely how I would think it would function, why it would be beneficial to condition guardian, and a few ideas on how it could be balanced. Edit: PurebladeProductions had a good idea about capping the amount of condition damage (from burning) converted to direct damage (at a 50% ratio) at 20 seconds, with the rest of the burning remaining. This would ensure a fair ceiling for the direct damage, while still maintaining the utility/choice involved.

Illustrating the skill
Let me give you a few examples of a situation in which this skill would be used to illustrate how it functions. For the purposes of these, I will assume that the guardian deals 700 damage per tick of burning, as this requires a reasonably obtainable 1488 condition damage. Bear in mind I am not a very experienced theory crafter, so my numbers may be VERY inaccurate, so feel free to correct/comment on all of the calculations made throughout the post.

1. A condition spec’ed guardian attacks an enemy target, and stacks ~15 seconds of burning on them using VoJ active, torch #4 skill and purging flames. Assuming no might stacks and the assumption above, this will deal 10,500 damage over the 15 second duration. However, using the proposed torch #5 skill conflagration, he can sacrifice half of this DoT damage to deal it as upfront damage that can crit, equal to 5,250. [In this example, I was simply trying to illustrate how the skill would work].

2. A condition spec’ed guardian and a power-based necromancer with the Dhuumfire trait attack an enemy target. Once again, the guardian stacks 15 seconds of burning on the target, while the necromancer procs Dhuumfire, resulting in a total of 20 seconds of burning on the target. The guardian then uses the new #5 torch skill. This would consume both the burning from the guardian and the necromancer. However, it would also take into account the condition damage of the source of the burning. So, instead of dealing 7,000 upfront damage (the amount if the entire burning was from the guardian), it would deal 5,250 (from the guardian) + 656 (half of the damage from the necromancer). This leads to a total of 5906 direct damage from the new #5 skill. [This example was to illustrate how the skill would function when the burning is sourced from multiple targets].

3. A condition based guardian and a condition based warrior each stack 15s of burning on a target. Assuming that they both have the same condition damage (1488), this will result in 30s of burning damage at 700 damage per tick, assuming that it can be stacked in less than 9 sources of burning. This would deal 21000 damage over the 30 second duration as a DoT. If the guardian uses the torch #5 skill immediately, this would deal 10,500 damage upfront. [This was to illustrate how the skill would function with two condition damage characters stacking burning on the same target].

Addressing some possible concerns
Evidently, this skill would take some balancing; no other skill of it’s type has been implemented into the game, so this is a bit of uncharted territory. So I’ll use this section to address some of the questions/concerns that I have asked myself, and that some of you may ask. I may add to this section later if people come up with other pertinent questions!

Isn’t the cooldown a bit low?
This one I had a difficult time to answer, as I have no idea the effect this skill would really have until it could be play-tested. The CD might have to be lower as the condition damage you sacrifice might not make it worth using on a 20s cooldown, or the burst damage may be too “refreshable”, and require a longer cooldown.

But it can crit. WTH?
In a situation where this skill would be dealing a large amount of damage (talking as if the guardian is by himself), the guardian would not have a high amount of either precision or crit damage to make this worth worrying about. For those of you who were wondering, I am basing these ideas loosely on this guardian build (the 3rd slot on the Radiance line is left blank pending the upcoming GM trait).

What if the guardian and another condition class both work together to apply burning? Won’t that be overpowered?
This was my worry concerning this idea, and I am sure this was the first thing that jumped into your head on the way to dismissing it. As can be seen in example #3, a 10,500 upfront direct damage hit from this skill is VERY large. However, as burning duration caps at 9 stacks from different sources, achieving this burning duration may be difficult. That being said, the damage of the skill might have to be capped up to a particular burning duration eg. can only covert up to 20s of burning into direct damage (capping the damage from the skill to 7,000 damage assuming 1488 condition damage).

How will this help make a condition based Guardian viable?
The main problem with a viable condition based guardian is that we only have access to one condition; burning. This means that we rely on one source of damage through conditions, and cannot “load up” someone with conditions as other classes can, making it easier to cleanse our damage. If we load up someone with a sizable duration of burning in order to do damage, it will just get cleansed off before it can really have any impact, and then we are left twiddling our thumbs until our burning application skills can come back up again. However, using this new torch #5 skill, the guardian now has the choice to sacrifice a portion of their potential damage to be able to do a big hit to an enemy player. This will lessen our reliance on trying to continuously re-apply burning in order to do damage; essentially, we can now fight the tide of condition clears despite only having one condition.

Feel free to comment/discuss this idea, I welcome any constructive feedback.

TL;DR. Guardian only has access to one condition, that always slips off foes. This new torch skill (in bold), will help us actually do damage using our condition, instead of having it be continuously

As much as I’d like condition guardian to be a thing, this still feels overpowered for certain builds – in particular ones where you max burn duration.

Incendirax.3567:

1. A condition spec’ed guardian attacks an enemy target, and stacks ~15 seconds of burning on them using VoJ active, torch #4 skill and purging flames. Assuming no might stacks and the assumption above, this will deal 10,500 damage over the 15 second duration. However, using the proposed torch #5 skill conflagration, he can sacrifice half of this DoT damage to deal it as upfront damage that can crit, equal to 5,250. [In this example, I was simply trying to illustrate how the skill would work].

With this same combo, my build (this is in regards to sPvP) would inflict 36 seconds of burning (32 seconds technically, because you have to let Zealot’s Flame last for its full duration). With 1403 Condition Damage and the +33% Burning damage trait, my burning ticks for 903.07 per second for a total of 28898 damage over 32 seconds.

If I were to use this new Conflagration skill at that point, I would inflict an immediate 14449 damage with a 18% chance to inflict 23119 damage instead (total 160% critical damage) – and let’s not forget the 3612 burning damage inflicted beforehand. Yeah, that’s quite a lot of damage.

In regards to the cap of 9 stacks on burning duration, that combo only inflicted 5 stacks of burning duration.

I suppose the innate lower defense of my build could balance it out, but the possibility of nearly one-shotting a warrior/necromancer with a Barbarian Amulet (again, sPvP) is not that small.

Perhaps an idea could be to have a maximum amount of burning converted to direct damage, somewhere around 20 seconds. Any burning duration past that would be left on the target still.

PurebladeProductions.4875:

Perhaps an idea could be to have a maximum amount of burning converted to direct damage, somewhere around 20 seconds. Any burning duration past that would be left on the target still.

Yeah, that is what I was thinking; it gives a ceiling that ensures that the damage from it is not ridiculous in group situations, but maintains the viability of using the skill.

It will never be viable so long as there is only one condition available. You can’t make a burn only based build unless you expect to be destroyed by any class with decent condition cure.

But having torch a condi weapon is a good start. The number 4 should stay the same(although they should fix it so I don’t get obstructed 50% of the time) and I agree with the suggestions above.

And if it was slightly viable it would be changed within a matter of days. That is one reason why I’m a bit hesitant about the new retaliation trait but I guess we’ll know more on Tuesday.

I think Arena Net should provide every class a set of tools that make them completely over the top in regards to damage or burst “but” at the cost of risk. With risk comes great reward but this wouldn’t be something that can be sustained.

And if you choose to go the other route and play it safe then it has its own set of cost or risks such has not being able to kill an ambient bunny but you can push your way through the ranks or zergs with ease.

Just doesn’t happen in this game.

The torch #5 skill always made me wonder wth is that, it’s magical flames yet the flames don’t do condition damage, it’s flames?!?!

Zepher.7803:

The torch #5 skill always made me wonder wth is that, it’s magical flames yet the flames don’t do condition damage, it’s flames?!?!

It must be the same flames used in the flamethrower.

Incendirax.3567:

1. A condition spec’ed guardian attacks an enemy target, and stacks ~15 seconds of burning on them using VoJ active, torch #4 skill and purging flames. Assuming no might stacks and the assumption above, this will deal 10,500 damage over the 15 second duration.

Which then gets cleansed by a single condi cleanse. In WvW, those happen all the time, in PvP everybody is equipped with at least one and in PvE it doesn’t matter.

Condition guardian will NEVER become a legit build unless guardians get a lot more on demand and reliable conditions.
This will never happen.

Well written topic but sadly undone by inherent profession design.

Aedrion.6483:

Which then gets cleansed by a single condi cleanse. In WvW, those happen all the time, in PvP everybody is equipped with at least one and in PvE it doesn’t matter.

Condition guardian will NEVER become a legit build unless guardians get a lot more on demand and reliable conditions.
This will never happen.

Well written topic but sadly undone by inherent profession design.

But here is what I was trying to get at; though i may have poorly expressed it. Yes, that 15 seconds of burning can easily be cleansed off. However, this new torch skill would allow us to get around that by dealing the damage upfront instead of leaving the burning on there only to get cleansed.