Guild Wars 2

I don’t think the guardian’s complete lack of mobility and chase/escape mechanics in WvW is fair.

Our best builds for 1v1s or small group play mostly use the one handed weapons and triple meditations which offer no swiftness, no gap makers and little no gap closers.

If we were vastly superior in combat and able to beat any other class it’d be understandable but at the moment we are nicely balanced against other classes in combat. However, almost all other classes have a plethora of mobility skills available to their main WvW builds and we have next to none.

Yes, out of combat you could swap in staff for a bit of swiftness but what about when you see that big blob coming towards your roaming squad (even worse if you’re in combat at the time!)? Every other class bar (perhaps) necro can easily escape in time while we are left behind to die. Fighting a thief/warrior/ranger/mesmer? Don’t expect any loot bags. As soon as you start to win they’ll casually skip away from you.

Anet have done a pretty good job of the guardian for spvp, pve and blobbing but we are currently THE WORST class for roaming/havok.

Idk I think Guardianss in combat mobility, especially in chasing, is pretty dang good.

Greatsword leap, sword blink and the teleport meditation that burns your foe already gives you better chasing than the average warrior.

Also you can target a bunny that is really far away to use your blink and meditation on if you are running from a zerg.

GS and Sword is not a good combo. Scepter/Mace is miles better and leaves you with nothing.

The argument that you can blink to bunnies is ridiculous because there’s huge sections of the maps with none to be seen. Furthermore, a class should not be relying on something so gimmicky for survivability.

Guardian desperately needs some better escape mechanics. Making judges intervention ground targeted might help a bit but better access to swiftness is also desperately required.

shadowraith.9124:

GS and Sword is not a good combo. Scepter/Mace is miles better and leaves you with nothing.

The argument that you can blink to bunnies is ridiculous because there’s huge sections of the maps with none to be seen. Furthermore, a class should not be relying on something so gimmicky for survivability.

Guardian desperately needs some better escape mechanics. Making judges intervention ground targeted might help a bit but better access to swiftness is also desperately required.

Sorry bud but if you want mobility in your weapon sets then you will have to make sacrifices. The tools for you are there. The problem is you don’t want to use them.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Greatsword leap, sword blink and the teleport meditation that burns your foe already gives you better chasing than the average warrior.

Also you can target a bunny that is really far away to use your blink and meditation on if you are running from a zerg.

no…. no no no no no. we have 3 gap closers, 1h sword #2, GS #3, and JI. none of these root your enemy, 1h sword #3 also leaves you trailing behind slightly due to the animation. In the triple med builds, anyone with swiftness is going to leave you behind easily. Warriors get 2 on GS (#3 and #5) 1h sword with #2, Bulls charge, and also a the elite signet which gives 30 seconds of swiftness, on top of a trait that makes any movement ability break immobilize, which is pretty much one of our only CC options, which warriors also have a LARGE amount of. Please, never ever compare guardian mobility to warrior mobility.

Also, we are the ONLY class that has to require critters to even try to escape, which is kind of lame, HOWEVER, we are also the class that is meant to get into fights and stay there (according to ANET) so in reality this isn’t an issue. The issue is our lack of ability to keep most classes near us due to a lack of CC.

shadowraith.9124:

GS and Sword is not a good combo. Scepter/Mace is miles better and leaves you with nothing.

…. Gs/sword is the standard meditation build… running mace in WvW and expecting it to be good outside of zergs is a huge mistake in the terms of knowing what weapon is meant for what. Scepter is extremely good for meditation builds as well, and does help keep damage on people from a range. Also as I stated to turbo, Guardians are meant to be a “get in and stay in” class, not an escape artist, so arguing for escape mechanics is rather moot. Arguing for CC is the general idea for guardians.

shadowraith.9124:

Our best builds for 1v1s or small group play mostly use the one handed weapons and triple meditations which offer no swiftness, no gap makers and little no gap closers.

Anet have done a pretty good job of the guardian for spvp, pve and blobbing but we are currently THE WORST class for roaming/havok.

As far as overall guardian mobility, you are doing the same thing I did a while back, only looked at gap closers and not the overall picture. Mobility is actually 3 things rolled together, Movement abilities (gap closers) movement speed (swiftness/signets) and snare removal. I have honestly found that running SY and Retreat with pure of voice and condition duration reduction runes/food has greatly increased my mobility compared to the standard triple med build. You keep snares off yourself, give yourself ton of swiftness, and also can still use the gap closers from sword/GS, or you can also try running hammer, which has a ton of CC, which helps as well.

seriously? guardian does have enough mobility.. u just dont want to use it.

if u dont want to equip the weapon/utility, then thats ur fault not anet

Guardian is great in almost all areas, who cares if it is inferior in some others. Learn to work with it, can’t expect to excel in every area…

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

To those saying we have the utilities for mobility, yes but taking those over mediations completely gimps you in combat. Other classes don’t need to make the same sacrifices.

Let’s say you take a shout build with a GS and sword. Any other roaming class of equal skill is going to beat you in a 1v1. Without AH and at least 5 people around you a shout build doesn’t have the same sustain as a meditations one, nor does it have the offensive burning capabilities.

We shouldn’t have to chose between mobility and winning battles.

BALA.1520:

seriously? guardian does have enough mobility.. u just dont want to use it.

if u dont want to equip the weapon/utility, then thats ur fault not anet

Hehe if you take these weapons and utilities you`ll ONLY be good in chasing, but suck in actual combat. The trade-off is too harse

Other classes do not have to make such a trade-off.

I havent run an AH+Shouts build in ages. Its a solid build for learning the class, but I run to much solo stuff for it to be practical for me. I use shouts b/c they have short CD’s (albeit thats after traiting for it), great buffs and syngerize well w/my build overall.

I could run a mediation build, but frankly I dont enjoy the playstyle and seems like the only reason to is for the condition cleanse aspect, which as a guardian you are never short of anyways. (Purity, SoR, SY, and a half dozen other options are all easily accessible to guardians).

Not to mention shouts are instant cast (which to get w/Mediations requires traiting so its a wash w/traiting for shorter CD’s on shouts imo). And I think we can all agree consecrations have some nice options, but their insanely long CD’s just arent worth it outside of specific situations.

While guardian mobility does require more effort than using a passive signet or similar ability (which is why I say Id love to have something like that, just b/c Im lazy and would love to switch to a signet when I just need to run halfway across a map instead of leaping my way across it lol) — what we get in exchange is the ability to use it to effectively deliver pain to our enemies. Other classes use a skill or ability for swiftness and get? swiftness. We use a skill or ability to get swiftness and we get? a big bag of pain to drop on their not-swift-enough toes.

Sandra Martino.3870:

BALA.1520:

seriously? guardian does have enough mobility.. u just dont want to use it.

if u dont want to equip the weapon/utility, then thats ur fault not anet

Hehe if you take these weapons and utilities you`ll ONLY be good in chasing, but suck in actual combat. The trade-off is too harse

Other classes do not have to make such a trade-off.

Im confused, which weapons are only good at chasing?

GS — #3 and #5, a gap closer and a pull. Plus Might on#1, and Ret. on #4

Hammer — Immobilize on #3, knockdown on #4, lockdown you opponent (or keep them away) on #5, plus an autoattack with Prot. on #1 and a blast finisher/aoe damage on #2

Staff — Swiftness on #3, Might and heals on #4, Unpassable wall on #5, AOE on #1 (which hits through walls), and another heal+dmg on #2

Mace — Nice skills, especially if traiting/equiped for heals but not a chase weapon so moving on…

Scepter — immobilize + vulnerability on #3, but also not really a weapon Id consider useful in a chase.

Sword — autoattack w/cone (so semi-aoe dmg) on #1, teleport on #2 plus a blind, and multiple blocks on #3

Im skipping offhand b/c none are really meant as part of a chase imo, so much as to augment the versatility of the 1h main-hand wpns that already offer chase options.

I’m indestructible, why in the world would I need to get away?

For real though, I don’t particularly find myself lacking speed/closers in fights – I don’t bother chasing thieves or warriors who book it (cause i’m not built for it). If you dont want to use the speed tools, and would rather say “guards aren’t fair cause MY weapons don’t do what I want”, I think you’ve found your problem

My experience is, that all those leaps and gapcloser dont get you anywhere, as soon as you start eating cripple and cc from more than one enemys. You just can’t have enough removal on you.
I am too very frustrated with chasing and options to run away.

Either you pack in your staff for speed and get laughed at when you get crippled.
Or you take your Weapon of choice and are kitet.

your only option ist to be so glassy Glasscanon, that your enemys dont get to hit their slow, invisible, 10.000 clones – buttons before they hit the dirt.
thats not something i like, when i choose a class that is about protection……….

Markus.7918:

My experience is, that all those leaps and gapcloser dont get you anywhere, as soon as you start eating cripple and cc from more than one enemys. You just can’t have enough removal on you.
I am too very frustrated with chasing and options to run away.

Either you pack in your staff for speed and get laughed at when you get crippled.
Or you take your Weapon of choice and are kitet.

your only option ist to be so glassy Glasscanon, that your enemys dont get to hit their slow, invisible, 10.000 clones – buttons before they hit the dirt.
thats not something i like, when i choose a class that is about protection……….

Agree 100% with everything here

WvWvW Public Service Announcement.

Please stop using the local critter population to escape or catch up to people on the battlefield. Here at PETA we have recently received a TEN FOLD increase in complaints by the local town people about this.

Markus.7918:

My experience is, that all those leaps and gapcloser dont get you anywhere, as soon as you start eating cripple and cc from more than one enemys. You just can’t have enough removal on you.
I am too very frustrated with chasing and options to run away.

Either you pack in your staff for speed and get laughed at when you get crippled.
Or you take your Weapon of choice and are kitet.

your only option ist to be so glassy Glasscanon, that your enemys dont get to hit their slow, invisible, 10.000 clones – buttons before they hit the dirt.
thats not something i like, when i choose a class that is about protection……….

In regards to chasing I dont see much of a problem using just about any weapon combo you have at least 1 if not more options w/almost any weapon set which will render being crippled moot. You can immobilize them, pull them, you can lock them in with you, knock them down, or teleport to them (teleport as I understand it is unaffected by cripple so apologies if I have this wrong). And thats just weapons, when we involve our abilities theres more teleports, plus cleanses, and other cond. removal options.

Running away is harder if you dont run any cond. removals, like I said, when youre a guardian its pretty easy to remove conditions like crippled whether its through food buffs, runes or abilities.

read the whole thread. you don’t can’t remove enough conditions against multiple enemys.
The point of this thread is, that guardians lack a working escape in those situations, copared to other classes.

Yes, let’s not use critters to escape zergs (because it’s a gimmick or something) and then complain that we have no escape options.

Show me the critters, when there are none……genius

Markus.7918:

read the whole thread. you don’t can’t remove enough conditions against multiple enemys.
The point of this thread is, that guardians lack a working escape in those situations, copared to other classes.

Condition removal options include:

Signet of Resolve
Smite condition
Cleansing flame
Ray of Judement
Purify/Purifying Blast (aquatic only)
Bow of truth
Purging flames
Purifying Ribbon (tome of courage)
Save Yourselves
Contemplation of Purity
Absolute Resolution (trait)
Inscribed Removal (trait)
Purity (trait)
Pure of Voice (trait)

Plus runes like Soldier (remove 1/shout) and Lyssa (cure all when using elite), and foods which can reduce duration or even outright remove conditions… Not to mention combo fields like GS #4 + #2.

So out of the 50 or so condition removing abilities and skills in the game, Guardians have 15 of them. Add in food and gear choices for condition removal and I have a hard time seeing the problem removing conditions…

Markus.7918:

read the whole thread. you don’t can’t remove enough conditions against multiple enemys.
The point of this thread is, that guardians lack a working escape in those situations, copared to other classes.

Hate to break it to you but if you have multiple enemies withen range to spam conditions at you your not geting away if your class isnt a thief (or a very good mesmer with CD’s up) I used to often run my warrior as GS and S/Wh traited, thats about the maximum mobility you can possibly get. If I didnt turn and run before a blob got in range to put me in combat chances were I was not escapeing unless there was a fort very close. The only viable escape mechinisms for the situation you discribe are ways to make your opponants lose track of you, more leaps and swiftness wont fix that for you, only stealth will which the majority of classes dont have ready access to.

Don’t tell me that Merendel. lol…..
I don’t think that i would get away like that.
Tell that to the guys who suggest to use critters as teleport targets and list up 20 teleport and condition-removal skills as if you could equip all of them in your skillbar. I really lost faith in humanity when i saw this.

ya sorry markus reread thread and realized you were actually on the opposite side of the argument than I thought when I replied to you… oops.

Still the point is valid, additional mobility does not really alow you to escape from a situation that turns sour unless you have significantly more mobility than your foes have, enough to counter any slowing they can throw at you on you on top of countering their mobility. “Quit runin, you’ll only die tired” comes to mind

Markus.7918:

Show me the critters, when there are none……genius

I kind of make it a point to know where my escape routes are in WvW and that means knowing which direction to run to find mobs. Learn the map. Yes, there will be times when there is nothing around to port to, but that is the exception not the rule in WvW.

^ true genius

I heard in your world the whole map is plucked with mobs, must be pretty convenient….
Can you tell me your Server, then i will transfer.

Like Forty Seven Ninjas.6982:

I’m indestructible, why in the world would I need to get away?

Bump. If you aren’t building within the parameters of the class, you won’t be happy. If Guardian mobility sucks, people should stop trying to make it better and play to the class strengths.

I doubt any person is going to have a plausible argument that convince the devs that their fundamental concept for a profession is ‘wrong’ and give them the solution to fix it.

I think if people did that, they would find our sub par mobility is actually keeping us from getting beat around with the nerf bat.

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

What exactly are you guys planning on doing to that mesmer when you catch him? Give him a hard stare and hope he falls over laughing long enough for you to kill him?

To the OP the problems you are having isn’t mobility, it’s that guardian is the worst class for CC. We are a class that’s designed to get into a fight, and then hope like hell the other people in the fight don’t decide to run. If they do, well that’s it. If they stay you can win if you are more skilled, unless it’s some of the more broken specs out right now (no worries they are getting nerfed)

I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians, better cc, better escapes, but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Markus.7918:

I heard in your world the whole map is plucked with mobs, must be pretty convenient….
Can you tell me your Server, then i will transfer.

You do realize that teleports are usable even when you are out of range (as long as you have target), right? Just press CTRL to highlight any critters nearby.

You can also teleport to the other side of the zerg (which is usually focused on something else) and run away while you drop the Line/Ring of Warding.

actually none class except good thief, or mesmer could run away from the zerg which would be such stupid to chase them…..
actually when I am wandering on WvW alone/in very small group – if we will spot zerg in fight with we cannot fight we just don’t engage, don’t let them see us, and retreat in direction opsite to their target.
and from mine experience no good zerg will chase 2-3 players, when they are going for something else….

Lord Trejgon.2809:

actually none class except good thief, or mesmer could run away from the zerg which would be such stupid to chase them…..
actually when I am wandering on WvW alone/in very small group – if we will spot zerg in fight with we cannot fight we just don’t engage, don’t let them see us, and retreat in direction opsite to their target.
and from mine experience no good zerg will chase 2-3 players, when they are going for something else….

This, pretty much. Although I’d say thieves and eles are the only ones who can run away without dedicating utilities and traits to mobility (mesmers need Blink and probably some stealth utility and unless they have runes for it, they have little to no swiftness). If you roam alone or in a small group then you need to be aware of your surroundings, if the zerg is within attack distance (say 1200) then your best hope is to run in a direction that would mean the zerg needs to follow you – this will usually at the very least mean only portion of the zerg goes after you (especially if you’re solo roaming) which increases your chances of getting away.

Guardians have actually got quite good mobility compared to some classes, e.g. necros can barely run away from a snail on Valium.

Rainu.6871:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

actually none class except good thief, or mesmer could run away from the zerg which would be such stupid to chase them…..
actually when I am wandering on WvW alone/in very small group – if we will spot zerg in fight with we cannot fight we just don’t engage, don’t let them see us, and retreat in direction opsite to their target.
and from mine experience no good zerg will chase 2-3 players, when they are going for something else….

This, pretty much. Although I’d say thieves and eles are the only ones who can run away without dedicating utilities and traits to mobility (mesmers need Blink and probably some stealth utility and unless they have runes for it, they have little to no swiftness). If you roam alone or in a small group then you need to be aware of your surroundings, if the zerg is within attack distance (say 1200) then your best hope is to run in a direction that would mean the zerg needs to follow you – this will usually at the very least mean only portion of the zerg goes after you (especially if you’re solo roaming) which increases your chances of getting away.

Guardians have actually got quite good mobility compared to some classes, e.g. necros can barely run away from a snail on Valium.

I would say that necros have better mobility than you are giving them credit for. They have a passive movement speed increase on a signet. They also have a long duration swiftness with a teleport ability that doesn’t have to target a minion. They have more but you can see the point.

I’m not saying guardians are horrible, but I think you are wrong about necros mobility. They do have good mobility. They also have a teleport, a pull, etc similar to guardians.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

This, pretty much. Although I’d say thieves and eles are the only ones who can run away without dedicating utilities and traits to mobility (mesmers need Blink and probably some stealth utility and unless they have runes for it, they have little to no swiftness). If you roam alone or in a small group then you need to be aware of your surroundings, if the zerg is within attack distance (say 1200) then your best hope is to run in a direction that would mean the zerg needs to follow you – this will usually at the very least mean only portion of the zerg goes after you (especially if you’re solo roaming) which increases your chances of getting away.

Guardians have actually got quite good mobility compared to some classes, e.g. necros can barely run away from a snail on Valium.

I would say that necros have better mobility than you are giving them credit for. They have a passive movement speed increase on a signet. They also have a long duration swiftness with a teleport ability that doesn’t have to target a minion. They have more but you can see the point.

I’m not saying guardians are horrible, but I think you are wrong about necros mobility. They do have good mobility. They also have a teleport, a pull, etc similar to guardians.[/quote]

Yeah, I was over exaggerating a bit Although it’s really only Spectral walk that is used by any necros, both Flesh wurm and the signet are skills that are never taken unless it’s purely to build for mobility and all classes have good mobility if they build purely for it. (I would however still say necros have the worst mobility in the game and Anet have even said that this is by design since they want necros to be a class that can’t chase but can prevent you from running away.)

You want something that’s unfair…

kittenING thieves not de-stealthing on Block.

THAT is kittenING UNFAIR.

Anet, get your head out of your kittening kitten .

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

They have a passive movement speed increase on a signet. They also have a long duration swiftness with a teleport ability that doesn’t have to target a minion.

The Signet of Locust isnt used, because the increased movement speed is the only thing it is good for and you wont sacrifice one utility slot just for that.

The Spectral Walk is usually used up for the swiftness when moving from place to place and is on cooldown when you need the stunbreak/teleport.
The teleport is also hard to use as a escape tool, because it ports you back where you started (often towards enemy zerg instead of away from them). Not saying it is a bad ability, but its not great one either.

Amins.3710:

You want something that’s unfair…

kittenING thieves not de-stealthing on Block.

THAT is kittenING UNFAIR.

Anet, get your head out of your kittening kitten .

I’ve been saying this for awhile now. Or how about if you block a move that has a blind effect on it, you still get blinded even though the move was negated….figure that kitten out.

Setun.4368:

Or how about if you block a move that has a blind effect on it, you still get blinded even though the move was negated….figure that kitten out.

Might add that to the bug list… is that against specific blind skills or a general issue? Often blindness is a secondary AoE effect triggered from the player after the skill lands… but it definitely would make sense for that secondary effect not to fire on a block.

I generally have more than enough mobility to escape if I need to, though it is possible to be caught either if there are too many of them or if they are all thieves, which is unlikely.

What I normally use to escape foes in WvW, generally in EB:

Sword Tele: godsend this skill, you just need to know what to target, deer, walls, dem bunnies, a far off enemy. Also good for scaling terrain if necessary, like hills that you might otherwise have to walk around to get up.

Greatsword leap: I honestly couldn’t live without my leaps always make sure auto targeting is off, that kitten can get you killed

Swiftness: 16 sec swiftness helps outpace or maintain distance in combat

Terrain knowledge and general devious trickery and magic:
- With my swiftness and otherwise augmented leap, I can go from Anza vista hill to the outer palisade of Overlook, very handy when chased by many pursuers.
- Same with leap I can get up to the harpy nests at Orgath, sometimes if I’m up there being attacked by 5, I drop down and start walking down the hill; they follow, I go back and leap up again, sorted
- Oakhearts; a free entangle for your erstwhile pursuers, easy to dodge or leap past as you are smart and know what’s coming, having tagged the thing in the first place
- 2 stability sources, Virtue of Courage and SYG, renewed focus ofc supplementing the first

If you know what you’re doing you can handle yourself in most situations dat said did you know that thieves have a trebuchet range shadow step? :O I mean, talk about imba

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ’easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange -- speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail - pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him -- whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

... what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians... but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Not completely true.

Warriors have worse sustain than guardians. They do have better CC and slightly better escapes due to being less tanky than guardians and they only bring most offensive boons which a guardian lacks. FGJ + banners is pretty solid on the offense side.

My only suggestion to the OP is to understand the limitations to the class and realize guardians are in a great place right now outside of bugs and useless traits that every class has. Mobility is your weakness and you have some area denial and light CC but you make up for it with being able to survive quite a bit of everything.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

… what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians… but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Not completely true.

Warriors have worse sustain than guardians. They do have better CC and slightly better escapes due to being less tanky than guardians and they only bring most offensive boons which a guardian lacks. FGJ + banners is pretty solid on the offense side.

My only suggestion to the OP is to understand the limitations to the class and realize guardians are in a great place right now outside of bugs and useless traits that every class has. Mobility is your weakness and you have some area denial and light CC but you make up for it with being able to survive quite a bit of everything.

Warrior sustain is fine now. The problem w/ 90% of the people who play the class think that +healing is the worst stat ever… the other 10%, IE the KNOWLEDABLE ONES, have 550-750 healing built in somewhere and run Signet + 4 Dwayna runes.

They get a regen proc and they’re sitting at over 650+ healing per second. Add in a shout and some Omnom + Sigil of Blood and they’re doing JUST fine.

But again, that’s only 10% of the playerbase who understands sustain.

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ’easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange -- speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail - pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him -- whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

... what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians... but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Not completely true.

Warriors have worse sustain than guardians. They do have better CC and slightly better escapes due to being less tanky than guardians and they only bring most offensive boons which a guardian lacks. FGJ + banners is pretty solid on the offense side.

My only suggestion to the OP is to understand the limitations to the class and realize guardians are in a great place right now outside of bugs and useless traits that every class has. Mobility is your weakness and you have some area denial and light CC but you make up for it with being able to survive quite a bit of everything.

Warrior sustain is fine now. The problem w/ 90% of the people who play the class think that +healing is the worst stat ever... the other 10%, IE the KNOWLEDABLE ONES, have 550-750 healing built in somewhere and run Signet + 4 Dwayna runes.

They get a regen proc and they’re sitting at over 650+ healing per second. Add in a shout and some Omnom + Sigil of Blood and they’re doing JUST fine.

But again, that’s only 10% of the playerbase who understands sustain.

So let me confirm. You think that a 5% proc rate on dwayna is worth it? Even if we add that to healing signet + omnomberry pies + sigil of blood + Adrenal Health, is that good enough sustain at a cost to our dps output? Without protection or some form of active damage mitigation, a measly <1000 HP/s isn’t going to keep warriors alive. If warrior had protection + regen then we might see some differences. A build referring to the information you gave me would require a decent crit chance, investment in to cleric/magi gear and rest berserker to maintain a semi effective output of damage. Regardless, until warriors get some form of damage mitigation, sustain on a warrior is not as effective in comparison to a guardian. Now if you are referring to bunker warriors well then you probably got that right except they hit like wet noodles. A guardian can gear offensively but trait defensively and see some pretty good results.

Bottom line, even if we had 1000 HP/s + 2k shout heals, we would still need to rely on another class to kill for us since we have moved away from dps to a poor tank/bunker support class which is bad at support anyway. Warriors complain they need protection to reach the same potential of guardians and I believe they shouldn’t homogenize the class by adding this boon so the playstyles can still be different. Active CC in the form of dazes or more smaller blocks is the key for warrior’s mitigation.

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

… what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians… but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Not completely true.

Warriors have worse sustain than guardians. They do have better CC and slightly better escapes due to being less tanky than guardians and they only bring most offensive boons which a guardian lacks. FGJ + banners is pretty solid on the offense side.

My only suggestion to the OP is to understand the limitations to the class and realize guardians are in a great place right now outside of bugs and useless traits that every class has. Mobility is your weakness and you have some area denial and light CC but you make up for it with being able to survive quite a bit of everything.

Warrior sustain is fine now. The problem w/ 90% of the people who play the class think that +healing is the worst stat ever… the other 10%, IE the KNOWLEDABLE ONES, have 550-750 healing built in somewhere and run Signet + 4 Dwayna runes.

They get a regen proc and they’re sitting at over 650+ healing per second. Add in a shout and some Omnom + Sigil of Blood and they’re doing JUST fine.

But again, that’s only 10% of the playerbase who understands sustain.

So let me confirm. You think that a 5% proc rate on dwayna is worth it? Even if we add that to healing signet + omnomberry pies + sigil of blood + Adrenal Health, is that good enough sustain at a cost to our dps output? Without protection or some form of active damage mitigation, a measly <1000 HP/s isn’t going to keep warriors alive. If warrior had protection + regen then we might see some differences. A build referring to the information you gave me would require a decent crit chance, investment in to cleric/magi gear and rest berserker to maintain a semi effective output of damage. Regardless, until warriors get some form of damage mitigation, sustain on a warrior is not as effective in comparison to a guardian. Now if you are referring to bunker warriors well then you probably got that right except they hit like wet noodles. A guardian can gear offensively but trait defensively and see some pretty good results.

Bottom line, even if we had 1000 HP/s + 2k shout heals, we would still need to rely on another class to kill for us since we have moved away from dps to a poor tank/bunker support class which is bad at support anyway. Warriors complain they need protection to reach the same potential of guardians and I believe they shouldn’t homogenize the class by adding this boon so the playstyles can still be different. Active CC in the form of dazes or more smaller blocks is the key for warrior’s mitigation.

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.

Solid Argument right there.

It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.

Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.

Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

… what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians… but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Not completely true.

Warriors have worse sustain than guardians. They do have better CC and slightly better escapes due to being less tanky than guardians and they only bring most offensive boons which a guardian lacks. FGJ + banners is pretty solid on the offense side.

My only suggestion to the OP is to understand the limitations to the class and realize guardians are in a great place right now outside of bugs and useless traits that every class has. Mobility is your weakness and you have some area denial and light CC but you make up for it with being able to survive quite a bit of everything.

Warrior sustain is fine now. The problem w/ 90% of the people who play the class think that +healing is the worst stat ever… the other 10%, IE the KNOWLEDABLE ONES, have 550-750 healing built in somewhere and run Signet + 4 Dwayna runes.

They get a regen proc and they’re sitting at over 650+ healing per second. Add in a shout and some Omnom + Sigil of Blood and they’re doing JUST fine.

But again, that’s only 10% of the playerbase who understands sustain.

Yeah, warrior sustain is really quite good. I crafted up a warrior with 1K healing and my passive sustain in a 1v1 or 1v2 is better than the guardian’s sustain which is more active (cooldowns required). However, my guardian can protect myself from focused burst much better than the warrior can due to invuln, block, and more access to burst healing.

TLDR: From my personal experience, warrior sustain is just as good as or is better than guardian for 1v2s and 1v1s but guardian sustain is better in 1v3s or when taking heavy focus.

Of course, the benefit of the warrior condition sustain build over the guardian sustain build is that the warrior is far more deadly.

I’ve 1v1d or 1v2d around 8 guardians so far and none of them have even come close to killing me on my warrior. Of course, they might have been horrible. Dunno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH2Qf3dNtAk

These are literally my first fights with a warrior in over a year (played warrior very little in beta). The passive healing gives incredible sustain in small scale fights.

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.

Solid Argument right there.

It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.

Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.

Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.

So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.

Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.

I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.

My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.

I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

What exactly are you guys planning on doing to that mesmer when you catch him? Give him a hard stare and hope he falls over laughing long enough for you to kill him?

To the OP the problems you are having isn’t mobility, it’s that guardian is the worst class for CC. We are a class that’s designed to get into a fight, and then hope like hell the other people in the fight don’t decide to run. If they do, well that’s it. If they stay you can win if you are more skilled, unless it’s some of the more broken specs out right now (no worries they are getting nerfed)

I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians, better cc, better escapes, but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Warriors have a higher HP pool… they do NOT have better healing sustain. Also, a guardian can actually run directly into a zerg and has access to 2 invulns (shelter and renewed focus) without gimping his dps. A warrior traited for healing shouts gets kitten pretty hard and its why most don’t run it, whereas a guardian can build viably to have every utility skill heal him/her. Not saying guardian is better, but seriously the grass is always greener.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.

Solid Argument right there.

It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.

Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.

Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.

So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.

Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.

I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.

My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.

I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Enjoy being that 90%.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.

Solid Argument right there.

It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.

Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.

Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.

So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.

Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.

I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.

My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.

I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.

To be fair, Chris’s build relies almost exclusively on retaliation. all you have to do is choose not to fight him and its an auto draw. Condition warriors can have decent sustain, which honestly ends up about the same as bunker guards, the issue is that while the meta is conditions and everyone is running over the top condition removal to counter it, retaliation has no true counter, other then not hitting people.

guardians can infinity loop their greatsword #3. best mobility in the game. Just learn how to do it and run like a mother fker out of combat

Bash.7291:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Amins.3710:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Bottom line: Sustain is worth nothing without mitigation.

And because a Bunker Guardian can really kill so much more effectively than a Bunker Warrior.

Solid Argument right there.

It’s called “Bunker” for a reason. Every class can trait one way and gear another.

Now you’re just spit’n out some ridiculous stuff.

Maybe the issue is you’re part of the 90%.

So you’re telling me that Chris’s healway build is not a bunker build and that’s why he can kill 1vX. Never have I seen a warrior video of yours. Walk on the other side of the line first and tell me how warriors are.

Guardians also have access to burning damage which procs every 5 attacks. Traits that procs burning and heavy mitigation of damage which helps their EHP go up dramatically. Blinds, Aegis, Blocks, Virtues, protection, access to nearly perma vigor, heal on dodge, the list goes on. You tell me who can bunker better.

I’m the 90% of the warriors that know that bunkering won’t do anything but delay the inevitable. I’m not some buffbot that has to carry banners around and provide little to no damage for the team and lie to myself that I’m making a great contribution. No burst healing, no crazy boon uptime on protection, might, swiftness, stability, or retaliation. Sure, warriors have some more sustain now but it doesn’t mean jack if you can’t reduce damage taken. Warriors are kill or be killed. That doesn’t mean they are 100derp builds.

My opinion is you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve played a warrior. Bunker wise, guardian wins hands down vs a bunker warrior. I’ve spent quite a bit of time and money on this game trying different builds, gear layouts, read a lot of forum posts on Bash, Brutaly, Chris, Obtena, TehSanny, Matale and many more which I always look closely at and bounce ideas off of.

I like to think I have a little idea of what I am talking about but I respect it’s your opinion.

To be fair, Chris’s build relies almost exclusively on retaliation. all you have to do is choose not to fight him and its an auto draw. Condition warriors can have decent sustain, which honestly ends up about the same as bunker guards, the issue is that while the meta is conditions and everyone is running over the top condition removal to counter it, retaliation has no true counter, other then not hitting people.

That’s true and I failed to mention that. Warriors do lack retaliation. We have a trait that we get at 30 Defense called Spiked Armor but it’s 5 seconds on a 15 cd. Without Quick Breathing + Warhorn we don’t have much else to go for. I agree after watching Oozo’s video and it’s something I am taking great interest in researching to see how I can effectively create a condition bunker warrior. I just wish S+S/LB had more access to different conditions besides burning, bleeding, and torment or rather quick sources to keep the pressure to heavy condition cleansing classes.

How do you even attempt to kill a Healway guardian? They cleanse conditions, they carry protection, retal, and regen for direct damage dealers. You’d have to go GC and hope to hit him when his boons are down or kite him but he has such high uptime on boons which makes it extremely difficult. This is from a warrior’s perspective of course. I am sure it’s a different story with a necro or mesmer.

Bhima.9518:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

madgod.7421:

I would love to see an ‘easier’ form of mobility for guardians (maybe a signet w/25% inc. speed like other classes get).

That said, Im fine not having it simply because of what we get in exchange — speed plus great gap closers. I run Retreat/SYG/SY with soldier runes. 2 out of those 3 give me swiftness, and every time I use them I cleanse conditions. If I need to bail – pop retreat, instant swiftness, plus aegis to cover my skritten on the way out the door.

Need to catch a mesmer on the run? Pop retreat/SY then blink/leap to him — whats more, with the right setup that blink/leap will not only stack burning, but also blind and vulnerability on him, not mention giving me a few stacks of might while instantly increasing my damage against him by a good 30%

We were design to stand, fight and if necessary, hunt down and finish what they start. We are strong, we are fast, we are Guardians!

What exactly are you guys planning on doing to that mesmer when you catch him? Give him a hard stare and hope he falls over laughing long enough for you to kill him?

To the OP the problems you are having isn’t mobility, it’s that guardian is the worst class for CC. We are a class that’s designed to get into a fight, and then hope like hell the other people in the fight don’t decide to run. If they do, well that’s it. If they stay you can win if you are more skilled, unless it’s some of the more broken specs out right now (no worries they are getting nerfed)

I know you probably don’t want to hear this, but what you are saying you want to play is a warrior. To give you an idea of the class they have better sustain than guardians, better cc, better escapes, but they don’t really bring as many group buffs as a guardian if they are speced that way.

Warriors have a higher HP pool… they do NOT have better healing sustain. Also, a guardian can actually run directly into a zerg and has access to 2 invulns (shelter and renewed focus) without gimping his dps. A warrior traited for healing shouts gets kitten pretty hard and its why most don’t run it, whereas a guardian can build viably to have every utility skill heal him/her. Not saying guardian is better, but seriously the grass is always greener.

Yes they do. I’ve posted the numbers in another thread, and I will psot them here again.

Actually I compared it against two of the guardians healing points. If you want I can compare adrenal health + signet passive with 3 from the guardian.

Shall we then assume 0 healing power for both, or is that not skewed enough for you? Maybe I should give the guardian 1000 healing power. That might help I suppose. So Guardian with 1000 healing power vs warrior with no healing power.

Passive regen from VoR with 1000 healing power 144 per second. AH with 1000 healing power is 79 per boon lets say 3 boons per second for 237, Signet of Resolve with 1000 hp heals for 9400/40 for 235 health per second. That brings the Guardian to 616 health per second.

Now a warrior with just healing signet and adrenal (I know you probably don’t want me to count that either, anything to skew the results though right) gives 392 and adrenal health gives 360 yes I’m going to assume full adrenaline. If you want me to rework it even more in your favor I will. 360/3 = 120. 120 + 392 = 512. Now we are ignoring that you have to have at least 150 healing power to even get it.

This means a guardian with 1000 healing power using their heal + getting passive from VoR + a constant 3 boons per second from AH heals for 104 more per second than a Warrior that is…doing nothing.

Now I know what you are thinking. You are thinking this still isn’t fair, I should have calculated this with the Guardian having 5000 healing power, and the warrior with 0 healing power and poisoned. Maybe next time.

In the mean time check my math, I haven’t slept in 3 days so It’s possible I’m off on something.

As far as I’m aware my math is correct, though I would like for someone to double check them.